outhouse
Atheistically
For those of us who have taken this subject serious enough to actually study it at a higher level, he was quite coherent.
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The whys of Hell and Jesus.
- Thread starter jojom
- Start date
For those of us who have taken this subject serious enough to actually study it at a higher level, he was quite coherent.
outhouse
Atheistically
Much less fanaticism, fundamentalism and bias.
outhouse
Atheistically
He did not
only people defined the concepts that evolved over time into what you think you know..So ancient rhetorical threats by people who's lives were steeped in mythology still apply to YOU today? or are you just obviously throwing lures out dragging them behind a boat?
You would have to understand the context of the different authors, you would have to actually understand the cultural and social anthropology, and its not something you can learn in a thread like this.
Unification
Well-Known Member
The tabernacle(brain) of God(consciousness).. With the 12 tribes(12 cranial nerves that determine our sight, hearing, reality, and environment in which we interpret) of Is Ra El, conscious/subconscious/Elohim, will be sick and diseased mentally if we feed it with lies, garbage, and negativity and pass that along genetically. The conscious brain will be punished and in and out of states of hell with plagues when separated and not whole.
Hitlers actions were due to how his conscious brain was wired and programmed.
According to Scripture Adam and Eve were literal.
Jesus was sinless. So, in that sense Jesus was perfect. Adam started out sinless. Jesus remained sinless. Adam became a sinner.
Jesus would Not have been alive and kicking again if Jesus would have died as a sinner.
Since we can Not resurrect oneself or anyone else we need someone who can do that for us.
Because perfect or sinless Jesus died sinless then Jesus could balance the Scales of Justice for us. Equal life for equal life.
Adam was created sinless and since we are born into sin ( we through No fault of our own can Not stop sinning ) we can Not provide a ransom ( a sinless person ) equal for Adam. So, No one else besides Jesus could do that sort of ransom sacrifice - Matthew 20:28
Please keep in mind that in Scripture the word perfect is used in both an 'absolute sense ' and in a ' relative sense '.
Think of a wedding ring. It may Not measure exactly perfect, but a wedding ring can be perfect for use in a marriage ceremony.
Only God is perfect in the absolute sense of the word.
Jesus said only God is good.
Jesus told even us to be perfect - Matthew 5:44; Matthew 5:48 - in the context of not just loving those who love you but to include loving your enemies.
Adam was created with human perfection meaning relative perfection. Adam (and us ) could Not go beyond the limited human sphere of existence. We are still bound by the laws of nature such as gravity, breathing, eating ( food not stones ), sleeping, etc.
Adam was also a free moral creation. Adam could choose to obey the one command - eat or not eat from God's tree - choice.
We all have the freedom to obey God or not obey.
Perfection does Not mean can't make a wrong choice or that an imperfect person could Not make a right choice.
We can all choose to take a right course where moral issues are involved. Our will, or free-will choices, is the determining factor.
I think we can agree that Revelation is written in very-vivid word pictures for us.
I notice at Rev. 14:11 it is the ' smoke ' that goes us forever.
Please notice Isaiah 34:10 where it also mentions ' smoke ' going up forever.
We don't see that smoke going up forever but rather ' forever smoke ' as in meaning gone forever.
Please also notice Isaiah 66:24. Are those literal worms still alive, or their fire not quenched? Rather the fire consumed what they worms did not. That ' fire' was incinerating them. As in being destroyed forever - Psalms 92:7 (Annihilated )
So, yes, ' eternal destruction '- 2 thess. 1:9 - Not eternal burning.
The ' everlasting hell fire ' of Matthew 18:8-9 is translated from the word: Gehenna.
Gehenna was a garbage pit outside of Jerusalem where things were destroyed forever Not kept burning forever.
What was the eternal punishment for Adam ? Adam simply returned to the dust of the ground - Genesis 3:19
A person can Not ' return ' of go back to a place he never was before. Adam went back or returned to non-life.
So, the eternal punishment for the haughty ' goats ' is No postmortem punishment but destruction (perishing forever )
Isn't that why 2 Peter 3:9 says to repent rather than ' perish ' ( be destroyed )
So, the punishment of eternal fire is: Gehenna ( destruction forever and ever ) - Psalms 92:7
According to Revelation 20:13-14 isn't hell thrown into ' second death ' only after everyone in biblical hell is ' delivered up ' out of the Bible's emptied-out hell, and then vacated hell is cast into that symbolic ' second death ' ?
If I may take the liberty to comment on ' mainstream Christian view '
Since Jesus said MANY ( mainstream ) would come ' in his name ' but prove false - Matthew 7:21-23 - then the MANY or majority of so-called Christians would Not be following the first-century teachings of Jesus.
