What!!?

Nakosis · Aug 3, 2015

Tumah said:
That's a bit of eisegesis over there.

Which part? That these passages refer to the cyclic nature or Buddhism offers a way out of this?

I didn't mean to imply that this way out is implied by Ecclesiastes. It actually seems the opposite. Ecclesiastes implies the only smart thing to do is obey God in fear of judgement.

Even Christianity offers a way out of this... I would say through love and compassion, but Christianity sees Jesus more as the sacrificial offering. Jesus was punished so we could avoid punishment.

Tumah · Aug 3, 2015

Nakosis said:
Which part? That these passages refer to the cyclic nature or Buddhism offers a way out of this?

I didn't mean to imply that this way out is implied by Ecclesiastes. It actually seems the opposite. Ecclesiastes implies the only smart thing to do is obey God in fear of judgement.

Even Christianity offers a way out of this... I would say through love and compassion, but Christianity sees Jesus more as the sacrificial offering. Jesus was punished so we could avoid punishment.

Yes, I was referring to the Buddhist way out.
But why are you relating the cyclic nature of the world to punishment? I think that's might be some Buddhist thought you're imposing onto the text.

Nakosis · Aug 3, 2015

Tumah said:
Yes, I was referring to the Buddhist way out.
But why are you relating the cyclic nature of the world to punishment? I think that's might be some Buddhist thought you're imposing onto the text.

Actually I'm assuming the judgement referred to in the biblical chapter implies punishment of some form. Otherwise, why worry about judgement?

Tumah · Aug 3, 2015

Nakosis said:
Actually I'm assuming the judgement referred to in the biblical chapter implies punishment of some form. Otherwise, why worry about judgement?

Well, I mean there's rewarding judgment and punishing judgments.
But what I was referring to is the part where you say that by fearing G-d, one escapes the cyclic nature of the world (and that Christianity offers and alternative method, etc.). So I was asking where you are getting the idea that Eccl. is providing a method for escaping the cyclic nature of the world, rather than they are two unrelated concepts.

dust1n · Aug 3, 2015

Nakosis said:
Ecclesiastes 3
12 I know that there is nothing better for people than to be happy and to do good while they live. 13 That each of them may eat and drink, and find satisfaction in all their toil—this is the gift of God.
View attachment 10333

Not sure why I would care if God wanted fear or reverence. Don't personally see why I'd give it to him either way, considering I can get the aforementioned things without him.

Nakosis · Aug 3, 2015

Tumah said:
Well, I mean there's rewarding judgment and punishing judgments.
But what I was referring to is the part where you say that by fearing G-d, one escapes the cyclic nature of the world (and that Christianity offers and alternative method, etc.). So I was asking where you are getting the idea that Eccl. is providing a method for escaping the cyclic nature of the world, rather than they are two unrelated concepts.

That's not what I'm saying.

I'm saying that the cyclic nature of things is the view from these passages.

My view is that of an escape from this cycle. I'm pointing out another disagreement I have with the two passages you mentioned.

So, what I see is that verses are used from Ecclesiastes which by themselves imply a cynical view. So I wanted to look at the source and try to understand it better. Actually what I'm seeing is it seems to be warning against the cynical view. In fact it seems down right pessimistic.

I mentioned Jesus, well Christianity actually, because it also seems to support this pessimistic view. Again, non-Buddhist escape.

However I find it interesting that both Buddhism and the Bible see the same situation in life. And neither indulgence nor sacrifice seem to allow any escape.

Buddhism comes up with the middle-way. The author of Ecclesiastes however concludes the only wise thing to do is to fear the judgement of God.

Nakosis · Aug 3, 2015

dust1n said:
Not sure why I would care if God wanted fear or reverence. Don't personally see why I'd give it to him either way, considering I can get the aforementioned things without him.

Yes, but I saw a contradiction initially here between "12 I know that there is nothing better for people than to be happy and to do good while they live." And God wants fear or reverence from man.

One doesn't add up to the other.

So I've seen quotes from sections of this which by themselves imply God wants happiness for man. However as you read the entire book of Ecclesiastes you begin to see this is not what is being said at all.

It ends up saying your duty is to keep God's commandments and wisdom comes from fearing God's judgement.

It's probably nothing to you, but I suspect I'm going to start seeing these quotes in a different light and whatever that song by the Byrds was that keeps going through my head.

URAVIP2ME · Aug 3, 2015

dust1n said:
Not sure why I would care if God wanted fear or reverence. Don't personally see why I'd give it to him either way, considering I can get the aforementioned things without him.

