Jesus and Paul's teachings, Is there a difference?

Yoshua · Jul 30, 2015

Simplelogic said:
This has nothing to do with Paul's doctrine of "faith alone". Notice that Jesus equates faith with WORKS. Look at what he says about the woman in this parable:

I entered into thine house, thou gavest me no water for my feet: but she hath washed my feet with tears (action), and wiped them with the hairs of her head. 45Thou gavest me no kiss: but this woman since the time I came in hath not ceased to kiss my feet (action). 46My head with oil thou didst not anoint: but this woman hath anointed my feet with ointment (action). 47Wherefore I say unto thee, Her sins, which are many, are forgiven; because she loved much: but to whom little is forgiven, the same loveth little. Luke 7: 44-46

Paul taught that faith (without any works) is what saves people. Jesus is saying the EXACT OPPOSITE in this parable. Her "faith" was actually works!

Hi Simplelogic,

Luke 7:36-50
36. Now one of the Pharisees was requesting Him to dine with him. And He entered the Pharisee's house, and reclined at the table.
37. And behold, there was a woman in the city who was a sinner; and when she learned that He was reclining at the table in the Pharisee's house, she brought an alabaster vial of perfume,
38. and standing behind Him at His feet, weeping, she began to wet His feet with her tears, and kept wiping them with the hair of her head, and kissing His feet, and anointing them with the perfume.
39. Now when the Pharisee who had invited Him saw this, he said to himself, "If this man were a prophet He would know who and what sort of person this woman is who is touching Him, that she is a sinner."

Parable of Two Debtors
40. And Jesus answered and said to him, "Simon, I have something to say to you." And he replied, "Say it, Teacher."
41. "A certain moneylender had two debtors: one owed five hundred denarii, and the other fifty.
42. "When they were unable to repay, he graciously forgave them both. Which of them therefore will love him more?"
43. Simon answered and said, "I suppose the one whom he forgave more." And He said to him, "You have judged correctly."
44. And turning toward the woman, He said to Simon, "Do you see this woman? I entered your house; you gave Me no water for My feet, but she has wet My feet with her tears, and wiped them with her hair.
45. "You gave Me no kiss; but she, since the time I came in, has not ceased to kiss My feet.
46. "You did not anoint My head with oil, but she anointed My feet with perfume.
47. "For this reason I say to you, her sins, which are many, have been forgiven, for she loved much; but he who is forgiven little, loves little."
48. And He said to her, "Your sins have been forgiven."
49. And those who were reclining at the table with Him began to say to themselves, "Who is this man who even forgives sins?"
50. And He said to the woman, "Your faith has saved you; go in peace."

Let us check why Jesus’ faith and Paul’s faith is consistent with each other. I believe that (we) people like Simon, the Pharisee looks at the external and not internal. Jesus Christ never stop to show to the Pharisees that being self-righteous is not acceptable in God’s kingdom. This chapter showed the self righteousness of Simon, the Pharisee and the repentant woman.

Yes indeed, faith has saved the woman. If her faith was actually works, why Jesus acknowledge, forgive and declared salvation to her? Therefore, that would mean the Pharisees should be given salvation than the woman? Pharisees based their salvation by works. If Pharisees and the woman have the same faith, why Jesus should say the following statement at v.44 And turning toward the woman, He said to Simon, "Do you see this woman? I entered your house; you gave Me no water for My feet, but she has wet My feet with her tears, and wiped them with her hair?

Who knows our faith with God? Faith is invincible in our eyes, but our showmanship of faith can be seen by people around us. This example of faith by the woman and the faith by the thief on the cross (beside Jesus) are proof that faith saves. This is the reason why Paul said in Eph. 2:8-9, 8. For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9. not as a result of works, that no one should boast. 10. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

All who come to Him for forgiveness and salvation will be saved. That would mean our work is the result of our faith.

