The Law

Mountain_Climber · Aug 9, 2015

Ken Brown said:
Shalom Mountain Climber, you will have to refresh my memory (you know how bad my memory is) as to where this took place. Do you have a link or a web address for this site that "gathered against and beheaded" you from their site? Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew.

LOL. I don't play stupid.

Please make that your last post to me or about me and I will do the same for you.

And a couple of Proverbs for others to consider may well be Proverbs 16:28 and Proverbs 26:20

Ken Brown · Aug 9, 2015

Shalom Everyone, it might be a good side topic to discuss "why the Torah was added." Paul speaks of it in Romans and Galatians and I was wondering what everyone feels Paul was teaching. Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew.

Mountain_Climber · Aug 9, 2015

Romans 7:

7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Howbeit, I had not known sin, except through the law: for I had not known coveting, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet:

The Old Law's temporary purpose was to educate those who sinned by ignorance of what sin was, that they might repent sin when the help to understand how to do so would finally arrive in the Messiah. John 1:17 “For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.”

Galatians 3:21 “Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could make alive, verily righteousness would have been of the law.” Thus Paul clearly stated that law could not give anyone life. And so neither could that Law make anyone righteous.

When one is spiritually dead, there must first be a recognition of righteousness before that man can be reckoned as once again being alive. Otherwise God is unwilling to show mercy toward that man and recognize that man as having life for him to bless with help. It is for that reason that this imputed early righteousness, which yet needs to be polished and made to shine, is reckoned through the finding of faith in a man. Romans 4:3 “For what saith the scripture? And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned unto him for righteousness.”

Added: Let it be known that in the above paragraph that is not a selfish thing on God's part because it is for our own good that he be that way, else we would learn nothing and never be able to change. So in that way this, too, is a part of his grace which knows tough love and does not show misplaced kindness.

Does that mean that Abraham was completely righteous and fully returned to being the image of God? No, for faith must continue to grow and as it grows so does righteousness. The entire chapter of 2 Thessalonians 1, well shows us this as does much other scripture.

What did that Old law teach us? It taught man what sin is and that he needed the help of God's appointed Messiah both to make salvation possible and to teach us how to get free from sin so that we might attain salvation. It is for that reason that Paul refers to that Law as a temporary guardian or schoolmaster or tutor. Galatians 3:24-25 “So that the law is become our tutor to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But now faith that is come, we are no longer under a tutor.”

I want to interject a point here before concluding this particular post because I see many believe that there cannot be any man who yet wears human flesh that has perfected his spirit in this life so that he is totally free from the threat of sin's temptations in himself, for they believe he could then have been the sacrifice for sin. That is clearly a logical fallacy and I am going to share with you why.

It is a logical fallacy because God is the one who must choose the sacrifice he desires and the one to be that sacrifice. That logical fallacy is therefore actually presumptuous, for it is like saying a sinless man suddenly has the right to usurp God's calling and choosing.

And it is a logical fallacy because no man could have manged that without Christ having made it possible. So once again the idea proves presumptuous.

Isn't it really something how our minds can trick us. Perhaps we had all better reconsider the words provided us in 1 John.

Until we reach that point of perfection in our own spirit, we really cannot always correctly recognize what is and isn't sin in others. We are not much better off than the first century Pharisees who imagined they saw Jesus sinning until we have perfected ourselves. Then and only then are we equipped to judge others. So until then we are much better of to suspend our judgments we have made of others. We would not want to be found fighters against God and Christ due to weakness in our ability to accurately judge.

Ron Hackel · Aug 9, 2015

HEBREWS 7 : 18&19 "The former regulation is set aside because it was weak and useless (for the law made nothing perfect), and a better hope is introduced, by which we draw near to God."

The word perfect is also translated as mature in other Scripture.

HEBREWS 10 : 1 "The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming-not the realities themselves. For this reason it can never, by the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, make perfect (mature) those who draw near to worship."

HEBREWS 4 : 2 "For we also have had the gospel preached to us, just as they did; but the message they heard was of no value to them, because those who heard did not combine it with faith."

PSALM 78 : 32 "In spite of all this, they kept on SINNING; in spite of his wonders, they did not believe."

If you read the entire Psalm it chronicles the first 3 months after slavery. God led them like a loving father. No matter how much they grumbled he simply did what they needed. As the Psalm says they refused to believe in this type of god. After three months he finally relented and gave them the god they desired. Stephen varifies it in Acts 7:39. Paul said that Moses was so afraid at Mount Sinai that he was trembling with fear (Heb 12:21). Yet he told the Jews, "Don't be afraid God has come to test you" (Ex 20:20). He said this because even though he was terrified at the sight he knew it was really not the picture of God but rather God coming as a pagan god to see if they would follow that type of god. And the answer they gave was YES!!!

GALATIANS 3 : 19 "What, then, was the purpose of the law? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come."

Jesus kept saying, "My time has not yet come. The time that Jesus was to arrive as the anointed was prophesied by Gabriel to Daniel. Since the Seed was to come through the woman (symbolically God's chosen people- he is the groom, they are the bride) they had to be kept together as a people. Since they refused to believe in a god of love as he is, they needed a way to think God was okay with them.

Everytime they did something wrong they would sacrifice an animal. What happened the next time they did something wrong? They'd have to trot out another sheep or cow. As Paul said these sacrifices made year after year NEVER made their faith perfect (mature) in a loving God. That is why it says that Jesus was the end of the law. Jesus showed the true character of God. If you compare Jesus to the legalistic god at Mount Sinai, there is no comparison. That is why Paul said:

2 CORINTHIANS 3 : 9 "If the ministry that condemns men is glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness."

If you go to Romans 3 : 9-12, Paul says there is no one righteous, THAT NO ONE UNDERSTOOD GOD. He said that both Jews and Gentiles were under sin. If you back up to Psalm 78:32 the Jews sin was not believing in a God of love. Paul said the Jews and Gentiles were both under sin-both sacrificed to appease their gods. Satan has the entire world bamboozled into using the wrong definitions of sin and righteousness.

