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What is Contemplative Christianity?

Yoshua

Well-Known Member
Not really. Contemplative practice has been part of the very early church from long before the modern age and exposures to Eastern practices. It has a long history of tradition. From here:


Contemplative prayer is by no means a modern addition to Christianity. Contemplative Christian prayer has representatives in every age. A form of contemplative prayer was first practiced and taught by the Desert Fathers of Egypt, Palestine and Syria including Evagrius, St. Augustine and St. Gregory the Great in the West, and Pseudo-Dionysius and the Hesychasts in the East.


In the Middle Ages, St. Bernard of Clarivaux, William of St. Thierry and Guigo the Carthusian represent the Christian contemplative tradition, as well as the Rhineland mystics, including St. Hildegard, St. Mechtilde, Meister Eckhart, Ruysbroek and Tauler. Later, the author of The Imitation of Christ and the English mystics of the 14th century such as the author of The Cloud of Unknowing, Walter Hilton, Richard Rolle, and Julian of Norwich became part of the Christian contemplative heritage.


After the Reformation, the Carmelites of St. Teresa of Avila, St. John of the Cross and St. Therese of Lisieux; the French school of spiritual writers, including St. Francis de Sales, St. Jane de Chantal and Cardinal Berulle; the Jesuits, including fathers De Caussade, Lallemont and Surin; the Benedictines, like Dom Augustine Baker and Dom John Chapman, and modern Cistercians such as Dom Vital Lehodey and Thomas Merton, all cultivated practices in their lives that they believed led to the spiritual gift of contemplation.



That we find such practices also exist in the East speaks to the nature of the human being itself in relation to the divine. I for one do not begin with the idea that if someone else has discovered the same practices in other parts of the world and other religions, that that means your practice is "of the devil" or some such fear reaction. If that was so, you should get rid of you own sacred scriptures because other religions have them too! :) This of course makes no sense. That you find similar practices and approaches in religions the world over speaks to the heart of the human being in relation to finding Ultimate Peace, in whatever ways we all have available to us.



In any religious path, and particularly in Christianity, a practice of contemplation is the greatest patch to finding that along its own traditional trajectory. As Archbishop Rowan Williams said in that article linked to in an earlier post,



Contemplating God in Jesus, he declared, teaches Christians “how to look at one another and at the whole of God’s creation.”



Archbishop Williams described contemplation as “the key” to prayer, liturgy, art, ethics, and “the essence of a renewed humanity” that is free from “self-oriented, acquisitive habits” and their distortions.



“To put it boldly, contemplation is the only ultimate answer to the unreal and insane world that our financial systems and our advertising culture and our chaotic and unexamined emotions encourage us to inhabit,” the Anglican archbishop said.



This then comes into my response about how one reads and understands scriptures is influenced by either how clear or how clouded our active minds are. As you see above he points how it teaches one, "how to look at one another and at the whole of God's creation.". People look at one another all the time. But what are they seeing, and does that change when our own hearts and minds are changed, when they become open and clear to Spirit? Of course, yes! So when you "study scripture", with whose set of eyes are you seeing it? If you practice contemplation, it will enormously affect how you see, what you hear, and how you respond. If you're only looking out of your 'clouded' mind, trying to see what you can, you are seeing, "through a glass darkly", and do not truly see what is before you.

The people behind here are connected with Catholicism, the monks. So, what you will see using contemplative that evangelical Christianity does not have?


As I just pointed out above, what we are able or unable to see in what we look at right before us is determined by the set of eyes that are looking. People whose minds are darkened can study scripture all day long and what they will see amounts to nothing but a reflection of their own minds. And that is a fact. It is true of anyone. It is not just a matter of reading with your eyes, or developing good study skills. No amount of head knowledge will ever allow to be seen what is a matter of the eyes of the heart to see. If you do not develop the heart, you will never see anything but what the unillumined mind can present. It takes both to be developed. Without contemplation, you are relying on the head, and what it sees will only always reflect how it see, reflecting the one seeing, in all their biases, fears, anxieties, etc.


Don't forget Jesus told the religious of his day to study scripture because it spoke of him. They studied, but still could not see. So what he meant was basically to have an opened mind through the illumination of Spirit, through the heart, in order to see what is right before them that they are unable to see currently in all their religiousness. The first commandment is to love God, not to go read the Bible. Love is an action of the heart. Contemplation is the key to this, without which, you see only what your own biases from the mind allow to be seen. Same story throughout all ages.

So who are those who studied but still could not see?

The Bible is an inspired book. Inside it are the teachings of Jesus Christ, narratives, poetry, life quotations, revelation, songs, historical accounts and others. This book is our guide to righteousness.

Therefore, contemplative is saying to “do not read the Bible,” and try experiencing another dimension of spirituality.

It depends on how it's practiced, doesn't it? I've seen more than a lion's share of Christian churches that are in fact exactly like the Pharisees as portrayed in the Gospel of Matthew. It's not hard to imagine Jesus stand before these religious who identify by his name and saying precisely the same things to them he did to the Pharisees of his day. They created a stumbling block for people to come to God in their self-righteousness, substituting correct beliefs and doctrines over hearing, seeing, knowing, and loving with the eyes of the heart. "By their fruits you shall know them", not by their religiousness.


That freedom produces righteousness from within. It is not expressed by conformity to the rules set forth by others to follow. It is instead a living law, being written moment to moment upon the heart that knows God, with the heart, with Spirit. The mind without that, is an empty shell.

But we followed the rules set in the Scriptures—the standard of God.

Who was scripture written by, but those with a heart that knew God? It's not a book chiseled in stone, but being written on the tablets of each and every heart that knows God, moment to moment. It is not an external code you conform to, but an internal Life you live and create.

The Scripture should not be discarded.
2 Tim. 3:16-17
16. All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness;
17. that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.

Thanks
 

Politesse

Amor Vincit Omnia
Therefore, contemplative is saying to “do not read the Bible,” and try experiencing another dimension of spirituality.

Those who love the Bible, surely, have noticed that it commands contemplation of God. I see you are familiar with the letters of Paul. I might recommend some contemplation of the third chapter of his second letter to the Corinthians, in which he reminds them that as important as the words of Moses are, Jesus' ministry is one of speaking to God face to face, not chaining oneself to "tablets of stone".As he concludes : "And we all, who with unveiled faces contemplate the Lord’s glory, are being transformed into his image with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit." He is both condemning the worship of books and advocating the direct contemplation of the glory of Lord.
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
The people behind here are connected with Catholicism, the monks. So, what you will see using contemplative that evangelical Christianity does not have?
Thanks for starting this thread. Contemplative practice has found its way into Protestant circles as well in recent years. That it was practiced within Catholicism, well let's not forget there was no Protestant churches until the 16th century, so ALL Christian practices, the Bible translations, teachings, etc, all existed there too. So that is not a detractor, anymore than any Christian practice is since they all were part of Catholicism. Besides, outside that, if you wish to look at the Pentecostal/Charismatic churches, they have their own forms of deeper inner practices, the experiential, the altered states experience, etc.

So who are those who studied but still could not see?
Oh my goodness. Many. Really, and this is not meant as a put down, but anyone who relies solely on what their reasoning minds can tell them do not see what Spirit reveals. Think of it like this. The mind that tries to see into the things of God, quite literally sees through a glass darkly, as Paul put it. But Spirit illuminates from beyond mind. When that happens, everything that mind sees has Light coming down upon it, and the bits and pieces we can see begin to reflect and refract the multitude of colors and glimpses of divine light that hit them. This is seeing beyond a "glass darkly" into the brilliance of daylight cast upon everything the eye beholds. If we do not set aside our efforts to understand and simply let Spirit illuminate, we will only have a reflection of our own minds, an image of our own selves, our own ideas about something beyond our grasp. So frankly, anyone who has not seen with the eyes of Spirit, literally, has not seen yet.

The Bible is an inspired book. Inside it are the teachings of Jesus Christ, narratives, poetry, life quotations, revelation, songs, historical accounts and others. This book is our guide to righteousness.
It holds the illuminations that others have seen, and holds Wisdom for those who can see and hear. It also stands a voice for those who hear through faith to reach towards what they have not yet fully seen. But many go astray thinking if they can only read it right, believe correctly, follow the teachings to a T that they will then see. One can search forever this way and still not apprehend.

