Jesus and Paul's teachings, Is there a difference?

savagewind said:

The difference is doing the right thing because it is a command to remember and obey and doing the right things because it is the good and wise thing to do. A law for ancient people is one thing and you are saying it is right forever.

Now we know about microbes and know that we are covered by them. Some of them are dead. Correct? The dead microbes that cause disease shall make a person unclean forever without any hope of becoming clean, according to the law.

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Simplelogic said:

I believe all of God's commandments will endure until heaven and earth pass away. Same thing that Jesus taught.

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savagewind said:

Now we know about microbes and know that we are covered by them. Some of them are dead. Correct? The dead microbes that cause disease shall make a person unclean forever without any hope of becoming clean, according to the law.

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Simplelogic said:

Nope. The command is not to touch the dead animal and if you do…you must wash yourself before sundown.

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savagewind said:

Word is not law. Word is promise. OK?

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savagewind said:

OK. So it is righteous for a dead animal to touch me. It doesn't seem fair.

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Simplelogic said:

17“Do not think that I came to abolish the Law (Torah) or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill.18“For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished. 19“Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. Matt 5: 17-19

God's Torah is everlasting. I hope I don't need to provide verses for this.

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Simplelogic said:

What are you talking about?

Tell me. Do you believe that God Himself gave the law of Moses?

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savagewind said:

Good question! I do not know.

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savagewind said:

The Torah is a physical thing. Is it not? Do you believe it will last forever? I think most people are sure the physical man won't last forever. Even the Earth won't last forever. Right?

For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

Do you see the word ἕως (until) there? I can see it. What does that mean to you?

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Simplelogic said:

Thats fine if you don't know. I was just curious. Nor can I convince you whether it was or wasn't. But if you don't believe God gave this law then there is no point in the discussion. Its not my job to convince others to follow my God's laws. I was under the assumption you believed in the Bible.

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Simplelogic said:

I have a question for all the pro Paul people.

What would be different about your faith if Paul's letters were never added to the canon? Would it look different in any way?

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Simplelogic said:

I'm glad you brought this up. The concept that faith and works are mutually exclusive concepts is the root of the problem itself and can ONLY be found in Paul's letters. I would challenge you to find me any text (besides Paul's) which teaches this type of logic. This statement in Ephesians 2: 8-10 is tied to Paul's very unique views on "the law" itself. To find out what Paul truly meant by this logic we have to go to Romans. This is where we get to hear Paul expand on his inner logic behind his theological views. Here is my close friend Scott Nelson's take on this matter, which I am in complete agreement with:

""Moreover the Law entered that (for this purpose) the offense (sin) might abound. But where sin abounded, grace abounded much more, so that as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." Romans 5:20

Again he draws the mutually exclusive picture of Law versus grace in the following.

"For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under Law but under grace." Romans 6:14

Later on in Romans, Paul uses an analogy from the time of Elijah to make his grace-versus-works point.

But what does the divine response say to him (Elijah)? "I have reserved for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal." Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant (of Israel) according to the election of grace. And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work. Romans 11:4-6

Paul's logic is so stood on its head, and his proof demonstrated with smoke and mirrors here that it's almost humorous. It would be if so many didn't actually believe this is the infallible word of God! The only thing that Paul derives from what God said to Elijah is that He had reserved a "remnant" for Himself. Nothing more! Never mind the fact that these seven thousand men had themselves remained true to God's Law and not bowed their knee to Baal! Sounds like works to me! But then, to keep the illusion going, Paul states that this new remnant of saved Israel is "according to the election of grace". This he bases on the assumption that he firmly established the concept of predestination and the election by grace earlier in the infamous passages of Romans 9. This detestable doctrine is itself based on numerous misquotes of Scripture as I have shown. But now Paul continues to build lie on top of lie with the flow of logic that if salvation is by grace, then it is no longer by works; otherwise grace is no longer grace! What utter nonsense! Where is it written that grace and Law (works) are mutually exclusive concepts... other than in Paul's writings? Paul had previously tried to establish this principle that the two concepts cannot go together with this slight-of-hand.

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Simplelogic said:

"Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt." Romans 4:4

This slight-of-hand is accomplished by renaming elements in the equation much the way an abortionist would never call an unborn child "a baby". If Paul can get away with calling obedience to God "work", then he can get away with calling the benefits of that work "wages", and if we continue to follow him down this road we find out that wages are really a "debt"! Oh no! Who would want to be accused of being so presumptuous as to bill God for grace?!! Phew! Let's back up and start over. What Paul calls "work" is really obedience to God. God is the One with the bill! He made us and demands the payment of obedience. His grace and mercy are benefits (not wages) of doing business with Him. No one, no matter how obedient, can presumptuously demand payment of anything from God. To do so would involve disobedience to the Law concerning walking humbly with God! Anyone who is obedient and walks humbly with God can have all the faith in the world that God will provide the benefits He promised. This is where true faith exists! Now doesn't this sound so much more simple and right?Even a child can grasp this picture. But one has to spend many years in seminary before they can even pretend to comprehend Paul's convoluted mess."