Mountain_Climber · Aug 9, 2015

Ron Hackel said:
HEBREWS 7 : 18&19 "The former regulation is set aside because it was weak and useless (for the law made nothing perfect), and a better hope is introduced, by which we draw near to God."

The word perfect is also translated as mature in other Scripture.

HEBREWS 10 : 1 "The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming-not the realities themselves. For this reason it can never, by the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, make perfect (mature) those who draw near to worship."

HEBREWS 4 : 2 "For we also have had the gospel preached to us, just as they did; but the message they heard was of no value to them, because those who heard did not combine it with faith."

PSALM 78 : 32 "In spite of all this, they kept on SINNING; in spite of his wonders, they did not believe."

If you read the entire Psalm it chronicles the first 3 months after slavery. God led them like a loving father. No matter how much they grumbled he simply did what they needed. As the Psalm says they refused to believe in this type of god. After three months he finally relented and gave them the god they desired. Stephen varifies it in Acts 7:39. Paul said that Moses was so afraid at Mount Sinai that he was trembling with fear (Heb 12:21). Yet he told the Jews, "Don't be afraid God has come to test you" (Ex 20:20). He said this because even though he was terrified at the sight he knew it was really not the picture of God but rather God coming as a pagan god to see if they would follow that type of god. And the answer they gave was YES!!!

GALATIANS 3 : 19 "What, then, was the purpose of the law? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come."

Jesus kept saying, "My time has not yet come. The time that Jesus was to arrive as the anointed was prophesied by Gabriel to Daniel. Since the Seed was to come through the woman (symbolically God's chosen people- he is the groom, they are the bride) they had to be kept together as a people. Since they refused to believe in a god of love as he is, they needed a way to think God was okay with them.

Everytime they did something wrong they would sacrifice an animal. What happened the next time they did something wrong? They'd have to trot out another sheep or cow. As Paul said these sacrifices made year after year NEVER made their faith perfect (mature) in a loving God. That is why it says that Jesus was the end of the law. Jesus showed the true character of God. If you compare Jesus to the legalistic god at Mount Sinai, there is no comparison. That is why Paul said:

2 CORINTHIANS 3 : 9 "If the ministry that condemns men is glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness."

If you go to Romans 3 : 9-12, Paul says there is no one righteous, THAT NO ONE UNDERSTOOD GOD. He said that both Jews and Gentiles were under sin. If you back up to Psalm 78:32 the Jews sin was not believing in a God of love. Paul said the Jews and Gentiles were both under sin-both sacrificed to appease their gods. Satan has the entire world bamboozled into using the wrong definitions of sin and righteousness.

Good post, Ron.

From the standpoint that if sin had never been made through rebellion to exist God would never have had to show that character side which deals with the rebellion of sin, I can agree with you.

It is definitely out of normal character for God.

JesusBeliever · Aug 10, 2015

Mountain_Climber said:
You have a good attitude, just don't sully it with an effort to be the arbitrator of the natural law of sowing and reaping. Don't try to be anyone's cushion against hurt feelings, for you just might be interfering with something God is doing and tampering with his natural laws.

I hear you loud and clear MC and see that you have been given eyes to see some of my faults and flaws. It's one of the reasons I'm often quite hesitant to speak (or in this case write) lest I find my feet standing where they ought not. It was not my intention to be an arbitrator at all and honestly it still isn't. I had actually considered walking away quietly and looking for another thread, but I felt convicted that it wasn't the loving thing to do and besides I'd probably just run into the same thing somewhere else. So I felt encouraged to remain on this thread and express my perspective in a spirit of love for you both. And I must admit that my own analogy of the mashed potatoes made me wince a bit. And had you not already replied I might have been tempted to delete it. So thanks for taking it on the chin, and replying in a spirit of love. Same goes for you Ken. This alone has taught me a lot.

Ken Brown said:
Shalom JB, you do present a compelling case for extreme patience with one another, and I do hope we all can attain to that level. And I do like the example of the Bereans, I wish everyone would be like them. It does happen though that some will not believe and remain fractious as in the case of those who debated with Apollos in (Acts of the Apostles 18:24-28) and Stephen here (Acts of the Apostles 6:9-10), and Paul advising Titus to exhort, refute, and rebuke sharply (Titus 1:9-16). Even brothers can contend with one another, but do it out of love, not hate (Acts of the Apostles 15:39).

I agree, absolutely! It may not be obvious to you both, but the reason I felt drawn into this debate is because MC's rebuke of you seemed to be in direct relation to something you had said to me (see post #331) and I couldn't help but feel that any jabs and putdowns sent your way by MC were as much applicable to me as you, especially when I found myself agreeing with you. Note that MC replied in post #338 to your comments to me:

Mountain_Climber said:
Ken Brown said:

Shalom JB, good for you. Most feel that Hashem's plan was foiled when Satan tempted Eve and sin entered, but in reality, it was planned that they sin, they didn't have any option as "naked" flesh cannot and will not obey. Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew.

Click to expand...

I am glad I caught this post 349 of yours as it answers much for me.

In the same post MC said:

Mountain_Climber said:
You people, yes almost all I see posting to this thread, are only hearing what you want from Paul but you are not really hearing him through. You are those Peter spoke of at 2 Peter 3:16. I tell you that for your own good that you might come down from off of this high you are on in thinking you know so much more than you do.

I am one of few who can teach you Paul's words correctly though I like you had to first go through a time of wresting his words. But God used that wresting I was doing when I believed and taught the very things you are saying, to cause a great crash in my life. And being brought low to the ground I finally became humble enough that I could be taught. And teach me God did.

I am not speaking guesswork about the things I see you saying. I am speaking as one who was as you and had to learn the hard way what the truth really is.

