james2ko
Well-Known Member
Feel better now that you got that off your chest? Sounds like you're experiencing symptoms of cognitive dissonance. A break from this forum will relieve the symptoms.
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Revelation 20 - Earthly Reign?
- Thread starter katiemygirl
- Start date
Feel better now that you got that off your chest? Sounds like you're experiencing symptoms of cognitive dissonance. A break from this forum will relieve the symptoms.
james2ko
Well-Known Member
Gee you guys have been busy and I've got some reading to do!But before I do, this question stood out to me and I thought I'd try to answer it.
Hi James, firstly the NT isn't the only part of Scripture we should rely on for this, because the OT also has a habit of revealing deeper meanings to some of the symbols. Below are just some examples I found that should help show that all animals spoken of in Scripture represent people:
"Her princes in the midst thereof are like wolves ravening the prey, to shed blood, and to destroy souls, to get dishonest gain." Eze 22:27
"We roar all like bears, and mourn sore like doves: we look for judgment, butthere isnone; for salvation,butit is far off from us."Isa 59:11
"And ye my flock, the flock of my pasture, are men, and I am your God, saith the Lord GOD." Eze 34:31
"Rebuke the company of spearmen, the multitude of the bulls, with the calves of the people, till every one submit himself with pieces of silver: scatter thou the people that delight in war." Psa 68:30
"My soul is among lions:andI lieeven amongthem that are set on fire,even the sons of men, whose teetharespears and arrows, and their tongue a sharp sword."Psa 57:4
A verse I only found tonight should be considered as it is spoken in relation to the New Covenant and it is this:
"Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will sow the house of Israel and the house of Judah with the seed of man, and with the seed of beast." Jer 31:27
Note that just a few verses later He repeats this phrase "Behold, the days come, saith the LORD" and goes on to speak of the New Covenant:
"Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:" Jer 31:31
Recall also that the Apostle Peter makes this connection between unclean animals and people of other nations:
"And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean." Act 10:28
"Wherein were all manner of fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air. And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; kill, and eat. But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean. And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common." Act 10:12-15
Consider this forum in light of these Scriptures. It could be said that this forum is a partial fulfilment of Isaiah 11:6-9. Before the invention of the internet such a varied collection of people from around the world being able to converse openly about their faith without threat of harm or even death was unheard of! Let's be thankful to God for what we have been given! I know myself, I couldn't imagine having ever spoken in person what I have written on this forum.
I am not totally against biblically symbolism. There is certainly room for it in scripture. As a matter of fact, a literal interpretation of the Bible allows for figurative language. Here’s a simple rule: if the literal meaning of a passage leads to obvious absurdity, but a figurative meaning yields clarity, then the passage is probably symbolic. For example, in Exodus 19:4, God tells Israel, “I carried you on eagles’ wings.”
A literal reading of this statement would lead to absurdity—God did not use real eagles to airlift His people out of Egypt. The statement is obviously symbolic; God is emphasizing the speed and strength with which He delivered Israel. This leads to another rule of biblical interpretation: a symbol will have a non-symbolic meaning. In other words, there is something real (a real person, a real historical event, a real trait) behind every figure of speech. Such is the case with most of the passages you posted.
Scripture reveals massive changes on the earth upon Christ's return, including changes in human behavior. Thus there is nothing absurd about the "real" animals In Isaiah 11:6-9 also exhibiting behavioral changes.
james2ko
Well-Known Member
1. It seems to me you are unwittingly engaging in fallacious behavior called moving the goal posts. http://www.logicallyfallacious.com/index.php/logical-fallacies/130-moving-the-goal-posts.
Once I reconciled all of the passages of a present and future kingdom with all of its aspects by proposing a phased in kingdom, you now seek greater evidence for the proposal. The tactic will eventually lead to the impossible.
Your impossible request for one verse containing specific aspects of a doctrine is as logical as asking someone to provide the one piece of a 1,000 piece puzzle that shows you what the full puzzle will look like when fully put together .
2. As soon as you quote a specific one that explains how is it that Jesus is exercising His full authority over this current evil, godless world. As you can see, two can play “moving the goal posts” game.
3. I think it’s a little different than the arbitrary symbolism of scripture and illogical reasoning some use to claim Christ is somehow presently ruling this evil world.
