Parsha Eikev and chosen-ness

Reading the Torah parsha yesterday, I noticed that G_d says (relayed by Moses) that He is giving us the land of Israel not because of our virtue, but because of the even worse lack-of-virtue of the current inhabitants, as well as because He made and intended to keep the promise to our ancestors. It's repeated a total of three times: Not because of our virtue, not because of our virtue, not because of our virtue.

People often say (and I hold this view, too) that G_d did not Choose our people because of our virtue, and I had thought this could be deduced rather easily from the Israelites' interactions with Moses and G_d in the Wilderness when coming out of Egypt, but hadn't realized it was stated directly by G_d. Seems like a strong argument to me.

Also, the passage reminded me much of a parent addressing their terribly-behaved children. "I'm not doing this because you've been good, but believe it or not, your brothers and sisters have been even worse!" "I'm only doing this because I promised so-and-so that I would, not because you've been good." Or something to that effect, heh.

This is not the first time. See Deut. 4:37.
Also see Eze. 20:33.

Tumah said:

This is not the first time. See Deut. 4:37.
Also see Eze. 20:33.

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True, but in Va'etchanan, to me, it still seems to be recognizing Israel's non-virtue by omission, i.e. by what it doesn't say. The Torah says that G_d gives them the Land out of love for their ancestors (implied: not because of your virtue). I just think it's more straightforward when written in Eikev (Deut. 9:4-6).

Yosef-Firstborn said:

True, but in Va'etchanan, to me, it still seems to be recognizing Israel's non-virtue by omission, i.e. by what it doesn't say. The Torah says that G_d gives them the Land out of love for their ancestors (implied: not because of your virtue). I just think it's more straightforward when written in Eikev (Deut. 9:4-6).

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Its definitely saying that pretty straightforwardly.
I think that's a pretty strong basis for an argument to say that since we weren't chosen for our virtue, we can't be discarded for our lack thereof.

Tumah said:

I think that's a pretty strong basis for an argument to say that since we weren't chosen for our virtue, we can't be discarded for our lack thereof.

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So Moses interceding on our behalf was unnecessary or, at least, little more than theater?

Jayhawker Soule said:

So Moses interceding on our behalf was unnecessary or, at least, little more than theater?

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I don't think there is any intercession where the question was whether we will be discarded or not,only decimated.

Tumah said:

I don't think there is any intercession where the question was whether we will be discarded or not,only decimated.

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The threat was to destroy everyone other than Moses. What if Moses had been less virtuous?

Jayhawker Soule said:

The threat was to destroy everyone other than Moses. What if Moses had been less virtuous?

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Than he wouldn't be Moses.
Moses (and his children) are Israelites. So even in that case, there was no threat that we would be replaced. Only that rather than being three common forefathers, there'd be four.

Tumah said:

Than he wouldn't be Moses.
Moses (and his children) are Israelites. So even in that case, there was no threat that we would be replaced. Only that rather than being three common forefathers, there'd be four.

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But then your argument is not that "we can't be discarded for our lack [of virtue]" but that there will inevitably be at least one person virtuous enough to counteract/compensate for it.

Jayhawker Soule said:

But then your argument is not that "we can't be discarded for our lack [of virtue]" but that there will inevitably be at least one person virtuous enough to counteract/compensate for it.

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I didn't say anything about Moses' virtue, you did.
You're trying to say that if Moses wasn't virtuous, then G-d would have wiped everyone out including Moses. That's not an argument: maybe if that were the case, G-d wouldn't have threatened to wipe everyone out in the first place, so that He wouldn't be forced to go against His promise.

Good point.