I think the greatest assumption MC makes here is that none of us have experienced this same crash in our lives and been taught by God regarding Paul's writings. He assumes total knowledge of Paul's writings and thus everyone who disagrees with him he regards as wresting with the Apostle Paul's writings, when in fact it may be him that is still wresting on some points (No disrespect intended MC). No matter how much I think I understand Paul's writings and have huge respect for them I would never assume total knowledge of them for reasons I mentioned previously. Whenever people quote 2 Peter 3:16 they seem to always overlook the preceding verse which says:

"Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless. And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction." 2Pe 3:14-16

It was only a few years ago that I noticed this statement by Peter - seeing that ye... account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation... As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things. And once I started to approach Paul's writings from this perspective, my view of them and salvation in general completely changed. No longer do I ask the Lord to help me long-suffer others, but I ask Him to forgive me when I fall short of His continual example of long-suffering me! I no longer think that he chose me coz I was more righteous than others but because I was stiff-necked in thinking I was. Like the turtle in the race with the hare, I think those He chooses to give a head start is coz He knows the hare is gonna catch up and cross the finish line with the turtle. The Apostle Paul was one such hare, and according to him there have been and will be others just like him:

"This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief. Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting." 1Ti 1:15-16

I could go on but feel I might be getting a bit off track and possibly thinking out loud, so I'll leave it here.

JesusBeliever · Aug 10, 2015

Mountain_Climber said:
LOL. I don't play stupid.

Please make that your last post to me or about me and I will do the same for you.

And a couple of Proverbs for others to consider may well be Proverbs 16:28 and Proverbs 26:20

For reason's not related to this forum, thanks for these verses. They have given me the correction, direction and guidance I was seeking concerning an issue I've been facing in my personal life. As for what prompted you to quote these verses I am unaware, having spent most of today writing my previous post. I've got some reading to do to catch up with all that has transpired since my last post.

JesusBeliever · Aug 10, 2015

Mountain_Climber said:
One hundred years into a world without sin no one will need any longer to have any knowledge concerning sin. All will obey God from the heart, never having any doubt in them which would raise a challenging question in them. It was Satan that sold us the idea we need all that knowledge. And we see many have built their religious beliefs centering around that lie, believing that it is the lack of that knowledge which cripples us, knowing full well God had said not to even touch it.

Thanks for sharing this MC! There are probably others but you're the first person I've heard say this, and I believe it absolutely! Was it possibly that personal crash you spoke of, that helped you realise this truth? Coz that would make a lot of sense.

Mountain_Climber · Aug 10, 2015

Paul has already told us back in verse 5 “For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.”

So we know beyond any doubt that in verses 9-10 he has to be speaking of the man he was before he had met with faith in Christ. That of course means that he was yet fixated with his mind in on the flesh rather than in the spirit of God. In other words, he is speaking of when he was yet a carnal minded man, not yet having been born again.

Romans 7:9 “And I was alive apart from the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died;”
Paul was alive until he was able to learn of his sin by hearing God's Law: (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.” Romans 5:13

Romans 7: 10 “and the commandment, which [was] unto life, this I found [to be] unto death:
Thus the very commandments which was, or would have been, life to him as a born again spiritual minded man, was made to be death by the sin he practiced while in his carnal state of mind, not yet born again, fixated by a fleshly selfish focus in the way he thought about things.

Romans 7:11 “for sin, finding occasion, through the commandment beguiled me, and through it slew me.”
Thus it was really that sin in the world posing temptation to him, and which he in his carnal state of mind could not resist, that was using that Law to work death to him. Paul told us at Romans 5:12, “through the disobedience of one sin entered the world.” And as a carnal thinking man Paul, like all other men, was weak in his defenses against it's temptations.

So there here in 7:11, before Christ helped him to leave his carnal thinking and be renewed in the spirit of his mind by being born again, he was yet able to be beguiled by the presence of that sin in the world. That sin which constantly tempted him is what made the Law be death to him, for that Law stated: Deuteronomy 27:26 “Cursed <H0779> be <H9999> he that <H0834> confirmeth <H6965> not <H3808> all <H3605> the words of <H1697> this <H2063> law <H8451> to do <H6213> them <H0853>. And <H0559> all <H3605> the people <H5971> shall say <H0559>, Amen <H0543>.”

Deuteronomy 28:15 “But it shall come to pass, if thou wilt not hearken unto the voice of Jehovah thy God, to observe to do all his commandments and his statutes which I command thee this day, that all these curses shall come upon thee, and overtake thee.”

Having established that Paul is very clearly speaking of himself as the man before Christ who was yet stuck in his carnal thinking, we continue on.

Romans 7:
12 So that the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and righteous, and good.
13 Did then that which is good become death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might be shown to be sin, by working death to me through that which is good; -- that through the commandment sin might become exceeding sinful.

There in verses 12 and 13 we see that the Law is holy and righteous and good and he wants us to be clear on the point that the Law is not bad, but it is the sin in this world which exists to tempt man which is bad. And he wants us to understand that in God's wisdom he designed that Law so as to expose that sin, that that sin might be seen as exceedingly sinful by us. That is so that we would come to hate sin and be inclined to be willing to prepare in our hearts to fully embrace the promised Messiah when he would come, For it has always been God's plan that it would be through the Messiah that we would find release from that predicament. A huge part of that by being born again to a renewed spiritual mind that can keep God's law from the heart and eventually through practice and the development of sound habits no longer need sacrifice for sins, as we would then be completely free of sin's ability to tempt us. That then we also mean that we would no longer be one of the ones who are responsible for keeping sin present in this world.

Yet speaking as the carnal minded man before Christ, Paul goes onto say:
Romans 7:14 “For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.”

Notice there that he is under sin due to being carnal minded. Adam sold us all out to sin by his choosing to sin. Thus Adam set up sin as a master over us along with himself. But no man can serve two masters and sin was a more powerful master than was Adam after he had sinned. For in sinning he made himself to be also a slave of sin.

