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Testing the Bible

Matthew78

aspiring biblical scholar
I am currently working on a series of articles right now on what I consider to be flaws in the Bible. These are examples of what I consider to be discrepancies, errors, and failed prophecies. I want to know if anyone is interested in going through them with me. I especially invite anyone who believes that the Bible is divinely inspired, whether just the Hebrew Bible or both the Hebrew Bible and Christian New Testament. I just want to present examples of what I consider to be flaws and debate with believers over whether or not these flaws are truly flaws. I am not asking for a formal debate; just a dialogue in which I present what I consider to be flaws and believers present their solutions to the problem and I can try to rebut their proposals.

I want to keep this as civil as I can. I realize that in arguments like these, it's easy for people to lose their cool and start posting things that they regret. So, I am hoping for civility even though I expect some discussions to get rather heated. I have no problem acknolwedging that I could be wrong and if it's proven to be the case, I will be happy to admit it. I won't be able to post anything right away such as tonight or tomorrow night; the fact of the matter is that I still want to reply to a thread regarding Noam Chomsky in another forum. So, I think I might be able to start posting later this week.

Is anyone interested?
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
In what way do you think "discrepancies" and "errors" ought to be considered as "flaws?" The bible, while inspired was never meant to be perfect.

By what measure do you assess that a prophecy has "failed," since the aim of a prophecy is not prediction of the future?
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
I am currently working on a series of articles right now on what I consider to be flaws in the Bible.
Since this has been done ad nauseum, I'd be curious to know why. Do you believe you have something novel to add?
 
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Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
im happy to contribute. I dont believe there are any discrepancies in the bible so im sure i'll be able to provide some input on each of the supposed discrepancies.
 

BSM1

What? Me worry?
I am currently working on a series of articles right now on what I consider to be flaws in the Bible. These are examples of what I consider to be discrepancies, errors, and failed prophecies. I want to know if anyone is interested in going through them with me. I especially invite anyone who believes that the Bible is divinely inspired, whether just the Hebrew Bible or both the Hebrew Bible and Christian New Testament. I just want to present examples of what I consider to be flaws and debate with believers over whether or not these flaws are truly flaws. I am not asking for a formal debate; just a dialogue in which I present what I consider to be flaws and believers present their solutions to the problem and I can try to rebut their proposals.

I want to keep this as civil as I can. I realize that in arguments like these, it's easy for people to lose their cool and start posting things that they regret. So, I am hoping for civility even though I expect some discussions to get rather heated. I have no problem acknolwedging that I could be wrong and if it's proven to be the case, I will be happy to admit it. I won't be able to post anything right away such as tonight or tomorrow night; the fact of the matter is that I still want to reply to a thread regarding Noam Chomsky in another forum. So, I think I might be able to start posting later this week.

Is anyone interested?

Can you give a for instance?
 

Fingy

Member
I am not a believer but I can think of a number of discrepancies in the NT that I would like to bring up and discuss.
 

Matthew78

aspiring biblical scholar
In what way do you think "discrepancies" and "errors" ought to be considered as "flaws?" The bible, while inspired was never meant to be perfect.

The doctrine that I am doing research in order to refute is the doctrine of biblical inerrancy. There are a number of people who believe that the Hebrew Bible and New Testament are inspired by God and are, therefore, inerrant, and consequently infallible. The belief that the Hebrew Bible and New Testament are divinly inspired in their entirely is known as the doctrine of verbal plenary inspiration.

When you state that the Bible, while inspired, was never meant to be perfect, I must ask you:

1.) What do you mean by inspired?
2.) Never meant to be perfect according to whom?

What I have in mind is the Chicago Statement on BIblical Inerrancy that is championed by Evangelicals like Norman Geisler. I have devoted my whole life to becoming a biblical scholar so that I can refute this nonsense.

By what measure do you assess that a prophecy has "failed," since the aim of a prophecy is not prediction of the future?

Well, it depends on the prophecy in question. I have in mind prophecies that are given in the Hebrew Bible that I am convinced that have gone unfulfilled and certain passages show it to be a failed prophecy.

Why do you state that the aim of a prophecy is not a prediction of the future? Most Christians that I know of will strongly disagree with you. Most Christians will cite Micah 5:2 as a prediction of the future; namely that the Messiah, Jesus, will be born in Bethlehem of Judah. They will cite many passages that are predictions of the future and not just messianic prophecies. They will cite prophecies about the future of Tyre and Egypt as examples of predictive prophecy.

I can agree that not all prophecy was understood as predictive.
 

Matthew78

aspiring biblical scholar
Since this has been done ad nauseum, I'd be curious to know why. Do you believe you have something novel to add?

I don't know if I have anything novel to add. I realize that this has been done many times. In fact, you might have read, in your lifetime, many of the same works that I have and you may well be as unimpressed as I am. I have read works like The Skeptical Review by the late Farrell Till, Is it God's Word by Joseph Wheless, The Skeptics Annotated Bible by Steve Wells, and others. It was articles from Till's publication that convinced me when I was 24 years old that Evangelical Christianity was wrong and its doctrines flawed.