There was No postmortem torment for Adam but a simply returning to dust - Genesis 3:19
Adam went from non-life- to life -and back to non-life.
Especially when the Jews began mixing with the Greeks they mixed Greek philosophies and theories with Scripture thus helping give birth, so to speak, to Christendom or so-called mainstream Christianity. - Acts of the Apostles 20:29-30
jojom
Active Member
Which means it isn't necessary. Gotcha.
This still doesn't address those who don't know enough to seek god, or those who remain unconvinced of its necessity.
If they don't know exactly what it means then why do they use it?
Telling someone who asks an honest question that it doesn't need to be answered is a cop-out.
So in the end, having faith in Jesus Christ as one's savior is irrelevant.
If faith and piety figure into the final scoring then they do figure into the basis of separating the sheep from the goats in the Last Judgment. Which is it: they do or do not figure into the basis?
So if people get a break for not having heard of Jesus, then it stands to reason hearing of Jesus could be a real detriment. Ergo, people are better of remaining ignorant of him and god. Hmmm.
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jojom
Active Member
Moved where?
jojom
Active Member
Contrary to the common understanding of hell.He did not
Please try to keep up here, and consider the context of asserted belief.
Now this is a reasonable reply. Thank you.
jojom
Active Member
Are you suggesting that the torment stops yet the smoke continues? Possible I guess, but it's certainly not an event worth mentioning. Why bother mentioning the smoke if it has nothing to do with the ongoing condition of the sinner? There isn't any. The reason the passage bothers to mention the smoke going up forever is because it indicates what is happening to create it: the torment that goes on forever.
41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
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You're forgetting Matthew 18:8
It is better for you to enter life crippled or lame than with two hands or two feet to be thrown into the eternal fire.
and Matthew 25:41
41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
You mean the word "hell," not the whole phrase. But so what? Hell still remains hell, as does being thrown into its eternal/everlasting fire. Any other place you know of that has eternal/everlasting fire?
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Well, if Scriptures says so, then it must be true. But do you really believe it? Do you really believe that there were two fully formed adult persons without childhood and without parents that started all this a few thousands year ago?
So, can we say that the pinnacle of God's work (the first two humans), were relatively perfect?
And if God is the only perfect thing that can exists, that would entail that God cannot possibly create absolutely perfect things. Is that correct?
That is not real freedom. Real freedom is when you can do something without consequences from a higher power or authority. Otherwise things like "the land of the free" would not make any sense. Every country would be the "land of the free". Iran and North Korea included.
Ciao
- viole
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outhouse
Atheistically
Please try and keep up, who's asserted belief? you imagine all biblical authors believed the same things ?
psychoslice
Veteran Member
Yes I don't have a lot to say because you cannot say a lot about truth, the more you say the more ignorant you make yourself. I once belonged to the Seventh Day Adventist church and was there for about 16 years, I always felt uneasy about the church, like most churches they keep you separated from God and make you feel that you had to deserve God and his love. Jesus to me was just an ordinary man who was Enlightened, he realized that he was One with the Source, or God the father which is only a metaphor, I myself had an experience in Consciousness and realized that which men like Jesus also realized, its our own inner Being that connected us to all there is, nothing is really separate only the mind makes it so. The mind is our carnal self, its our animal self, for that is what we are as the mind body organism, an animal, , there is nothing wrong in being an animal, its only when we suffer the material world, and our inner Being is calling us home. many feel this calling but have no idea what it is, so they try and find what this feeling is, many try to find it in all sorts of ways, drugs, sex, belief systems, and even sports. Just as the wave above the ocean is one with the ocean, we are also one with the Cosmos, and all is pure Source, just like all rivers trying to get back the sea, we are also like river trying to get back to our true home. Consciousness.
The only hell that exist is the hell we make for ourselves, the hell is a construction of the ego, the ego like to have you on a path, or anything that will keep you away from ever finding your true inner Self, religions are very good at doing this, they have their beautiful stories and philosophies that hypnotise the follows of that beliefs system keeping them in a beautiful prison of words and beliefs, to challenge these beliefs will cause on to become angry, which really is nothing more than fear, the ego fearing that its going to be found out, and this is what happened to me, I didn't need the church any longer, for I was all there is already, I was wasting my time trying to find something out there when all along it was within me, and its within everyone else, now go within and find it for yourself.
psychoslice
Veteran Member
I have also seen people within a church all of their life and also are bitter.