Romans 7:
15 For that which I do I know not: for not what I would, that do I practise; but what I hate, that I do.
16 But if what I would not, that I do, I consent unto the law that it is good.
17 So now it is no more I that do it, but sin which dwelleth in me.

There is no doubt that Paul is yet speaking as the carnal minded man before Christ. And we have seen clear evidence from Paul's own words that the sin he fell prey to was in the world around him. So why does he now say that sin was in him as a carnal minded man? Because that is what sin does. It plays with our mind and heart and emotions, thus making it appropriate to speak of it as though in us once we have fallen prey to it's influence in the world around us.

Romans 7:18 “For I know that in me, that is, in my flesh, dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me, but to do that which is good [is] not.”
Matthew 5:6 “Blessed are they that hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.”
Luke 4:28 “And they were all filled with wrath in the synagogue, as they heard these things..”

If our mind is carnal nothing much good can fill us. We may yet desire to do good but the ability is not present with us. We may even delight in the Law of God while yet being only Carnal in our thinking. We see that every day among those whose zeal is for that Old Law yet they have rejected Christ. They delight in the Law in their inward man, but having rejected Christ and so remaining carnal in their thinking, they are rendered unable to really benefit from that delight. Paul told us that in a couple of different places: Romans 10:2-3 “For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. For being ignorant of God's righteousness, and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God.”

Paul tells us about himself: “though I was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: howbeit I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief..” 1 Timothy 1:13

And yet Paul also tells us about himself: “and I advanced in the Jews' religion beyond many of mine own age among my countrymen, being more exceedingly zealous for the traditions of my fathers.” Galatians 1:14

So we see that it is a huge mistake to think Paul is not yet speaking of the carnal minded man before Christ as you read on in Romans 7:19-24.

But in verse 24 Paul speaks clearly of only the future hope of being delivered from that death by means of Jesus Christ and not that he has come to Christ as yet. So he is speaking of the hope a carnal minded man can look forward to:
24 “Wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me out of the body of this death?”

How then do we correctly understand verse 25?
25 “I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then I of myself with the mind, indeed, serve the law of God; but with the [carnal mind of] flesh the law of sin.”

In verse 25 Paul has begun speaking as he did back in verses 5 and 6, set free from the carnal mind. Review verses 5 and 6. And in the second half of verse 25 Paul shows keen awareness of never returning to that carnal mind.

That completes Romans 7.

Mountain_Climber · Aug 10, 2015

JesusBeliever said:
I hear you loud and clear MC and see that you have been given eyes to see some of my faults and flaws. It's one of the reasons I'm often quite hesitant to speak (or in this case write) lest I find my feet standing where they ought not. It was not my intention to be an arbitrator at all and honestly it still isn't. I had actually considered walking away quietly and looking for another thread, but I felt convicted that it wasn't the loving thing to do and besides I'd probably just run into the same thing somewhere else. So I felt encouraged to remain on this thread and express my perspective in a spirit of love for you both. And I must admit that my own analogy of the mashed potatoes made me wince a bit. And had you not already replied I might have been tempted to delete it. So thanks for taking it on the chin, and replying in a spirit of love. Same goes for you Ken. This alone has taught me a lot.
I agree, absolutely! It may not be obvious to you both, but the reason I felt drawn into this debate is because MC's rebuke of you seemed to be in direct relation to something you had said to me (see post #331) and I couldn't help but feel that any jabs and putdowns sent your way by MC were as much applicable to me as you, especially when I found myself agreeing with you. Note that MC replied in post #338 to your comments to me:

In the same post MC said:
I think the greatest assumption MC makes here is that none of us have experienced this same crash in our lives and been taught by God regarding Paul's writings. He assumes total knowledge of Paul's writings and thus everyone who disagrees with him he regards as wresting with the Apostle Paul's writings, when in fact it may be him that is still wresting on some points (No disrespect intended MC). No matter how much I think I understand Paul's writings and have huge respect for them I would never assume total knowledge of them for reasons I mentioned previously. Whenever people quote 2 Peter 3:16 they seem to always overlook the preceding verse which says:

"Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless. And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction." 2Pe 3:14-16

It was only a few years ago that I noticed this statement by Peter - seeing that ye... account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation... As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things. And once I started to approach Paul's writings from this perspective, my view of them and salvation in general completely changed. No longer do I ask the Lord to help me long-suffer others, but I ask Him to forgive me when I fall short of His continual example of long-suffering me! I no longer think that he chose me coz I was more righteous than others but because I was stiff-necked in thinking I was. Like the turtle in the race with the hare, I think those He chooses to give a head start is coz He knows the hare is gonna catch up and cross the finish line with the turtle. The Apostle Paul was one such hare, and according to him there have been and will be others just like him:

"This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief. Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting." 1Ti 1:15-16

I could go on but feel I might be getting a bit off track and possibly thinking out loud, so I'll leave it here.

You are right. I am absolutely certain I understand Paul. But then I was not given any of that understanding by man and I don't see how I can doubt how he taught the understanding of Paul to me. If I did doubt it the way he went about it I would be just as well off to renounce the faith altogether.

I won't go into the details of how he did it but for to say it was the wildest and most amazing experience a man could ever have.

I added to post 403 and what I added shows how easy it is to draw wrong conclusions about the things that I or anyone says. The paragraph reference and the addition is as follows:

When one is spiritually dead, there must first be a recognition of righteousness before that man can be reckoned as once again being alive. Otherwise God is unwilling to show mercy toward that man and recognize that man as having life for him to bless with help. It is for that reason that this imputed early righteousness, which yet needs to be polished and made to shine, is reckoned through the finding of faith in a man. Romans 4:3 “For what saith the scripture? And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned unto him for righteousness.”

Added: Let it be known that in the above paragraph that is not a selfish thing on God's part because it is for our own good that he be that way, else we would learn nothing and never be able to change. So in that way this, too, is a part of his grace which knows tough love and does not show misplaced kindness.