Therefore, contemplative is saying to “do not read the Bible,” and try experiencing another dimension of spirituality.
Not at all. By all means, read. Let me put it this way. I am a musician, and artist, a mystic. Do I no longer find inspiration in music because I create music? Do I no longer listen to others? I may touch the face of God, experience the living waters from the tree of life flowing from my very belly to the whole of life, but does this mean I do not see God in others? Does this mean I do not feel inspired listening to the wind? Does this mean I do not find joy in the voice of a child awakening to life? Does this mean I find nothing of God in the world? No! In fact through what I can see, I see Wonder in everything. So certainly, the inspired words of others speak to God in me. It's an exchange of Light and Light. It's far more than merely being told ideas. It's awakening to Life, to Holy Spirit.

But we followed the rules set in the Scriptures—the standard of God.
At a certain point, you are that standard because God lives in you. It's not a matter of following external codes and rules, hoping you get it right. That's fine in youth before one tastes that Life itself. But as that happens, as we mature, we become that "Law". "Love works no ill. Love is the fulfilment of the law".

The Scripture should not be discarded.
2 Tim. 3:16-17
16. All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness;
17. that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.

Thanks
Don't discard it. Understand it with the Heart. And how does that happen?
 

Yoshua

Well-Known Member
Those who love the Bible, surely, have noticed that it commands contemplation of God. I see you are familiar with the letters of Paul. I might recommend some contemplation of the third chapter of his second letter to the Corinthians, in which he reminds them that as important as the words of Moses are, Jesus' ministry is one of speaking to God face to face, not chaining oneself to "tablets of stone".As he concludes : "And we all, who with unveiled faces contemplate the Lord’s glory, are being transformed into his image with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit." He is both condemning the worship of books and advocating the direct contemplation of the glory of Lord.


Hi Politesse,

2 Cor. 3:3-4
3. being manifested that you are a letter of Christ, cared for by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone, but on tablets of human hearts.
4. And such confidence we have through Christ toward God.

We both agree on what the scripture says, but can you explain more on the details which is connected to contemplative?

Thanks
 

Yoshua

Well-Known Member
Thanks for starting this thread. Contemplative practice has found its way into Protestant circles as well in recent years. That it was practiced within Catholicism, well let's not forget there was no Protestant churches until the 16th century, so ALL Christian practices, the Bible translations, teachings, etc, all existed there too. So that is not a detractor, anymore than any Christian practice is since they all were part of Catholicism. Besides, outside that, if you wish to look at the Pentecostal/Charismatic churches, they have their own forms of deeper inner practices, the experiential, the altered states experience, etc.

Yes, there are protestants, but that does not mean there are no Christians (not Roman Catholics) exist before. For Pentecostals/charismatic churches, there are some issues here in regard to the experiential and inner practices such as signs and wonders.

Oh my goodness. Many. Really, and this is not meant as a put down, but anyone who relies solely on what their reasoning minds can tell them do not see what Spirit reveals. Think of it like this. The mind that tries to see into the things of God, quite literally sees through a glass darkly, as Paul put it. But Spirit illuminates from beyond mind. When that happens, everything that mind sees has Light coming down upon it, and the bits and pieces we can see begin to reflect and refract the multitude of colors and glimpses of divine light that hit them. This is seeing beyond a "glass darkly" into the brilliance of daylight cast upon everything the eye beholds. If we do not set aside our efforts to understand and simply let Spirit illuminate, we will only have a reflection of our own minds, an image of our own selves, our own ideas about something beyond our grasp. So frankly, anyone who has not seen with the eyes of Spirit, literally, has not seen yet.

What is the Spirit that illuminates from beyond mind? Does the light that you mentioned is literally the things that a Christian must experienced?

How can you allow the Spirit illuminates?

It holds the illuminations that others have seen, and holds Wisdom for those who can see and hear. It also stands a voice for those who hear through faith to reach towards what they have not yet fully seen. But many go astray thinking if they can only read it right, believe correctly, follow the teachings to a T that they will then see. One can search forever this way and still not apprehend.
Not at all. By all means, read. Let me put it this way. I am a musician, and artist, a mystic. Do I no longer find inspiration in music because I create music? Do I no longer listen to others? I may touch the face of God, experience the living waters from the tree of life flowing from my very belly to the whole of life, but does this mean I do not see God in others? Does this mean I do not feel inspired listening to the wind? Does this mean I do not find joy in the voice of a child awakening to life? Does this mean I find nothing of God in the world? No! In fact through what I can see, I see Wonder in everything. So certainly, the inspired words of others speak to God in me. It's an exchange of Light and Light. It's far more than merely being told ideas. It's awakening to Life, to Holy Spirit.

I also like music, and I also see wonder in everything God created. Inspired words of others may be taken as lesson in life. So it is clear that contemplative is in deep focus on the written inspired word of God (Bible), but inviting higher experience with something?

At a certain point, you are that standard because God lives in you. It's not a matter of following external codes and rules, hoping you get it right. That's fine in youth before one tastes that Life itself. But as that happens, as we mature, we become that "Law". "Love works no ill. Love is the fulfilment of the law".

What is the Life that you’re talking? Is this the eternal life that God offered through Jesus Christ?

Thanks
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Yes, there are protestants, but that does not mean there are no Christians (not Roman Catholics) exist before. For Pentecostals/charismatic churches, there are some issues here in regard to the experiential and inner practices such as signs and wonders.
I did not say there are not issues with Pentecostals. Of course there is no "guilt by association" with anyone because they are simply part of any group. The same of course is true for those who identify both as Protestant or Catholic. God looks at the heart, not the clothes you wear or the style of your haircut. God is bigger than us in this regard. ;) Regarding Pentecostals, I cite them as some example of those who within the Protestant approach they are ones seeking to experience God. It is more than just about religious forms and doctrines for them, as they seek some tangible taste of Spirit, in however far that goes for them.

In regards to contemplative practice itself, it goes considerably deeper than this, and one finds at this point of a much more direct communion of spirit and mind with God, that these differences we place as matters of importance spiritually, are really more reflections of our own modes of evaluating truth and value. What God sees, these things, the clothes we wear, how we identify ourselves, the ideas we have about God, etc, are just dross to be burned off in the fire in order to see with Purity. The same holds true for in how we judge and evaluate our own selves. What set of eyes are we seeing ourselves with? Until we become immersed in those Waters, we don't really know to see out of any other set of eyes than that of our unillumed minds, judging ourselves and others as man judges, not as God sees.

What is the Spirit that illuminates from beyond mind?
The Divine. The being of God. The Spirit of Truth. The Mind of Christ. There are many ways this is spoken of.

Does the light that you mentioned is literally the things that a Christian must experienced?
I would say they should. Without this, are they truly living in Freedom? This is not to say there is no good without it, but as the Christ said, "I am come that you might have life, and have it more abundantly". And as Paul says, "Let this mind be in you that was in Christ Jesus", that is to say a shift in our awareness, our consciousness itself, not merely adopting an idea, but an actual shift in our minds itself. "I live, and yet not I, but Christ in me", says Paul. It is not just adopting another belief, but literally a new mind. That happens through quite literally having your mind remade through a process of transformation. "I die daily" says Paul.

The greatest command Jesus said was to "Love God with all your mind, heart, soul, and strength". It is the source of that transformation. This is what contemplative practice does. It is entering into that closet where one communions with Spirit, in Spirit and Truth, as Jesus said. Then from this, there is a renewing of the heart and the mind and the soul, through which we are then able to see ourselves and then become able to see others with those very eyes of God, and thus fulfill the second commandment as Jesus said to, "Love your neighbor as yourself". Without the first action, we are unable to fulfill the second, as we judge out of ourselves as man judges himself and others. The entire fulfilling of the law of God, the law of Spirit, is dependent on the former, to be filled by the Spirit of God. But this does not mean if someone does not know this in themselves they are not loved of God, of course. But they don't truly know that themselves in the manner that brings about that true Freedom, "Where the Spirit of the Lord is there is Freedom". This is where and how that happens.

How can you allow the Spirit illuminates?
That of course is part of the practice of contemplative prayer, or meditation. As the busy chattering mind is quieted and we begin to hear and see that Spirit of God which is always before us but blocked out of view because of our own selves, many things arise to view, from our own lives; things hidden from ourselves by ourselves, shames, resentments, judgments, etc, become seen as they are, yet held without fear or judgment. We learn how to see ourselves firstly without condemnation, seeing ourselves in that Spirit of Trust, as it were. Then in time, through learning to not hold these things which prevent us from God, we learn to drop all these things from us and enter into the Spirit of God, free in our minds and spirit, opening to our own soul which exists beyond the mess of things we tell ourselves about who we think we are in the flesh. This leads to the mind being transformed into that Light, into the Image of God. And this is the beginning of that true liberty, freedom, that "life more abundantly".

