The Law

Mountain_Climber · Aug 16, 2015

At Romans 5:12 Paul rather plainly spoke, saying, "through one man sin entered the world", rather than saying, that sin entered into man's individual bodies.

The most appropriate understanding of Paul's words there at Romans 5:12 is, "Wherefore, as by one man's sin, sin entered into the world, and death by [that] sin; and so death passed upon all men, for [the reason] that [because of that one man's sin] all have sinned:"

That understanding correlates to Romans 5:17 saying, "by one man's offense death reigned by one ..."

Some, whether intentionally or unintentionally, have turned this into a petty word game so as to hide Paul's point from men. They have done this by assuming Paul was teaching that Adam's one sin is what directly made the rest of us sinners And so it is only fitting that we should ask, 'Did Paul believe that Adam's sin directly made us sinners in his loins, long before we were ever born?'

Jesus clearly taught that we are not a servant of sin until we choose to sin and follow through with the act of sinning: John 8:34 "Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin."

Like Jesus, Paul believed and taught that same thing, "Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?" Romans 6:16

So both Jesus and Paul indicate to us that it is our choice of conduct that makes us slaves to sin and that if we reject that conduct we are not then slaves to sin. Thus we can reasonably conclude, from both the words of Jesus and of Paul, that we are not born as slaves of sin, else it would not be true that we can choose not to be slaves to sin through our choice of conduct.

So then, what is the illusion which has held many into deception concerning this very simple to understand speech by both Jesus and Paul? That illusion is caused of not understanding that Paul merely spoke of Adam' s sin being the cause of it all, for if Adam had not sinned then sin would not have come to be in the world where it could influence us and trick our minds and hearts into becoming it's slave. Thus, regardless of that being how sin did it, it yet remains true that death was spread to us all as a consequence of that one man's sin.

And thus at Romans 5:17-19 Paul is merely telling us that, just as our having walked in the first Adam's footsteps was death to us, walking in the footsteps of Jesus Christ much more means life to us. And why "much more"? Because Adam did not have the power to deliver permanent death to us, as God's goodness and grace prevented him. But in Jesus Christ the life which is imparted to us as we follow in his steps is life that will be everlasting.

Now you can review my previous posts on Romans chapters 6 and 7 and hopefully better relate to what is said.

Amidst the confusion caused of the many who have misrepresented this matter to us, "He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still." Revelation 22:11

Once we have managed to see through their great delusion let us not return to it.

1 John 2:29 "If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him."

1 John 3:7 "Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous."

Latuwr · Aug 19, 2015

Hi Mountain Climber,

Blessings to you through Messsiah Yahushua, My YAHWEH and My ELOHIM!

If my memory serves me correctly, the disagreement between yourself and my Brother, Ken Brown (ImAHebrew), arose over the original created nature of Adam and Eve. Both Ken and I believe that Adam and Eve were created flesh in one flesh, and as Paul teaches, flesh is not subject to the Law of ELOHIM; indeed, flesh is hostile over against law:

Romans 8:5-7

5 For those (folks) being after flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but those (folks) being after spirit (do mind) the things of the Spirit.
6 For the mind of the flesh is death; but the mind of the spirit is life and peace.
7 Because the mind of the flesh is enmity against ELOHIM: for it is not subject to the law of ELOHIM, neither indeed can be.

Now, let's take a look at the mind of Eve as she disobeyed ELOHIM in the Garden. Eve engaged in a number of activities contrary to the Law of YAHWEH. Eve first bore false witness against ELOHIM by saying that she was instructed by HIM not to even touch the fruit of the Tree. Eve then looked upon the fruit and began to desire things that did not belong to her. This is called coveting. Eve then took the fruit that did not belong to her. This is called stealing. Eve then ate of the fruit which belonged to her FATHER, and thereby dishonored her FATHER. Eve then engaged in activity which eventually led to the death of her husband. This is called murder. There is no doubt in my mind that Eve in her desire to be like unto ELOHIM had already crossed the line with respect to her husband, Adam, and to her marriage with him and was indeed seeking an alternate relationship with ELOHIM. Some might refer to this activity as adultery of the heart. While it cannot be proven, I personally believe that the temptation of Eve and the eating of the Tree by both Adam and Eve took place on the Sabbath Day. I make such a statement because of this observation of James:

James 2:10

10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

This certainly can be seen in the temptation and disobedience of Eve. In her disobedience, she was engaging in activity that was against every commandment of the Ten Words. This disobedience occurred because Eve was created flesh, and, as such, her mind was after the flesh. She was powerless to be and do otherwise because she had no knowledge of spiritual things until after she sinned. It is only then that her mind was opened to spiritual things, and what do both Adam and Eve do after sinning? They hid themselves in the Garden and covered their nakedness with leaves. This activity shows that their minds were still after the flesh and were not on any activity of reconciliation with ELOHIM.