Can you make it rain and the sun shine?______
God provides the sun and rain for the many food varieties we have.
Without food how many of the aforementioned things could you have without Him ?

' Reverential fear ' is like a loving child not wanting to displease a loving parent.
We have the freedom from God to have the freedom to obey God or Not obey.
If we obey then we can live forever. If we choose to disobey God then we won't live forever.
As Adam went from non-life, to life, and back to non-life.
We are nearing the threshold of a coming ' time of separation ' on earth - Matthew 25:31-32
When the humble ' sheep'-like people can remain alive on earth, and continue living on earth right into the start of Jesus' 1,000 year governmental rulership over earth when Jesus will usher in global Peace on Earth among men of goodwill.

URAVIP2ME · Aug 3, 2015

Nakosis said:
Actually I'm assuming the judgement referred to in the biblical chapter implies punishment of some form. Otherwise, why worry about judgement?

The biblical ' punishment ' is: destruction.
The wicked will be destroyed forever - Psalms 92:7
There are two choices: Repent or Perish - 2 Peter 3:9
Perish also means destruction.

Please also keep in mind that judgment in Scripture is Not always adverse judgment. The humble ' sheep'-like people have a very favorable judgment.
-Matthew 25:31-32; Matthew 25:37; Matthew 25:40

Levite · Aug 3, 2015

Nakosis said:
Ecclesiastes 3
12 I know that there is nothing better for people than to be happy and to do good while they live. 13 That each of them may eat and drink, and find satisfaction in all their toil—this is the gift of God. 14 I know that everything God does will endure forever; nothing can be added to it and nothing taken from it. God does it so that people will fear him.

View attachment 10333

Probably helps to know that "fearing God" is a mistranslation. The word that is consistently translated as "fear" (which, to be fair, occasionally does mean to fear in other contexts) in reference to God always means "to hold in awe." God does not actually desire anyone to fear Him. He does wish people to hold Him in awe, which seems fair, as God would appear to be the acme of awesomeness (in the literal, not the slang sense).

Unification · Aug 3, 2015

Nakosis said:
Fear is an animal instinct, flight or hide. It could save your life I guess.

And in these following passages...

19 Surely the fate of human beings is like that of the animals; the same fate awaits them both: As one dies, so dies the other. All have the same breath]; humans have no advantage over animals. Everything is meaningless. 20 All go to the same place; all come from dust, and to dust all return. 21 Who knows if the human spirit rises upward and if the spirit of the animal goes down into the earth?”
22 So I saw that there is nothing better for a person than to enjoy their work, because that is their lot. For who can bring them to see what will happen after them?

Pretty pessimistic.

It concludes by saying everything is meaningless, and seems to set the presumption that the only guidance available to man is to keep God's commandment because we will be judged. That's fear, that's not awe or reverence.

It's like a person trying to find purpose in life however whatever purpose he thinks he found he finds something to contradict it. So what I'm seeing is I find parts I agree with then I find the contradiction. It also fits, the Fear of God is the foundation of wisdom according to this because all other wisdom we'd use to guide our life is meaningless. Going forth with the fear of God because we know we will judged and punished? for not keeping God's commandments.

There are many other translations for that text, "meaningless" is a poor word. Other translations say, "vanity." Big difference between "meaningless" and "vanity." Also, human beings in other versions are "sons of man." Wheras "sons of man" refer to "thoughts of mankind." Large difference between "human beings" and "thoughts of human beings."
Just as daughters of man are emotions of mankind. As children of man are knowledge of mankind.
Also, "animal" is "beast" in other texts. The beast is the "ego," the animal instinctive nature of the mind, the Reptilian complex of the brain. . I'm sure that you're well aware of the characteristics. So animals and beasts are thoughts, affections, emotions from the beast, or ego, or carnal animal mind that reacts on those and instincts. They will bring us downward. As a manchild born in ones brain would be a seed of great wisdom that grows and expands.

Dust/earth/stone in text refers to physical matter, many times referring to the physical brain made of matter, and others referring to the physical human body.

Really, after being translated endless times and english words poorly used, it's about an individual getting above and beyond their self and ego, thinking more highly of themselves than they ought to, above their own head. Vanity. The ego descends and falls. The higher conscious rises above. The ego expects and looks to the future, the higher conscious embraces the present. No one knows what lies ahead for them, not tomorrow, not next month, not after physical death.

"Who knows IF" is also "who knows THAT" in other translations.

Thief · Aug 3, 2015

God isn't human.

As Creator, He has made Man is His image (spiritual)
if the spirit you become fails to form a reflection sufficient.....your spirit will fail.