4. Take a good look at the world around you. Who else is behind the current debauchery ? Satan--the ruler of this present world. I'm sure you won't ask for a specific scripture reference for that one
5. But there too many scriptures that testify His kingdom will not be exclusively spiritual when he returns .
6. Precisely. Christ is living now, yet Every knee is not bowing and every tongue is not acknowledging Him, Hence the kingdom cannot currently be here, as you propose. So logic tells us there must be a phase or part(s) of the kingdom, like its subjects, laws, and territory that have yet to be manifested.
7. It's called logic and inference from many scriptures. Which God requires we exercise when interpreting His word (Isa 1:18; 28:10). How else would the Ninevites and the queen of the south find out about the unbelief of Christ's generation and condemn it, unless they had a period of time to do so?
8. I can agree with that. A resurrection whether to physical or immortal life is a miracle from God. And He will once again fulfill His purpose by setting aside the natural order for the rest of the dead who will be resurrected back to physical life.
9. The point I was making was that if Heb 9:27 is taken literally, as you propose, it would contradict scripture. So we must conclude it is a Hebrew idiomatic expression. Similar to one of our modern ones, "you only die once" .
10. Then you would have to also agree God determines when men live and how they are brought back to life.
11. I think you misunderstand or are unaware of the principles in Isa 1:18 and Isa 28:10 . It implies you will not find one verse that specifically states and fully explains one or more aspects of a belief or doctrine. We have to look throughout scripture and take concepts and precepts, utilize sound reasoning, and put them together to come to a logical conclusion. For example:
God says He wants no one to perish but desires that all men be saved and come to repentance and the knowledge of Christ (2 pe 3:9;1 Ti 2:4). Since the name of Jesus is the only name under heaven men can be saved and not perish (Act 4:12), we can reasonably infer that God will give those who never heard His name a chance to do so.
We take this information and look in the scriptures to see if we can find evidence of this event. And there is. Christ's intriguing testimony about the queen of the south and the Ninevites is one of several clues. You see how it works--line upon line (verse upon verse) , precept upon precept, here a little there a little. Then draw a sound conclusion.
I'm not claiming the belief of a second chance at physical life as gospel. Only claiming that it makes sense from a scriptural and logical standpoint. If you have a another scenario that is scripturally supported and consistent with God's nature, by all means.
12. Yes it is plainly written as the very next verse plainly states these people "knew" God:
Rom 1:21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened.
When read in context, Paul is referring to Christians who knew God, perhaps turning away and or became unbelievers. These are Christians who thought they knew Christ, but Christ said He never knew them! (Mat 7:21-23).
13. I would have to disagree. My entire argument is based on good grammatical, logical, contextual exegesis, which is solidly supported by scripture. I would appreciate if you include the numbers of my points in your reply. It makes for easier reference.
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Mountain_Climber
Active Member
Sorry if that sounds crude to you but I mean every word of it.Feel better now that you got that off your chest? Sounds like you're experiencing symptoms of cognitive dissonance. A break from this forum will relieve the symptoms.
Long before Jacob's children took possession of Jerusalem it was in existence. From out of it ruled Melchizedek, a king/priest of a higher order than that of the Priesthood of Levi. Yet you seem to think that Jerusalem being supported of God has to mean Jacob's flesh and blood children.
I realize you do not understand what you are doing and that for me to tell you that you are teaching others that God shows partiality to men by flesh you will find that just as offensive. But none-the-less, that is what you are teaching others despite the fact that both the Hebrew/Aramaic Scriptures and the New Testament tell us that God does not show partiality by any man's flesh.
My concern is that any Gentile who has failed to understand but yet preaches such ideas as you preach centering on the flesh of men only works to further hold my brothers back and helps them to stay imprisoned by their pride in their flesh and blood.
In Adam we are all one flesh. As Paul said, "there is one flesh of men".... 1 Corinthians 15:39 "All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds."
The flesh and blood relationship had nothing to do with anything other than being a biological pointer so as to be able to pinpoint who the Messiah was when he entered the world. And that is the full extent of God's use of the flesh. And along the way to that God demonstrated quite well that when anyone's pride is in their flesh nothing good comes out of it.
Paul is speaking of that pride in the flesh, here: Romans 7:18 "For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not."