In a nutshell, the entire practice itself can be summarized as us learning how to "allow" God. This does not happen without our own efforts to "get out of the way", in a word. This should not be mistaken with the idea of doing this from within ourselves, a "salvation of works", as it might be misconstrued. It is only through Grace the transformation happens, but we do have to present ourselves to allow that to happen. We do have to get up and make ourselves available. Our job is to work to make ourselves healthy through disciplined practices, to allow ourselves for that Natural healing to occur. It doesn't happen by doing nothing, in the sense of laying on the couch and watching T.V. instead. But we cannot manufacture Spirit through our efforts. Spirit is Spirit, and all we do is learn to allow Spirit. There is the key, and all of this is in the Bible. They are not just nice-sounding words, but practical practice that results in a tangible, lived reality.

I also like music, and I also see wonder in everything God created. Inspired words of others may be taken as lesson in life. So it is clear that contemplative is in deep focus on the written inspired word of God (Bible), but inviting higher experience with something?
Let me clarify. The practice itself is not about "study". That is something separate. One can certainly use scriptural passages as part of the practice itself, but it is not about understanding the meaning of the words by "deeper thought". At least not thought by itself alone. It is first by opening to Spirit, that then mind then can take what it has known and see it in a new light, like holding up a jewel you have seen many times, but now as a new light hits it it speaks a new brilliance that you had never seen, nor imaged it held previously! It is that "new mind" that allows that light to be seen, not just "more study". :) There are countless times in practice for me where passages I have known and heard for years suddenly become brilliant jewels, beyond anything my mind had ever conceived. It is as if it were there the entire time, but simply unseen, like pulling backing this invisible veil that our regular mind covered it with.

But the key is what you touch, what touches you, is not about some doctrinal beliefs, some ideas of theologies, but rather about allowing us to take perspective on all of this with a renewed mind. It is the understanding that opens Spirit in everything, not just in one's understanding of the words of others in the forms of written scriptures, but in everything! Every leaf of every tree is scripture! Every breath of air, is scripture, being written moment by moment, truth to truth. Truth does not live outside of us, but within us. We no longer see ourselves as separate from God, as God breathes through us. Even the religious "believer" without this is living separate from God. "Belief" is an invitation to Life, but it in itself still exists in separation. It is through faith, that you step beyond the veil into that Life itself. But it's not a theoretical, metaphysical idea that exists out there, beyond this plane of existence. It is within this very reality, but beyond the veil of the mind, the veil of the flesh that we hang between us and God that disallows Spirit within us and the world in which, "we live and move and have our being".

What is the Life that you’re talking? Is this the eternal life that God offered through Jesus Christ?
Of course. It is that Life that is offered to the whole world, in which the whole world, "lives and moves and has our being". It's there at all moments, in all things, but not seen by the mind that sees itself apart from it, contracted in our own self-shame, our own fear, our own guilt, and so forth. There is a reason that "Liberty", or Freedom is a metaphor of choice to describe this. That eternal life is what is lived in each moment, not something in the future. How we live that, or don't live that, is matter of living that Liberty, it is a matter of the set of eyes we see with.
 

Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Staff member
Premium Member
Therefore, contemplative is saying to “do not read the Bible,” and try experiencing another dimension of spirituality.

With all due respect, kind sir, that statement is profoundly and patently untrue. o_O

It is no more or less than a regurgitation of age-old Protestant prejudices against Catholics (like the idea that we worship idols) lacking any substantive basis in reality. Indeed nothing could be further from the truth.

The primary spiritual practice associated with acquired contemplation in the Catholic (Western) mystical tradition is Lectio Divina, a prayerful meditative and contemplative absorption in the Word of Sacred Scripture under the influence of divine grace. This is effectively what Catholic monks spend half their day doing, between manual labour and mass, while alone in their cells:


Lectio Divina - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In Christianity, Lectio Divina (Latin for "Divine Reading") is a traditional Benedictine practice of scriptural reading, meditation and prayer intended to promote communion with God and to increase the knowledge of God's Word.[1] It does not treat Scripture as texts to be studied, but as the Living Word.[2]

Traditionally, Lectio Divina has four separate steps: read; meditate; pray; contemplate. First a passage of Scripture is read, then its meaning is reflected upon. This is followed by prayer and contemplation on the Word of God

It is an ancient monastic practice (which the church encourages laity to learn as well) leading to the fullness of the interior life. It involves:

Lectio - the slow, spiritual reading of a scripture passage

Meditatio - meditating on the passage (ie reflecting on it)

Oratio - The movement of one's whole heart or being (affective prayer), opening up to God through the words

Contemplatio - One simply rests in God without any thoughts or rational analysis, neither using imagination or the memory. It is not an act of doing but rather that of being in God's Presence through His Word.

It was neatly summarized by the 12th century mystic and monk known as "Guigio II":


"...Reading, meditation, prayer, [and] contemplation: lectio, meditatio, oratio, contemplatio. Reading is careful study of [Sacred] Scripture, with the soul's [whole] attention: Meditation is the studious action of the mind to investigate hidden truth, led by one's own reason. Prayer is the heart's devoted attending to God, so that evil may be removed and good may be obtained. Contemplation is the mind suspended -somehow elevated above itself - in God so that it tastes the joys of everlasting sweetness. Reading accords with exercise of the outward [senses]; meditation accords with interior understanding; prayer accords with desire; contemplation is above all senses..."

- Guigo II (1140-1193), The Ladder of Monks

Lectio Divina and by implication "contemplation" (mystical prayer) is the true and ancient Christian way of engaging with the Word of God as spirit and life rather than a dry, dead letter.
 
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Yoshua

Well-Known Member
I did not say there are not issues with Pentecostals. Of course there is no "guilt by association" with anyone because they are simply part of any group. The same of course is true for those who identify both as Protestant or Catholic. God looks at the heart, not the clothes you wear or the style of your haircut. God is bigger than us in this regard. ;) Regarding Pentecostals, I cite them as some example of those who within the Protestant approach they are ones seeking to experience God. It is more than just about religious forms and doctrines for them, as they seek some tangible taste of Spirit, in however far that goes for them.

In regards to contemplative practice itself, it goes considerably deeper than this, and one finds at this point of a much more direct communion of spirit and mind with God, that these differences we place as matters of importance spiritually, are really more reflections of our own modes of evaluating truth and value. What God sees, these things, the clothes we wear, how we identify ourselves, the ideas we have about God, etc, are just dross to be burned off in the fire in order to see with Purity. The same holds true for in how we judge and evaluate our own selves. What set of eyes are we seeing ourselves with? Until we become immersed in those Waters, we don't really know to see out of any other set of eyes than that of our unillumed minds, judging ourselves and others as man judges, not as God sees.

Could you cite a scripture that pertain to “direct communion of spirit and mind with God”?

The Divine. The being of God. The Spirit of Truth. The Mind of Christ. There are many ways this is spoken of.
John 16:13-15
13. "But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come.
14. "He shall glorify Me; for He shall take of Mine, and shall disclose it to you.
15. "All things that the Father has are Mine; therefore I said, that He takes of Mine, and will disclose it to you.

John 14:16-18
16. "And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever;
17. that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not behold Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you, and will be in you.
18. "I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you.

Is this the Spirit of Truth that you are referring? How does the Spirit of Truth functions in your life?

I would say they should. Without this, are they truly living in Freedom? This is not to say there is no good without it, but as the Christ said, "I am come that you might have life, and have it more abundantly". And as Paul says, "Let this mind be in you that was in Christ Jesus", that is to say a shift in our awareness, our consciousness itself, not merely adopting an idea, but an actual shift in our minds itself. "I live, and yet not I, but Christ in me", says Paul. It is not just adopting another belief, but literally a new mind. That happens through quite literally having your mind remade through a process of transformation. "I die daily" says Paul.
Yes, I agree with Paul’s message, but how about the shift in our awareness, our consciousness itself or shift of minds?
What should you do to achieve this?