There are two statements that separate this two for better understanding:
1.) I do good works because I am a Christian (Jesus –Luke 7:50;Paul’s –Eph. 2:8-9)
2.) I do good works because I would like to be a Christian (Pharisees)

For Jesus and Paul, a Christian do good works because of his faith; the good works automatically shows.
For the Pharisee, a Christian do good works to show/display that he is a follower of God. This what Jesus hates-a legalistic way of following God.

Thanks

Yoshua · Jul 30, 2015

Simplelogic said:
Just so you are fully aware. I completely reject all of Paul's letters. They are not proof to me of anything but lies. You have to convince me that Jesus taught what Paul taught. Or you have to convince me that Paul's doctrines can be found in the Tanakh (OT).

Hi Simplelogic,

Kindly take a look at the following similarities between Jesus and Paul's statement:

"For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son also gives life to whom He wishes," (John 5:21) - Jesus
"For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all shall be made alive," (1 Cor. 15:22) - Paul

"For this reason I say to you, do not be anxious for your life, as to what you shall eat, or what you shall drink; nor for your body, as to what you shall put on. Is not life more than food, and the body than clothing?" (Matt. 6:25) - Jesus
"Be anxious for nothing, but in everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known to God," (Phil. 4:6) - Paul

"I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep," (John 10:11) - Jesus
"and walk in love, just as Christ also loved you, and gave Himself up for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God as a fragrant aroma," (Eph. 5:2) - Paul

"Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am," (John 8:58). Compare with Exodus 3:14, "And God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM"; and He said, "Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, "I AM has sent me to you." - Jesus
"For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form," (Col. 2:9). See also, Phil. 2:5-8 - Paul

"For if you forgive men for their transgressions, your heavenly Father will also forgive you," (Matt. 6:14) - Jesus
"And be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you," (Eph. 4:32) - Paul

"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life," (John 5:24). See also John 3:16-18; Luke 18:9-13 - Jesus
"Therefore having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ," (Rom. 5:1) - Paul

"Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish, but to fulfill," (Matt. 5:17) - Jesus
"Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law," (Rom. 3:31) - Paul
"What I am saying is this: the Law, which came four hundred and thirty years later, does not invalidate a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to nullify the promise," (Gal. 3:17) - Paul

"You shall not commit murder; You shall not commit adultery; You shall not steal; You shall not bear false witness; 19 Honor your father and mother; and You shall love your neighbor as yourself," (Matt. 19:18-19) - Jesus
"Owe nothing to anyone except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law. 9 For this, "You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not covet," and if there is any other commandment, it is summed up in this saying, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." 10 Love does no wrong to a neighbor; love therefore is the fulfillment of the law," (Rom. 13:8-10) - Paul

"The Son of Man is going to be delivered into the hands of men; 23 and they will kill Him, and He will be raised on the third day," (Matt. 17:22-23) - Jesus
"For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures," (1 Cor. 15:3-4) - Paul

"For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, slanders. 20 "These are the things which defile the man; but to eat with unwashed hands does not defile the man," (Matt. 15:19-20) - Jesus
"There is none who understands, There is none who seeks for God; 12 All have turned aside, together they have become useless; There is none who does good, There is not even one," (Rom. 3:11-12) - Paul

"And why do you yourselves transgress the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition?" (Matt. 15:3) - Jesus
"See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ," (Col. 2:8) - Paul

"Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' 23 "And then I will declare to them, "I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness," (Matt. 7:22-23) - Jesus
"Now that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, "The righteous man shall live by faith," (Gal. 3:11) - Paul

Simplelogic said:
Also. You seem to think that following God's law is an "all or nothing" thing, where if you make one mistake you are then cast off. This is not, nor has it ever been the case. There is a little thing called repentance (turning from evil to good) that allows us to be reconnected to God if we fall away from Him. See Ezekiel 18.

Who am I to discard the Scriptures? Old Testament and New Testament are considered the Holy Scriptures. I do not discard the Old Testament nor not respecting the Scriptures. Jesus used “Do not kill”, adultery, loving the Lord thy God and loving thy neighbor which is sourced from the Mosaic laws (see above scripture comparison).

