Top 10 Reassons Jesus is not God

Muffled said:

I believe it has been a log time since I reviewed the physics of maesuring the speed of light but I believe it is done by the affect that the light makes. It is the same with God He is measured by the affect that He makes. We had a speaker recently who said he was taking drugs that would eventually kill him and he had no power within himself to stop but after receiving Jesus as Lord, He stopped taking the drugs. The power of God was at work and the affect was freedom from addiction.

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Well, the same thing happened to my ex-atheist now turned Muslim friend. He was terribly addicted with alkohol and stuff, and now, allegedely, Allah worked in such a way to relieve him from all these addictions. He lives happily with his family and he has been clean for more that five years.

Ergo, Allah exists. Correct?

Ciao

- viole

viole said:

Well, the same thing happened to my ex-atheist now turned Muslim friend. He was terribly addicted with alkohol and stuff, and now, allegedely, Allah worked in such a way to relieve him from all these addictions. He lives happily with his family and he has been clean for more that five years.

Ergo, Allah exists. Correct?

Ciao

- viole

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I believe that is correct. God isn't going to stop helping people just because their theology isn't correct.

Muffled said:

The person in the video claims that Jesus never claimed divintiy. I believe that is false. He equated Himself with Goid by saying "I and my Father are one."

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Of course, Jesus can be god!

...if Christianity was a polytheistic religion.

Before Jesus, many religions outside of Judaea or Israel/Judah, believed that heroes and great rulers were "deitified" by the people or by the priests. It is nothing new or original.

In Egypt, the pharaohs were not only rulers of the land, but were the "Living Horus". Horus was the sky god with hawk head.

When they died during the Old Kingdom period, they joined the sun god Ra, as one of the crew on the sun boat, or during middle and new kingdoms as Osiris, god of the dead (also known as the "Dead Horus").

Many of the Greek mortal heroes, like Heracles and Achilles became minor gods.

The Sumerian-Babylonian Gilgamesh was also worshipped as a god, especially in Uruk. In China and Japan, mortals can become not only folk heroes, but deities.

More recent to Jesus' time, Julius Caesar and Augustus were deitified later.

Equating Jesus with God is nothing unique but definitely very foreign to Judaism. But then again, Christianity was never a Jewish religion; it was pretty much a foreign religion.

You won't get any argument from me, muffled, that many Christians believed that Jesus = God. Not that I believed that their views (including yours) are credible. But the choice in your belief is indeed yours to make.

savagewind said:

For I did not speak on my own, but the Father who sent me commanded me to say all that I have spoken.John 12:49
Deuteronomy 18:18
I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their fellow Israelites, and I will put my words in his mouth. He will tell them everything I command him.

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So what!

Do you really think, this new prophet was Jesus?

I believed that this new prophet was Joshua, Moses' successor, because he was standing among the "fellow-Israelites".

Deuteronomy 34:9 said:

9 Joshua son of Nun was full of the spirit of wisdom, because Moses had laid his hands on him; and the Israelites obeyed him, doing as the Lord had commanded Moses.

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But it could also be any other number of prophets before Jesus, who were given the words, or being the mouthpiece of God. Another prophet that come to mind was Jeremiah:

Jeremiah 1:4-10 said:

4 Now the word of the Lord came to me saying,

5 “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you,
and before you were born I consecrated you;
I appointed you a prophet to the nations.”

6 Then I said, “Ah, Lord God! Truly I do not know how to speak, for I am only a boy.” 7 But the Lordsaid to me,

“Do not say, ‘I am only a boy’;
for you shall go to all to whom I send you,
and you shall speak whatever I command you.
8 Do not be afraid of them,
for I am with you to deliver you,
says the Lord.”

9 Then the Lord put out his hand and touched my mouth; and the Lord said to me,

“Now I have put my words in your mouth.
10 See, today I appoint you over nations and over kingdoms,
to pluck up and to pull down,
to destroy and to overthrow,
to build and to plant.”

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I don't think Deuteronomy18 mean Jesus at all.

gnostic said:

So what!

Do you really think, this new prophet was Jesus?

I believed that this new prophet was Joshua, Moses' successor, because he was standing among the "fellow-Israelites".