The greatest command Jesus said was to "Love God with all your mind, heart, soul, and strength". It is the source of that transformation. This is what contemplative practice does. It is entering into that closet where one communions with Spirit, in Spirit and Truth, as Jesus said. Then from this, there is a renewing of the heart and the mind and the soul, through which we are then able to see ourselves and then become able to see others with those very eyes of God, and thus fulfill the second commandment as Jesus said to, "Love your neighbor as yourself". Without the first action, we are unable to fulfill the second, as we judge out of ourselves as man judges himself and others. The entire fulfilling of the law of God, the law of Spirit, is dependent on the former, to be filled by the Spirit of God. But this does not mean if someone does not know this in themselves they are not loved of God, of course. But they don't truly know that themselves in the manner that brings about that true Freedom, "Where the Spirit of the Lord is there is Freedom". This is where and how that happens.
I believed that I’ve been transformed by the Holy Spirit. I have a life of love and peace in my heart and I’m not contemplative. Why do you think it is necessary to be contemplative?

That of course is part of the practice of contemplative prayer, or meditation. As the busy chattering mind is quieted and we begin to hear and see that Spirit of God which is always before us but blocked out of view because of our own selves, many things arise to view, from our own lives; things hidden from ourselves by ourselves, shames, resentments, judgments, etc, become seen as they are, yet held without fear or judgment. We learn how to see ourselves firstly without condemnation, seeing ourselves in that Spirit of Trust, as it were. Then in time, through learning to not hold these things which prevent us from God, we learn to drop all these things from us and enter into the Spirit of God, free in our minds and spirit, opening to our own soul which exists beyond the mess of things we tell ourselves about who we think we are in the flesh. This leads to the mind being transformed into that Light, into the Image of God. And this is the beginning of that true liberty, freedom, that "life more abundantly".
Did Jesus or Paul do practice the contemplative prayer?

Let me clarify. The practice itself is not about "study". That is something separate. One can certainly use scriptural passages as part of the practice itself, but it is not about understanding the meaning of the words by "deeper thought". At least not thought by itself alone. It is first by opening to Spirit, that then mind then can take what it has known and see it in a new light, like holding up a jewel you have seen many times, but now as a new light hits it it speaks a new brilliance that you had never seen, nor imaged it held previously! It is that "new mind" that allows that light to be seen, not just "more study". :) There are countless times in practice for me where passages I have known and heard for years suddenly become brilliant jewels, beyond anything my mind had ever conceived. It is as if it were there the entire time, but simply unseen, like pulling backing this invisible veil that our regular mind covered it with.

But the key is what you touch, what touches you, is not about some doctrinal beliefs, some ideas of theologies, but rather about allowing us to take perspective on all of this with a renewed mind. It is the understanding that opens Spirit in everything, not just in one's understanding of the words of others in the forms of written scriptures, but in everything! Every leaf of every tree is scripture! Every breath of air, is scripture, being written moment by moment, truth to truth. Truth does not live outside of us, but within us. We no longer see ourselves as separate from God, as God breathes through us. Even the religious "believer" without this is living separate from God. "Belief" is an invitation to Life, but it in itself still exists in separation. It is through faith, that you step beyond the veil into that Life itself. But it's not a theoretical, metaphysical idea that exists out there, beyond this plane of existence. It is within this very reality, but beyond the veil of the mind, the veil of the flesh that we hang between us and God that disallows Spirit within us and the world in which, "we live and move and have our being".
Rom. 12:1-2
1. I urge you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worship.
2. And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect.

Eph.4:22-24
22. that, in reference to your former manner of life, you lay aside the old self, which is being corrupted in accordance with the lusts of deceit,
23. and that you be renewed in the spirit of your mind,
24. and put on the new self, which in the likeness of God has been created in righteousness and holiness of the truth.

Col. 3:1-2
1. If then you have been raised up with Christ, keep seeking the things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God.
2. Set your mind on the things above, not on the things that are on earth.

Based on these Scriptures, our mind should be renewed and always set on the things above in Christ. There is no mention of opening our mind to spirit.

Of course. It is that Life that is offered to the whole world, in which the whole world, "lives and moves and has our being". It's there at all moments, in all things, but not seen by the mind that sees itself apart from it, contracted in our own self-shame, our own fear, our own guilt, and so forth. There is a reason that "Liberty", or Freedom is a metaphor of choice to describe this. That eternal life is what is lived in each moment, not something in the future. How we live that, or don't live that, is matter of living that Liberty, it is a matter of the set of eyes we see with.

If the eternal life is a free gift from God, how do you receive that eternal life and be with Jesus in eternity?

Thanks
 

Yoshua

Well-Known Member
With all due respect, kind sir, that statement is profoundly and patently untrue. o_O

It is no more or less than a regurgitation of age-old Protestant prejudices against Catholics (like the idea that we worship idols) lacking any substantive basis in reality. Indeed nothing could be further from the truth.

The primary spiritual practice associated with acquired contemplation in the Catholic (Western) mystical tradition is Lectio Divina, a prayerful meditative and contemplative absorption in the Word of Sacred Scripture under the influence of divine grace. This is effectively what Catholic monks spend half their day doing, between manual labour and mass, while alone in their cells:


Lectio Divina - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In Christianity, Lectio Divina (Latin for "Divine Reading") is a traditional Benedictine practice of scriptural reading, meditation and prayer intended to promote communion with God and to increase the knowledge of God's Word.[1] It does not treat Scripture as texts to be studied, but as the Living Word.[2]

Traditionally, Lectio Divina has four separate steps: read; meditate; pray; contemplate. First a passage of Scripture is read, then its meaning is reflected upon. This is followed by prayer and contemplation on the Word of God

It is an ancient monastic practice (which the church encourages laity to learn as well) leading to the fullness of the interior life. It involves:

Lectio - the slow, spiritual reading of a scripture passage

Meditatio - meditating on the passage (ie reflecting on it)

Oratio - The movement of one's whole heart or being (affective prayer), opening up to God through the words

Contemplatio - One simply rests in God without any thoughts or rational analysis, neither using imagination or the memory. It is not an act of doing but rather that of being in God's Presence through His Word.

It was neatly summarized by the 12th century mystic and monk known as "Guigio II":


"...Reading, meditation, prayer, [and] contemplation: lectio, meditatio, oratio, contemplatio. Reading is careful study of [Sacred] Scripture, with the soul's [whole] attention: Meditation is the studious action of the mind to investigate hidden truth, led by one's own reason. Prayer is the heart's devoted attending to God, so that evil may be removed and good may be obtained. Contemplation is the mind suspended -somehow elevated above itself - in God so that it tastes the joys of everlasting sweetness. Reading accords with exercise of the outward [senses]; meditation accords with interior understanding; prayer accords with desire; contemplation is above all senses..."

- Guigo II (1140-1193), The Ladder of Monks

Lectio Divina and by implication "contemplation" (mystical prayer) is the true and ancient Christian way of engaging with the Word of God as spirit and life rather than a dry, dead letter.
Hi Vouthon,

Thanks for educating me regarding contemplative. By the way, may I ask you something, do you believe that the Bible is the holy and inspired word of God ,and should be followed by Christians?

Thanks
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Could you cite a scripture that pertain to “direct communion of spirit and mind with God”?
That's almost hard to do since it's pretty much in everything that is being said about what this 'reconciliation to God' is. "And lo, I am with you always,", "Christ in you", "I in you and you in me," "that they may be One as we are One", and so forth. What I think I'm trying to say is that these verses are not speaking of some theoretical thing you "believe in", but rather is an actual, lived, consciously aware state of mind and being. Reconciliation with God is not something in some legal book in heaven, a ledger line notation that happens 'behind the scenes'. These words are not religious platitudes, but actual realized experiential states of being. Jesus is the Light of the World, and in that same way so are we, or can be, if that Light lives in us. That is immediate awareness of God in body, mind, soul, and spirit. That is direct communion with God.

So, basically the whole of the NT, actually. Now, in practice however, do we always realize that? No. Which is why the practice of contemplation makes that immediate presence and mind of God known to you, and brings you back into that center, that ground that is eternal ground. This is what is being spoken of when Paul says, "And we all, who with unveiled faces contemplate the Lord's glory, are being transformed into his image with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.". There is your direct communion, with "unveiled faces". It is that "unveiling" that happens through contemplative practice, and the result is transformation, actual, literal, dramatic transformation in "ever-increasing glory". This is not a behind the scenes thing, but fully with unveiled faces, center stage in full view reality. We become transformed into this image of God.