The Apostle Paul clearly wrote in two places that all men were consigned to disobedience in order that ELOHIM might have mercy upon all. Both ImAHebrew and I understand that "all" includes Adam and Eve. They were made flesh, and flesh is not subject to the Law of ELOHIM.

So, I would counsel you to amend your thinking with respect to the teaching of the Apostle Paul by seeking to receive a portion of his spirit whereby you may come to know the things of Paul more accurately.

Thanking you in advance should you be moved to reply, I am,

Sincerely, Latuwr

Ron Hackel · Aug 19, 2015

Did you ever consider that this is all a demonstration? The Jews have no clue since they do not have the New Testament. This 6000 years has been a demonstration showing the fallacy of Lucifer's claims. It is all about the war in heaven talked about in Revelation 12 : 7. Lucifer made accusations against God, and claims about himself. But, since you all have a wrong idea of what God is all about you fail to understand the big picture. God said in Zechariah 4:6, which is available to both Jews and Christians, that he did nothing by power nor might. He said rather by the Spirit. In John 14 : 17, Jesus said, that the Spirit was the truth. God doesn't demand you believe him (power or might). He simply tells you the truth. If you don't believe him, you are disciplined. How does he discipline his creation? He allows you to do it your way. God said his laws are perfect. He created us, he knows what will make us happy. If you don't believe him, do it your way. Lucifer challenged God's way of running the universe. Everyone does God's will in heaven. Lucifer argued that created beings should be allowed freewill so they could decide for themselves what is best for them. This is basically what the entire world believes, correct, that we should all have freewill? It is the same lie Lucifer (the serpent) conned Eve with. God's law is the law of love. Everyone lives to give. Paul said in Romans 1 that we had no excuse not understanding this because of what God had created. Everything in nature functions to support another part of nature (all the cycles-the law of thermal dynamics).

Freewill as Paul says has enmity against God's law (law of love-the law of giving). When we decide for ourselves what we will do in any circumstance, we decide what will be most advantageous for ourselves. We usually don't sit and consider how our decisions will effect the rest of the world. Does our getting in our cars and driving hundreds of miles for some event have a consequence in the Middle East? Have millions of people suffered because we desire to guzzle gas? Just one example. You all know, you could write all day on the extravagant things people do without the least consideration on how it effects everyone else. Only an all knowing God can orchestrate the universe so everyone does things that will make both them and everyone else happy. We are not God! We would all like to be, but we can't be. We are simply created beings. The closest we can get, is by being his adopted children as Scripture says. God is going to put his Spirit in us , so all our decisions reflect what our Creator would do. The apostles were given this at Pentecost.

1 JOHN 4 : 13 "We know that we live in him and he in us, because he has given us his Spirit."

Satan has put in our minds that we should have freewill. Paul said we can fight Satan's suggestion by our knowledge of God and making our minds obedient to Jesus. As a lot of license plates say, (What would Jesus do?). God gave us knowledge of himself through the writings of the prophets, which Peter said always came from God putting it in their minds. There are about 25 verses that condemn freewill. God giving us the truth. If we disregard it, we suffer discipline. The 6000 year demonstration has shown the pitfalls of freewill.

JEREMIAH 10 : 23 "I know, O Lord, that a man's life is not his own; it is not for man to direct his steps."

Or, the one written for Eve

HOSEA 10 : 13 "you have eaten the fruit of deception because you have depended on your own strength."

Eating off the tree of the knowledge of the knowledge of good and evil was an analogy for using freewill. It was not a test by God as Satan has put in all minds it was a warning from a loving Father. As Paul said we can prove Satan's lies false by our knowledge of God. For it to be a test it would need things to be tested with. Satan tested her by saying she would gain knowledge and be like God. But she ate because: "GENESIS 3 : 6 When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom she took some and ate. There were 3 temptations. God made the tree pleasing to the eye and good for food. Go to our knowledge of God. James 1 : 9 God tempts no one.

We've just uncovered one of Satan's top lies.

Mountain_Climber · Aug 19, 2015

Latuwr said:
Hi Mountain Climber,

Blessings to you through Messsiah Yahushua, My YAHWEH and My ELOHIM!

If my memory serves me correctly, the disagreement between yourself and my Brother, Ken Brown (ImAHebrew), arose over the original created nature of Adam and Eve. Both Ken and I believe that Adam and Eve were created flesh in one flesh, and as Paul teaches, flesh is not subject to the Law of ELOHIM; indeed, flesh is hostile over against law:

Sincerely, Latuwr

I shortened your post so as to respond to the exact place wherein you are losing the connection and failing to understand.