Yes, repentance. I agree with you. John the Baptist calls for repentance and baptism. Jesus came here to offer Himself as atonement for the sinners instead of atonement in the Old Testament. The law is good since this is the foundation of what God has given to the Israelites, but living with the law in bondage and legalism is bad. God looks at the heart, and not our actions.

Through Christ, the prophecy was fulfilled. It is not the Old Testament law. The fulfillment that Jesus was saying is the expansion of the law by grace that was given to us. He did not come to add another law for the Jews like the Mosaic laws. He used that law to serve the purpose of redeeming us from the bondage of legalism and pointed us to the hope of salvation.

One example is the law “Thou shall not kill.” This is still applicable to us for Jews and Gentiles. The ceremonial laws are not applicable to Gentiles but for the Israel.

Thanks

savagewind · Jul 30, 2015

Yoshua said:
John 5:38-40
38. But you are not listening to him, for you refuse to believe me--the one sent to you with God's message.
39. ``You search the Scriptures, for you believe they give you eternal life. And the Scriptures point to me!
40. Yet you won't come to me so that I can give you this life eternal!(LVB)

The Jews did not believe Jesus as their Messiah; they thought that the eternal life will be found in Scripture.
But the Scripture is pointing to Jesus Christ, because He is in their midst to give eternal life for them. This is what the Scripture means.

I never ignore the Living Christ? I called him Jesus Christ, and not the Living Christ. I know that He is active and alive right now. I don't see studying the scripture should be a least priority , but a necessity.

Thanks

I don't call something that some people can't do "nessesary". It is a worthy occupation imo.

Simplelogic · Jul 30, 2015

Yoshua said:
Hi Simplelogic,

Kindly take a look at the following similarities between Jesus and Paul's statement:

"For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son also gives life to whom He wishes," (John 5:21) - Jesus
"For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all shall be made alive," (1 Cor. 15:22) - Paul

"For this reason I say to you, do not be anxious for your life, as to what you shall eat, or what you shall drink; nor for your body, as to what you shall put on. Is not life more than food, and the body than clothing?" (Matt. 6:25) - Jesus
"Be anxious for nothing, but in everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known to God," (Phil. 4:6) - Paul

"I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep," (John 10:11) - Jesus
"and walk in love, just as Christ also loved you, and gave Himself up for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God as a fragrant aroma," (Eph. 5:2) - Paul

"Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am," (John 8:58). Compare with Exodus 3:14, "And God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM"; and He said, "Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, "I AM has sent me to you." - Jesus
"For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form," (Col. 2:9). See also, Phil. 2:5-8 - Paul

"For if you forgive men for their transgressions, your heavenly Father will also forgive you," (Matt. 6:14) - Jesus
"And be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you," (Eph. 4:32) - Paul

"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life," (John 5:24). See also John 3:16-18; Luke 18:9-13 - Jesus
"Therefore having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ," (Rom. 5:1) - Paul

"Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish, but to fulfill," (Matt. 5:17) - Jesus
"Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law," (Rom. 3:31) - Paul
"What I am saying is this: the Law, which came four hundred and thirty years later, does not invalidate a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to nullify the promise," (Gal. 3:17) - Paul

"You shall not commit murder; You shall not commit adultery; You shall not steal; You shall not bear false witness; 19 Honor your father and mother; and You shall love your neighbor as yourself," (Matt. 19:18-19) - Jesus
"Owe nothing to anyone except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law. 9 For this, "You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not covet," and if there is any other commandment, it is summed up in this saying, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." 10 Love does no wrong to a neighbor; love therefore is the fulfillment of the law," (Rom. 13:8-10) - Paul

"The Son of Man is going to be delivered into the hands of men; 23 and they will kill Him, and He will be raised on the third day," (Matt. 17:22-23) - Jesus
"For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures," (1 Cor. 15:3-4) - Paul

