Jesus and Paul's teachings, Is there a difference?

Thanda · Jul 24, 2015

wizanda said:
The gospel of John is made up.

Ah so you have now decided which parts of the Bible are true. That is fine with me. All the other Gospels you quoted are considered dubious by many other people. So it is unhelpful for our discussion to start talking about which parts of the Bible are made up and which aren't. I think for our discussion it will help us to admit what is in the bible and what is our personal beliefs.

wizanda said:
That could mean God wanted the colt.

It could. Except Jesus called himself Lord and admitted that at the last day people would also call him Lord. At Judgement day the truth will be revealed. Why would people be calling Jesus Lord when the truth has already been revealed if he isn't actually the Lord?

wizanda said:
The person called him a teacher.

You see. Mark 10:18

17 ¶And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?

18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good?there is none good but one, that is, God.

Jesus did not object to being called a teacher. He objected to being called good. If he could object to being called good why didn't he object to being called Lord?

wizanda said:
Nope God is the ruler.... If you say, "i want it to rain or be sunny today", do you get it? If you say, "i want salvation", does God give it? So nope, we're servants to God, same as Yeshua was a servant of God's.

Yes I will. Matthew 7:

7 ¶Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find;knock, and it shall be opened unto you:

8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

9 Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone?

10 Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent?

11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?

wizanda · Jul 24, 2015

Thanda said:
Ah so you have now decided which parts of the Bible are true.

The evidence speaks for its self.

Thanda said:
Why would people be calling Jesus Lord when the truth has already been revealed if he isn't actually the Lord?

What does Yeshua say, he will say, to the people calling him, "lord, lord", as i just posted to you?
'Depart from me you workers of inequity, i never knew you', or he could phrase it, 'You didn't listen to us, you've followed the deception thinking it was from us'.

Thanda said:
If he could object to being called good why didn't he object to being called Lord?

Because he is and was a lord... All i said was he taught to only call God lord.... We're judged by following his teachings, not what others thought about him.

Thanda said:
Yes I will. Matthew 7:

Wow, so that suddenly makes God your servant... God chooses what we need, it is not what we want; it is all up to God, which means God is our ruler....Not the other way around.

metis · Jul 24, 2015

Thanda said:
I have no problem agreeing with you that not everything that is written in the scriptures is accurate. But it is wrong for a person like wizanda to pretend this was not actually written in the scriptures. If he believes different to what the scriptures say because he has received a different revelation he should just say so.

For my part I believe Jesus is the Jehovah of the OLD testament and that he is God's son. I believe He has given to him divine authority from the Father by which he is able to act in every way as God himself.

And example of what I am saying is the angel who told Abraham to stop sacrificing Isaac:

12 And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.

Note how if you read only this verse you would be tempted to think it was God himself speaking. The angel had authority from God to speak as he would speak.

Likewise Jehovah who is Jesus Christ has all authority from God to speak and do as though he were God himself. And indeed he himself is a God: being a perfect being and in perfect likeness to the Father in thought word and action.

To me, the "thou" and "thine" is a reference to Abraham's son Isaac. I see no indication whatsoever that it would pertain to anyone else, especially someone who would live almost 2000 years later.

I agree with your first point however, namely that the scriptures are what they are and should not be viewed in terms of what we'd like them to be.

metis · Jul 24, 2015

Simplelogic said:
There is no evidence that any of the twelve apostles thought Jesus was God. Only Paul makes this correlation.

I'm not sure Paul actually makes that correlation. Interpretation is a bugger, ain't it?

Thanda · Jul 24, 2015

wizanda said:
The evidence speaks for it self.

All I'm saying is others have also cast doubt on the validity of the other gospels. So it does not help to take that angle.

wizanda said:
What does he say he will say to the people calling him, "lord, lord", as i just posted to you?
'Depart from me you workers of inequity, i never knew you', or he could phrase it, 'You didn't listen to us, you've followed the deception thinking it was from us'.