Paul often uses the word, "flesh", as indicative of the "carnal mind". The best place for you to grasp Paul's thinking on that is probably as follows:

Romans 8:6-9
6 For to be carnally minded is death [That is, to have one's mind fixated on pleasing the flesh is death] ; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind [which is the mind whose spirit is fixated on pleasing the flesh] is enmity against God: for it [that is, the carnal mind] is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in [,as in, stuck having their minds selfishly on pleasing] the flesh cannot please God.
9 But ye are not in the flesh [meaning you no longer have your mind stuck in selfishly feeding your flesh], but in [feeding] the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Latuwr, when you read the above you should understand that Paul is telling you, "they that are [fixated with the spirit of their mind] after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are [fixated with the spirit of their mind] after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. But what you are doing is blaming the type of body God gives to his creatures for failing to be able to do what God designed the creatures mind to do.

I am tempted to write more but at this point you need first to get this one point right concerning Paul's words, otherwise you will not understand anything else.

Mountain_Climber · Aug 19, 2015

If literally having a body of flesh meant a man cannot please God, then it could not be true that Jesus pleased God while he was a man wearing a body of flesh.

And if Jesus did not please God as a man whose body was a body of flesh, then the man that he was could not have been a role model for us as to how we all ought to walk in God's righteousness.

This ought to serve as a powerful slap in the face to wake us up to this lie that claims our inability to please God is tied to having a body of flesh.

Our past inability to please God was tied up with having our minds monopolized on the needs of our flesh, to the lack of paying attention to our need to feed the spirit which regulates our mind.

And just as our physical bodies need food that is physical to nourish it, so also our spirit needs food that is spiritual and powerful by God's spirit to feed it.

Mountain_Climber · Aug 19, 2015

Another tid-bit to ponder:

Part of the problem in the way people understand Paul rests in the erroneous belief that so long as a man wears this current flesh body he remains corruptible and mortal.

What allows our bodies to become corrupted is our having that carnal mind whose spirit is weak due to being disconnected from God's spirit and unable therefore to receive spiritual nourishment from God. But all of the New Testament writers agree that we can put on that incorruptible spirit even while wearing our body of flesh and if we would do that then we would cease corrupting our flesh. Anyone who really cares to know can search these places out in the NT where we are told this.

As for being mortal, mortal means subject to corruption and death. But if we would first put on that incorruptible spirit after the model Christ left us, then God would once again return his support of our bodies that they no longer die. God won't do that before then, as it makes no sense for him to sustain the life of something which we by our failure to appreciate our need to stay connected to and feed our spirit by his spirit, would only corrupt once again.

Romans 8:11-12 "But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh."

When God sees fit to do that for us our bodies will no longer fit the definition of mortal. We by our incorruptible spirit in the image of God will no longer corrupt ourselves and his having granted the right of life back to us our bodies will no longer die.

Thus, this which at present is corruptible will have put on incorruption and this which is at present made mortal, (made mortal by the loss of God's sustaining it) will be sustained and thus become immortal.

1 Corinthians 15:53 "For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality."

If we would get the clouding caused of illusions by inaccurate understanding out of our eyes we could then see this.

Mountain_Climber · Aug 19, 2015

Ron Hackel said:
Did you ever consider that this is all a demonstration? The Jews have no clue since they do not have the New Testament. This 6000 years has been a demonstration showing the fallacy of Lucifer's claims. It is all about the war in heaven talked about in Revelation 12 : 7. Lucifer made accusations against God, and claims about himself. But, since you all have a wrong idea of what God is all about you fail to understand the big picture. God said in Zechariah 4:6, which is available to both Jews and Christians, that he did nothing by power nor might. He said rather by the Spirit. In John 14 : 17, Jesus said, that the Spirit was the truth. God doesn't demand you believe him (power or might). He simply tells you the truth. If you don't believe him, you are disciplined. How does he discipline his creation? He allows you to do it your way. God said his laws are perfect. He created us, he knows what will make us happy. If you don't believe him, do it your way. Lucifer challenged God's way of running the universe. Everyone does God's will in heaven. Lucifer argued that created beings should be allowed freewill so they could decide for themselves what is best for them. This is basically what the entire world believes, correct, that we should all have freewill? It is the same lie Lucifer (the serpent) conned Eve with. God's law is the law of love. Everyone lives to give. Paul said in Romans 1 that we had no excuse not understanding this because of what God had created. Everything in nature functions to support another part of nature (all the cycles-the law of thermal dynamics).