"For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, slanders. 20 "These are the things which defile the man; but to eat with unwashed hands does not defile the man," (Matt. 15:19-20) - Jesus
"There is none who understands, There is none who seeks for God; 12 All have turned aside, together they have become useless; There is none who does good, There is not even one," (Rom. 3:11-12) - Paul

"And why do you yourselves transgress the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition?" (Matt. 15:3) - Jesus
"See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ," (Col. 2:8) - Paul

"Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' 23 "And then I will declare to them, "I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness," (Matt. 7:22-23) - Jesus
"Now that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, "The righteous man shall live by faith," (Gal. 3:11) - Paul

Who am I to discard the Scriptures? Old Testament and New Testament are considered the Holy Scriptures. I do not discard the Old Testament nor not respecting the Scriptures. Jesus used “Do not kill”, adultery, loving the Lord thy God and loving thy neighbor which is sourced from the Mosaic laws (see above scripture comparison).

Yes, repentance. I agree with you. John the Baptist calls for repentance and baptism. Jesus came here to offer Himself as atonement for the sinners instead of atonement in the Old Testament. The law is good since this is the foundation of what God has given to the Israelites, but living with the law in bondage and legalism is bad. God looks at the heart, and not our actions.

Through Christ, the prophecy was fulfilled. It is not the Old Testament law. The fulfillment that Jesus was saying is the expansion of the law by grace that was given to us. He did not come to add another law for the Jews like the Mosaic laws. He used that law to serve the purpose of redeeming us from the bondage of legalism and pointed us to the hope of salvation.

One example is the law “Thou shall not kill.” This is still applicable to us for Jews and Gentiles. The ceremonial laws are not applicable to Gentiles but for the Israel.

Thanks

Ceremonial laws??? There is no such distinction in the Torah.

Simplelogic · Jul 30, 2015

Yoshua said:
Yes indeed, faith has saved the woman. If her faith was actually works, why Jesus acknowledge, forgive and declared salvation to her? Therefore, that would mean the Pharisees should be given salvation than the woman? Pharisees based their salvation by works. If Pharisees and the woman have the same faith, why Jesus should say the following statement at v.44 And turning toward the woman, He said to Simon, "Do you see this woman? I entered your house; you gave Me no water for My feet, but she has wet My feet with her tears, and wiped them with her hair?

Paul says in Philippians 3:5-6 that as a result of his time as a Pharisee that "as touching righteousness, found blameless." Cf. Acts 26:5 where Paul says "I conformed to the strictest sect of our religion, living as a Pharisee."

Of course, Jesus taught contrarily that the Pharisees were lax in teaching and obeying the Law. See Matt.23:23. See also, Matt. 15: 6,9.

This contradiction between Paul and Jesus has probably had the most important impact on doctrine. By perceiving the Pharisees through Paul's eyes, we are led to believe Jesus condemned the Pharisees as legalists -- Paul's view. However, Jesus condemned the Pharisees as ANTI-LEGALISTS. Jesus condemned them as teachers abrogating the Law by their man-made ordinances. (Matt. 15:6). And Jesus condemned them as those who taught the lesser commands of the Law while ignoring the more weightier commands of the Law. (Matt. 23:23.)

The Pharisees were NOT law abiding. This was the very reason Jesus was against many of them.