However, many of these works are mixed bags. For example, while I agree with Farrell Till on some flaws in the Protestant canonical Bible, I disagree with him about others. It's the same with Wheless and Wells. Every so often I find myself agreeing with Wheless but there is a lot he gets wrong.The same with Wells; I find myself agreeing with quite a few articles on the SAB but a lot of it is simply, in my judgment, wrong. I understand that every book written for the purpose of debunking the fundamentalist/Evangelical doctrine of inerrancy is not perfect and is bound to contain flaws of its own.

However, I do think it's worthwhile to discuss any alleged instances of flaws. I am interested in separating the good arguments from the bad. I also believe that people who believe that the doctrine of biblical inerrancy is sound should be given a chance to present their case and the issue should be discussed as respectfully as possible. I have every intention of being as civil as I can and having a spirited discussion.
 

Matthew78

aspiring biblical scholar
im happy to contribute. I dont believe there are any discrepancies in the bible so im sure i'll be able to provide some input on each of the supposed discrepancies.

Sweet! Thank you for voluntaring to contribute! I look forward to dialoguing with you. :)
 

Matthew78

aspiring biblical scholar
I haven't been on lately except to post about a family emergency. I had a few other domestic issues such as doing some much-needed house cleaning which finally got underway. The last time I was posting regularly, I got into a conversation with Mr. Spinkles about Noam Chomsky. While I very respectfully disagree with him and I still consider Chomsky to be dishonest, to be quite frank, it's a topic that I don't have much interest in discussing anymore at the moment. Perhaps in the future I might take it up again but I have changed priorities because discussing biblical errancy is something that I am much more interested. So I plan to start posting in the biblical debates area and I welcome anyone to participate and add their two cents.
 
Hopefully this scripture will enter the conversation somewhere:

--Jeremiah 8:8, “‘How can you say, “We are wise, for we have the law of the LORD,”
when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely?' "



Peace to you.




--John 14:1, Jesus said, "Let not your hearts be troubled. You believe in 'God'; believe 'Also' in Me."

In the love of Christ, sincerely, The Real Milk Man.
God and His Son loves you, and I do too!
Whatever is the overflow of the heart, is what comes out of the mouth.
 

Reptillian

Hamburgler Extraordinaire
3ovh5c.jpg
 

12jtartar

Active Member
Premium Member
I am currently working on a series of articles right now on what I consider to be flaws in the Bible. These are examples of what I consider to be discrepancies, errors, and failed prophecies. I want to know if anyone is interested in going through them with me. I especially invite anyone who believes that the Bible is divinely inspired, whether just the Hebrew Bible or both the Hebrew Bible and Christian New Testament. I just want to present examples of what I consider to be flaws and debate with believers over whether or not these flaws are truly flaws. I am not asking for a formal debate; just a dialogue in which I present what I consider to be flaws and believers present their solutions to the problem and I can try to rebut their proposals.

I want to keep this as civil as I can. I realize that in arguments like these, it's easy for people to lose their cool and start posting things that they regret. So, I am hoping for civility even though I expect some discussions to get rather heated. I have no problem acknolwedging that I could be wrong and if it's proven to be the case, I will be happy to admit it. I won't be able to post anything right away such as tonight or tomorrow night; the fact of the matter is that I still want to reply to a thread regarding Noam Chomsky in another forum. So, I think I might be able to start posting later this week.

Is anyone interested?

Matthew78,
I would be more than happy to discuss any seeming discrepancy in the Holy Scriptures.
I consider myself to be a Polemic, and I have studied the Bible for over 50 years.
First, no person on earth is capable of translating the entire Bible without making a mistake, so over the years some, errors, even though insignificant, did creep in.
The thing to remember is; God has promised that He would protect His word, from all generations, Ps 12:6,7,
That means that God would make also a way to find any errors, which is by comparing Bibles, both literal Bibles and interlinear Bibles. The only errors ever found were almost exclusively numbers and names. These came about because names and numbers were the same words.
The Dead Sea Scrolls proved that even though the Bible had been copied and translated for hundreds of years, there were almost no inaccuracies. The scrolls that had been hidden for hundreds of years were almost exactly the same as the ones that had been copied hundreds of times.
I am very interested in you showing me even one prophecy that was wrong, in any way, except that it is not the time yet for all to be fulfilled.
 

Mountain_Climber

Active Member
I am currently working on a series of articles right now on what I consider to be flaws in the Bible. These are examples of what I consider to be discrepancies, errors, and failed prophecies. I want to know if anyone is interested in going through them with me. I especially invite anyone who believes that the Bible is divinely inspired, whether just the Hebrew Bible or both the Hebrew Bible and Christian New Testament. I just want to present examples of what I consider to be flaws and debate with believers over whether or not these flaws are truly flaws. I am not asking for a formal debate; just a dialogue in which I present what I consider to be flaws and believers present their solutions to the problem and I can try to rebut their proposals.