Freewill as Paul says has enmity against God's law (law of love-the law of giving). When we decide for ourselves what we will do in any circumstance, we decide what will be most advantageous for ourselves. We usually don't sit and consider how our decisions will effect the rest of the world. Does our getting in our cars and driving hundreds of miles for some event have a consequence in the Middle East? Have millions of people suffered because we desire to guzzle gas? Just one example. You all know, you could write all day on the extravagant things people do without the least consideration on how it effects everyone else. Only an all knowing God can orchestrate the universe so everyone does things that will make both them and everyone else happy. We are not God! We would all like to be, but we can't be. We are simply created beings. The closest we can get, is by being his adopted children as Scripture says. God is going to put his Spirit in us , so all our decisions reflect what our Creator would do. The apostles were given this at Pentecost.

1 JOHN 4 : 13 "We know that we live in him and he in us, because he has given us his Spirit."

Satan has put in our minds that we should have freewill. Paul said we can fight Satan's suggestion by our knowledge of God and making our minds obedient to Jesus. As a lot of license plates say, (What would Jesus do?). God gave us knowledge of himself through the writings of the prophets, which Peter said always came from God putting it in their minds. There are about 25 verses that condemn freewill. God giving us the truth. If we disregard it, we suffer discipline. The 6000 year demonstration has shown the pitfalls of freewill.

JEREMIAH 10 : 23 "I know, O Lord, that a man's life is not his own; it is not for man to direct his steps."

Or, the one written for Eve

HOSEA 10 : 13 "you have eaten the fruit of deception because you have depended on your own strength."

Eating off the tree of the knowledge of the knowledge of good and evil was an analogy for using freewill. It was not a test by God as Satan has put in all minds it was a warning from a loving Father. As Paul said we can prove Satan's lies false by our knowledge of God. For it to be a test it would need things to be tested with. Satan tested her by saying she would gain knowledge and be like God. But she ate because: "GENESIS 3 : 6 When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom she took some and ate. There were 3 temptations. God made the tree pleasing to the eye and good for food. Go to our knowledge of God. James 1 : 9 God tempts no one.

We've just uncovered one of Satan's top lies.

Very well spoken Ron.

And this ties into exactly why we need to get over our focus which ties the power of our minds up in serving our flesh. That we can only do by understanding what you have just spoken. For until then, we will only ever limp at keeping focused upon the things of the spirit of God, thus not fully feeding our spirit on his.

It is the same principle as no man can serve two masters. We cannot live to serve our flesh needs and it not interfere with our trying to live for God.

We must accept that we belong to God and that if we but trust him he will supply all our needs in a far better way than we could ever have managed for ourselves.

To the extent we resist that, we cheat ourselves.

Ron Hackel · Aug 19, 2015

MC
What must take place is for trust to be restored in an all loving God. Since God is total love he cannot put his Spirit in us until full trust is restored. For God it would be unthinkable to put his Spirit in someone that didn't totally trust him.

JOHN 7 : 38&39 "Whoever BELIEVES IN ME, as the Scripture has said, STREAMS OF LIVING WATER will flow from within him.' By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive."

If you don't believe in a totally loving God, God would be like a stalker trying to tell some woman that he loved her. He may well love her, but if the woman is afraid of him it is not a loving act for him to approach her. As long as people believe that God is going to harm anyone that trust is not there. Lucifer said he could run the world better than God. God has allowed him 6000 years to prove his claims. It is not working out to well for Satan and is going to result in the earth exploding in the next 5 years or so. The explosion is caused by the conflict between humans because we live by the law of greed which is in absolute contrast to the law of love. Whether it can be physically explained by scientific means or just something that is, like gravity, our minds have an effect on the decay rate. This is what caused the flood and will result in the destruction of the entire solar system.

No one is going to be lost. Not everyone is going to heaven, but that is not the final destination. As Peter said we are looking forward to a new heaven and earth. If you look at the verse above the same thing is said to happen just before the end(Zechariah 14:5-8) when God returns to save us from the planet blowing. He could only do it with a few as to not interfere to any degree in the demonstration. God used most humans to prove Saran's claims wrong. He allowed most to live under freewill and practice the law of greed. It is the only way for a loving God to prove his way is best

ROMANS 9 : 21 "Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble use (prophets) and some for common use (all that lived by freewill)"

This actually should be obvious. Anything God had a prophet prophesy came true. In Isaiah 6 he had Isaiah prophesy that the people would not see, hear or understand the truth. A loving God would not wish this on his children. But, by allowing freewill none of us would be able to stand up to the suggestions Satan puts in our minds. as God said he was made perfect in wisdom. Isaiah asked for how long. God told him until everything is utterly destroyed (until Satan's rule is proven the disaster that it is). It says in Zephaniah 3:9 that after the final destruction he will purify the lips of all as he did Isaiah. Isaiah was deathly afraid before the angel brought the live coal from the altar. It is the fire in revelation that devours all after the 1000 year rest.

leibowde84 · Aug 19, 2015

Mattithyah said:
I came across this:

"Some Christians believe that they should keep old covenant observances such as the weekly and annual Sabbaths. A person is a "true Christian" only if he or she observes Sabbaths and certain other old covenant requirements. But the truth is that these old worship regulations are not required today, and it is legalistic to teach that people must obey those rules in order to be accounted worthy of salvation."