Simplelogic · Jul 30, 2015

Yoshua said:
Hi Simplelogic,

Kindly take a look at the following similarities between Jesus and Paul's statement:

"For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son also gives life to whom He wishes," (John 5:21) - Jesus
"For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all shall be made alive," (1 Cor. 15:22) - Paul

"For this reason I say to you, do not be anxious for your life, as to what you shall eat, or what you shall drink; nor for your body, as to what you shall put on. Is not life more than food, and the body than clothing?" (Matt. 6:25) - Jesus
"Be anxious for nothing, but in everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known to God," (Phil. 4:6) - Paul

"I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep," (John 10:11) - Jesus
"and walk in love, just as Christ also loved you, and gave Himself up for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God as a fragrant aroma," (Eph. 5:2) - Paul

"Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am," (John 8:58). Compare with Exodus 3:14, "And God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM"; and He said, "Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, "I AM has sent me to you." - Jesus
"For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form," (Col. 2:9). See also, Phil. 2:5-8 - Paul

"For if you forgive men for their transgressions, your heavenly Father will also forgive you," (Matt. 6:14) - Jesus
"And be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you," (Eph. 4:32) - Paul

"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life," (John 5:24). See also John 3:16-18; Luke 18:9-13 - Jesus
"Therefore having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ," (Rom. 5:1) - Paul

"Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish, but to fulfill," (Matt. 5:17) - Jesus
"Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law," (Rom. 3:31) - Paul
"What I am saying is this: the Law, which came four hundred and thirty years later, does not invalidate a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to nullify the promise," (Gal. 3:17) - Paul

"You shall not commit murder; You shall not commit adultery; You shall not steal; You shall not bear false witness; 19 Honor your father and mother; and You shall love your neighbor as yourself," (Matt. 19:18-19) - Jesus
"Owe nothing to anyone except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law. 9 For this, "You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not covet," and if there is any other commandment, it is summed up in this saying, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." 10 Love does no wrong to a neighbor; love therefore is the fulfillment of the law," (Rom. 13:8-10) - Paul

"The Son of Man is going to be delivered into the hands of men; 23 and they will kill Him, and He will be raised on the third day," (Matt. 17:22-23) - Jesus
"For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures," (1 Cor. 15:3-4) - Paul

"For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, slanders. 20 "These are the things which defile the man; but to eat with unwashed hands does not defile the man," (Matt. 15:19-20) - Jesus
"There is none who understands, There is none who seeks for God; 12 All have turned aside, together they have become useless; There is none who does good, There is not even one," (Rom. 3:11-12) - Paul

"And why do you yourselves transgress the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition?" (Matt. 15:3) - Jesus
"See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ," (Col. 2:8) - Paul

"Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' 23 "And then I will declare to them, "I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness," (Matt. 7:22-23) - Jesus
"Now that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, "The righteous man shall live by faith," (Gal. 3:11) - Paul

Who am I to discard the Scriptures? Old Testament and New Testament are considered the Holy Scriptures. I do not discard the Old Testament nor not respecting the Scriptures. Jesus used “Do not kill”, adultery, loving the Lord thy God and loving thy neighbor which is sourced from the Mosaic laws (see above scripture comparison).

Yes, repentance. I agree with you. John the Baptist calls for repentance and baptism. Jesus came here to offer Himself as atonement for the sinners instead of atonement in the Old Testament. The law is good since this is the foundation of what God has given to the Israelites, but living with the law in bondage and legalism is bad. God looks at the heart, and not our actions.

Through Christ, the prophecy was fulfilled. It is not the Old Testament law. The fulfillment that Jesus was saying is the expansion of the law by grace that was given to us. He did not come to add another law for the Jews like the Mosaic laws. He used that law to serve the purpose of redeeming us from the bondage of legalism and pointed us to the hope of salvation.

One example is the law “Thou shall not kill.” This is still applicable to us for Jews and Gentiles. The ceremonial laws are not applicable to Gentiles but for the Israel.

Thanks

This list is so convoluted I don't know where to begin.

Simplelogic · Jul 30, 2015

Yoshua-

Can you explain to me why a servant of Jesus who produces no fruit is useless, and he will be “thrown...into outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” (Matt. 25:14)

Simplelogic · Jul 30, 2015

Yoshua-

8 Then Zacchaeus stood and said to the Lord, “Look, Lord, I give half of my goods to the poor; and if I have taken anything from anyone by false accusation, I restore fourfold.” 9 And Jesus said to him, “Today salvation has come to this house"…Luke 19: 8-9

Jesus tells us point blank that Zacchaeus' repentance (works) is what cause "salvation to come to his house". The Torah commands stolen goods to be returned to the ones who have been wronged. It also commands people to multiply what they have stolen by "4 times". This is called true repentance. Appropriate actions are required in order to be in right standing with God. Always have been…always will be.

