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Paul vs "the law" (can humans earn righteousness?)

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Life is not owed anyone. I believe life should be treated as a gift to cherish. But life is not exclusionary which is a new word for me. If I know what it means I'll say life and belief are not that.

Life is best spent with the goal to make it better for the self and others. A person can do that without faith in God and without knowledge of law.
 

leibowde84

Veteran Member
I am trying to understand that question.
1. Belief is exclusionary and
2. "it" (belief?) is out of a person's control

Could you please rephrase the question. I like questions, but not that one.
I was simply pointing out that lack of knowledge, differing cultures upbringing, plausibility of arguments offered by theists, time/place of birth, etc. are of paramount importance to what an individual believes. How do you reconcile thisbwith your claim that belief can exclude.
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I was simply pointing out that lack of knowledge, differing cultures upbringing, plausibility of arguments offered by theists, time/place of birth, etc. are of paramount importance to what an individual believes. How do you reconcile thisbwith your claim that belief can exclude.
Belief in Heaven will get you there. If a person does not believe it is there how can he get to it?
 

leibowde84

Veteran Member
Life is not owed anyone. I believe life should be treated as a gift to cherish. But life is not exclusionary which is a new word for me. If I know what it means I'll say life and belief are not that.

Life is best spent with the goal to make it better for the self and others. A person can do that without faith in God and without knowledge of law.
Exclusionary as in excluded from the kingdom and what not.
 

leibowde84

Veteran Member
Belief in Heaven will get you there. If a person does not believe it is there how can he get to it?
I fail to see why belief would preclude someone from reaching heaven. It's up to God, not us, right? If we are good people, can't God guide us after death, if that is even necessary.
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I fail to see why belief would preclude someone from reaching heaven. It's up to God, not us, right? If we are good people, can't God guide us after death, if that is even necessary.
Heaven as in the place of God, power and righteousness, not the place of the dead. I think righteousness gets a person there and yes, it is up to God to let us have it............or not.
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
We aren't elected into heaven, are we?
I do not know. I think maybe they are. What I am saying is that a person can live a righteously inclined life without belief in the rightness of it. Naturally, not on purpose. Some people's purpose is to be elected to Heaven and some people do not care. I am saying I think not caring is OK.
 

leibowde84

Veteran Member
Heaven as in the place of God, power and righteousness, not the place of the dead. I think righteousness gets a person there and yes, it is up to God to let us have it............or not.
So, why is belief necessary for righteousness. I feel like the only evidence of this is claims made in scripture, and using these would demonstrate clear circular reasoning, would it not?
 

leibowde84

Veteran Member
I do not know. I think maybe they are. What I am saying is that a person can life a righteously inclined life without belief in the rightness of it. Naturally, not on purpose. Some people's purpose is to be elected to Heaven and some people do not care. I am saying I think not caring is OK.
You are dodging the question though. Why is belief necessary?
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
So, why is belief necessary for righteousness. I feel like the only evidence of this is claims made in scripture, and using these would demonstrate clear circular reasoning, would it not?
I am not saying belief is necessary for righteousness. I might say, for being pressed for it, that belief is necessary for knowing righteousness. I think a person can be righteous without know how.
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
You are dodging the question though. Why is belief necessary?
Why is belief necessary for getting somewhere? I don't know. To get to the city I have to know how. To speak another language I must learn how. I know of good animals and belief is not necessary for those good animals to be good.

To the place with God needs belief to get there. I am sure of that, but I don't know why. Can you explain why you might disagree with that?
 

leibowde84

Veteran Member
Why is belief necessary for getting somewhere? I don't know. To get to the city I have to know how. To speak another language I must learn how. I know of good animals and belief is not necessary for those good animals to be good.

To the place with God needs belief to get there. I am sure of that, but I don't know why. Can you explain why you might disagree with that?
You can certainly get to a city without knowing how. I've wandered upon cities myself from time to time without knowing where I was going. And, that is my point. I think that, whether you believe or not, your "final destination" will depend entirely on your actions and how you interact with your fellow human beings and other living things. Also, it will depend on to what extent you valued your own life and made the best of it. I fail to see any coherent reasoning behind seeing belief in anything as an exclusionary factor for getting to God. There are many paths, and, often, they don't seem to require any knowledge or understanding of God.

You say that you are "sure [that belief is necessary] to get to the place with God", yet you admit that you don't know why. Doesn't this bother you? This is the definition of "blind faith", which can be extremely dangerous. So, how can you be so confident without understanding why it makes sense? I am genuinely interested to know how you reconcile this.
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
You can certainly get to a city without knowing how. I've wandered upon cities myself from time to time without knowing where I was going.
That is a very good point and true.
And, that is my point. I think that, whether you believe or not, your "final destination" will depend entirely on your actions and how you interact with your fellow human beings and other living things.
OK.
Also, it will depend on to what extent you valued your own life and made the best of it.
This seems to be based on the belief that good people go to heaven.
I fail to see any coherent reasoning behind seeing belief in anything as an exclusionary factor for getting to God.
How would a person know if he got to God?
There are many paths, and, often, they don't seem to require any knowledge or understanding of God.
I agree.