I want to keep this as civil as I can. I realize that in arguments like these, it's easy for people to lose their cool and start posting things that they regret. So, I am hoping for civility even though I expect some discussions to get rather heated. I have no problem acknowledging that I could be wrong and if it's proven to be the case, I will be happy to admit it. I won't be able to post anything right away such as tonight or tomorrow night; the fact of the matter is that I still want to reply to a thread regarding Noam Chomsky in another forum. So, I think I might be able to start posting later this week.

Is anyone interested?
There have been discrepancies by error of translation but that would not mean that the original writings had to be in error. There has also been evidence of additions to certain texts long after the texts were first written. Fortunately, both of these kinds of errors are very few.

But here, as follows, is an example of a kind of error that is by perception only: Romans 7:17 "So now it is no more I that do it, but sin which dwelleth in me."

It has been falsely popularized that sin is literally resident in the human body due to failure of men to comprehend what Paul there meant. Jehovah's Witnesses even have fallen prey to this error in thinking. Yet they have far less of an excuse as they understand how God's spirit does not literally take up residence in the human body but rather influences the mind and heart of man from without while dwelling in or amidst the congregation of God's people. And they know that when God's Laws come to be written to a man's heart, then it can be figuratively spoken of as if God is dwelling in the person but that this dwelling is by effect.

Now at least they used to know and teach that in their publications. I cannot say for sure they have not lost that knowledge as I am noticing that something very strange seems to have happened to them in recent times.

Nevertheless, my point is that if they can understand that about the holy spirit of God, then they have little excuse for not seeing that this is the same way Paul's view of sin works. Sin is a spiritual thing. Sin entered the world, just as said at Romans 5:12, where it has the residence among or in the midst of men to influence men, competing with God's holy spirit. And apart from God's holy spirit nothing good can come to dwell in that same sense in our bodies. The spirit of sin would take full control of man's body leading it like it's slave.

To further help in understanding Paul's mindset on this, knowing that Paul represents sin as a cruel taskmaster or slave owner in Romans chapter 6, lets look at sin as though a cruel boss at our place of employment. People would caution us to not let that cruel boss get into us, meaning don't take his cruelties to heart so that they eat away at us. If we have allowed that cruel boss to get into us in that way and are letting his ways torment us we might act that out in various ways that we don't really desire to act, such as grouchiness. And then we could say similar to what Paul said concerning sin at Romans 7:17 ""So now it is no more I that do it, but my boss which dwelleth in me."

Jehovah's Witnesses haven't realized that understanding Paul's view of sin correctly is critical to understanding that Jesus had no sin in him. Yet they will tell you Jesus had no sin in him, and they are right, but can they then also explain Romans 6:10 so as to help people see that when Paul says of Jesus, quote, "he died unto sin once", that this does not mean sin was in him? If they haven't understood Paul's mindset on sin I rather doubt they can explain Paul's comment at Romans 6:17. They are left only to go to places like Hebrews 4:15 and hope others will agree. But others usually will only see, "For we have not a high priest that cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but one that hath been in all points tempted like as we are .." and they conclude that when it says, "yet without sin", that it means only, "without sinning", and not that he did not have sin in him to tempt him. And so Jehovah's Witnesses end up spinning their wheels in the mud with the many rather than making progress helping others see that Jesus had no sin in him.

But when we correctly comprehend Paul's mindset as regards sin we realize that none of us literally have sin dwelling in us, but by effect, as in the case of the holy spirit. Then it becomes easy to see how it is that Jesus had no sin in him and it yet be true that he, quote, "hath been in all points tempted like as we are."

As God reveals these things to me my heart is made to groan for the so many who by buying so tightly into their premature beliefs have locked themselves away from seeing the true picture. But I hold up despite that groaning and keep trying to speak this message God gave to me more clearly each time.

Knowing God's truth is not what saves us. What saves us is applying God's truth to our lives as did Jesus. And just because God granted my pleading with him to give me the wisdom to understand, that in no way means I am guaranteed salvation. It is one thing to speak words of truth and God can raise up stones to do that if he had to, but it is another thing to shape the conduct of one's life after that truth, and that takes practice. It takes practicing what is right as learned through that truth and it takes not excusing ourselves when we mess up. But weaker consciences are often hypercritical in that regard, leading to them being excessively judgmental of others. That too balances out the more we learn truth and practice it, but that is a whole other discussion.
 
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moorea944

Well-Known Member
The only errors that I see in scripture are translation errors. But there are no discrepancies, errors, and failed prophecies by our creator. At all. Failed prophecies? Who are we to say that one of God's prophecies failed... There are prophecies that havent happened yet. Is that what you mean? We dont understand things like God does.
 

psychoslice

Veteran Member
You should be able to write a whole cyclopaedia on flaws in the Bible, its full of them, let me know if you ever publish it, it would be a great laugh lol.
 
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