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Jesus and Paul's teachings, Is there a difference?

Simplelogic

Well-Known Member
"After the Risen Lord proved He had the same nail holes as He had on the cross, Jesus' final words just before He ascended into heaven were that the then Apostles should teach "everything that I commanded you...." Matt.28:20.

Jesus must have meant to teach all His commands prior to the Cross, and not simply any given after He rose from the dead and prior to Ascension. How do we know that?

The reason we know this is true is because none of the four gospels contain any post-cross commands. If Jesus meant by His command to teach the world "all that I have commanded you" (Matt. 28:20) to teach only His commands post-resurrection, the four gospels would have contained such commands. However, there are none quoted except the command in Matt. 28:20 to teach Jesus'commands previously given. Hence, Jesus clearly meant by "everything I commanded you" to be His words in His earthly ministry before His resurrection.

Hence, Jesus could only have meant that post-Ascension the apostles were to teach the pre-Cross teachings of Jesus -- while He was clearly "in the flesh."

However, Paul's statement in 2 Corinthians 5:16 is interpreted to justify rejecting this.

16Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more. (KJV)

The famous and influential evangelical theologian Rudolf Bultmann said 2 Corinthians 5:16 means we no longer know Christ in the flesh, i.e., we supposedly can dispense with Jesus's teachings when He was in the flesh. Paul tells us that only the messages Paul received from the resurrected Christ -- who supposedly no longer had flesh -- is the means to know Christ any longer. Indeed, Origen and Clement in the early church read "in the flesh" in 2 Cor. 5:16 to mean the period of Christ's earthly preaching. (See our discussion at this link.)

Read this way by Bultmann, Paul tells us we no longer know or need to know Jesus' message delivered pre-Resurrection when He was in the flesh.

This is also how the Christian theologian and physician Albert Schweitzer (1875-1965) viewed 2 Cor. 5:16 in his book of 1911 Geschichte Der Paulinischen Forschung (J. C. B. Mohr) [Archive.org] at 191 (and in English translation, Paul and His Interpreters: The conception of authority in the Pauline writings (1918) at 36.) Schweitzer explained: "since the death and resurrection of the Lord [Paul believed] conditions were present that were so wholly new that they made his [Jesus's] teaching inapplicable." (Id.) Thus, Albert Schweitzer says this is what explains Paul's failure to mention any significant teachings of Jesus: "If we had only St Paul to guide us, we should not know that Jesus spoke in parables, that He spoke the Sermon on the Mount and taught His people the Lord's Prayer." http://jesuswordsonly.com/recommendedreading/175-pauls-contradictions-of-jesus.html
 

Thanda

Well-Known Member
Ezekiel 18 tells us:

27Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive. 28Because he considereth, and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die. 29Yet saith the house of Israel: The way of the Lord is not equal. O house of Israel, is it My ways that are not equal? is it not your ways that are unequal? 30Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord GOD. Return ye, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so shall they not be a stumblingblock of iniquity unto you. 31Cast away from you all your transgressions, wherein ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit; for why will ye die, O house of Israel? 32For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD; wherefore turn yourselves, and live. Ezekiel 18: 27-32
I'm still not answered: how do you make yourself pure?
 

Thanda

Well-Known Member
  • Romans 3:28 ("man is justified by faith apart from observing the law").
  • Romans 4:5 ("To the man who does not work, but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness").
  • Gal. 5:4 ("You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace").
  • Romans 7:6 ("Now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law, so that we serve in a new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code").
  • Gal. 2:16 ("A man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ, because by observing the law no one will be justified").
  • Ephesians 2:8-9 ("For it is by grace that you have been saved, through faith, this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God, not by works, so that no one can boast.")
So you are simply ignoring Heb 11 and running to the scriptures that justify your view. You are casting aspersions on Paul and very serious ones at that. Don't you think you owe it to him and yourself to consider ALL his words before coming to the conclusion that he taught a gospel that was contrary to that taught by Christ?
 

Simplelogic

Well-Known Member
So you are simply ignoring Heb 11 and running to the scriptures that justify your view. You are casting aspersions on Paul and very serious ones at that. Don't you think you owe it to him and yourself to consider ALL his words before coming to the conclusion that he taught a gospel that was contrary to that taught by Christ?
Hebrews 11 is a convoluted argument and was either written by Paul or someone very close to Paul. Every example is one of a human doing righteous acts and meriting favor with God because of it. The unknown author of Hebrews claims they did it "by faith" which makes absolutely no sense. Of course all the men believed in God. But it is clear that they were shown grace and mercy because of their WORKS…not their faith. Lets see what God says about those men:

Why did God show mercy to Noah?