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katiemygirl
CHRISTIAN
How can there be peace if there is sin? Sin is greed, pride, immorality, murder, lying, stealing, etc. Is that your idea of peace?
moorea944
Well-Known Member
Ok. I"ll explain myself alittle differently this time. During the thousand years the whole world will be filled with the knowledge of the Lord. Meaning, everyone will know God and Jesus. Not like it is today... They will be taught God's Word. It also says that "Satan" will be bound for a thousand years, meaning, "sin" or the was of the flesh, will be bound during that time. Sin is anything opposite of God's way. Might be an act or just thinking of something. Doesnt have to be murder or thieft. The angels with the Glorified Saints will be on earth and seen by the mortals, teaching the world. They will be greatly involved with the people of the earth.
Peace on earth. No more wars or fighting. A whole new government and way of life when our Lord is back ruling from Jerusalem. The kingdom of man is now destroyed as it tells us in Daniel 2. Peace on earth. Cant wait!!
james2ko
Well-Known Member
1. Crude? lol...I was born and raised in the NYC area. I've been called and gestured much worse than that by children. We up here become callous to name calling and false accusations. Not that I'll be your doormat, because I will respond and when I do, you better make sure you are ready to receive what you dish out. Sort of like Jesus handled the Pharisees on occasion.
2. The scriptures clearly teach He will live and rule over the world in Jerusalem. The scriptures also teach the world outside of the Jews will get to know and acknowledge Christ as their savior. So yes, I think this because that is what the literal scriptures state.
3. Really? He kicked the fleshly Canaanites out of Canaan showing partiality to the fleshly Israelites,and before you mention it, the reason He did so is irrelevant within the context of your point. He said He loved physical Jacob and hated his physical brother Esau. Showing partiality to, again, the Israelites. Even if you say the term for "hate" means loved less, which it does not in this context, it is still showing partiality to fleshly Israel. I can see God shaking His head at you saying, "Who does this puny human think He is dictating what I should do?"
4. Yes. Flesh and blood is the biological pointer to the Messiah upon His first coming and all human beings now. But that is not the extent of God's use of the flesh. Jesus demonstrated what our heavenly bodies would look and feel like to His disciples. It had the ability to transform to an invisible spirit, as well as flesh and bone. If God was such against flesh, as you propose, Christ's heavenly body, and in turn our future one, would not have the ability to become flesh. So the scriptures plainly teach the flesh is an integral part of our current and eternal existence.
5. I find it quite ironic you talk about "pride in the flesh" while in the same breath patronizingly accuse me of being blinded, in error, and not understanding. If that doesn't scream hypocrite, I don't know what does. You are beginning to sound like a snooty, self-righteous Pharisee. If that is the case, you will be treated like one. So prepare yourself.
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moorea944
Well-Known Member
I just dont understand why more people dont understand this!! Doesnt anyone read the OT anymore???? Blows my mind! Daniel 2 tells us the meaning of King Neb's dream. That the kingdoms of man will be destroyed and God's kingdom will fill the whole earth.
Isa 2 Tells us the Jesus will rule from Jerusalem and God's Word will come out from there. People from all nations will go to Jerusalem to worship the Lord. On and on and on. How many verses like this?
Psalms 72.. "The kings of Tarshish and of the isles shall bring presents: the kings of Sheba and Seba shall offer gifts. Yea, all kings shall fall down before him: all nations shall serve him."
Jer 3 "And it shall come to pass, when ye be multiplied and increased in the land, in those days, saith the LORD, they shall say no more, The ark of the covenant of the LORD: neither shall it come to mind: neither shall they remember it; neither shall they visit it; neither shall that be done any more.
17 At that time they shall call Jerusalem the throne of the LORD; and all the nations shall be gathered unto it, to the name of the LORD, to Jerusalem: neither shall they walk any more after the imagination of their evil heart.
18 In those days the house of Judah shall walk with the house of Israel, and they shall come together out of the land of the north to the land that I have given for an inheritance unto your fathers."
Look at the book of Zech!! chapters 8-14.
I mean we can just fill a whole page of how the world is going to change when our Lord is here on earth. Which also tells us that the kingdom is NOT here yet........
james2ko
Well-Known Member
I think I know at least one reason why.....MC said it himself (herself)....It just sounds like God is favoring the Israelites by having Jesus dwell with them. I'm not sure what the problem is with that. He could rule from Antarctica for all I care. Unless there is more behind their motive than meets the eye.