That is a popular argument for why Christians don't observe those Laws...

Why does that paragraph say the things that it says? First the Bible commanded us to keep 613 Commandments. Where is the prophecy in the "Old Testament" that says those Laws would someday be invalid or no longer required?

So, basically, Christians believe: For example: the Mr. Smith was born 30 B.C.E. He lived a good life before the birth of the Savior and observed those Laws with all his ability. Somewhere around 34 C.E. he no longer had to observe them (for whatever reason.

True? At what exact point in history did those Laws become invalid? What Bible verses in the "Old Testament" prove this?

This cannot be proven. In fact, the opposite is true since there are a dozen or more prophesies about the Law being and standing for ever.
[Zecharyah was written in 520 B.C.E.]
Zechariah 14:18-19 says that the heathen will be forced to observe and travel to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. This prophesy has never been fulfilled, nor has there ever been circumstances that even remotely resembled it.

Why would Yahweh force all people to observe a Feast that is no longer valid, and has no purpose? Why would Yahweh force people to be "legalistic?"

Also, I must point out that the prophecy is that Yahweh will force the heathen to keep the Feast. Does this mean that the Christians are keeping it already voluntarily? Or, does it mean that the Feast of Tabernacles will be a part of Hell?

[FYI I observe the Feast of Tabernacles Deut. 12:5-6]

I attribute this obvious discrepancy to the many unknown authors of both the new and old testaments making a lot of false claims in attempts to gain control. More so in the NT.

leibowde84 · Aug 19, 2015

Latuwr said:
Hi Mountain Climber,

Blessings to you through Messsiah Yahushua, My YAHWEH and My ELOHIM!

If my memory serves me correctly, the disagreement between yourself and my Brother, Ken Brown (ImAHebrew), arose over the original created nature of Adam and Eve. Both Ken and I believe that Adam and Eve were created flesh in one flesh, and as Paul teaches, flesh is not subject to the Law of ELOHIM; indeed, flesh is hostile over against law:

Romans 8:5-7

5 For those (folks) being after flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but those (folks) being after spirit (do mind) the things of the Spirit.
6 For the mind of the flesh is death; but the mind of the spirit is life and peace.
7 Because the mind of the flesh is enmity against ELOHIM: for it is not subject to the law of ELOHIM, neither indeed can be.

Now, let's take a look at the mind of Eve as she disobeyed ELOHIM in the Garden. Eve engaged in a number of activities contrary to the Law of YAHWEH. Eve first bore false witness against ELOHIM by saying that she was instructed by HIM not to even touch the fruit of the Tree. Eve then looked upon the fruit and began to desire things that did not belong to her. This is called coveting. Eve then took the fruit that did not belong to her. This is called stealing. Eve then ate of the fruit which belonged to her FATHER, and thereby dishonored her FATHER. Eve then engaged in activity which eventually led to the death of her husband. This is called murder. There is no doubt in my mind that Eve in her desire to be like unto ELOHIM had already crossed the line with respect to her husband, Adam, and to her marriage with him and was indeed seeking an alternate relationship with ELOHIM. Some might refer to this activity as adultery of the heart. While it cannot be proven, I personally believe that the temptation of Eve and the eating of the Tree by both Adam and Eve took place on the Sabbath Day. I make such a statement because of this observation of James:

James 2:10

10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

This certainly can be seen in the temptation and disobedience of Eve. In her disobedience, she was engaging in activity that was against every commandment of the Ten Words. This disobedience occurred because Eve was created flesh, and, as such, her mind was after the flesh. She was powerless to be and do otherwise because she had no knowledge of spiritual things until after she sinned. It is only then that her mind was opened to spiritual things, and what do both Adam and Eve do after sinning? They hid themselves in the Garden and covered their nakedness with leaves. This activity shows that their minds were still after the flesh and were not on any activity of reconciliation with ELOHIM.

The Apostle Paul clearly wrote in two places that all men were consigned to disobedience in order that ELOHIM might have mercy upon all. Both ImAHebrew and I understand that "all" includes Adam and Eve. They were made flesh, and flesh is not subject to the Law of ELOHIM.

