dust1n
Zindīq
Was looking for immediate gratification. Religious debates is at front of the site and all.
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Can I be Jewish for Halloween?
- Thread starter dust1n
- Start date
Was looking for immediate gratification. Religious debates is at front of the site and all.
psychoslice
Veteran Member
Do what feels right for you, don't go through life under someone's else's hearsay, you will never grow if you do.
Curious George
Veteran Member
I agree. But, if there is no discussion the line will be subjective as well. that is what we have now, subjective lines of what people think is offensive and what other people might find offensive. If we are going to project what we think others might find offensive, we should have a discussion, listen and ask questions. Then perhaps we can have more of a consensus.
I understand this means people will have to question their gut reactions, and even long held beliefs. So, challenge away, question away, listen away, and explain and rationalize to your hearts content. But, if you are offended or think there is reason for offense ask yourself if you are being hypersensitive or over reactive. And if you are not offended, try to understand why others are and try to see why that offense is reasonable.
I will gladly agree that even if I do not find something offensive, if it is reasonable and not attenuated to find offense in an action then that action should be deemed offensive.
That is a pretty low bar. If reasonable minds can differ, then it is offensive. My trouble is, I am not sure it is reasonable for someone to find offense in this costume, without something more. Even this costume cannot be kept to the minimum. No pictures of just a yarmulke. The ideas being declared wrongly stereotypical are far away from the costume.
The actual argument that I have heard comes from @Levite who has explained that tzitzit and yarmulke should be treated with respect. I agree with this. The problem is, I do not see a difference in portraying a Jewish person on stage or t.v. and portraying one at a party where everyone knows it is a portrayal.
I agree that the disrespect of cultural items is offensive speech. I am having trouble understanding how the wearing, albeit with less reverence than some hold, is in itself disrespectful. Wearing a yarmulke or tzitzit is for a character is not in itself disrespectful, so it is not the costume worn by a non-Jew, but the disrespect.
Thus, there must be disrespect involved for it to be offensive. What about a Halloween party, or another party, entails disrespect?
Curious George
Veteran Member
Why should opinions not be subject to challenge. There is merit in listening to opinions on this topic, but there is also merit in challenging those opinions. If you feel I have been in anyway disrespectful I would expect and encourage you to call me out.
Levite
Higher and Higher
Most non-Jews do not even understand what a kipah (yarmulke) and tzitzit really are, what they are for, and what they represent. They have no sense of context and meaning for these things. Which, ordinarily, is fine: non-Jews have no occasions which call for the wearing of these items, and thus no need to understand them. But when they put them on in order to portray either a legitimate Jewish character or merely a Jewish stereotype, then the need arises, out of respect for Jewish culture.
There is, indeed, a difference between a trained actor attempting to bring a Jewish character to life with authenticity and respect, and a random person deciding that they can dress up as a Jew for Halloween, as though "Jew" was no different than "spaceman" or "zombie" or "sexy nurse." That is not an instance of an artist trying to make a Jewish character live, that is an instance of someone stereotyping for a lark.
The fact that the person doing so may claim to have no offense intended does not make it better-- in some ways, it only makes it worse, as it reflects not only lack of understanding of the clothing or ritual items used as "costume props," and ignorance of the culture that produced them, but an ignorance of history, which is full of non-Jews exoticizing Jews, appropriating Jewish culture, and in various ways demeaning Jewish identity. All of which is in the background of someone feeling completely free to dress up as a Jew for Halloween.
Some others have brought up the argument that people sometimes dress up as members of different other cultures-- Greeks, Scots, American Indians, etc., and that is not seen as problematic. I cannot say whether it is or is not seen as problematic: I am not a member of those cultures, and I cannot speak for them. I would personally imagine that probably some members of those cultures, at least, do take offense at stereotypes of their cultures being used by non-members. But I do not know for certain, and it is not my business to try and rise to their defense unasked. What I do know about is that it is offensive to dress up as a Jew for Halloween. And not being able to see how it is disrespectful is, if anything, merely indicative of the degree of how devalued Jewish culture still is among non-Jews.
is this costume is cultural , or religious ? or it's modern cultural become religious ?A rabbi costume?
Let
Let's play "Spot the Rabbi!" Which one is wearing the Rabbi garb?
i mean is in deep past were the Jews wear black pantalon and white shirt ?
the clothes of Jews were close to some Arabic .
http://www.torathmoshe.com/2010/02/the-clothes-make-the-man-of-god/
rosends
Well-Known Member
Just a couple of notes.