Fear is a reflex that helps to keep you from harm in this life.
It might also do the same for your spirit.

the difference...
Fear in this life IS a reflex.
Spiritual fear is of mind and heart and requires your willful participation.

If you fear God.....it's because you haven't thought about it.....sufficiently.

Tumah · Aug 4, 2015

Nakosis said:
That's not what I'm saying.

I'm saying that the cyclic nature of things is the view from these passages.

My view is that of an escape from this cycle. I'm pointing out another disagreement I have with the two passages you mentioned.

So, what I see is that verses are used from Ecclesiastes which by themselves imply a cynical view. So I wanted to look at the source and try to understand it better. Actually what I'm seeing is it seems to be warning against the cynical view. In fact it seems down right pessimistic.

I mentioned Jesus, well Christianity actually, because it also seems to support this pessimistic view. Again, non-Buddhist escape.

However I find it interesting that both Buddhism and the Bible see the same situation in life. And neither indulgence nor sacrifice seem to allow any escape.

Buddhism comes up with the middle-way. The author of Ecclesiastes however concludes the only wise thing to do is to fear the judgement of God.

Ok, I think I understand now. You're saying that Eccl. doesn't offer a way out of the cycle and it suggests fearing G-d because there is no other choice.
Why do you view the cycle as something that one should want to escape, rather than a neutral component of reality? Rather I should say, how do you understand this cycle and what benefit would be gained in escaping from it?
I see the pessimism, and I think that's what he was aiming for: everything about the physical world is emptiness and suffering and the only worthwhile pursuit is in the spiritual.

JoStories · Aug 4, 2015

Unification said:
All those things mentioned are "God." Consciousness, matter, and energy. Residing inside an individual. Individual dieties.

An individual experiencing low self esteem is "God" experiencing low self esteem, within the individual.

If all was light, what would we see? We'd be robotic. All infinite outcomes of the spectrum of life are capable.

I can't agree with you at all. A person with low self esteem could simply have not enough confidence in themselves and that has little to do with God. You seem to equate God with as a part of the body or human condition. That, IMO, is just not true. One can have been raised being ridiculed and made to feel less in many ways and that can contribute to low self esteem, which as nothing to do with God. These people, for the most part, can relearn that they are valued and have many contributions to the tribe or community. God can inspire someone, if God is asked but God does not reside within me as a part of physiogomy. God can reside within me, if I want, as energy or spirit. Very different concept.

Nakosis · Aug 4, 2015

Tumah said:
Ok, I think I understand now. You're saying that Eccl. doesn't offer a way out of the cycle and it suggests fearing G-d because there is no other choice.
Why do you view the cycle as something that one should want to escape, rather than a neutral component of reality? Rather I should say, how do you understand this cycle and what benefit would be gained in escaping from it?
I see the pessimism, and I think that's what he was aiming for: everything about the physical world is emptiness and suffering and the only worthwhile pursuit is in the spiritual.

Because it works for me.

I can achieve happiness in life through my own efforts. Through meditation and self-determination.

Other folks try to control you through your emotions. Through guilt, through fear, jealousy, by withholding love. I see the fires of hell as the passion of emotions which causes people to react and in a sense imprisons them. Temptations and desires. It's not that emotions and bad or even the physical world is bad, it's that a person without self-determination is a slave to the desires and temptations caused by emotions.

I'd much rather be in control and determine my emotions, my desire and my actions. Being able to do so I find leads to a state of consistent happiness. Understand even fear, anger, hate have their use, but I control them.

This frees me from suffering, which to me is being a slave to your desires.

This to me answers the issues brought up by Ecclesiastes.

The other problem is knowing exactly what are the commandments of God? The 10 commandments? Which their application through out the Bible is a bit vague. The 613 Jewish laws? The 30 or so commandments by Jesus. There is to me no clear understanding of these required commandments. Folks have their own beliefs and ideas of what they are and argue about them constantly.

And this day of judgement. There is no actual knowledge of this, just faith and belief. People say this is true but there is no real validation of it. Just something people believe will happen.

So I can choose to act in some way I assume God wants me to act again assuming I may be judge for my adherence to this commands which people can't seem to agree on what they actually are or I can improve my life. I can take charge and control my life right here and right now. It's not some vague idea of laws that God wants me to follow assuming at some future date I will be judge for how well I did. It's something that affects now and each moment of my life.

I choose my purpose, I choose my goals. I don't need God for that. And, if I end up being judged, I'll be judge for who I am, not who I think nor who other people tell me God says I should be.

Nakosis · Aug 4, 2015

Unification said:
"Who knows IF" is also "who knows THAT" in other translations.