Simplelogic · Jul 30, 2015

Yoshua said:
Yes, repentance. I agree with you. John the Baptist calls for repentance and baptism. Jesus came here to offer Himself as atonement for the sinners instead of atonement in the Old Testament. The law is good since this is the foundation of what God has given to the Israelites, but living with the law in bondage and legalism is bad. God looks at the heart, and not our actions.

So….In your opinion, do you have to repent (turn from evil) to be saved? Or do you just need to believe in Jesus?

Also…how can you say "the law is good" but if I live "under" it it is legalism? Do you believe the Law of Moses is a good law? Do you believe that God Himself gave the law of Moses?

Yoshua · Jul 30, 2015

Simplelogic said:
Ceremonial laws??? There is no such distinction in the Torah.

Sorry to quote the term "ceremonial law," I just remember meeting a Jew on the other thread last 2 weeks and discussed about the distinction.
I respect your non-distinction belief there.

Thanks

Yoshua · Jul 30, 2015

Simplelogic said:
This list is so convoluted I don't know where to begin.

Hi Simplelogic,

I tried to post the statements of Jesus and Paul. Please advise me if how may I help to make my comparison understandable for you.
We may try the first comparison on the topmost part.

Thanks

psychoslice · Jul 30, 2015

I personally believe that Jesus had his way of teaching and Paul his, they both point to the same thing. Its when we get too involved in scripture and words that we have problems, and this is a big problem, and why there are so many variations with everyone arguing over who's words are right, the words or scriptures isn't as important as to where the words point to, use the words as a tool, when you finally grasp where the words point to, then drop them, don't cling to them and arguing over them, for you will only be back to the mere words.

Yoshua · Jul 30, 2015

psychoslice said:
I personally believe that Jesus had his way of teaching and Paul his, they both point to the same thing. Its when we get too involved in scripture and words that we have problems, and this is a big problem, and why there are so many variations with everyone arguing over who's words are right, the words or scriptures isn't as important as to where the words point to, use the words as a tool, when you finally grasp where the words point to, then drop them, don't cling to them and arguing over them, for you will only be back to the mere words.

Thanks for the reminder. We are both sharing and discussed our insights and understanding about Jesus and Paul. We are in tune of the thread topic which I started. We based not on our own words, but the Scripture itself.

Yoshua · Jul 31, 2015

Simplelogic said:
Paul says in Philippians 3:5-6 that as a result of his time as a Pharisee that "as touching righteousness, found blameless." Cf. Acts 26:5 where Paul says "I conformed to the strictest sect of our religion, living as a Pharisee."

Phil. 3:5-6
5. which in other ages was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to His holy apostles and prophets:
6. that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ through the gospel,

Paul’s father was a strict Pharisee. Paul himself said that he has been trained in the best tradition of the Pharisees. Here is the verse in Acts 22:3, where we can know Paul better.

Acts 22:2-3
2. And when they heard that he spoke to them in the Hebrew language, they kept all the more silent. Then he said:
3. "I am indeed a Jew, born in Tarsus of Cilicia, but brought up in this city at the feet of Gamaliel, taught according to the strictness of our fathers' law, and was zealous toward God as you all are today.

No wonder that his preaching is very direct and straight forward.

Simplelogic said:
Of course, Jesus taught contrarily that the Pharisees were lax in teaching and obeying the Law. See Matt.23:23. See also, Matt. 15: 6,9.