Jesus said "Not everyone that says unto me "Lord, Lord" shall enter into the kingdom of Heaven" Notice that he said not everyone. He did not say no one that says unto me "Lord Lord" shall enter into the kingdom of heaven. And he gives the reason why some of those who say Lord Lord will not enter in. He said it is because they are not doing the will or his father. He is not condemning them for calling him Lord. He is condemning them for failing to keep the commandments.

wizanda said:
Because he is and was a lord... All i said was he taught to only call God lord.... We're judged by following his teachings, not what others thought about him.

If that was his teaching he would have objected to being called Lord and would not have referred to himself as Lord.

wizanda said:
Wow, so that suddenly makes God your servant... God chooses what we need, it is not what we want; it is all up to God, which means God is our ruler....Not the other way around.

Yes He is our servant. And that is why he is our ruler. Remember that the greatest person in the Kingdom of heaven is the one who is the most humble. Matt 18:1-5

Thanda · Jul 24, 2015

metis said:
To me, the "thou" and "thine" is a reference to Abraham's son Isaac. I see no indication whatsoever that it would pertain to anyone else, especially someone who would live almost 2000 years later.

Oh no. I was not using that verse to prove that Jesus is God's son. I was using to prove that someone who has authority from God can speak as if they are God himself. The angel said to Abraham that he had not withheld Isaac from him but he actually was saying that he had not withheld his son from God.

metis · Jul 24, 2015

Thanda said:
Oh no. I was not using that verse to prove that Jesus is God's son. I was using to prove that someone who has authority from God can speak as if they are God himself. The angel said to Abraham that he had not withheld Isaac from him but he actually was saying that he had not withheld his son from God.

OK, I now see what you're saying, so thanks for the clarification.

wizanda · Jul 24, 2015

Thanda said:
Jesus said "Not everyone that says unto me "Lord, Lord" shall enter into the kingdom of Heaven" Notice that he said not everyone. He did not say no one that says unto me "Lord Lord" shall enter into the kingdom of heaven. And he gives the reason why some of those who say Lord Lord will not enter in. He said it is because they are not doing the will or his father. He is not condemning them for calling him Lord. He is condemning them for failing to keep the commandments.
If that was his teaching he would have objected to being called Lord and would not have referred to himself as Lord.

Thank you, you do make a good point, and i suppose as a king (messiah), it is completely acceptable to call him 'lord of Israel'...It's when people start capitalizing it, like it means he is God.

Thanda said:
Remember that the greatest person in the Kingdom of heaven is the one who is the most humble. Matt 18:1-5

God isn't a person. Think you're mixing up God giving to us, and God serving us.

Thanda · Jul 24, 2015

wizanda said:
God isn't a person. Think you're mixing up God giving to us, and God serving us.

I think you're mixing up service with subservience.

Simplelogic · Jul 24, 2015

It seems like people are getting hung up on the "believe in me" statements in the gospels. Many see these statements of proof that Jesus and Paul's agreed on faith alone salvation. The word being translated "believe" should more accurately be translated obey/follows. The greek word being translated "believes" is the Greek word pisteuo. Here is how the most prominent Greek lexicon defines the word.

"The NIV Theological Dictionary of New Testament Words (Zondervan: 2000) has this likewise to say of pisteuo:

Similarly, pisteuo means to trust something or someone; it can refer to and confirm legendary tales and mythical ideas. With reference to people, pisteuo means to obey (Soph. OT 625) [i.e., Sophocles, Oedipus Tyrannus, 625]; the pass[ive] Means to enjoy trust...

[2014 INSERT in yellow highlight: See quote from this portion under NIDNTT on Precept Austin.org. The reference "pisteuo means obey" has a google hit to the 2011 edition of Clavis Novi Testamenti, a famous Greek to Latin Lexicon of the 1800s by the famous Joseph Thayer & others, but there is no preview page. See our google search of those exact words pulling up this 2011 edition. In Sophocles, Oedipus Tyrannus 625 where this classic Greek usage is referenced, Creon in the online Perseus translation asks "are you willing to yield or believe?" (where 'yield' is pisteuo meaning obey = yield). Oedipus responds: "no, for you persuade me you are unworthy of trust."Storr agrees on the yield (obey) translation as the correct choice over "believe." Other translations render Creon's pisteuo synonymously as "listen to me," again pointing to an obedience-meaning. See Johnston.]