So, I would counsel you to amend your thinking with respect to the teaching of the Apostle Paul by seeking to receive a portion of his spirit whereby you may come to know the things of Paul more accurately.

Thanking you in advance should you be moved to reply, I am,

Sincerely, Latuwr

So, you are backing up your arguments against keeping the old law with writings attributed to Paul, a man who never met Jesus, but still claimed to speak for him? You don't see the obvious circular logic? Have you studied the creation of the NT under Constantine at all?

leibowde84 · Aug 19, 2015

Mountain_Climber said:
At Romans 5:12 Paul rather plainly spoke, saying, "through one man sin entered the world", rather than saying, that sin entered into man's individual bodies.

The most appropriate understanding of Paul's words there at Romans 5:12 is, "Wherefore, as by one man's sin, sin entered into the world, and death by [that] sin; and so death passed upon all men, for [the reason] that [because of that one man's sin] all have sinned:"

That understanding correlates to Romans 5:17 saying, "by one man's offense death reigned by one ..."

Some, whether intentionally or unintentionally, have turned this into a petty word game so as to hide Paul's point from men. They have done this by assuming Paul was teaching that Adam's one sin is what directly made the rest of us sinners And so it is only fitting that we should ask, 'Did Paul believe that Adam's sin directly made us sinners in his loins, long before we were ever born?'

Jesus clearly taught that we are not a servant of sin until we choose to sin and follow through with the act of sinning: John 8:34 "Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin."

Like Jesus, Paul believed and taught that same thing, "Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?" Romans 6:16

So both Jesus and Paul indicate to us that it is our choice of conduct that makes us slaves to sin and that if we reject that conduct we are not then slaves to sin. Thus we can reasonably conclude, from both the words of Jesus and of Paul, that we are not born as slaves of sin, else it would not be true that we can choose not to be slaves to sin through our choice of conduct.

So then, what is the illusion which has held many into deception concerning this very simple to understand speech by both Jesus and Paul? That illusion is caused of not understanding that Paul merely spoke of Adam' s sin being the cause of it all, for if Adam had not sinned then sin would not have come to be in the world where it could influence us and trick our minds and hearts into becoming it's slave. Thus, regardless of that being how sin did it, it yet remains true that death was spread to us all as a consequence of that one man's sin.

And thus at Romans 5:17-19 Paul is merely telling us that, just as our having walked in the first Adam's footsteps was death to us, walking in the footsteps of Jesus Christ much more means life to us. And why "much more"? Because Adam did not have the power to deliver permanent death to us, as God's goodness and grace prevented him. But in Jesus Christ the life which is imparted to us as we follow in his steps is life that will be everlasting.

Now you can review my previous posts on Romans chapters 6 and 7 and hopefully better relate to what is said.

Amidst the confusion caused of the many who have misrepresented this matter to us, "He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still." Revelation 22:11

Once we have managed to see through their great delusion let us not return to it.

1 John 2:29 "If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him."

1 John 3:7 "Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous."

But, none of this was written by anyone who actually met Jesus. Or, at least that is what all the evidence suggests.

Jayhawker Soule · Aug 19, 2015

leibowde84 said:
Have you studied the creation of the NT under Constantine at all?

You attribute NT Canon to Constantine?

leibowde84 · Aug 19, 2015

Jayhawker Soule said:
You attribute NT Canon to Constantine?

Just the order for a canon to be decided upon. There was a plethora of claimed gospels at that time, and many oral traditions too.

Jayhawker Soule · Aug 19, 2015

leibowde84 said:
Just the order for a canon to be decided upon. There was a plethora of claimed gospels at that time, and many oral traditions too.

Reference?

Mountain_Climber · Aug 19, 2015

Ron Hackel said:
MC
What must take place is for trust to be restored in an all loving God. Since God is total love he cannot put his Spirit in us until full trust is restored. For God it would be unthinkable to put his Spirit in someone that didn't totally trust him.

JOHN 7 : 38&39 "Whoever BELIEVES IN ME, as the Scripture has said, STREAMS OF LIVING WATER will flow from within him.' By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive."

If you don't believe in a totally loving God, God would be like a stalker trying to tell some woman that he loved her. He may well love her, but if the woman is afraid of him it is not a loving act for him to approach her. As long as people believe that God is going to harm anyone that trust is not there. Lucifer said he could run the world better than God. God has allowed him 6000 years to prove his claims. It is not working out to well for Satan and is going to result in the earth exploding in the next 5 years or so. The explosion is caused by the conflict between humans because we live by the law of greed which is in absolute contrast to the law of love. Whether it can be physically explained by scientific means or just something that is, like gravity, our minds have an effect on the decay rate. This is what caused the flood and will result in the destruction of the entire solar system.