So the Lord said, "I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I regret that I have made them." But Noah found GRACE in the eyes of the Lord. This is the genealogy of Noah. Noah was a just man, perfect in his generations. Noah walked with God. Genesis 6:7-9

Then the Lord said to Noah, "Come into the ark, you and all your household, BECAUSE I have seen that you are righteous before Me in this generation. Genesis 7:1

Why did God bless Abraham?

"Sojourn in this land, and I will be with you and bless you; for to you and your descendants I give all these lands, and I will perform the oath which I swore to Abraham your father. And I will make your descendants multiply as the stars of heaven; I will give to your descendants all these lands; and in your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed; BECAUSE Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My Laws." Genesis 26:3-5
 

Thanda

Well-Known Member
Hebrews 11 is a convoluted argument and was either written by Paul or someone very close to Paul. Every example is one of a human doing righteous acts and meriting favor with God because of it. The unknown author of Hebrews claims they did it "by faith" which makes absolutely no sense. Of course all the men believed in God. But it is clear that they were shown grace and mercy because of their WORKS…not their faith. Lets see what God says about those men:

Why did God show mercy to Noah?

So the Lord said, "I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I regret that I have made them." But Noah found GRACE in the eyes of the Lord. This is the genealogy of Noah. Noah was a just man, perfect in his generations. Noah walked with God. Genesis 6:7-9

Then the Lord said to Noah, "Come into the ark, you and all your household, BECAUSE I have seen that you are righteous before Me in this generation. Genesis 7:1

Why did God bless Abraham?

"Sojourn in this land, and I will be with you and bless you; for to you and your descendants I give all these lands, and I will perform the oath which I swore to Abraham your father. And I will make your descendants multiply as the stars of heaven; I will give to your descendants all these lands; and in your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed; BECAUSE Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My Laws." Genesis 26:3-5

I think your definition of faith is very narrow. Faith is not just belief, it is also trust and confidence. Noah was just because he trusted and had confidence in God. Because he trusted God he kept God's commandments. If he did not trust God he would have been wicked like everyone else in his generation.

E.g. You blindfold your child. You tell him to jump off the ledge of a decent sized wall. Your telling him to jump is a commandment. Whether he obeys or not will depend on how much he trusts you or how much faith he has in you.
Of course there are other options. You could force him or threaten him with all kinds of things to make him jump. Or he could jump because he thinks he can fly. He might jump simply because he's trying to impress his friends. All these other reasons for jumping are inferior to the reason of faith. If he jumps for any other reason other than his faith in you than his jumping is no reflection of the love he has for you. Thus his jumping is useless as a gauge of how close the relationship between the two of you is.

Now Christ was asked which was the greatest commandment. He said the greatest commandment was to love God with all our heart, might, mind and strength. Now I would ask you, do you reckon you can please God without keeping the greatest commandment? Do you suppose you can receive God's fullest blessings without keeping the greatest commandment?

It is clear therefore that without faith no man can please God. If he keeps any laws or commandments of God for any reason other than by reason of his faith in God he is wasting his time. Jesus said if we give and we do it to be seen of men (we are keeping the commandment but not because of our faith in and love of God) then all we will get as a reward is the congratulations of men - you will have no reward from God.

Thus Jesus and Paul are perfectly consistent as touching the subject of works and faith. It is the faith that saves not the works. For it is the faith that both produces the works (or leads to the works - keeping the commandments) and sanctifies them (they are dedicated and consecrated to God).
 
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Thanda

Well-Known Member
repentance

And is repentance not turning to God? Does repentance not consist of ceasing to put your trust of faith in the arm of flesh (yourself and others) and instead making God the centre of your faith and trust.

And most importantly can a man repent if he has no faith? Why would he repent? Why would he have a change of heart? Would it not be by reason of his faith in God? If a man has no faith in God then he would not repent because he would not believe that firstly repentance is necessary, and secondly that repentance will actually bring about the desired outcome: forgiveness.

Your belief that repentance will help you get a pure heart is an act of faith.
 

Yoshua

Well-Known Member
Thats a very long and confusing definition.

Ok…Its important to make a distinction here between your definition and Paul's. Paul believed in faith as a "concept" or mental belief that had NOTHING to do with good works. Its simply believing (mentally) in Jesus' death, burial/resurrection….thats it.
Hi,

Where did you get that? Did you have a supporting scripture that tell us “faith is a concept or mental belief”?

May I ask you (since you believe in Jesus' teachings), what is your understanding of the Holy Spirit? What is the function of the Holy Spirit in your life?