[Similarly, the related adjective term "pistos" -- which some prefer to render as "faithful" to suit one's auditory senses - is clearly used by Jesus in Matthew 25:21 to mean "obedient." It can have a synonymous meaning of "trustworthy." However, 'faithful' is apparently chosen in translations solely to placate faith-alone doctrine because then some suggest "faithful" means "full of faith" when it simply means "trustworthy" -- a synonymn for "obedient." Rarely does it mean someone is "full of faith." This is explained in Murray J. Harris' Slave of Christ: A New Testament Metaphor for Total Devotion to Christ (Intervarsity Press, 2001) at page 96 including footnote 16 -- "aperfectly obedient slave was a completely faithful slave", and Bultman says "in classical Greek pistos had the nuance of obedient and pisteuin [i.e., the verb translated often as 'believe] had the nuance 'to obey.'" Cf. Daniel J. Harrington, Ed. The Gospel of Matthew at 343 ("The idea of pistos is more 'reliable, trustworthy' than 'believing.' See also Matthew 23:23, where Jesus says the Pharisees taught tithing but omitted justice, mercy and the noun pistin. Previously, this used to be rendered as "faith," but now, with scholarship, it is rendered as "faithfulness" (meaning sincere obedience).]

This is likewise mentioned in the highly authoritative Theological Dictionary of the New Testament (TDNT) 6 (1968): 4-7, in an entry by Bultmann (1884-1976) — the eminent Lutheran scholar — in which he says the verb “pisteuo means” (among other things) “‘to trust’” and “also ‘to obey.’” (It is both enlightening and disturbing to watch how ‘cheap grace adherents cope with this dictionary entry despite the TDNT being one of the most authoritative and scholarly dictionary references within Protestantism.)" Chapter 26-1.JWOS

Simplelogic · Jul 24, 2015

Jesus NEVER taught an exclusive salvation doctrine for "believing" in him. Every man has to repent and do good works to be restored to God. This was the basis for ALL of Jesus teachings and parables.

savagewind · Jul 24, 2015

Simplelogic said:
Jesus NEVER taught an exclusive salvation doctrine for "believing" in him. Every man has to repent and do good works to be restored to God. This was the basis for ALL of Jesus teachings and parables.

Trust with obedience means to keep following no matter where he goes. It means to listen to his voice trusting that where he leads is where you should go. Saying "it means more than believing in him, it means doing good works" is not accurate either imo. Believing in him means being led to do the works he would do, not just any good works. How is that accomplished? By listening to him. Revelation 3:22. Belief is about knowing him and isn't about a person's opinion.
Proverbs 3:5 Proverbs 3:6

LASTINGLIGHT · Jul 24, 2015

"As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD also."
James the Just

Simplelogic · Jul 24, 2015

savagewind said:
Trust with obedience means to keep following no matter where he goes. It means to listen to his voice trusting that where he leads is where you should go. Saying "it means more than believing in him, it means doing good works" is not accurate either imo. Believing in him means being led to do the works he would do, not just any good works. How is that accomplished? By listening to him. Revelation 3:22. Belief is about knowing him and isn't about a person's opinion.
Proverbs 3:5 Proverbs 3:6

Jesus taught us to follow the Law of Moses. If you listen to Jesus then you will follow these laws. This it what it means to obey him.

LASTINGLIGHT · Jul 24, 2015

Simplelogic said:
Jesus NEVER taught an exclusive salvation doctrine for "believing" in him. Every man has to repent and do good works to be restored to God. This was the basis for ALL of Jesus teachings and parables.