But it could also be any other number of prophets before Jesus, who were given the words, or being the mouthpiece of God. Another prophet that come to mind was Jeremiah:


I don't think Deuteronomy18 mean Jesus at all.

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I do not know that the prophet that was promised to be raised up was Jesus but he fits the bill, I think.

savagewind said:

I do not know that the prophet that was promised to be raised up was Jesus but he fits the bill, I think.

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Except that Jesus wasn't "among the Israelites", standing before Moses. Joshua was.

Joshua did lead the Israelites, like Moses...but more importantly, Joshua fulfilled the covenant when he led the Israelites across the Jordan, into Canaan, a journey started by Moses in Egypt.

Joshua did follow the law (Torah), as Moses did.

These are the reasons I think the new prophet was Joshua.

gnostic said:

Except that Jesus wasn't "among the Israelites", standing before Moses. Joshua was.

Joshua did lead the Israelites, like Moses...but more importantly, Joshua fulfilled the covenant when he led the Israelites across the Jordan, into Canaan, a journey started by Moses in Egypt.

Joshua did follow the law (Torah), as Moses did.

These are the reasons I think the new prophet was Joshua.

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Christians believe Jesus was present with the Israelites.

savagewind said:

Christians believe Jesus was present with the Israelites.

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That's pure assumption...and apologetic wishful thinking.

You can believe whatever you like, but what you believe, doesn't make it true.

gnostic said:

That's pure assumption...and apologetic wishful thinking.

You can believe whatever you like, but what you believe, doesn't make it true.

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And what you believe doesn't make it true too.

Was God's purpose to fulfill all the promises of God always with the Israelites in your opinion?

savagewind said:

And what you believe doesn't make it true too.

Was God's purpose to fulfill all the promises of God always with the Israelites in your opinion?

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Sorry, but I wasn't the one who made the baseless claim that Jesus was standing before Moses among the other Israelites, in Deuteronomy 18:18.

You are the one who is trying to squeeze Jesus into Deuteronomy 18:18 as if Jesus was Moses' contemporary.

Have you even bother to read the rest of Deuteronomy 18?

The first topic of Deuteronomy 18, is about the Levites. The Levites won't get any share of the land promised to Jacob like the other Israelite tribes WHEN THEY ENTER CANAAN ("they" as in Moses' contemporaries, Israelites, or KJV's "brethren"), but they will get special privileges of the Levite priesthood (18:1-8).

The next several topics are not follow any Canaanite religious practice - occult, which included witchcraft, sorcery, medium, divination and sacrificing children (18:9-11) - WHEN THEY ENTER CANAAN.

Now, if 18:1-8 and 18:9-13 are about what the Israelites should or shouldn't do WHEN THEY ENTER CANAAN, then it is very logical and within context of the whole chapter that when Deuteronomy 18:14-22 speak about the "new prophet", it is again talking about a prophet who will lead them into Canaan, just as Moses had led them out of Egypt.

What I am saying about the new prophet make more sense that this prophet is Joshua, if you read 18:8 WITH THE REST OF CHAPTER. The verses 18:14-22 is about who among Moses' presence will be nominated as this new prophet.

Sure, you can selectively ignore the whole chapter, and only read 18:8, and then choose any prophet in the bible, but you won't be reading in context of the whole Deuteronomy 18. And that only show me you can't read the whole chapter without twisting what was written in a single verse. This only show your poor scholarship and your biases when reading the bible.

Deuteronomy 18 is about what should or shouldn't happen when they enter the land of Canaan, including the new prophet being appointed to complete the other covenant since Moses leading his people from the land of Egypt.

You are simply making thing up, savagewind...or twisting a single verse to fit your propaganda.

Muffled said:

The person in the video claims that Jesus never claimed divintiy. I believe that is false. He equated Himself with Goid by saying "I and my Father are one."

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I and my wife are one. I know that what ever decision she makes it will be in complete harmony with what I myself would do given the same situation.

And so my wife can correctly tell others that she and I are one.

Muffled said:

1. God can't be born.

I believe this is false. There is nothing in any text that says God can't be born. It is true that God has always existed as a spirit but a spirit can reside in a body and that is what the everlasting God has done in Jesus.