As you can well imagine, what I said about God being unwilling to show mercy to those with no faith is a thing many might take offense at. But the reality is that he is unwilling to do so where there is no faith for a righteous and unselfish reason. It is not at all that he does not love such a person.

Ken Brown · Aug 10, 2015

Ron Hackel said:
HEBREWS 7 : 18&19 "The former regulation is set aside because it was weak and useless (for the law made nothing perfect), and a better hope is introduced, by which we draw near to God."

The word perfect is also translated as mature in other Scripture.

HEBREWS 10 : 1 "The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming-not the realities themselves. For this reason it can never, by the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, make perfect (mature) those who draw near to worship."

HEBREWS 4 : 2 "For we also have had the gospel preached to us, just as they did; but the message they heard was of no value to them, because those who heard did not combine it with faith."

PSALM 78 : 32 "In spite of all this, they kept on SINNING; in spite of his wonders, they did not believe."

If you read the entire Psalm it chronicles the first 3 months after slavery. God led them like a loving father. No matter how much they grumbled he simply did what they needed. As the Psalm says they refused to believe in this type of god. After three months he finally relented and gave them the god they desired. Stephen varifies it in Acts 7:39. Paul said that Moses was so afraid at Mount Sinai that he was trembling with fear (Heb 12:21). Yet he told the Jews, "Don't be afraid God has come to test you" (Ex 20:20). He said this because even though he was terrified at the sight he knew it was really not the picture of God but rather God coming as a pagan god to see if they would follow that type of god. And the answer they gave was YES!!!

GALATIANS 3 : 19 "What, then, was the purpose of the law? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come."

Jesus kept saying, "My time has not yet come. The time that Jesus was to arrive as the anointed was prophesied by Gabriel to Daniel. Since the Seed was to come through the woman (symbolically God's chosen people- he is the groom, they are the bride) they had to be kept together as a people. Since they refused to believe in a god of love as he is, they needed a way to think God was okay with them.

Everytime they did something wrong they would sacrifice an animal. What happened the next time they did something wrong? They'd have to trot out another sheep or cow. As Paul said these sacrifices made year after year NEVER made their faith perfect (mature) in a loving God. That is why it says that Jesus was the end of the law. Jesus showed the true character of God. If you compare Jesus to the legalistic god at Mount Sinai, there is no comparison. That is why Paul said:

2 CORINTHIANS 3 : 9 "If the ministry that condemns men is glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness."

If you go to Romans 3 : 9-12, Paul says there is no one righteous, THAT NO ONE UNDERSTOOD GOD. He said that both Jews and Gentiles were under sin. If you back up to Psalm 78:32 the Jews sin was not believing in a God of love. Paul said the Jews and Gentiles were both under sin-both sacrificed to appease their gods. Satan has the entire world bamboozled into using the wrong definitions of sin and righteousness.

Shalom Ron, thank you for responding, at least I think you were responding to me, and if you were, could you please state why you think Elohim "added the Torah," and a related question, what do you think the Old Covenant (Torah) was added to? To me, your response was more as to why you think the New Covenant was added to the Old Covenant (Torah), and that could be addressed also, but I was asking as to WHY did Elohim add the Old Covenant (Torah)? And if you just quote a scripture for your answer, that Scripture MAY not be correctly translated, so your commentary would be appreciated. Thanks, and Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew.

P.S. Although in trying to follow your answer, it appears you think that the LOVING "God" that brought the children of Israel out of Egypt decided to add the Torah because they just refused to obey him and he gave them the WICKED "god" of the OT with "adding" the Torah to (??).

Ken Brown · Aug 10, 2015

JesusBeliever said:
I hear you loud and clear MC and see that you have been given eyes to see some of my faults and flaws. It's one of the reasons I'm often quite hesitant to speak (or in this case write) lest I find my feet standing where they ought not. It was not my intention to be an arbitrator at all and honestly it still isn't. I had actually considered walking away quietly and looking for another thread, but I felt convicted that it wasn't the loving thing to do and besides I'd probably just run into the same thing somewhere else. So I felt encouraged to remain on this thread and express my perspective in a spirit of love for you both. And I must admit that my own analogy of the mashed potatoes made me wince a bit. And had you not already replied I might have been tempted to delete it. So thanks for taking it on the chin, and replying in a spirit of love. Same goes for you Ken. This alone has taught me a lot.
I agree, absolutely! It may not be obvious to you both, but the reason I felt drawn into this debate is because MC's rebuke of you seemed to be in direct relation to something you had said to me (see post #331) and I couldn't help but feel that any jabs and putdowns sent your way by MC were as much applicable to me as you, especially when I found myself agreeing with you. Note that MC replied in post #338 to your comments to me:

In the same post MC said:
I think the greatest assumption MC makes here is that none of us have experienced this same crash in our lives and been taught by God regarding Paul's writings. He assumes total knowledge of Paul's writings and thus everyone who disagrees with him he regards as wresting with the Apostle Paul's writings, when in fact it may be him that is still wresting on some points (No disrespect intended MC). No matter how much I think I understand Paul's writings and have huge respect for them I would never assume total knowledge of them for reasons I mentioned previously. Whenever people quote 2 Peter 3:16 they seem to always overlook the preceding verse which says:

"Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless. And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction." 2Pe 3:14-16

It was only a few years ago that I noticed this statement by Peter - seeing that ye... account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation... As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things. And once I started to approach Paul's writings from this perspective, my view of them and salvation in general completely changed. No longer do I ask the Lord to help me long-suffer others, but I ask Him to forgive me when I fall short of His continual example of long-suffering me! I no longer think that he chose me coz I was more righteous than others but because I was stiff-necked in thinking I was. Like the turtle in the race with the hare, I think those He chooses to give a head start is coz He knows the hare is gonna catch up and cross the finish line with the turtle. The Apostle Paul was one such hare, and according to him there have been and will be others just like him:

"This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief. Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting." 1Ti 1:15-16

I could go on but feel I might be getting a bit off track and possibly thinking out loud, so I'll leave it here.