You mentioned " If reasonable minds can differ, then it is offensive. My trouble is, I am not sure it is reasonable for someone to find offense in this costume, without something more." That makes it your subjective sense of what is reasonable thus blurring the line ever further. I don't think that there is ever a clear line because every individual carries within him the potential to react in myriad ways at any given moment. Does he need to justify a particular one to some transcendent and objective standard? The American legal system often uses a reasonableness standard (as does Jewish law, in its own way) but that standard, though we claim to know it when we see it, is very hard to quantify. You don't know if it is reasonable to find offense at this costume. If I say it is, is one of us wrong even though each of us is establishing a threshold of "reasonable" that makes sense?
A Halloween party is not about reverence. Using religious imagery for the entertainment of others devalues that imagery. I don't think that anyone, when asked "why did you dress up as a Chassidic Jew?" would say "in order to display my respect for their deep seated traditions and beliefs." If the answer is anything but that, then I think that the possibility of disrespect creeps in. Portraying a character on stage in a fictional construct is different because it is an attempt (I would hope) at creating a microcosm of the real world -- the actor is not dressing up as, he is "pretending in a fictional universe to be" a Jew for the sake of a story telling experience.
The other issue, that of the inherent religious value of the item (which applies to the tzitzit, not the kippah AFAIK) points out that the item isn't just clothing, but a thing used for a religious ritual, and using it out of that context debases the object. The concept of holiness, especially of an object, is tough to explain and even tougher to understand, but a Jewish child is taught from a young age not to put certain books on the floor, or to stand when certain items are around, or not to be undressed in certain places. Taking something which would be part of that system of holiness and using it as part of a costume seems to cheapen it.
And there is, I still feel, this sense of reductionism where someone wearing that costume would be cashing in on a ridiculous shorthand and feeding in to this culturally sloppy stereotype of "what does a Jew look like?" If I were to ask someone wearing that costume, "do you think that that costume represents ME as a Jew?" He'd say "Oh, of course not...I meant those other Jews." So I'd point to 1,000 others, each not looking like that. He'd finally say "Well, you know what I mean." I'd say "I know what you mean when you use bad grammar, but that doesn't mean I won't correct you when you use it."
^ Sophomoric nonsense. There is a difference between challenging opinions and childishly trolling for controversy.
I appreciate the honesty if not the immaturity.
dust1n
Zindīq
Yeah, well I didn't actually intend to stick around to discuss the matter in much detail with anyone. Plus it's nice to the see the views from different perspectives. I mean, the OP sort of specified that I was more interested in the response of Jewish people. I found a couple of the responses that were in some way encouraging the notion illustrative of why just sort of ignoring everyone else around me to do what I want to do peculiar. As if my individuality yielded whenever I decided not to do something that would frivolously bother people. In general, offending people when it's called for is... well called for; you know over like, ideas or something. I'm not sure what I'm supposedly losing by consciously deciding not to do something that I know would be perceived in such a way as to make people feel uncomfortable, over a costume, of all things...
Just so you know.....
I find the thread amusing.....even the sticks in the mud.
So it was both unserious and disingenuous. OK.
dust1n
Zindīq
Eh, better than trying to find something to work on while I wait for the mail.
dust1n
Zindīq
Unserious? Well, not serious in that I already had a great amount of confidence in what the answer would be when the OP question was posed. Disingenuous in that I'm pretending to not know that would ensue for my OP is a debate surrounding the issue I brought up? I consider that a possible outcome for all the threads I make, though, I obviously have no way of knowing exactly what a thread will become outside a feeble estimation.
Akivah
Well-Known Member
That's not a fair question, rosends. That style of dress has spread far beyond a single village. Is your only point of offensiveness that the original question wasn't "Can I dress up like a Chasid for Halloween"?
rosends
Well-Known Member
Had that been the actual question, I would have had a very different reaction, yes. [though I don't think that was my only problem with it]
I'm willing to be that few real witches look like their costume versions too....
I like this one too.
(But I doubt I could make this look work for me.)
Akivah
Well-Known Member
I think you're taking this way too seriously. A Halloween costume party is not meant to realistically portray context and history. It is meant for friends to get together, socialize, and have fun. At every Halloween party that I've ever attended, most of the costumes are removed within 30 minutes of arriving. They're too damn hot to wear for long.
Some people get offended. I think American Indians have well publicized their displeasure of sports team names and mascots. And most jokes by their very nature will offend someone. But that does not mean that dressing up or joke telling should be forbidden since someone somewhere will take offense. And we aren't squeaky clean in this regard. During Purim, a certain person is mocked and made fun of. Do we ever question if that man's relatives are offended?
rosends
Well-Known Member
If we knew for certain that they were his relatives, wouldn't we just kill them?