Thanks
 

Thanda

Well-Known Member
Hebrews 11 is a convoluted argument and was either written by Paul or someone very close to Paul. Every example is one of a human doing righteous acts and meriting favor with God because of it. The unknown author of Hebrews claims they did it "by faith" which makes absolutely no sense. Of course all the men believed in God. But it is clear that they were shown grace and mercy because of their WORKS…not their faith. Lets see what God says about those men:

Why did God show mercy to Noah?

So the Lord said, "I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I regret that I have made them." But Noah found GRACE in the eyes of the Lord. This is the genealogy of Noah. Noah was a just man, perfect in his generations. Noah walked with God. Genesis 6:7-9

Then the Lord said to Noah, "Come into the ark, you and all your household, BECAUSE I have seen that you are righteous before Me in this generation. Genesis 7:1

Why did God bless Abraham?

"Sojourn in this land, and I will be with you and bless you; for to you and your descendants I give all these lands, and I will perform the oath which I swore to Abraham your father. And I will make your descendants multiply as the stars of heaven; I will give to your descendants all these lands; and in your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed; BECAUSE Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My Laws." Genesis 26:3-5

I will concede on thing in regards to faith and works. Faith and works have a reciprocal relationship. Just as faith in Christ leads to good works so the good works also strengthen and increase the faith. Going back to the example of the son jumping off the wall: It takes faith for him to jump. But if he jumps (obeys the commandment) then his faith in you will be validated and will increase. Next time he will be more willing to do something even more dangerous because of the extra faith he has gained in you as a result of his obedience and your fulfilling your promise. Thus keeping the commandments of God is essential to gaining salvation since it is only through doing so that we can increase our faith to the level God requires.
 

Yoshua

Well-Known Member
Repentance is itself an action. If I steal from somebody, I can't then simply then go and ask for forgiveness from God. I am require to approach the person from whom I stole and repay what I stole from them. Then I can go before God to receive forgiveness/restoration. Actions are mandatory in order to accomplish true repentance, every time. But this is not what Paul teaches. Paul teaches that faith is to be completely separate from works.

For example, R.B. Thieme, a fundamentalist pastor and author of over one-hundred books, dogmatically expunges anything Jesus taught about salvation. Thieme, in fact, stresses the new convert to not take the steps Jesus demanded for salvation. Thieme writes:

If all you’ve ever done is to add Lordship [i.e., turning in obedience to Christ] to faith, you probably are not saved, and you ought to make sure, and that is simply tell God the Father, and don’t make it long. Take about ten seconds at the most. Father, I believe in Jesus Christ. And the moment you tell Him that, you are saved. But if you add something you have cancelled it out. (R.B. Thieme Jr., Doctrine of Grace: Eternal Security (May 19, 1988) lesson 814.)
But take a look at v.17, did Paul’s statement was consistent with Jesus' born-again to Nicodemus? Of course, yes.

What a lot of people did not understand is the transition from Jesus to Paul. They tend to match their teachings based on the exact statement, but missed the concept and principles that is related and connected from each other. Jesus is the Son of God, He emphasized on His mission to accomplish a purpose—to redeem us from the penalty of sin. Paul emphasized on Jesus, the finished work of salvation and the gospel; the detail and expansion on the importance of what Christ did on the cross; grace and faith in relation to salvation; justification and understanding between the law and the New Covenant. They both have different focus pointing to our Lord God. The presence of Jesus Christ with the disciples and the presence of Paul without Jesus did not destroy what the gospel message is.

He did not (selfishly) owned his words by himself but Christ who lives in him. He was filled with the Holy Spirit; If you said that faith is action, did you think that Paul’s action from the start of his ministry to propagate the gospel, his persecution, preaching, sending letters, hardship, trials, and execution for Christ makes him a different theology and teachings with Jesus? I don’t think so.

I don’t think that his faith is a mental belief only, but with works. He just identified the good works as not gaining it by human capability but by Spirit’s power for righteousness.

Gal.2:20
20. "I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me, and delivered Himself up for me.

In other words, Paul is saying He do good works because he is a follower of Jesus Christ, and not he do good works because he want to be a follower of Jesus Christ.

Thanks
 

Yoshua

Well-Known Member
I think your definition of faith is very narrow. Faith is not just belief, it is also trust and confidence. Noah was just because he trusted and had confidence in God. Because he trusted God he kept God's commandments. If he did not trust God he would have been wicked like everyone else in his generation.