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moorea944
Well-Known Member
Good point. The other thing that I read too is that it is for us too. Not just for the Jews. Paul even says about baptism and the promises, "For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise." And what was Abraham promised? Awesome stuff! Wonderful to read! And we are part of that too!
So we now we can be part of those promises made to our fathers back in the days of old. Wonderful thing. All nations will be blessed. But of course for only those who believe.and have faith. God gave Abraham land (Israel) to inherit. Him and Jesus hold the title deeds to that land. We read in Gal 3
14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
15 Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man’s covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto.
16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
We'll be given that land when our Lord comes back. Christ will be here to "setup" the coming Kingdom. Thy kingdom come, thy will be done.!!
james2ko
Well-Known Member
I generally agree. I view those passages in a slightly different context than most. When I have more time, perhaps we can discuss it on another thread.
moorea944
Well-Known Member
Sound great. Looking forward to it!!
Mountain_Climber
Active Member
In your post 82 you said, "Scripture reveals massive changes on the earth upon Christ's return, including changes in human behavior. Thus there is nothing absurd about the "real" animals In Isaiah 11:6-9 also exhibiting behavioral changes."
You are right when you said, “changes in human behavior:, but as to those animals of Isaiah 11:6-9 those are clearly men whose dominant traits were as those of beasts for verse 9 shows the reason they no longer "harm nor destroy on all my holy mountain" is that "the earth will be filled with the knowledge of Yahweh”, showing that these were beasts who were able to take in knowledge and be changed by that knowledge.
Yes, that comparison is a play on Genesis 1:26 "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.” And as it concerns humans who had changed the glory of the incorruptible God into a glory like that of beasts (as Paul points out at Romans 1:23) it relates to what king Solomon spoke: Ecclesiastes 3:18 “I also said to myself, “As for human beings, God tests them so that they may see that they are like the animals.”
You can resist that all you want but you cannot make Isaiah 11:6-9 about literal animals, for they have not been responsible in any way, shape, or fashion for the “ruin on [or, “in”] all my holy mountain.” That responsibility was clearly lain upon these men who corrupted the glory of God they were meant to be so that they became like unthinking beasts: Psalms 49:12, 20; Daniel 5:21; Revelation 11:18
Further, in the context of Isaiah 11 it is clear that this mountain of God fills the earth the same as the knowledge of God fills the earth, “as the waters cover the sea.”
Granted, you are teaching concerning Isaiah 11 pretty much the same thing Jehovah's Witnesses teach, but neither is that proof you are right. That does prove you are not too far abnormal as compared to others in your views but it does not prove you right.
No my friend, it is not me who has a problem with pride causing me to be unable to see but the one who in post 87 said, “I can see God shaking His head at you saying, "Who does this puny human think He is dictating what I should do?"” And it is the one that in post 87 said, “If that is the case, you will be treated like one. So prepare yourself.”
Though my mind be slow of age and health issues, thanks to Yahweh's imparting of strength to me I rest in his confidence. Neither you nor I are mightier than truth. And only a fool fears truth and rebels against it.
katiemygirl
CHRISTIAN
There is but one hope of maintaining the purity of Christianity. That can be done only when the principle of the silence of the Scriptures is revered. I asked you to provide Scripture, which specifically said the kingdom would come in phases. You couldn't do it. Instead, you strung numerous verses together to support your doctrine, which is precisely what cults, like the JW's do. I can invent a doctrine and prove it is truth using your methodology. For every true Biblical doctrine, there is clearly stated Scripture, which supports it.
Not impossible at all. If the Bible doesn't clearly state it, then you are walking on very thin ice. You are relying on private interpretation.
I will quote not just one, but two.
First, and once again, Jesus was given ALL authority in heaven and earth.
Jesus said ALL authority (not some) on earth and in heaven has been given to me. Peter wrote that authorities and powers are subjected to Him (1 Peter 3:18-22).
Who do you think these authorities and powers are? When plainly written Scriptures say Jesus has ALL authority on earth and in heaven, and authorities and powers are subjected to Him, you are in direct conflict with the word of God when you say otherwise.