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Simplelogic said:

Now let's look at Scripture and take notice of whom God deems most worthy of His benefits of grace, and mercy. Let's start with Noah.

So the Lord said, "I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I regret that I have made them." But Noah found GRACE in the eyes of the Lord. This is the genealogy of Noah. Noah was a just man, perfect in his generations. Noah walked with God. Genesis 6:7-9

Then the Lord said to Noah, "Come into the ark, you and all your household, BECAUSE I have seen that you are righteous before Me in this generation. Genesis 7:1

No one else on earth found grace or mercy from God except one man and his family because he was "just" and "righteous"! Contrary to Paul's doctrine, becoming a beneficiary of God's grace has everything to do with works. Grace and works are not mutually exclusive. They are inextricably connected to one another. There is more.

For the Lord God is a sun and shield; the Lord will give grace and glory; no good thing will He withhold from those who walk uprightly. Psalm 84:11

For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, but showing mercy to thousands,to those who love Me and keep My commandments. Exodus 20: 5,6

But the mercy of the Lord is from everlasting to everlasting on those who fear Him, and His righteousness to children's children, to such as keep His covenant, and to those who remember His commandments to do them. Psalm 103 17-18

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savagewind said:

John 5:39
John 14:6
John 8:32
2 Corinthians 3:17
Galatians 5:13

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Yoshua said:

Hi Savagewind,

Thanks for your posted verses. I just want to tell you that I'm not like the hypocrites (Pharisees) as you used John 5:39 to display studying and learning Scriptures as my entry to salvation. I'm very aware of what is faith and good works. I'm used to study the Scriptures as my ministry by sharing my gift and that is being used by God for enlightenment of His word to others.

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Yoshua said:

Hi Simplelogic,

Luke 7:49-50
49. Then the men at the table said to themselves, ``Who does this man think he is, going around forgiving sins?''
50. And Jesus said to the woman, ``Your faith has saved you; go in peace.''

No, it would be the same thing like what Jesus said "Your faith has saved you."

Thanks

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Yoshua said:

Hi Simplelogic,

Nonsense? I don’t see any nonsense and illogical here; it should be understand that the two cannot be together (Grace and Works). Can you show me a practical life example on how you currently applied the Grace and Works together?

If you believed that salvation can be earned by good works , then that’s contradicts what Paul’s is saying?

Rom. 11:5-6
5. It is the same today. Not all the Jews have turned away from God; there are a few being saved as a result of God's kindness in choosing them.
6. And if it is by God's kindness, then it is not by their being good enough. For in that case the free gift would no longer be free--it isn't free when it is earned.(LVB)


"Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt." Romans 4:4

Rom. 4:4
4. But didn't he earn his right to heaven by all the good things he did? No, for being saved is a gift; if a person could earn it by being good, then it wouldn't be free--but it is! It is given to those who do not work for it. For God declares sinners to be good in his sight if they have faith in Christ to save them from God's wrath.(LVB)

I think this Living Bible version may make it much more clearer to understand Romans 4:4.

Rom. 4:4-5
4. Now to one who works, his wages are not reckoned as a gift but as his due.
5. And to one who does not work but trusts him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness. (RSV)

Rom. 3:25
25. For God sent Christ Jesus to take the punishment for our sins and to end all God's anger against us. He used Christ's blood and our faith as the means of saving us from his wrath. In this way he was being entirely fair, even though he did not punish those who sinned in former times. For he was looking forward to the time when Christ would come and take away those sins.(LVB)

What’s the use of Rom. 3:25 and Jesus sacrificial death on the cross if works is the basis of our salvation? If a man good works can earned it for salvation, then what’s the use of God’s grace (kindness, unmerited favor of God)? There should be no grace since man can work it out for their salvation.


Rom. 5:15-19
15. And what a difference between man's sin and God's forgiveness!For this one man, Adam, brought death to many through his sin. But this one man, Jesus Christ, brought forgiveness to many through God's mercy.
16. Adam's one sin brought the penalty of death to many, while Christ freely takes away many sins and gives glorious life instead.
17. The sin of this one man, Adam, caused death to be king over all, but all who will take God's gift of forgiveness and acquittal are kings of life because of this one man, Jesus Christ.
18. Yes, Adam's sin brought punishment to all, but Christ's righteousness makes men right with God, so that they can live.
19. Adam caused many to be sinners because he disobeyed God, and Christ caused many to be made acceptable to God because he obeyed. (LVB)

Is it clear with you that you (including me) are considered a sinner? If for you, it is not. Kindly explain it to me how?

When the Bible stated that Noah is just and righteous, do Noah is exempted from being a part of the sin of one man—Adam? or Noah is exempted as a sinner like Jesus who is sinless?

Thanks

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savagewind said:

I believe understanding the Bible is understanding truth and righteousness. I suppose God is truth and righteousness. Am I right?

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savagewind said:

I do not think that is what the scripture means. I think it means to listen to your own reasons instead of "hearing what the spirit says to the congregations".
Where two or more are gathered in my name I am there, says Jesus. It seems you are putting all importance on the written word thus no importance on the presence of Jesus Christ. Are you ignoring the living Christ?

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