No one is going to be lost. Not everyone is going to heaven, but that is not the final destination. As Peter said we are looking forward to a new heaven and earth. If you look at the verse above the same thing is said to happen just before the end(Zechariah 14:5-8) when God returns to save us from the planet blowing. He could only do it with a few as to not interfere to any degree in the demonstration. God used most humans to prove Saran's claims wrong. He allowed most to live under freewill and practice the law of greed. It is the only way for a loving God to prove his way is best

ROMANS 9 : 21 "Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble use (prophets) and some for common use (all that lived by freewill)"

This actually should be obvious. Anything God had a prophet prophesy came true. In Isaiah 6 he had Isaiah prophesy that the people would not see, hear or understand the truth. A loving God would not wish this on his children. But, by allowing freewill none of us would be able to stand up to the suggestions Satan puts in our minds. as God said he was made perfect in wisdom. Isaiah asked for how long. God told him until everything is utterly destroyed (until Satan's rule is proven the disaster that it is). It says in Zephaniah 3:9 that after the final destruction he will purify the lips of all as he did Isaiah. Isaiah was deathly afraid before the angel brought the live coal from the altar. It is the fire in revelation that devours all after the 1000 year rest.

That is not right, Ron. (Added: Neither do I mean it is all wrong. You said much that is right on target. I mean only that it is not right that God created anyone as a vessel fit for destruction. That verse speaks to how we can either be made a new creation or if we refuse to be reasonable and place faith him so that he can teach us, then because of our refusal he purposely will create an even more stubborn heart in us so that he can use us to demonstrate his power and superior wisdom to those that have placed faith in him. For the sake of the many who ignorantly claim that is how God first created us we need to make that very clear. The contrast is the new creation we can be born again to {thus molded by him to righteousness}, as opposed to the way he will mold us if we prove to reject faith and are defiant of him.)

If you would understand that the all-consuming theme of Paul's words in Romans chapter 5 is sin having ruled as king in and by one man's transgression as compared to righteousness ruling as king through the grace of God in and by one man's faithfulness, then you could begin to get the entire picture pieced together properly. The last verse there in Romans 5 sums it up nicely.

You should know that what it takes for God to give his spirit is the imputation of righteousness. And you should know that God grants that imputation of righteousness to those who show a willingness to allow his spirit to have a foothold in their heart by faith.

From that point forward his spirit helps us to perfect his love in our spirit. And why is that important?

1 John 4:18 "There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love."

The Greek word for "torment" there above comes up from the Greek "kolos", which means to dwarf or curtail. So Johns thought there is that any fear in our love imprisons us from letting go and letting God have the control that we can benefit from his spirit.

God's grace has given us the head-start at beginning to remove that fear out of our love for God and for one another, so bringing us gradually to greater and greater peace with God that we can hear and cooperate with his spirit more and more fully through our practice of faith over time.

You were not automatically born a sinner either, even though sin began to rule as king over mankind enabled by the one man Adam's sin. And neither are we born fully to God's righteousness all at once, but just as we advanced in sin through the practice of sin we advance in God's righteousness through the practice of his righteousness. And his love is the vehicle of his righteousness which is why we must get that fear out of us and grow in his love, making his way of love our way of love.

I cannot say it any plainer than that. God's righteousness and thus God, rules as king in our life by the practice of his righteousness, even as sin ruled as king in our life by the practice of sin.

Mountain_Climber · Aug 19, 2015

leibowde84 said:
But, none of this was written by anyone who actually met Jesus. Or, at least that is what all the evidence suggests.

Many deceivers have gone forth into the world corrupting much evidence.

So do yourself a favor and lean into faith and love and trust in God to help you see between what is reality and what is machination.

If you would first understand what is in the word you would then see clearly what attempts to corrupt the word. But if you allow the words of men to tell you what is in God's word, you will never know what is there.

Put God and his word in first place so that he can open your eyes to see. Until then the blind with their so-called evidence will only help you stay blind.

Mountain_Climber · Aug 19, 2015

Latuwr said:
Eve first bore false witness against ELOHIM by saying that she was instructed by HIM not to even touch the fruit of the Tree.

No, Eve there told the truth and that is made clear in the Old Law Covenant for it speaks much about the impropriety of touching any unclean thing. I have to believe you know that and so just spoke hastily there.

What rendered that tree of the knowledge of good and evil unclean and unfit to be touched or eaten from? It was the fact that the tree represented a certain kind of knowledge God knew was bad for us and would kill us spiritually, leading to his having to then destroy us. So that tree is proof that God forbade us to meddle with certain kinds of knowledge, which then throws the idea of freewill being God's gift to us right out the window.