John 16:13-15
13. "But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come.
14. "He shall glorify Me; for He shall take of Mine, and shall disclose it to you.
15. "All things that the Father has are Mine; therefore I said, that He takes of Mine, and will disclose it to you.

John 14:16-18
16. "And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever;
17. that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not behold Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you, and will be in you.
18. "I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you.

Is this the Spirit of Truth that you are referring? How does the Spirit of Truth functions in your life?
Yes. How does this function? It would have to be described in my own experience. The more you are aware of Spirit in your lived, daily experience of life, the more you learn how to hear and move within this. You can call it a certain "intuitive" sense, in that it is is sensed and felt when when you don't have an immediate knowledge of something, but it's more than that. I think to say "in him we live and move and have our being", is a good way to begin to talk about it. Indeed, we do, but how aware of that are we? Most of the time we are just operating in our heads, thinking about this or that, reacting to this or that from that place of our egos, our thoughts, our emotions, our beliefs, our values, our ideas, and so forth. But this is not the Mind of Christ. This is our minds. To know the Mind of Christ, is well, literally like having two brains. :) We begin to be able to think and understand through this "higher mind", as it were. It's not just a question of "what would Jesus do," sort of thing, but it becomes a different set of eyes that we see through which affects our minds, our bodies, our emotions, our attitudes, our actions, and so forth. You become much more consciously aware of the world, the presence of Spirit in everything, you see and feel God and move in its movements, so to speak. It's really hard to describe this in words, other that the use of metaphor and poetry.

Yes, I agree with Paul’s message, but how about the shift in our awareness, our consciousness itself or shift of minds?
What should you do to achieve this?
Well, by not trying to "achieve" it. :) Let me explain. The practice of contemplation or meditation is about relaxing your hold on your ideas or trying to attain or achieve a goal. I said it before and it bears repeating always, that what it really is, the practice is to learn how to simply allow. It's not something you do. It's not something you create or manufacture or produce or accomplish. The only thing you can lay claim to is that you successfully learned how to stop trying. :) "And lo, I am with you always". The only thing you do is get out of the way and let that be seen and known, experienced, and allowed to grow you into that very self-same image. It takes practice to learn how to allow. It's not something done once. It requires "unlearning" when it comes to Spirit. The rules move in reverse, it seems. "Seek and you shall find," is literally realized by learning how to not seek for yourself and your own desires and needs. When you stop looking for yourself, then you are ready to receive higher measure.

I believed that I’ve been transformed by the Holy Spirit. I have a life of love and peace in my heart and I’m not contemplative. Why do you think it is necessary to be contemplative?
Well that's good. But I'll say this. There is no end to that Infinite Wellspring of Life. The practice of contemplation takes what you have and deepens it beyond what your mind can possibly conceive of. I practice meditation/contemplation on a daily basis, for an hour each morning over the past five years. I have learned that when you think you have "arrived", that it couldn't possibly go deeper, move higher, grow wider, be more brilliant, loving, compassionate, etc, there is yet another layer beyond that, and another layer, and another layer. In short, the practice moves you deeper and deeper, farther and faster than any other practice. Yes, we can experience God in moments of our lives, and rest in a belief that God is there even if we feel detached or removed from it. But there is no other practice that frankly puts you into the path like this. All I can say, is try it and see.

Did Jesus or Paul do practice the contemplative prayer?
Let's be clear about something. The particular forms that meditation or contemplation take are things that become developed over time, and there may in fact be other forms that take one to the same place. The one that Vouthon cited is one recorded as practiced by the Desert Fathers, and others previously as well I believe. The Bible is a bit sparse on the details of actual techniques that were used, but rather speaks at a certain high-level view of some sort of mystical practices. Was Paul a mystic, is really the appropriate question. Yes, certainly he was. He describes mystical awareness and experiences in his writings, not simply his Damascus Road experience. Did Jesus have mystical experiences? Well, that's a given. He went into the desert to fast and pray for 40 days, he experienced a confrontation with the devil, and he returned to begin what became his ministry for the next three years. He was in constant communion with the Father, and so forth. He is described as going to the mountain to pray/meditate, and so forth. It doesn't detail his actual practices, though he instructs that we go into silence, into secret places where God hears in secret, and so forth. In fact the Bible doesn't actually teach much about the practice of prayer itself, other than as Jesus says it is personal. It is internal. "The kingdom of God is inside you", Lk. 17:21. And so forth. That is where meditation takes you. That is what is realized very directly, very immediately through it. That to me is the true nature of prayer. It is its highest form of expression and realization. Even simply petitionary prayer, is a form of meditation. Contemplative practice takes it much deeper.

Rom. 12:1-2
1. I urge you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worship.
2. And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect.

Eph.4:22-24
22. that, in reference to your former manner of life, you lay aside the old self, which is being corrupted in accordance with the lusts of deceit,
23. and that you be renewed in the spirit of your mind,
24. and put on the new self, which in the likeness of God has been created in righteousness and holiness of the truth.

Col. 3:1-2
1. If then you have been raised up with Christ, keep seeking the things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God.
2. Set your mind on the things above, not on the things that are on earth.

Based on these Scriptures, our mind should be renewed and always set on the things above in Christ. There is no mention of opening our mind to spirit.
Yes it does. It's in these very verses. How is your mind renewed? Paul answers, "And we all, who with unveiled faces contemplate the Lord's glory, are being transformed into his image with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.". The entire first of the two greatest commandments is to "Love God with all you heart, mind, soul, and strength". How on earth can our minds be transformed if we don't open it to Spirit? If we are doing it from ourselves, of our own efforts, it is the image of ourselves we end up with. This transformation of mind, body, soul, and spirit is spiritual, not mental, not a new theology, not just shifting what we think about things.

If the eternal life is a free gift from God, how do you receive that eternal life and be with Jesus in eternity?
You receive it in every moment, through opening yourself to it. That eternal life is not a future thing, it is. It is not outside this moment. There is no "in eternity" that begins after death. We are "in eternity", each and every single moment. We are "in eternity" right now. So the answer to this question is to be opened to God, to Spirit, always, all time, now. It is an action we do of allowing, as I said. Meditation practice teaches us that action of how to allow what is to simply be. This is eternal life. This is what it is to have eternal life. "I am the Life", says Jesus.
 
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lovemuffin

τὸν ἄρτον τοῦ ἔρωτος
Could you cite a scripture that pertain to “direct communion of spirit and mind with God”?

I've always been fond of the beginning of 2 Peter:

"His divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who called us to his own glory and excellence, by which he has granted to us his precious and very great promises, so that through them you may become partakers of the divine nature…" (2 Peter 1:3-4)
It is worth noting that the word "partakers" is, in the Greek, koinonoi, the very word from which the English "communion" is derived. The epistle exhorts us to become communicants with the very nature of God. It's a bit much to attempt a complete exegesis of the contemplative or mystical symbolism involved with the word κοινωνἱα (communion) in the N.T. in one post, because, similarly to Windwalker, I would say these themes are so prevalent that it's not a question of giving a single example, although these couple verses in 2 Peter may sum it up very well.

I would also suggest looking at a slightly different section of the previously cited John 14:

“I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. Yet a little while and the world will see me no more, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. In that day you will know that I am in my Father, and you in me, and I in you. Whoever has my commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves me. And he who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and manifest myself to him.” Judas (not Iscariot) said to him, “Lord, how is it that you will manifest yourself to us, and not to the world?” Jesus answered him, “If anyone loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. (John 14:18-23)
This manifestation of Christ to the disciple (yet not to the world; not visibly in the literal way) is explained as the Father and Son "making our home with him". The phrasing is actually somewhat interesting. "Home" is a participle form of the verb to remain, rather than the word for house. "We will come and make a place to remain with him" would be a very literal translation. In context with John's many symbolic expressions about Jesus: "I am the bread of life", "I am the true vine", "I am the door", and etc, it seems immediately natural to give it this kind of mystical, experiential gloss. Apart from the vine, one can do nothing, not even exist. The bread of life has to be eaten, as in communion. We are temples of the Holy Spirit, and should have the mind of Christ in us, as Paul writes, repeating many times the phrase "in Christ" in his epistles. It would seem to me to require quite an unnatural exegesis to read these as being incompatible with a direct experience of God. What else is the sending of the Spirit, or the baptism in the Spirit (cf. Acts 10:47) supposed to symbolize and represent?
 