This contradiction between Paul and Jesus has probably had the most important impact on doctrine. By perceiving the Pharisees through Paul's eyes, we are led to believe Jesus condemned the Pharisees as legalists -- Paul's view. However, Jesus condemned the Pharisees as ANTI-LEGALISTS. Jesus condemned them as teachers abrogating the Law by their man-made ordinances. (Matt. 15:6). And Jesus condemned them as those who taught the lesser commands of the Law while ignoring the more weightier commands of the Law. (Matt. 23:23.)

The Pharisees were NOT law abiding. This was the very reason Jesus was against many of them.

Based on your given verses, we better look at the meaning of Legalism. Legalism is an attempt to gain favor with God or to impress our fellow man by doing certain things (or avoiding other things), without regard to the condition of our hearts before God. Legalism is a sin of pride due to his effort to show to God that he do good works. As I said before, Jesus is looking at the heart and not the action that we did. Both (Jesus and Paul) of them are against legalism.

In Matt. 23:23, the law clearly demanded a tithe. The same law that demanded tithes also demanded justice, mercy and faithfulness. The Pharisees ignored the demands of the law and considered they satisfied the law by tithing their herbs. Therefore, Jesus condemned them as “blind guides” for those who followed their practices in v.24. "Blind guides, who strain out a gnat and swallow a camel!

Pharisees obeyed the law, this is what they are trained for—to follow the law. But the way on how they followed turned them to be a legalistic one. In Luke 11:37-44 is an example:
Luke 11:37-44
37. And as He spoke, a certain Pharisee asked Him to dine with him. So He went in and sat down to eat.
38. And when the Pharisee saw it, he marveled that He had not first washed before dinner.
39. But the Lord said to him, "Now you Pharisees make the outside of the cup and dish clean, but your inward part is full of greed and wickedness.
40. "Foolish ones! Did not He who made the outside make the inside also?
41. "But rather give alms of such things as you have; then indeed all things are clean to you.
42. "But woe to you Pharisees! For you tithe mint and rue and all manner of herbs, and pass by justice and the love of God. These you ought to have done, without leaving the others undone.
43. "Woe to you Pharisees! For you love the best seats in the synagogues and greetings in the marketplaces.
44. "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like graves which are not seen, and the men who walk over them are not aware of them.''

Another good example is this one, the woman who caught in adultery:
John 8:3-8
3. Then the scribes and Pharisees brought to Him a woman caught in adultery. And when they had set her in the midst,
4. they said to Him, "Teacher, this woman was caught in adultery, in the very act.
5. "Now Moses, in the law, commanded us that such should be stoned. But what do You say?''
6. This they said, testing Him, that they might have something of which to accuse Him. But Jesus stooped down and wrote on the ground with His finger, as though He did not hear.
7. So when they continued asking Him, He raised Himself up and said to them, "He who is without sin among you, let him throw a stone at her first.''
8. And again He stooped down and wrote on the ground.

The Pharisees bring a woman who was caught in adultery; they would like Jesus to do the same thing by condemning the woman. Jesus did not look at the external, but at the heart of the Pharisees. Christ is saying here that judgment belongs to God. Pharisees look themselves as clean and holy, for they are blinded by their pride as the teacher of the law and look others as sinful. They saw themselves as good people because they kept the Law. But in reality, they didn’t keep the Law because they did not apply it in their heart.

Thanks

Yoshua · Jul 31, 2015

Simplelogic said:
Yoshua-

Can you explain to me why a servant of Jesus who produces no fruit is useless, and he will be “thrown...into outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” (Matt. 25:14)

Hi Simplelogic,

This is about the Parable of the Talents. A servant of Jesus who did not make use of the opportunity was separated from those who are a faithful servant. He is not a true believer, and a false one. He buried the blessings/grace that God gave to him. This why he is called it as a lazy slave in v.26 `You wicked, lazy slave, you knew that I reap where I did not sow, and gather where I scattered no seed.' The opportunity would mean the hope of redeeming truth that God has offered to us.