E.g. You blindfold your child. You tell him to jump off the ledge of a decent sized wall. Your telling him to jump is a commandment. Whether he obeys or not will depend on how much he trusts you or how much faith he has in you.
Of course there are other options. You could force him or threaten him with all kinds of things to make him jump. Or he could jump because he thinks he can fly. He might jump simply because he's trying to impress his friends. All these other reasons for jumping are inferior to the reason of faith. If he jumps for any other reason other than his faith in you than his jumping is no reflection of the love he has for you. Thus his jumping is useless as a gauge of how close the relationship between the two of you is.

Now Christ was asked which was the greatest commandment. He said the greatest commandment was to love God with all our heart, might, mind and strength. Now I would ask you, do you reckon you can please God without keeping the greatest commandment? Do you suppose you can receive God's fullest blessings without keeping the greatest commandment?

It is clear therefore that without faith no man can please God. If he keeps any laws or commandments of God for any reason other than by reason of his faith in God he is wasting his time. Jesus said if we give and we do it to be seen of men (we are keeping the commandment but not because of our faith in and love of God) then all we will get as a reward is the congratulations of men - you will have no reward from God.

Thus Jesus and Paul are perfectly consistent as touching the subject of works and faith. It is the faith that saves not the works. For it is the faith that both produces the works (or leads to the works - keeping the commandments) and sanctifies them (they are dedicated and consecrated to God).
Well explained. Thanda.
 

Thanda

Well-Known Member
But take a look at v.17, did Paul’s statement was consistent with Jesus' born-again to Nicodemus? Of course, yes.

What a lot of people did not understand is the transition from Jesus to Paul. They tend to match their teachings based on the exact statement, but missed the concept and principles that is related and connected from each other. Jesus is the Son of God, He emphasized on His mission to accomplish a purpose—to redeem us from the penalty of sin. Paul emphasized on Jesus, the finished work of salvation and the gospel; the detail and expansion on the importance of what Christ did on the cross; grace and faith in relation to salvation; justification and understanding between the law and the New Covenant. They both have different focus pointing to our Lord God. The presence of Jesus Christ with the disciples and the presence of Paul without Jesus did not destroy what the gospel message is.

He did not (selfishly) owned his words by himself but Christ who lives in him. He was filled with the Holy Spirit; If you said that faith is action, did you think that Paul’s action from the start of his ministry to propagate the gospel, his persecution, preaching, sending letters, hardship, trials, and execution for Christ makes him a different theology and teachings with Jesus? I don’t think so.

I don’t think that his faith is a mental belief only, but with works. He just identified the good works as not gaining it by human capability but by Spirit’s power for righteousness.

Gal.2:20
20. "I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me, and delivered Himself up for me.

In other words, Paul is saying He do good works because he is a follower of Jesus Christ, and not he do good works because he want to be a follower of Jesus Christ.

Thanks

To justify what you are saying I will use the Book of Mormon. In Matt 5:48 Jesus says "Be ye therefore perfect even as your faith who is in Heaven is perfect". In 3 Nephi 12:48 the same Jesus, but now resurrected says to the people "Therefore I would that ye should be perfect even as I, or your father who is in Heaven is perfect."

And again in the bible Jesus objects to being called good and says none is but God. In the Book of Mormon in 3 Nephi 27:27 the resurrected Christ says "Therefore, what manner of men aught ye to be? Verily I say unto you, even as I am."

Jesus spoke somewhat conservatively about himself while he was still on his earthly mission. But after he had finished the work he more boldly declared himself the centre of salvation. When Jesus ascended into heaven he continued to communicate to his disciples via the Holy Ghost. And it is by reason of that communication that Paul and others were taught to more boldly declare the divinity and Lordship of Jesus of Nazareth.

In connection with this last point note Matthew 16:20:
"Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ."​
 

Yoshua

Well-Known Member
To justify what you are saying I will use the Book of Mormon. In Matt 5:48 Jesus says "Be ye therefore perfect even as your faith who is in Heaven is perfect". In 3 Nephi 12:48 the same Jesus, but now resurrected says to the people "Therefore I would that ye should be perfect even as I, or your father who is in Heaven is perfect."

And again in the bible Jesus objects to being called good and says none is but God. In the Book of Mormon in 3 Nephi 27:27 the resurrected Christ says "Therefore, what manner of men aught ye to be? Verily I say unto you, even as I am."

Jesus spoke somewhat conservatively about himself while he was still on his earthly mission. But after he had finished the work he more boldly declared himself the centre of salvation. When Jesus ascended into heaven he continued to communicate to his disciples via the Holy Ghost. And it is by reason of that communication that Paul and others were taught to more boldly declare the divinity and Lordship of Jesus of Nazareth.

In connection with this last point note Matthew 16:20:
"Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ."​
Hi Thanda,

Why use the book of Mormon? Are you a Mormon?

Thanks
 
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