Shalom JB, I again appreciate your effort and attitude, thank you. Concerning post 331, when Adam and Eve's eyes were OPENED, they realized they were naked, they didn't become naked, but one thing changed about them, they became like the Elohim, KNOWING GOOD and EVIL (Genesis 3:5, Genesis 3:22). Their eyes were opened and they realized it would have been GOOD to have obeyed, and it was EVIL to disobey. This KNOWLEDGE of KNOWING good and evil, made them realize they were NAKED (Genesis 3:7), and nakedness is the condition they were created in when they became "living souls," but they just didn't realize their shameful condition, so they felt no shame (Genesis 2:25). And as Paul states, the FIRST Adam was MADE a "living soul" that was created NAKED (mortal, weak, dishonorable, and corruptible) (1 Corinthians 15:35-49). And the Spiritual Man is just the opposite, but Paul makes it very clear that according to the PLAN of Elohim, the CARNAL or NATURAL man was FIRST, not the Spiritual Man (1 Corinthians 15:46). Everyone who feels that Elohim created Adam and Eve as sinless beings, with NO propensity towards sin, really doesn't grasp how Elohim is in the PROCESS of CREATING a Spiritual Being that IS sinless from the heart (all of those who OVERCOME the FLESH/SIN that they were sold or placed under, Romans 7:14, Romans 11:32, Romans 8:20-21). It makes no sense whatsoever to think that Elohim was trying to place fleshly, natural, carnal man here on "paradise earth" for all eternity, when the Scriptures state that Yeshua was SLAIN FROM the foundation of the world (Revelation 13:8, 1 Peter 1:20, Matthew 25:34, Ephesians 1:4), so why would Elohim implement a PLAN (living on paradise earth for all eternity) which would go against all of those previous Scriptures?

I do have another question. When Eve stated to the Serpent that Elohim had said that the tree could not be touched (Genesis 3:3), was she speaking the truth, or was her naked flesh embellishing the truth (not to eat of the tree)? Did Elohim really say that the "fruit" of the tree should not be touched? Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew.

Mountain_Climber · Aug 10, 2015

Ken Brown said:
Shalom JB, I again appreciate your effort and attitude, thank you. Concerning post 331, when Adam and Eve's eyes were OPENED, they realized they were naked, they didn't become naked, but one thing changed about them, they became like the Elohim, KNOWING GOOD and EVIL (Genesis 3:5, Genesis 3:22). Their eyes were opened and they realized it would have been GOOD to have obeyed, and it was EVIL to disobey. This KNOWLEDGE of KNOWING good and evil, made them realize they were NAKED (Genesis 3:7), and nakedness is the condition they were created in when they became "living souls," but they just didn't realize their shameful condition, so they felt no shame (Genesis 2:25). And as Paul states, the FIRST Adam was MADE a "living soul" that was created NAKED (mortal, weak, dishonorable, and corruptible) (1 Corinthians 15:35-49). And the Spiritual Man is just the opposite, but Paul makes it very clear that according to the PLAN of Elohim, the CARNAL or NATURAL man was FIRST, not the Spiritual Man (1 Corinthians 15:46). Everyone who feels that Elohim created Adam and Eve as sinless beings, with NO propensity towards sin, really doesn't grasp how Elohim is in the PROCESS of CREATING a Spiritual Being that IS sinless from the heart (all of those who OVERCOME the FLESH/SIN that they were sold or placed under, Romans 7:14, Romans 11:32, Romans 8:20-21). It makes no sense whatsoever to think that Elohim was trying to place fleshly, natural, carnal man here on "paradise earth" for all eternity, when the Scriptures state that Yeshua was SLAIN FROM the foundation of the world (Revelation 13:8, 1 Peter 1:20, Matthew 25:34, Ephesians 1:4), so why would Elohim implement a PLAN (living on paradise earth for all eternity) which would go against all of those previous Scriptures?

I do have another question. When Eve stated to the Serpent that Elohim had said that the tree could not be touched (Genesis 3:3), was she speaking the truth, or was her naked flesh embellishing the truth (not to eat of the tree)? Did Elohim really say that the "fruit" of the tree should not be touched? Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew.

Utter judgmental horse dung.

Just what do you think it means: my statement's quote: "It is for that reason that this imputed early righteousness, which yet needs to be polished and made to shine, is reckoned through the finding of faith in a man. Romans 4:3 “For what saith the scripture? And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned unto him for righteousness.”

That sir is how Adam was first created. With the clean status of imputed righteousness just like we start out.

In his innocence faith was no problem for him as he had no doubt of God. Your failure to recognize that has been due to you feeling you are flawless in what you judge.

In other words you are wrong to read into the scripture that there was shame in that first state of nakedness, and I explained in a previous post to you this very thing about that first state of nakedness.

That nakedness was declared innocent by God's acceptance of Adam, having created him and beginning to work with him which required an imputation of righteousness, so your comment that his initial nakedness was shameful is a refusal to accept the judgment of God.

Any idiot knows that Adam started out corruptible. He came to be corrupted. So he had to start out corruptible, But the man of wisdom knows that before sin entered via the serpent's help, his corruptible nature due to yet needing to perfect his spiritual mind was covered by God's love and imputation to him of righteousness. So he was not seen as naked because he had that robe to wear from God.

It has been you confusing a potentially corruptible mental nature with in and of itself being sin that I have opposed because i see clearly that God covered that over with imputed righteousness until Adam willfully chose to sin.

So long as I am having to reply to your innuendo which any idiot can see refers to me, I will remind you of what you were claiming about that first being natural:

Your post number 341: "Adam and Eve were NAKED, and they were not ashamed, yet almost all of the Scriptures in describing nakedness renders it as something that is "shameful," and it needs to be covered. Nakedness or being naked is symbolic of being sinful. Adam and Eve were created "sinful" and they didn't realize it."