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if he is residing in someone/something,then he already exists. being born is the result of being first concieved through the combinatin of a sperm and an egg. Why would a fully mature, fully formed entity want to exit a human body through the birth canal of a woman???

Milton Platt said:

if he is residing in someone/something,then he already exists. being born is the result of being first concieved through the combinatin of a sperm and an egg. Why would a fully mature, fully formed entity want to exit a human body through the birth canal of a woman???

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I believe it was done to fulfill prophecy that God would be born of a virgin and that the prophecy exists to authenticate that it is God being born.

Mountain_Climber said:

I and my wife are one. I know that what ever decision she makes it will be in complete harmony with what I myself would do given the same situation.

And so my wife can correctly tell others that she and I are one.

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I believe you and your wife are not one and never will be, unless you ae telling me you are twins but even then there is room for different spirits to see things differently. That is why we are called individuals.

gnostic said:

Of course, Jesus can be god!

...if Christianity was a polytheistic religion.

Before Jesus, many religions outside of Judaea or Israel/Judah, believed that heroes and great rulers were "deitified" by the people or by the priests. It is nothing new or original.

In Egypt, the pharaohs were not only rulers of the land, but were the "Living Horus". Horus was the sky god with hawk head.

When they died during the Old Kingdom period, they joined the sun god Ra, as one of the crew on the sun boat, or during middle and new kingdoms as Osiris, god of the dead (also known as the "Dead Horus").

Many of the Greek mortal heroes, like Heracles and Achilles became minor gods.

The Sumerian-Babylonian Gilgamesh was also worshipped as a god, especially in Uruk. In China and Japan, mortals can become not only folk heroes, but deities.

More recent to Jesus' time, Julius Caesar and Augustus were deitified later.

Equating Jesus with God is nothing unique but definitely very foreign to Judaism. But then again, Christianity was never a Jewish religion; it was pretty much a foreign religion.

You won't get any argument from me, muffled, that many Christians believed that Jesus = God. Not that I believed that their views (including yours) are credible. But the choice in your belief is indeed yours to make.

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I believe Jesus claiming to be one with God retains the monotheism of Judaism in Christianity.

I believe they would be hard pressed to claim anything but being gods and not God.

I have never seen anything like it anywhere else.

I believe having Jews as the first member of the church makes it a Jewish religion. Also we have the same God.

What are your rules for credibility/ I don't see any problem with credibility.

Muffled said:

I believe having Jews as the first member of the church makes it a Jewish religion. Also we have the same God.

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If Christianity was ever a Jewish religion, it ceased to be one before the end of the 1st century BCE.

But the foreign concept existed even earlier than that, because Judaism was never about man being "god", and the concept of resurrection was also foreign, but both were common practices or teachings from Egyptian and Greek religions, which clearly influenced Christian ideals.

gnostic said:

If Christianity was ever a Jewish religion, it ceased to be one before the end of the 1st century BCE.

But the foreign concept existed even earlier than that, because Judaism was never about man being "god", and the concept of resurrection was also foreign, but both were common practices or teachings from Egyptian and Greek religions, which clearly influenced Christian ideals.

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I believe having the OT in the Bible keeps it as a Jewish religion. And there are Messianic Jews even today.

I don't believe I know of what concept you are referring.

I don't believe Christianity is about that either exactly. I believe it is about man being n harmony with God's will and Judaism is also.

I believe this is patently false.

I believe commonality does not prove that the source is the same.

I believe there can't be anything clear about something that so completely lacks evidence.

#8 (#3in video) Calling Jesus son of God does not make Him God.

I agree but it also does not prove that He isn't God.

#9 (#2 in video) God can't change.

I believe there is no change of God in Jesus. He did not change.

# 10 (#1 in the video) Jesus would have said worship me.

I believe this is the null hypothesis. It must be shown that it was necesary for Jesus to say this. I believe it was not necessary because Jews already knew that God required worship.

The second reason is not because Jesus isn't God but because the body isn't God so Jesus wants to make sure no-one will get confused and worship the creation instead of the creator by pointing worship back to the Spirit of God as represented in the Father.