I actually feel bad because I forgot to put that in quotes and not only was I quoting, but I'm pretty sure I was quoting Flanders & Swann. Regardless, I gave no indication that I wasn't being original, thus basically plagiarizing by passing off someone else's amusing quip as my own, which violates my (obsessively neurotic need) to, if not properly cite, at least clearly express that I am quoting or paraphrasing others. Excuse me while I berate myself and spend several allows wallowing in self-hatred for violating my rules.
You mean those without an undergrad in religion, an M.A. in religion/biblical studies, and a PhD in Biblical interpretation who teach NT studies? Because such "normal humans" might do well to listen to an expert in this field and angellous is one. I haven't read his book, but I have read the dissertation it was turned into and several hundred of his posts here. You are mistaking the responses of one who has dealt, time and time again, with those whose ignorance on topics such as this is matched only by their certainty in their own flawed views, and who deals with this better than I by using e.g., humor rather than insulting, irritating dismissals of ignorant posts/responses.
This makes me think of a novel I read called The Knowledge of Good and Evil which postulated that the levels of heaven and hell are all related to parts of realms of the brain, and that Milton and Dante; in particular Dante, took their fiction from that. Its actually a fascinating book based on Thomas Merton and the above but the bottom line is.....Its fiction. And nothing more than that.
Which means it isn't necessary. Gotcha.
This still doesn't address those who don't know enough to seek god, or those who remain unconvinced of its necessity.
If they don't know exactly what it means then why do they use it?
Telling someone who asks an honest question that it doesn't need to be answered is a cop-out.
So in the end, having faith in Jesus Christ as one's savior is irrelevant.
If faith and piety figure into the final scoring then they do figure into the basis of separating the sheep from the goats in the Last Judgment. Which is it: they do or do not figure into the basis?
So if people get a break for not having heard of Jesus, then it stands to reason hearing of Jesus could be a real detriment. Ergo, people are better of remaining ignorant of him and god. Hmmm.
I cannot account for your feigned or real lack of comprehension. So I question the value of me trying again.
I can see from your answers that your Western protestant theology is horribly lacking. Its black or white simplicity answers almost no questions. I imagine you are totally convinced the moment one dies they are immediately assigned to heaven or hell. And because you have been assured for your own personal state, that settles it.
Yes, you love your Bible and you love your favored preachers. And you take what sounds so sweet and ignore those words that are hard to bear or hard to explain. Such comfort. And I suppose my Catholic Church, according to you, was born the day Constantine no longer criminalized it for Rome. Up until then it was filled with saintly men, and after that it somehow turned heretical?
Luther and Calvin and fundamentalism theologies all lack mercy and avoid all the troubling pieces of Scripture. They all want salvation dependent upon some altar call where the soul accepts Jesus and their Lord and Savior and then voilà they are saved. And by that they mean they are guaranteed heaven upon the moment of death. Of course, with some of you people, a soul can fall away, but with others like Calvin, once saved always saved. The latter is hogwash, the former sure is problematic as well. Explain to me how a soul loses its salvation. What sin in particular, since you are so intent on pinning me down for particulars?
So suffice it to say this --- until you can come to the realization that the body and blood of Jesus Christ is present in the Holy sacrifice of the mass, your theology will be horribly barren. Until you can come to admit that confession by an ordained priest is not only Biblical but of incalculable importance, your theology will be horribly barren. Until you can come to understand purgatory is found throughout Scripture, you theology will be horribly flawed. Until your churches start honoring the Virgin Mother and welcoming prayers to her, you will be hurting her Father in heaven. “From this day forward all generations shall call me blessed.” Hardly the case except in Catholicism.
So you suggest, since I state those who have been given the understanding of the gospels are more accountable to the salvation truth than those who remain totally ignorant on some remote island --- would it not be better we do not witness to them? The answer is, no, it would not be better. Jesus did not say go out and preach the good news to all corners of the world if it would have been better not to have done so. Do you not see all of the benefits the world has begotten because of Christianity? Do you not see a more civilized, caring and brave world in those who have been converted? Again, you do not have the least bit of knowledge about how long suffering and agonizing purgatory can be. For those who do not know Jesus, they are judged on how they may have acted upon a well-formed conscience. They will have a great deal to learn about the love of God, etc. while in purgatory. In addition, if they were not given the good news then neither would their neighbor or nation. Great pains and perils often accompany those lands where there is no love of Jesus preached. We are all accountable to our fellow man. God did not intend for the world to remain blind. If it was destined for a person to hear the gospel while on earth, then God’s will be done.
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Thanks for your concern.
I have neither the time nor the desire to research the body of work of said author, expert. His responses to me were more an attempt to be quick and witty and cutting than they were to address a particular issue or challenge.
I imagine he is not thin-skinned and if he truly wanted to engage in some level of discourse he would. Until then I stand by my own opinion of him.