JesusBeliever · Aug 10, 2015

Mountain_Climber said:
You are right. I am absolutely certain I understand Paul. But then I was not given any of that understanding by man and I don't see how I can doubt how he taught the understanding of Paul to me. If I did doubt it the way he went about it I would be just as well off to renounce the faith altogether.

I won't go into the details of how he did it but for to say it was the wildest and most amazing experience a man could ever have.

I can relate to this a lot as the things I have learned from Paul were also not from man. Though I still would never claim total knowledge. Because blindness wouldn't be blindness if I knew what it was I was blind to. Do you understand what I'm trying to say. I only know what I know, I don't know what I don't know, until I learn it and realise that I didn't know it before. I guess you could say that we can only see our blindness in hindsight, after we've been healed from that particular blindness. But should we then assume that we have been healed from all blindness? The reason I think this is so important to even mention is because of the "blindness in part" that Paul speaks of regarding Israel (Rom 11:25). Have we not been made citizens of Israel(Ephesians 2:12)? And if so, doesn't this "blindness in part" apply to us as well? Personally, I'm not confident it doesn't so I choose to err on the side of caution.

Ken Brown said:
Shalom JB, I again appreciate your effort and attitude, thank you. Concerning post 331, when Adam and Eve's eyes were OPENED, they realized they were naked, they didn't become naked, but one thing changed about them, they became like the Elohim, KNOWING GOOD and EVIL (Genesis 3:5, Genesis 3:22). Their eyes were opened and they realized it would have been GOOD to have obeyed, and it was EVIL to disobey. This KNOWLEDGE of KNOWING good and evil, made them realize they were NAKED (Genesis 3:7), and nakedness is the condition they were created in when they became "living souls," but they just didn't realize their shameful condition, so they felt no shame (Genesis 2:25). And as Paul states, the FIRST Adam was MADE a "living soul" that was created NAKED (mortal, weak, dishonorable, and corruptible) (1 Corinthians 15:35-49). And the Spiritual Man is just the opposite, but Paul makes it very clear that according to the PLAN of Elohim, the CARNAL or NATURAL man was FIRST, not the Spiritual Man (1 Corinthians 15:46). Everyone who feels that Elohim created Adam and Eve as sinless beings, with NO propensity towards sin, really doesn't grasp how Elohim is in the PROCESS of CREATING a Spiritual Being that IS sinless from the heart (all of those who OVERCOME the FLESH/SIN that they were sold or placed under, Romans 7:14, Romans 11:32, Romans 8:20-21).

So far we seem in agreement.

Mountain_Climber said:
It makes no sense whatsoever to think that Elohim was trying to place fleshly, natural, carnal man here on "paradise earth" for all eternity, when the Scriptures state that Yeshua was SLAIN FROM the foundation of the world (Revelation 13:8, 1 Peter 1:20, Matthew 25:34, Ephesians 1:4), so why would Elohim implement a PLAN (living on paradise earth for all eternity) which would go against all of those previous Scriptures?

This part seems a little obscure to my hearing. Can you please clarify what you're saying? Are you saying we will live on earth or won't live on earth coz I can't tell so I don't know how to answer?

Mountain_Climber said:
I do have another question. When Eve stated to the Serpent that Elohim had said that the tree could not be touched (Genesis 3:3), was she speaking the truth, or was her naked flesh embellishing the truth (not to eat of the tree)? Did Elohim really say that the "fruit" of the tree should not be touched? Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew.

Again I'm not sure what your question is or how it relates to the first part of your post? A little confused sorry.

Ron Hackel · Aug 10, 2015

Ken

God is not the legalistic tyrant portrayed at Mount Sinai. he gave them the god they desired with all the rules and regulations. God's law is perfect. It is the perfect way for us to live. If we had a guide or manual on how to live it would be God's law. God did not want to do it as he did at Mount Sinai though. Jesus showed us at the Sermon on the Mount how God would do it as a loving Father. That is why Paul gave the quote I showed in 2 Cor. If the laws that brought punishment were good how much better the laws from a loving Father just giving us advice. God said in Zech 4:6 that he doesn't demand allegiance to his laws, he earns it by the truth. Paul called it God's discipline. Let's say one of God's laws was don't jump off a ten story building. The sin of the Jews was not trusting in a loving Father. Paul says the wages of sin is death. Satan says good quote to distort. Satan says God told you not to jump off the building and you did so now God is going to kill you. NOT WHAT PAUL MEANT!!!!!!!!!!!! The pavement would do the killing. The consequence of your actions is what kills you. That is why Paul calls it God's discipline. As a loving parent he allows you to do what you want and learn through the consequence of your actions. His laws are perfect. Sooner or later you'll figure out jumping off a ten story building as your Father said was not a good idea. Is there a better way of learning?

The reason we do the immoral acts we do is because we have freewill. Satan has everyone thinking mankind is to have freewill. It was one of his lies he spread in heaven that God created beings should have freewill. With freewill you usually choose the option that is best for you. We all have cars and think little of carpooling. How has this worked out in Iraq? we have killed thousands over there. we don't say it is because of the oil, but we wouldn't have gone there if there wouldn't have been the oil fields. In Sudan over a million Christians were genocided, we're not there. Only an all knowing God can orchestrate billions of beings in their choices so all will be happy. I can try to convince you, but its God's word. This 6000 years has been God demonstrating the results of freewill-the consequence of having freewill.

JEREMIAH 10 : 23 "I know, O Lord, that a man's life is not his own; it is not for man to direct his steps."

JesusBeliever · Aug 10, 2015

Mountain_Climber said:
Utter judgmental horse dung.

MC, you know what I don't understand? Is how in one breath you can say:

Mountain_Climber said:

It was Satan that sold us the idea we need all that knowledge. And we see many have built their religious beliefs centering around that lie, believing that it is the lack of that knowledge which cripples us, knowing full well God had said not to even touch it.