Thanks

Yoshua · Jul 31, 2015

Simplelogic said:
Yoshua-

8 Then Zacchaeus stood and said to the Lord, “Look, Lord, I give half of my goods to the poor; and if I have taken anything from anyone by false accusation, I restore fourfold.” 9 And Jesus said to him, “Today salvation has come to this house"…Luke 19: 8-9

Jesus tells us point blank that Zacchaeus' repentance (works) is what cause "salvation to come to his house". The Torah commands stolen goods to be returned to the ones who have been wronged. It also commands people to multiply what they have stolen by "4 times". This is called true repentance. Appropriate actions are required in order to be in right standing with God. Always have been…always will be.

Hi Simplelogic,

As I said before, works can only be seen through external means and I cannot blame you why works is very visible—same as Pharisees who displayed their holiness by works. Jesus can see the heart of the people he met. He is the Son of God. You are right that repentance brings Zaccheus salvation because of demonstration of righteousness for repayment. It is not works that saved Zaccheus, for no man can saved by works; but his works did demonstrate that he had placed faith in Christ, and had received righteousness by faith.

If we will base our salvation by works, then the rich would win because they have so much money to do good works.

Thanks

Yoshua · Jul 31, 2015

Simplelogic said:
So….In your opinion, do you have to repent (turn from evil) to be saved? Or do you just need to believe in Jesus?

Believe in Jesus is the start of faith, when you believe you will have trust, and I believed when you trust Him you depend on Him. When you depend on Him, you surrendered your life to Him. After surrendering, you obey and repent. Therefore, receiving Him and acceptance comes inside the picture. There is no such thing that you believe, trust and obey but not accepting nor receiving Him. Logical. Isn’t it?

I believed there are a lot of people believe only in Jesus. Just believing, and it stops there. I don’t think this is what Jesus is telling us. He is seeking an intimate relationship by trusting and faith in Him.

Thanks

Simplelogic · Jul 31, 2015

Yoshua said:
Hi Simplelogic,

As I said before, works can only be seen through external means and I cannot blame you why works is very visible—same as Pharisees who displayed their holiness by works. Jesus can see the heart of the people he met. He is the Son of God. You are right that repentance brings Zaccheus salvation because of demonstration of righteousness for repayment. It is not works that saved Zaccheus, for no man can saved by works; but his works did demonstrate that he had placed faith in Christ, and had received righteousness by faith.

If we will base our salvation by works, then the rich would win because they have so much money to do good works.

Thanks

Faith is not even mentioned in this text

Nor would the rich win if it were based off of works. See Ezekiel 18

Simplelogic · Jul 31, 2015

Yoshua said:
Believe in Jesus is the start of faith, when you believe you will have trust, and I believed when you trust Him you depend on Him. When you depend on Him, you surrendered your life to Him. After surrendering, you obey and repent. Therefore, receiving Him and acceptance comes inside the picture. There is no such thing that you believe, trust and obey but not accepting nor receiving Him. Logical. Isn’t it?

I believed there are a lot of people believe only in Jesus. Just believing, and it stops there. I don’t think this is what Jesus is telling us. He is seeking an intimate relationship by trusting and faith in Him.

Thanks

So what does someone need to simply be saved? To believe only? Or must I repent as well?

Simplelogic · Jul 31, 2015

Yoshua said:
Hi Simplelogic,

This is about the Parable of the Talents. A servant of Jesus who did not make use of the opportunity was separated from those who are a faithful servant. He is not a true believer, and a false one. He buried the blessings/grace that God gave to him. This why he is called it as a lazy slave in v.26 `You wicked, lazy slave, you knew that I reap where I did not sow, and gather where I scattered no seed.' The opportunity would mean the hope of redeeming truth that God has offered to us.

Thanks

This parable has nothing to do with people "believing" anything. You are reading that into the text because of Paul. This who parable is about works and how God will judge us based on what we do with what was given to us. Even a child can grasp this.

Jesus and Paul's teachings, Is there a difference?

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Veteran Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Veteran Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member