Ron Hackel speaks right on target concerning this point. This idea of freewill came by wrongful seizure on both that serpent's and man's part to meddle with knowledge that God had forbade his creatures to meddle with. After so many thousands of years of reaping what we sowed in grief to ourselves we should be waking up to that by now..

There a few tiny little subtle errors in your thinking in that last post of yours. It is better for that reason if I do not try to address them all at one time.

You will eventually understand if you really desire to. You are not any different than anyone else in that regard as we all have gone through confusion thinking we had it right before we actually got much of anything right.

Added: here is what I would like for you to work on seeing. God's laws are all love to those that love him.

God does not just bark out commands so that he can feel good in his authority. God speaks for our benefit.

You quoted James where James speaks of the requirement that a man obey ALL the Law rather than just the parts of it he desires to obey. But if you will notice James also shows that cannot be done by just observing the letter of that law as it relates to a particular thing, but must be done by observing the spirit behind the Law so that when it is applied it gets applied to all the varied situations where that spiritual principle would be applicable.

If you obeyed all that Law but for one commandment, could you then really claim that you honor your mother and your father? You surely must know that it is your mother's and your father's desire that you not sin and thus that you would do nothing which would end in harm to you or in your harming others. So then if you commit even one small violation of God's Law have you really completely honored you mother and your father? The obvious answer is, no.

When one's assessment of God's Law remains superficial so that they only apply it by the letter to the specific act it was stated concerning, then unbeknownst to one's self they are violating that law in many spiritual ways which their minds and hearts have failed to connect the principle of that Law to.

God is not a God of do this, don't do that. He is working to teach our hearts to use his wisdom and if we fail to connect with that wisdom which is highly spiritual, then, we can easily deceive ourselves that we are honoring God in keeping the letter of that law.

Ken Brown · Aug 20, 2015

leibowde84 said:
I attribute this obvious discrepancy to the many unknown authors of both the new and old testaments making a lot of false claims in attempts to gain control. More so in the NT.

Shalom leibowde84, and greetings. Do you have any obvious discrepancies in your claims as to what you teach should be observed? Do you observe Sukkot (FOT) as does the OP? Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew.

Ron Hackel · Aug 20, 2015

MC

You continually use the wrong idea of what sin is. The Jews according to Gabriel were to do away with sin. How could they do that using your idea of the definition? Gabriel said if they didn't that Jesus would do it for them during the last week of the prophecy. Jesus came and demonstrated God's true character. He would allow his created beings to kill him without lifting a finger to stop them. His love toward his created beings is that great. Adam and Eve sinned by doubting in a loving God. They were the first under the covenant. They didn't hold up their part of the covenant when they ran and hid from God. The tree of the knowledge of good and evil was not a test by God.

Mountain_Climber · Aug 20, 2015

Ron Hackel said:
MC

You continually use the wrong idea of what sin is. The Jews according to Gabriel were to do away with sin. How could they do that using your idea of the definition? Gabriel said if they didn't that Jesus would do it for them during the last week of the prophecy. Jesus came and demonstrated God's true character. He would allow his created beings to kill him without lifting a finger to stop them. His love toward his created beings is that great. Adam and Eve sinned by doubting in a loving God. They were the first under the covenant. They didn't hold up their part of the covenant when they ran and hid from God. The tree of the knowledge of good and evil was not a test by God.

I see that as a meaningless rant spoken by ignorance.

I never said that the tree of the knowledge of good and evil was a test. You probably got your idea that that tree was not a test either directly or indirectly from me but just do not know it.

I began speaking that idea openly on the web decades ago saying that that tree was not a test and I have never been to a Bible discussion or debate site wherein I did not frequently bring that up.

However, like any other Bible teaching, men pick up an idea and they begin adding to it and altering it.

Gabriel never said that the Jews were to bring an end to sin. That is a fallacious idea.

From the beginning of the world which was founded in Adam's sin it has been foretold that it would be the singular seed of promise, the Messiah, who would bring an end to sin.

So if you are going to report Gabriel publicly as having made that claim, back it up with the scriptural proof instead of just your own words.

Gabriel is only mentioned in the book of Daniel chapters 8 and 9 in the OT and in Luke 1 of the NT. I see no place there where he spoke what you say. And if you will show me exactly where you think Gabriel said that, then perhaps we can get to the bottom of this matter.

Stick with the definition of sin given by John at 1 John 3:4. It is missing the mark of the standard God set to govern our conduct. That mark is his word. His word is law. And to fail to heed his word is lawlessness.

The Law

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