Click to expand...

And then in the next, seem to totally lose your cool about someone not having all the knowledge that you claim to have. As if our salvation depends on the very thing that you say it doesn't depend on.

With this being said, I can see where Ken's question about "touch" may have come from. Is this what made you lose your cool? Innuendo again? I don't know guys, but it's starting to feel like you are both playing word games with each other and I'm allowing myself to get caught in the middle.

Ron Hackel · Aug 10, 2015

Jesus Believer

Go to Isaiah 6 and look at what God had Isaiah prophesy. Everything God had a prophet prophesy came true. Would a God of love not want us to see or hear or understand the truth? If we want freewill would a God of love give it to us? Scripture says that Lucifer was created perfect in wisdom. As long as we have open minds, open to suggestions, do you think we have any chance against the greatest con artist ever created? Do you think Satan would be clouding our minds to the truth, so as God said the people will not see, hear or understand. If God is proving freewill to be the disaster that it is, how long will it be allowed? Scripture says until all the cities lay in ruin. Since all scripture must be completed and this has never happened might this be referring to the end of this world? Scripture says it blows up because of what we do. God proves everything not by demanding but by the consequence of actions. When the earth blows up Lucifer is proven wrong and trust is restored in the universe. The original sin if you want to call it that was mistrust of God which Lucifer started in heaven. As God said there would be no more sin after this. No more mistrust in God because of the demonstration. After trust is restored God is going to put his Spirit in all mankind. How we treat our children and siblings and how we rule this planet will give the universe a picture of their God since God lives in unapproachable light that no one has seen or can see.

Mountain_Climber · Aug 10, 2015

JesusBeliever said:
MC, you know what I don't understand? Is how in one breath you can say:
And then in the next, seem to totally lose your cool about someone not having all the knowledge that you claim to have. As if our salvation depends on the very thing that you say it doesn't depend on.

With this being said, I can see where Ken's question about "touch" may have come from. Is this what made you lose your cool? Innuendo again? I don't know guys, but it's starting to feel like you are both playing word games with each other and I'm allowing myself to get caught in the middle.

Please correct the misappropriated quotes in your post 414. As I said only the very first quote and it was ken who said and asked all after that.

As far as me losing my cool stop being an idiot. I have done no such thing but to your mind. Don't be the kind of emotional wimp that said those same things about the way Paul taught. They accused him of the very same thing when he placed a few strong words in his letters. If you will remember, he tells us about it himself.

Additionally, I have completed my posts of Romans 6 and Romans 7. I challenge to refute what I said in those posts.

I suggest you grow up. Your idea of how love operates is but another recreation of that Old Law and it's bondage which was necessary by sin.

The out of context quote of me from another completely different post that refuses to come through in this post is clever of you but even that comment is true. Use it or lose it is your choice to make.

That is nothing like what I do by posting a comment from another person's comments when that person denies having said it. And then I show the courtesy of telling the post number I took it from.

Ken Brown · Aug 10, 2015

Ron Hackel said:
Ken

God is not the legalistic tyrant portrayed at Mount Sinai. he gave them the god they desired with all the rules and regulations. God's law is perfect. It is the perfect way for us to live. If we had a guide or manual on how to live it would be God's law. God did not want to do it as he did at Mount Sinai though. Jesus showed us at the Sermon on the Mount how God would do it as a loving Father. That is why Paul gave the quote I showed in 2 Cor. If the laws that brought punishment were good how much better the laws from a loving Father just giving us advice. God said in Zech 4:6 that he doesn't demand allegiance to his laws, he earns it by the truth. Paul called it God's discipline. Let's say one of God's laws was don't jump off a ten story building. The sin of the Jews was not trusting in a loving Father. Paul says the wages of sin is death. Satan says good quote to distort. Satan says God told you not to jump off the building and you did so now God is going to kill you. NOT WHAT PAUL MEANT!!!!!!!!!!!! The pavement would do the killing. The consequence of your actions is what kills you. That is why Paul calls it God's discipline. As a loving parent he allows you to do what you want and learn through the consequence of your actions. His laws are perfect. Sooner or later you'll figure out jumping off a ten story building as your Father said was not a good idea. Is there a better way of learning?

The reason we do the immoral acts we do is because we have freewill. Satan has everyone thinking mankind is to have freewill. It was one of his lies he spread in heaven that God created beings should have freewill. With freewill you usually choose the option that is best for you. We all have cars and think little of carpooling. How has this worked out in Iraq? we have killed thousands over there. we don't say it is because of the oil, but we wouldn't have gone there if there wouldn't have been the oil fields. In Sudan over a million Christians were genocided, we're not there. Only an all knowing God can orchestrate billions of beings in their choices so all will be happy. I can try to convince you, but its God's word. This 6000 years has been God demonstrating the results of freewill-the consequence of having freewill.

JEREMIAH 10 : 23 "I know, O Lord, that a man's life is not his own; it is not for man to direct his steps."

Shalom Ron, I don't have time to respond right now, but I did want to give you some advice I wish some would have given me. I'm not sure if you see where on some posts the bible verse can show up with a "mouse over" and if you click on it, it will take you to the Bible program for the site. The way to make it work is to put the bible verse in exactly as the Bible program of the site spells it. Example (Acts of the Apostles 3:26), instead of Acts 3:26, and then it will inbed those Scriptures into your posts. Just go to the Bible program at the top and you will see how they spell each book, and use their spelling. Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew.

Mountain_Climber · Aug 10, 2015

I will tell you all that I am not a member or supporter of any organized religion by virtue of you having been programed by them to be emotional wimps through a manufactured of idea of love as a petty list of do and don't.

I believe God will soon wipe the earth clean of all your religions.

I would bet you even take that as me loosing my cool. LOL.

You are all but a bunch of brats and God will soon spank your behinds. Very soon.

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