And people choose the interpretation they feel comfortable with, with no real gurantee they are correct. I've been there, done that and realized I was just fooling myself. What you don't like you look for a way to interpret in some way you ind meaningful. Where you fail in that you assume a metaphorical meaning.

People are not finding truth in scripture. They are creating some idea of God they can live with so they can assume their membership among the folks who will be rewarded by God for their obedience.

Ecclesiastes intent seems pretty clear, barring any squabbles about details in translation. I understand the dilemma it raises. It's a common philosophical issue that man comes across in trying to understand his purpose and what choices are good and wise. It's answer is to fear judgement by God. For the author, nothing else makes sense.

However, really what do you know about God. What others have told you, some subjective experience you feel proves to you God's existence? Is there any real validation of any of this?

I for myself have to say honestly no. However I do have an answer which I find for me works. Can't say it's going to work for anyone else.

Nakosis · Aug 4, 2015

Thief said:
If you fear God.....it's because you haven't thought about it.....sufficiently.

Don't you "fear/revere" God's judgement?
You make your choices because you will be judged? This is the wisdom of Ecclesiastes. To act knowing you will be judged for your actions.

If not for punishment or reward, what reasoning do you have for your actions?

Unification · Aug 4, 2015

JoStories said:
I can't agree with you at all. A person with low self esteem could simply have not enough confidence in themselves and that has little to do with God. You seem to equate God with as a part of the body or human condition. That, IMO, is just not true. One can have been raised being ridiculed and made to feel less in many ways and that can contribute to low self esteem, which as nothing to do with God. These people, for the most part, can relearn that they are valued and have many contributions to the tribe or community. God can inspire someone, if God is asked but God does not reside within me as a part of physiogomy. God can reside within me, if I want, as energy or spirit. Very different concept.

There is a difference the "reason" for one being low on themselves, and "how" one can feel low on themselves in the first place. It requires the ability to feel, the ability to think, the ability to "BE" in that conscious state. Spirit-aura, sensation, ability to feel, and think low, and that resides within, conscious ability for that. Requires that and energy to feel such. Agree with the rest, one can turn that negative energy of being into positive energy of being, all within the mind of consciousness.

Nakosis · Aug 4, 2015

Levite said:
Probably helps to know that "fearing God" is a mistranslation. The word that is consistently translated as "fear" (which, to be fair, occasionally does mean to fear in other contexts) in reference to God always means "to hold in awe." God does not actually desire anyone to fear Him. He does wish people to hold Him in awe, which seems fair, as God would appear to be the acme of awesomeness (in the literal, not the slang sense).

Ok, but the message in Ecclesiastics is to act because of fear or awe of Gods judgement? This being the foundation of wisdom.

Am I wrong?

Tumah · Aug 4, 2015

Nakosis said:
Because it works for me.

I can achieve happiness in life through my own efforts. Through meditation and self-determination.

Other folks try to control you through your emotions. Through guilt, through fear, jealousy, by withholding love. I see the fires of hell as the passion of emotions which causes people to react and in a sense imprisons them. Temptations and desires. It's not that emotions and bad or even the physical world is bad, it's that a person without self-determination is a slave to the desires and temptations caused by emotions.

I'd much rather be in control and determine my emotions, my desire and my actions. Being able to do so I find leads to a state of consistent happiness. Understand even fear, anger, hate have their use, but I control them.

This frees me from suffering, which to me is being a slave to your desires.

This to me answers the issues brought up by Ecclesiastes.

The other problem is knowing exactly what are the commandments of God? The 10 commandments? Which their application through out the Bible is a bit vague. The 613 Jewish laws? The 30 or so commandments by Jesus. There is to me no clear understanding of these required commandments. Folks have their own beliefs and ideas of what they are and argue about them constantly.

And this day of judgement. There is no actual knowledge of this, just faith and belief. People say this is true but there is no real validation of it. Just something people believe will happen.

So I can choose to act in some way I assume God wants me to act again assuming I may be judge for my adherence to this commands which people can't seem to agree on what they actually are or I can improve my life. I can take charge and control my life right here and right now. It's not some vague idea of laws that God wants me to follow assuming at some future date I will be judge for how well I did. It's something that affects now and each moment of my life.

I choose my purpose, I choose my goals. I don't need God for that. And, if I end up being judged, I'll be judge for who I am, not who I think nor who other people tell me God says I should be.

That wasn't exactly what I was asking. I was asking how you perceive the cycle that is described in Eccl.? What is being cycled here? Why is it advantageous to leave such a cycle?
I'm trying to understand where you're coming from.

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