Everyone on this topic who does their research knows your statement to be true. But they have been told that Paul was the great Apostle of Jesus who spread the teachings of Jesus to the gentiles. Christians, who bother to read the words of Jesus know this too. But to admit it to themselves, means that their whole conception of their own beliefs is based upon assumptions that are not true. In most cases, these people grew up believing these assumtions, which are ingrained into their childhood and adult life, as I was. It was hard to let go of these false assumtions, but the relief of knowing and living the truth of the teachings of Jesus was worth shedding the lies of the self proclaimed "Apostle Of Christ".

wizanda · Jul 25, 2015

Simplelogic said:
Jesus NEVER taught an exclusive salvation doctrine for "believing" in him. Every man has to repent and do good works to be restored to God. This was the basis for ALL of Jesus teachings and parables.

This is my point against the made up gospel of John, it contradicts Yeshua's main message in the synoptic gospels; there are 11 times where it says we've got to 'believe in jesus'....So until we remove the inconsistencies, we'll never get a clear picture.

JoStories · Jul 25, 2015

Thanda said:
I am also sorry about people who can't think for themselves. But I'm not sure what that has to do with this verse. Jesus was talking about himself here as this is how he often referred to himself throughout the gospels.

I will give you another one and we'll see whether you will also try to explain this away:

And if any man say ought unto you, ye shall say, The Lord hath need of them; and straightway he will send them. (Matt 21:3)

I'm not sure why you want me to interpret this but for me, and one must, of necessity, also have been able to read the verses before and after this one particular one, but it states that Jesus has need of something that they have and they should forfeit that one thing and give it to Jesus. These verses are simply instructions to the disciples from Jesus and things that they were supposed to do. I also see this verse, or rather verses as telling a person that whatever you have, you should give it all to God. In this particular case, however, it was about a donkey and the need for him to travel. Now, can you give your own interpretations of verses without the need to parrot?

JoStories · Jul 25, 2015

Thanda said:
I have no problem agreeing with you that not everything that is written in the scriptures is accurate. But it is wrong for a person like wizanda to pretend this was not actually written in the scriptures. If he believes different to what the scriptures say because he has received a different revelation he should just say so.

For my part I believe Jesus is the Jehovah of the OLD testament and that he is God's son. I believe He has given to him divine authority from the Father by which he is able to act in every way as God himself.

And example of what I am saying is the angel who told Abraham to stop sacrificing Isaac:

12 And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.

Note how if you read only this verse you would be tempted to think it was God himself speaking. The angel had authority from God to speak as he would speak.

Likewise Jehovah who is Jesus Christ has all authority from God to speak and do as though he were God himself. And indeed he himself is a God: being a perfect being and in perfect likeness to the Father in thought word and action.

You contradict yourself with the sentence I underlined. Either Jesus was God or he was NOT God and as you state here, he was ALSO a god, which, IMO, is idolatry. I believe he was a prophet of God, much like Gandhi, or The Buddha, or many others.

JoStories · Jul 25, 2015

Thanda said:
I think you're mixing up service with subservience.

And yet, every person who claims to be Christian has said to me that they must be subservient to God and bent to the service of God, so what exactly is your point here? You say you must admit that Jesus is God, is that not subservience? You are admitting that Jesus is your master, similar to God. And in many cases, you say Jesus is the son of God, so a part of the godhead. This is the very nature of subservience. You might ask a Black American over the age of 80 what subservience is. I can assure you, they know.

Simplelogic · Jul 25, 2015

wizanda said:
This is my point against the made up gospel of John, it contradicts Yeshua's main message in the synoptic gospels; there are 11 times where it says we've got to 'believe in jesus'....So until we remove the inconsistencies, we'll never get a clear picture.

John doesn't teach that concept. See post 50.

John's other corresponding verses on obedience:

Jesus in John 8:51 says “whoever keeps on obeying (tereo) My Teaching should never ever die.”

1 In John 15:1-10, Jesus says a “branch in me” that does not “bear fruit” is “taken away,” “cut off from the vine,” thrown “outside and burned.”

John likewise quoted Jesus saying in total accord:

Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good [things], unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil [things], unto the resurrection of damnation. (John 5:28-29 KJV)

He that loveth his life loseth it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal. (26) If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will the Father honor. (John 12:25-26 ASV.)

Jesus and Paul's teachings, Is there a difference?

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