Matthew 28:18
Jesus came and told his disciples,“I have been given all authority in heaven and on earth.
1Peter 3:18-22
For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit, in which he went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison, because they formerly did not obey, when God's patience waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through water. Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers having been subjected to him.
1 Cor. 15
27 For the Scriptures say, “God has put all things under his authority.”
You asked for a Scripture that tells how
is it that Jesus is exercising His full authority over this current evil, godless world. Here's how.
Paul contended that it is by the authority of Christ that “all things hold together” (Col. 1:17).
Jesus, is said to “uphold all things by his powerful word” (Heb. 1:3).
Were it not for the sustaining authority of the Son of God, our universe would come apart at the seams! There would be utter chaos.
If Jesus so chose, He could end it all right this second. He could destroy Satan and put an end to death, tossing them both into the lake of fire. Jesus has ALL authority. He can do anything He chooses whenever He wants to.
There is no question Satan is the ruler of the world, but in what sense does Satan "rule" the world? The Bible never teaches that Satan actually rules over the entire world, but that he is ruler over the rebellion against God. The kingdoms of the world are made up of people and systems in rebellion against God, and Satan is allowed to move freely about, convincing people to join him in his rebellion against God.
Remember, all authority comes from God (Romans 14:1). Jesus got His authority from God, but God NEVER gave Satan authority.
Any authority that Satan exercises was taken, not given.
I see only one second coming written about in the Bible. You claim there are two. Please quote specific Scripture that speaks of two second comings of Christ to earth.
Jesus is King. Christians are His subjects. The New Testament is His law, and the earth is His territory or realm of influence. Each is an aspect of the kingdom, not a phase, and I have given you much Scriptural support that the kingdom is here NOW, and Jesus has been given ALL, not part, authority to rule His kingdom.
Paul says there will be a time when every knee shall bow and every tongue confess. When Jesus came the first time, He was humiliated and rejected. He is still being rejected. When He comes again, people will see Him for who He truly is, King of kings, Lord of lords. It is then every knee will bow and every tongue will confess.
Yes, logic and inference are both required, but no amount of logic or inference should ever contradict the plain language of Scripture. When logic and inference contradict the plain language of Scripture, bells and whistles should be sounding all over the place.
Poetry and prophesy should not be treated as straightforward narrative. Obscure and ambiguous passages should always be interpreted in the light of plain and obvious clear passages. Let literal passages interpret figurative passages, not vice versa.
No Scripture teaches a resurrection to "physical life." If you can find plainly written Scripture that says such a thing, post it please.
Show me Scripture that contradicts that we only experience ONE physical death.
My friend, let us reason together. I want you to look very closely at this passage and then tell me whether the "once" in verses 26 and 28 means something different than the "once" in verse 28.
Hebrews 9
23 Therefore it was necessary for the copies of the things in the heavens to be cleansed with these, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. 24 For Christ did not enter a holy place made with hands, a mere copy of the true one, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us; 25 nor was it that He would offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the holy place year by year with blood that is not his own. 26 Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. 27 And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment, 28 so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him.
It is appointed for men to die ONCE, SO CHRIST ALSO HAVING BEEN OFFERED ONCE.
Now tell me, when the Hebrew author says Jesus was offered ONCE, am I to believe this is a HEBREW IDIOMATIC EXPRESSION?
Please pray about this.
Will write more on Romans 1 in a little bit.
You repeatedly ignore the plain language of Scripture. You let figurative passages interpret literal ones. That is poor exegesis.
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Mountain_Climber
Active Member
Hebrews 9
23 Therefore it was necessary for the copies of the things in the heavens to be cleansed with these, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. 24 For Christ did not enter a holy place made with hands, a mere copy of the true one, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us; 25 nor was it that He would offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the holy place year by year with blood that is not his own. 26 Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. 27 And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment, 28 so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him.
It is appointed for men to die ONCE, SO CHRIST ALSO HAVING BEEN OFFERED ONCE.
Now tell me, when the Hebrew author says Jesus was offered ONCE, am I to believe this is a HEBREW IDIOMATIC EXPRESSION?
Please pray about this.[/QUOTE]
Contrast that to this: Hebrews 6:6 "If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame."