You say that you are "sure [that belief is necessary] to get to the place with God", yet you admit that you don't know why. Doesn't this bother you? This is the definition of "blind faith", which can be extremely dangerous. So, how can you be so confident without understanding why it makes sense? I am genuinely interested to know how you reconcile this.
God is about doing. I think a person has to know that. Jesus Christ says, "let God's will be done". I think I must believe in God before I can seek to do the will of God. Why not?
 

Sleeppy

Fatalist. Christian. Pacifist.
Only Paul teaches this type of logic. Never mind the fact that it is an important part of the Law for man to know his place and humble himself! If people kept all the Law they wouldn't be boasting anyway.

"He has shown you, O man, what is good; and what does the Lord require of you but to do justly, to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God." Micah 6:8

Notice also what it says about the man who gave us the Law.

Now the man Moses was very humble, more than all men who were on the face of the earth. Numbers 12:3

God has never been in the business of making it impossible for man to boast. He just makes it not worth the while for those who do. The irony is, in the real world, Paul's doctrine is the source of far more pride and boasting than any other doctrine! One only need look at Paul himself and notice how he lifted himself above the very apostles who followed Yeshua (2Corinthians 11:5, Galatians 2:6,9), and how he even lifted himself above Moses by belittling him in 2Corithians 3:11-13. Anyone who believes that God actually destined before creation some vessels for honor and some for dishonor (Romans 9:20-23), and also believes he just happens to be one who is destined for honor, cannot avoid thinking way too highly of themselves, because they actually have grounds on which to boast!
I'm not Paul. Paul was certainly more logically consistent than his predecessors in regards to the zeal of God's creative control- but, had he understood that God's creative zeal is whole and perfect? It's difficult to know.

As for humility.. Neither Micah, nor Moses, nor perhaps even Paul, were able to perfect it in either truth or action. True humility is in knowing that God is God; one and undivided. Knowing this, you wouldn't be able to boast, in either will or action. This is what free will is; a boast in power apart from God. These three fell short (as does all creation in relation to the knowledge of God), in that they accepted the false inheritance given to them through their father's zealous pride. Etc, etc.

Don't believe everything you read.
 
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leibowde84

Veteran Member
That is a very good point and true. OK. This seems to be based on the belief that good people go to heaven. How would a person know if he got to God? I agree.

God is about doing. I think a person has to know that. Jesus Christ says, "let God's will be done". I think I must believe in God before I can seek to do the will of God. Why not?
I guess that's where we disagree. I don't see a necessity of belief in any of it. And, obviously, once God shows himself to anyone, belief is no longer an issue.
 

Simplelogic

Well-Known Member
I guess that's where we disagree. I don't see a necessity of belief in any of it. And, obviously, once God shows himself to anyone, belief is no longer an issue.
Belief itself is an interesting word which means different things to different types of Christians. Some believe you have to believe that Jesus is God and this alone is what transfers Jesus' righteousness to the individual. Others believe you also have to "believe" in the virgin birth as well as the trinity concept to truly be "saved", while others maintain you must believe in the death and resurrection. Many Christians believe you have to "believe" all of these concepts about Jesus. Most Christians have kept some form of the Nicene creed as the bedrock for their faith.

It is obvious that in Christian logic, salvation is fully dependent on exactly how one characterizes the nature God Himself, as well as Jesus. So basically its about who has the right theology or formula. It should be painfully obvious that this criteria for determining who has eternal salvation is an extremely bigoted and unjust concept. This places human salvation on the intellectual level and requires humans to be able to grasp a "concept" in order to be redeemed. Not to mention the fact that the vast majority of humans on this planet have no idea about these concepts at all! In the Christian psyche it doesn't matter in the end. The world is doomed and the billions of people who are ignorant of these concepts and guaranteed to spend eternity in hell for their lack of knowledge. Even though it is easy to see just how unjust this elitist form of salvation really is it seems that most Christians are fine with following a God who tortures humans forever on account of a religious technicality that only a small fraction of the world is even aware of.
 

BenTheBeliever

Active Member
I fail to see why belief would preclude someone from reaching heaven. It's up to God, not us, right? If we are good people, can't God guide us after death, if that is even necessary.

It is not about being good. This idea that being good can get you into Heaven is a fable IMO. If being good does that then we would not need salvation. Yet we do need it.
Exclusionary as in excluded from the kingdom and what not.
 

Simplelogic

Well-Known Member
I'm not Paul. Paul was certainly more logically consistent than his predecessors in regards to the zeal of God's creative control- but, had he understood that God's creative zeal is whole and perfect? It's difficult to know.

As for humility.. Neither Micah, nor Moses, nor perhaps even Paul, were able to perfect it in either truth or action. True humility is in knowing that God is God; one and undivided. Knowing this, you wouldn't be able to boast, in either will or action. This is what free will is; a boast in power apart from God. These three fell short (as does all creation in relation to the knowledge of God), in that they accepted the false inheritance given to them through their father's zealous pride. Etc, etc.

Don't believe everything you read.
Not sure what to make of this post. God's "creative control" and "creative zeal"??? What are you talking about? Also you have a pretty absurd definition of free will it seems.
 
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