Yoshua

Well-Known Member
Yes. How does this function? It would have to be described in my own experience. The more you are aware of Spirit in your lived, daily experience of life, the more you learn how to hear and move within this. You can call it a certain "intuitive" sense, in that it is is sensed and felt when when you don't have an immediate knowledge of something, but it's more than that. I think to say "in him we live and move and have our being", is a good way to begin to talk about it. Indeed, we do, but how aware of that are we? Most of the time we are just operating in our heads, thinking about this or that, reacting to this or that from that place of our egos, our thoughts, our emotions, our beliefs, our values, our ideas, and so forth. But this is not the Mind of Christ. This is our minds. To know the Mind of Christ, is well, literally like having two brains. :) We begin to be able to think and understand through this "higher mind", as it were. It's not just a question of "what would Jesus do," sort of thing, but it becomes a different set of eyes that we see through which affects our minds, our bodies, our emotions, our attitudes, our actions, and so forth. You become much more consciously aware of the world, the presence of Spirit in everything, you see and feel God and move in its movements, so to speak. It's really hard to describe this in words, other that the use of metaphor and poetry.
Hi Windwalker,

Knowing the mind of Christ and to be sensitive in God movements is by the power of the Holy Spirit. He is our guide. We cannot aim for a higher mind such as reaching to be like God. This is another thing.

Well, by not trying to "achieve" it. :) Let me explain. The practice of contemplation or meditation is about relaxing your hold on your ideas or trying to attain or achieve a goal. I said it before and it bears repeating always, that what it really is, the practice is to learn how to simply allow. It's not something you do. It's not something you create or manufacture or produce or accomplish. The only thing you can lay claim to is that you successfully learned how to stop trying. :) "And lo, I am with you always". The only thing you do is get out of the way and let that be seen and known, experienced, and allowed to grow you into that very self-same image. It takes practice to learn how to allow. It's not something done once. It requires "unlearning" when it comes to Spirit. The rules move in reverse, it seems. "Seek and you shall find," is literally realized by learning how to not seek for yourself and your own desires and needs. When you stop looking for yourself, then you are ready to receive higher measure.
Matt. 28:20
20. "teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.'' Amen.

Matt. 7:7
7. "Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.

If you are pertaining to these verses, it is clearly emphasized the Holy Spirit that is will be with us. If you look at the scripture before Jesus ascension, He promised to His disciples that the Comforter/Spirit of Truth will be the one who will be with us.

Then in Matt. 7:7 is in accordance to our prayer; to be persistent, we knock and seek, and it shall be given to us. I believed that these scriptures are not in regard to higher measure or relaxation.

Well that's good. But I'll say this. There is no end to that Infinite Wellspring of Life. The practice of contemplation takes what you have and deepens it beyond what your mind can possibly conceive of. I practice meditation/contemplation on a daily basis, for an hour each morning over the past five years. I have learned that when you think you have "arrived", that it couldn't possibly go deeper, move higher, grow wider, be more brilliant, loving, compassionate, etc, there is yet another layer beyond that, and another layer, and another layer. In short, the practice moves you deeper and deeper, farther and faster than any other practice. Yes, we can experience God in moments of our lives, and rest in a belief that God is there even if we feel detached or removed from it. But there is no other practice that frankly puts you into the path like this. All I can say, is try it and see.
The wellspring of life? A new term for me. How did you do it? Do you have to speak words or something?

Yes it does. It's in these very verses. How is your mind renewed? Paul answers, "And we all, who with unveiled faces contemplate the Lord's glory, are being transformed into his image with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.". The entire first of the two greatest commandments is to "Love God with all you heart, mind, soul, and strength". How on earth can our minds be transformed if we don't open it to Spirit? If we are doing it from ourselves, of our own efforts, it is the image of ourselves we end up with. This transformation of mind, body, soul, and spirit is spiritual, not mental, not a new theology, not just shifting what we think about things.
I think we should some biblical studies here:

2 Cor.3:13-18
13. unlike Moses, who put a veil over his face so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the end of what was passing away.
14. But their minds were hardened. For until this day the same veil remains unlifted in the reading of the Old Testament, because the veil is taken away in Christ.
15. But even to this day, when Moses is read, a veil lies on their heart.
16. Nevertheless when one turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.
17. Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
18. But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as by the Spirit of the Lord.

Paul mentioned v.18, because of the hardened minds of Israel in the Mosaic law. Jesus came to to take away the veil that took them in the bondage of the law. And by the unveiled face through Christ, they will be transformed in Christ-like manner. To be conform to his image as holy and pure. Hence, this is the shifting from the bondage of legalism into a freedom in Christ who is the Lord.

Luke 10:25-27
25. And behold, a certain lawyer stood up and tested Him, saying, "Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?''
26. He said to him, "What is written in the law? What is your reading of it?''
27. So he answered and said, " `You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind,' and `your neighbor as yourself.' ''

This pertains to inheritance of eternal life (v.25-26). The love should not be just in our hearts but with our soul, mind and strength. To inherit a life eternal is to love the Lord thy God. Opening to Spirits is not connected at all. Why should we open to Spirit, if we already had that spirit within us as promised by Jesus?

Rom. 12:1-2
1. I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your reasonable service.
2. And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.

Therefore, the transformation was made it clear in Rom. 12:1-2, that is by presenting our bodies as living sacrifice and pure, holy acceptable to God. The main theme of transformation is to be Christ-like as holy and righteous in the sight of God

You receive it in every moment, through opening yourself to it. That eternal life is not a future thing, it is. It is not outside this moment. There is no "in eternity" that begins after death. We are "in eternity", each and every single moment. We are "in eternity" right now. So the answer to this question is to be opened to God, to Spirit, always, all time, now. It is an action we do of allowing, as I said. Meditation practice teaches us that action of how to allow what is to simply be. This is eternal life. This is what it is to have eternal life. "I am the Life", says Jesus.
If we are in eternity right now, why Jesus should come here to suffer on the cross and offered us the gift of eternal life? Where did you get that notion?

Look at these verses:
John 3:16-17
16. "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
17. "For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

John 17:1-3
1. Jesus spoke these words, lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said: "Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You,
2. "as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him.
3. "And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

In v.2, God gave the authority to Jesus that he should give eternal life to all. Eternal life is through Jesus Christ. Yes, Jesus is the way, the truth and the life. Eternity is not here, but in the after life.

John 6:67-68
67. Then Jesus said to the twelve, "Do you also want to go away?''
68. Then Simon Peter answered Him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life.

Jesus had the words of eternal life. He brought the words of eternal life for us.

Luke 18:18
18. Now a certain ruler asked Him, saying, "Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?''

I’m just thinking, why should they ask Jesus about inheritance of eternal life if the eternal life/eternity is already here?

Thanks
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Knowing the mind of Christ and to be sensitive in God movements is by the power of the Holy Spirit. He is our guide. We cannot aim for a higher mind such as reaching to be like God. This is another thing.

We are explicitly taught we should be like Christ. "Let this mind be in you which was in Christ Jesus". "You are the light of the world". "I am the light of the world". Again, this seems a case where the entire thrust of the NT is that we are to become, in essence, God in the world, that through us, God is manifest in the world, just as Christ manifests God from before the beginning of creation and in the flesh as Jesus. What you are mistaking is that you may be assuming it is the ego that seeks the position of God, and that is not the case at all. It is through laying down the ego, that the mind of Christ can in fact live in you. "I live, and yet not I but Christ in me." "I die daily".

It is not us seeking to be God in our ego, it is us seeking to allow God through surrender of the ego to God. It is the power of the Holy Spirit, but that cannot move in us, nor can we be sensitive to that if we are stuck in the ego, and that is the only set of eyes through which we see. This is a participatory reality, not some magical thing done behind the scenes that you are supposed to just trust is true, but one that we do not actually experience in ourselves.

Matt. 28:20
20. "teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.'' Amen.

Matt. 7:7
7. "Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.

If you are pertaining to these verses, it is clearly emphasized the Holy Spirit that is will be with us. If you look at the scripture before Jesus ascension, He promised to His disciples that the Comforter/Spirit of Truth will be the one who will be with us.
Sure, of course.