So then it is up to us to make sure that we do not misunderstand and so try to use what Christ did in a way that equates to crucifying him all over again.
How is that possible if what Christ did pertains to our literal death? If what Christ did pertains to our literal death could we yet be alive to act in a way that crucifies to ourselves the Son of God afresh?
katiemygirl
CHRISTIAN
The passage is crystal clear. Men die once. In the same way, Christ sacrificedHimself once.
In no way does Hebrews 6:6 negate 9:27. The verse simply says that those who turn away after having been cleansed, are metaphorically crucifying the Savior all over again.
Mountain_Climber
Active Member
I agree that it does not nullify that we have it once to die if that literal death be all that Hebrews 9:27 is referring to.
But is that literal death what Hebrews 9:27 is referring to? Or is what Paul said at Hebrews 9:27 an abbreviated way of saying, "And as it is appointed unto men once to die [to sin], but after this the judgment"? Romans 6:2 "God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?"
Doesn't it make sense that the only way we can crucify Christ afresh is if that death Hebrews 9:27 speaks of is a requirement for all to die to sin once for all time?
Mountain_Climber
Active Member
As a supplement to post 97:
Paul, who knows better what he meant at Hebrews 9:27 than anyone else being as he is the one who spoke it, showed the purpose behind this appointment once to die when he said at Romans 6:7 "For he that is dead is freed from sin."
Some may reason that cannot be so, thinking that if it were so then there would be no judgment afterward for all. And it is true that Hebrews 9:27 does indicate that there is afterward a judgment for all.
So the question is then, 'Does our being acquitted of sins in this life through having died in Christ mean that we do not face God's coming judgment of all? The answer is, 'No, it does not relieve us of God's final judgment of us.'
Some would object to that, claiming that Paul said different at 1 Corinthians 11:31 "For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged." But Paul is speaking there of our being judged now as to our conduct in God's church after having died to sin in Christ, 1 Corinthians 11:32 "But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world." This contrasts the sins we are acquitted of through Christ which are, "sins that are past": Romans 3:25 "Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God.."
And so we see that Hebrews 9:27 can mean at physical death for those who have not given themselves to die to themselves and live for God in imitation of Christ's spirit, or it can mean dying to ourselves and living for God in imitation of Christ's spirit.
Paul, who knows better what he meant at Hebrews 9:27 than anyone else being as he is the one who spoke it, showed the purpose behind this appointment once to die when he said at Romans 6:7 "For he that is dead is freed from sin."
Some may reason that cannot be so, thinking that if it were so then there would be no judgment afterward for all. And it is true that Hebrews 9:27 does indicate that there is afterward a judgment for all.
So the question is then, 'Does our being acquitted of sins in this life through having died in Christ mean that we do not face God's coming judgment of all? The answer is, 'No, it does not relieve us of God's final judgment of us.'
Some would object to that, claiming that Paul said different at 1 Corinthians 11:31 "For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged." But Paul is speaking there of our being judged now as to our conduct in God's church after having died to sin in Christ, 1 Corinthians 11:32 "But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world." This contrasts the sins we are acquitted of through Christ which are, "sins that are past": Romans 3:25 "Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God.."
And so we see that Hebrews 9:27 can mean at physical death for those who have not given themselves to die to themselves and live for God in imitation of Christ's spirit, or it can mean dying to ourselves and living for God in imitation of Christ's spirit.
katiemygirl
CHRISTIAN
No, it does not make sense at all!
The author is speaking of physical and not spiritual death.
The death in Heb. 9:27 is followed by judgement. That is explicit in the text. People who are not christians are spiritually dead. They are not standing before the judgement seat of Christ at this time. As long as they remain alive, they have opportunity to obey the gospel. We will all stand before the judgement seat of Christ when we physically die.
You are trying to impose your doctrine onto the plain and straightforward narrative of the passage.
Mountain_Climber
Active Member
I am telling what Paul himself meant.
We all face standing before the judgment seat of God, period.
2 Corinthians 5:10 "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad."
That judgment begins for those who have died in Christ in the spiritual sense while they yet live:
1 Peter 4:17 "For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?
18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?
19 Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator."
It proceeds in that way Katie so that the True Temple stones will be ready to participate in the judgment of those who had not yet known Christ. And that happens at their resurrection.
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