Then in Matt. 7:7 is in accordance to our prayer; to be persistent, we knock and seek, and it shall be given to us. I believed that these scriptures are not in regard to higher measure or relaxation.
I was referring to how one seeks, and knocks, and asks. I'll repeat that here again. You should seek, knock, and ask, all the time. But that seeking is best fulfilled when we no longer seek because you are looking for yourself. Let me put it this way, Jesus said if you lay down your life for his sake, you will find it. That is exactly it. That is exactly the kind of seeking where Spirit, that Mind of Christ will be open unto you.

When we seek for our own needs, that may be all good and fine, but the focus is on yourself. Your eyes are looking at you and your needs, your deficiencies. You are seeking to fill that bucket you are holding with something that will make you a happier person. But what I am saying, what Jesus said is that you paradoxically seek by not seeking, you lay down your life and then you find it. This is paradoxical. It's that sort of seeking the truly opens you to God, and allows God in you to be realized by you. You find yourself, in God. The seeking is a paradoxical seeking, you seek and find, by persistently laying down your life before God. You do not seek Love for your sake, you seek Love for Love's sake. Then you find.

What then happens, is you move away from seeking from a deficiency needs, to seeking from abundance needs. You cup runneth over, filled to the brim and overflowing into the world. This is the two great commandments fulfilled. Christ in you.

The wellspring of life? A new term for me. How did you do it? Do you have to speak words or something?
There are many poetic ways to describe this. I like to call it the Wellspring of LIfe, drawing from the verse where Jesus says that out of our bellies shall flow living waters. The source of these Waters of Life, is that infinite, eternal Wellspring.

What do you mean how did I do it? I practice meditation, doing exactly the things I've been describing. There are no "magic words" or anything. :) I seek to not seek for myself. I seek to lay myself down to find myself in God. This is what happens in contemplative practice, in no small part. It is not just the mind, but the soul, your being, your will, your desire, you hope, and so forth. All of it. So "just believing" with the mind is rather limiting. You have to "believe" with the heart, and how that manifests itself is in full surrender of everything you are to God, that you "die" in order to live. Just believing, is not that dying. The dying is to truly move into God in all that you are. All I can say is, try it and see. Then all this makes perfect sense. :)

I think we should some biblical studies here:

2 Cor.3:13-18
13. unlike Moses, who put a veil over his face so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the end of what was passing away.
14. But their minds were hardened. For until this day the same veil remains unlifted in the reading of the Old Testament, because the veil is taken away in Christ.
15. But even to this day, when Moses is read, a veil lies on their heart.
16. Nevertheless when one turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.
17. Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
18. But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as by the Spirit of the Lord.

Paul mentioned v.18, because of the hardened minds of Israel in the Mosaic law. Jesus came to to take away the veil that took them in the bondage of the law. And by the unveiled face through Christ, they will be transformed in Christ-like manner. To be conform to his image as holy and pure. Hence, this is the shifting from the bondage of legalism into a freedom in Christ who is the Lord.

Yes. That's right. This is what I am saying. That freedom is a realized reality, a lived and experienced reality, not just something new you believe in that puts you right with God on a book in heaven somewhere that when you die you go to be with Jesus. That's not transformation. That's not Freedom. When we see that we no longer need to live under fear, the bondage of our own lives, trying to find ourselves through conformity to society, religious demands to conform to look like this church or that one as a so-called "true Christian" because of a list of doctrinal beliefs they think make them "right with God", then we are free to let God live in us. But it does not come in full measure by sitting and not engaging yourself with God.

Luke 10:25-27
25. And behold, a certain lawyer stood up and tested Him, saying, "Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?''
26. He said to him, "What is written in the law? What is your reading of it?''
27. So he answered and said, " `You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind,' and `your neighbor as yourself.' ''

This pertains to inheritance of eternal life (v.25-26). The love should not be just in our hearts but with our soul, mind and strength. To inherit a life eternal is to love the Lord thy God. Opening to Spirits is not connected at all. Why should we open to Spirit, if we already had that spirit within us as promised by Jesus?
Who said anything about opening to "spirits"? I'll assume that was a typo and you meant Spirit. When I say open to Spirit, again, yes, of course you have Spirit. But that does not mean we allow that in our lives. You can, and we all do, prevent and block the realization of that in our lives. When we open to Spirit, we are allowing Spirit that is in us to be.

To "inherit eternal life", is really to simply allow Spirit, to realize the Eternal in us and in the worlds, at all times. You have eternal life already. To look for it when you die, is to not see that this is eternity. Even from a logical point of view, how does eternity have a beginning time? Eternity does not have a beginning or an end. I'll give you an analogy. Think of it like a Mobius strip. It loops around on itself infinitely. There is no one point on it that you say is the beginning or the end. As we live our lives, we are in a sense walking along this strip, and at any given point we mark out our own beginning and end. But the Eternal is that which does not move in time. It is that which time is written upon, dots we mark on its surface.

So to know eternal life, is to realize that Infinity, that Eternal reality at any one of those points. Now, here, at this moment. Not off in the distance around the next corner, not after you die. The kingdom of God is within you. You are in eternity now, and the eternal is in you. The only thing is us seeing and knowing it, or not seeing and knowing it. And that is the purpose of a contemplative practice; the seeing an knowing of that Eternal Life in you.

Rom. 12:1-2
1. I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your reasonable service.
2. And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.

Therefore, the transformation was made it clear in Rom. 12:1-2, that is by presenting our bodies as living sacrifice and pure, holy acceptable to God. The main theme of transformation is to be Christ-like as holy and righteous in the sight of God
Yes, of course. Action is required. When we practice contemplation, we are presenting ourselves a living sacrifice. Exactly everything I have been saying. It is not by conforming to external rules, but by growing from the inside out. Make clean the inside of the cup first, says Jesus. Anyone can conform to religious laws. That's easy. To die to yourself, to lay down your own life itself, is not. Rather, we make that hard. So legalism is the easy way to avoid that, making us think we are 'serving God' when in fact we are avoiding God. It is a form of subtle self-deception. Honestly, it's everything Jesus was pointing out to the religious of his day. Don't make the mistake to believe that just because someone calls themselves a Christian that they are doing anything differently than the Jews of Jesus' day he was pointing this out to. It's the same thing, and the name of the religion is incidental. It's where you go with it that marks out the difference.

If we are in eternity right now, why Jesus should come here to suffer on the cross and offered us the gift of eternal life? Where did you get that notion?
One of the many things you come to realize is that that Gift, was there the whole time. It was only us who separated ourselves from it. I could speak to Christ on the cross, but that would get into my own metaphysical, theological thoughts. And the point is not to focus on how I understand this from the perspective I see it. I don't think without the underlying basis I have that it would make sense to you. I'll put it this way, Christ opens God to the world. Through this, we realize God in ourselves. To open to Christ is to open ourselves to God in us. When we taste that Infinite One we realize it was never anywhere but here, everywhere, always and ever. This is my experience. It is also in scritpture. It is spoken of it terms of us not seeing God. For instance David cries, take not your Spirit from me. It is his perspective of his own sense of self-separation from God. It is how we express that in ourselves. It is not however the reality of it.

Look at these verses:
John 3:16-17
16. "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
17. "For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

John 17:1-3
1. Jesus spoke these words, lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said: "Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You,
2. "as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him.
3. "And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

In v.2, God gave the authority to Jesus that he should give eternal life to all. Eternal life is through Jesus Christ. Yes, Jesus is the way, the truth and the life. Eternity is not here, but in the after life.
You are overlaying an idea it begins after death. Christ came that you may know life here and now, life "more abundantly". I'm out of time here, and may pick up responding to the rest later, or leave it as I've responded thus far.
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
John 17:1-3
1. Jesus spoke these words, lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said: "Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You,
2. "as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him.
3. "And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

In v.2, God gave the authority to Jesus that he should give eternal life to all. Eternal life is through Jesus Christ. Yes, Jesus is the way, the truth and the life. Eternity is not here, but in the after life.
I want to come back to this as I left off in haste this morning, not really fleshing this out very well for you. Be sure to read post 13 from this morning first.

Please note in the verse above you quote it says, "And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent." That knowing isn't in the "afterlife". That knowing is now, in this life. If you know God, in this life, then have that eternal life. "This is eternal life", Jesus says right there in the verse you quoted.

John 6:67-68
67. Then Jesus said to the twelve, "Do you also want to go away?''
68. Then Simon Peter answered Him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life.

Jesus had the words of eternal life. He brought the words of eternal life for us.
Of course. He spoke from that place of the Eternal. The words are not "magic words". They are Truth. Truth that we can in fact know in ourselves. Truth we should know in ourselves. When was speaks from that place of the Eternal, the words are eternal life. Peter recognized them in Jesus.

Luke 18:18
18. Now a certain ruler asked Him, saying, "Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?''

I’m just thinking, why should they ask Jesus about inheritance of eternal life if the eternal life/eternity is already here?
Because he was ignorant? :) Seriously, many people asked questions that betrayed their lack of understanding of the deeper truths of the kingdom of God. The Pharisees in the previous chapter were asking when the kingdom of God would come, and he corrected their imaginations that it something that can be observed, that it is here, or it is there. He corrected them saying it is here, now, right there, inside you, "within you" (that is the correct translation). So it's the same sort of thing. Jesus corrected this rich ruler who asked about inheriting eternal life that his attachment to his riches here on earth in worldly possessions, prevented him from "entering into the the kingdom of God". Of course it did.

If you have your eye to yourself and your wants and desires, then you are unable to experience that liberation of Spirit into that kingdom of God within you. You are unable to know that Eternal Life within you. This is what the practice of contemplation does. I allows you to enter into this knowledge of the Eternal within you, which is also in the world. You see it in the world, as you see it in yourself.

The Christ said, "I am the Life". If you have Christ in you, then how is that not Eternal Life in you, here and now?
 
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Yoshua

Well-Known Member
We are explicitly taught we should be like Christ. "Let this mind be in you which was in Christ Jesus". "You are the light of the world". "I am the light of the world". Again, this seems a case where the entire thrust of the NT is that we are to become, in essence, God in the world, that through us, God is manifest in the world, just as Christ manifests God from before the beginning of creation and in the flesh as Jesus. What you are mistaking is that you may be assuming it is the ego that seeks the position of God, and that is not the case at all. It is through laying down the ego, that the mind of Christ can in fact live in you. "I live, and yet not I but Christ in me." "I die daily".

It is not us seeking to be God in our ego, it is us seeking to allow God through surrender of the ego to God. It is the power of the Holy Spirit, but that cannot move in us, nor can we be sensitive to that if we are stuck in the ego, and that is the only set of eyes through which we see. This is a participatory reality, not some magical thing done behind the scenes that you are supposed to just trust is true, but one that we do not actually experience in ourselves.
Hi Windwalker,

My understanding of the Light of the world is to be an example in Christ-like manner. The Christ-like manner for me is not to become like Jesus Christ as having a divine nature, and Son of God. It is by obeying His teachings and having faith. In Prayer, what he taught us—is the one which we must do, and no other additional thing that can be added (man-made invention or practices). When I say that Christ is in me, that would mean--a human follower of Christ, we follow what Jesus taught us.

I was referring to how one seeks, and knocks, and asks. I'll repeat that here again. You should seek, knock, and ask, all the time. But that seeking is best fulfilled when we no longer seek because you are looking for yourself. Let me put it this way, Jesus said if you lay down your life for his sake, you will find it. That is exactly it. That is exactly the kind of seeking where Spirit, that Mind of Christ will be open unto you.

When we seek for our own needs, that may be all good and fine, but the focus is on yourself. Your eyes are looking at you and your needs, your deficiencies. You are seeking to fill that bucket you are holding with something that will make you a happier person. But what I am saying, what Jesus said is that you paradoxically seek by not seeking, you lay down your life and then you find it. This is paradoxical. It's that sort of seeking the truly opens you to God, and allows God in you to be realized by you. You find yourself, in God. The seeking is a paradoxical seeking, you seek and find, by persistently laying down your life before God. You do not seek Love for your sake, you seek Love for Love's sake. Then you find.

What then happens, is you move away from seeking from a deficiency needs, to seeking from abundance needs. You cup runneth over, filled to the brim and overflowing into the world. This is the two great commandments fulfilled. Christ in you.
In Matt. 6:33, the word seek was used from seeking His kingdom, but the word laying down your life is a phrase used only for Jesus Christ for He really laid down His life for us to save us from damnation. As a human, I believe that the right phrase would be ‘surrendering your life.’

There are many poetic ways to describe this. I like to call it the Wellspring of LIfe, drawing from the verse where Jesus says that out of our bellies shall flow living waters. The source of these Waters of Life, is that infinite, eternal Wellspring.

What do you mean how did I do it? I practice meditation, doing exactly the things I've been describing. There are no "magic words" or anything. :) I seek to not seek for myself. I seek to lay myself down to find myself in God. This is what happens in contemplative practice, in no small part. It is not just the mind, but the soul, your being, your will, your desire, you hope, and so forth. All of it. So "just believing" with the mind is rather limiting. You have to "believe" with the heart, and how that manifests itself is in full surrender of everything you are to God, that you "die" in order to live. Just believing, is not that dying. The dying is to truly move into God in all that you are. All I can say is, try it and see. Then all this makes perfect sense
But do you believe that if we practice a kind of thing that is not in accordance with the scripture may lead in a different spiritual manifestation not from God?

Yes. That's right. This is what I am saying. That freedom is a realized reality, a lived and experienced reality, not just something new you believe in that puts you right with God on a book in heaven somewhere that when you die you go to be with Jesus. That's not transformation. That's not Freedom. When we see that we no longer need to live under fear, the bondage of our own lives, trying to find ourselves through conformity to society, religious demands to conform to look like this church or that one as a so-called "true Christian" because of a list of doctrinal beliefs they think make them "right with God", then we are free to let God live in us. But it does not come in full measure by sitting and not engaging yourself with God.
So you’re saying that it is not sufficient for those practicing Christian like Evangelicals, Baptist, and Born-again believers to be with Jesus because they have no freedom, and does not have in full measure of spirituality?

Who said anything about opening to "spirits"? I'll assume that was a typo and you meant Spirit. When I say open to Spirit, again, yes, of course you have Spirit. But that does not mean we allow that in our lives. You can, and we all do, prevent and block the realization of that in our lives. When we open to Spirit, we are allowing Spirit that is in us to be.

To "inherit eternal life", is really to simply allow Spirit, to realize the Eternal in us and in the worlds, at all times. You have eternal life already. To look for it when you die, is to not see that this is eternity. Even from a logical point of view, how does eternity have a beginning time? Eternity does not have a beginning or an end. I'll give you an analogy. Think of it like a Mobius strip. It loops around on itself infinitely. There is no one point on it that you say is the beginning or the end. As we live our lives, we are in a sense walking along this strip, and at any given point we mark out our own beginning and end. But the Eternal is that which does not move in time. It is that which time is written upon, dots we mark on its surface.

So to know eternal life, is to realize that Infinity, that Eternal reality at any one of those points. Now, here, at this moment. Not off in the distance around the next corner, not after you die. The kingdom of God is within you. You are in eternity now, and the eternal is in you. The only thing is us seeing and knowing it, or not seeing and knowing it. And that is the purpose of a contemplative practice; the seeing an knowing of that Eternal Life in you.
If a contemplative is needed for the seeing and knowing that eternal life is in you, did Jesus said that we should believe and have faith in Him? Where does the contemplative here?

Yes, of course. Action is required. When we practice contemplation, we are presenting ourselves a living sacrifice. Exactly everything I have been saying. It is not by conforming to external rules, but by growing from the inside out. Make clean the inside of the cup first, says Jesus. Anyone can conform to religious laws. That's easy. To die to yourself, to lay down your own life itself, is not. Rather, we make that hard. So legalism is the easy way to avoid that, making us think we are 'serving God' when in fact we are avoiding God. It is a form of subtle self-deception. Honestly, it's everything Jesus was pointing out to the religious of his day. Don't make the mistake to believe that just because someone calls themselves a Christian that they are doing anything differently than the Jews of Jesus' day he was pointing this out to. It's the same thing, and the name of the religion is incidental. It's where you go with it that marks out the difference.
One of the many things you come to realize is that that Gift, was there the whole time. It was only us who separated ourselves from it. I could speak to Christ on the cross, but that would get into my own metaphysical, theological thoughts. And the point is not to focus on how I understand this from the perspective I see it. I don't think without the underlying basis I have that it would make sense to you. I'll put it this way, Christ opens God to the world. Through this, we realize God in ourselves. To open to Christ is to open ourselves to God in us. When we taste that Infinite One we realize it was never anywhere but here, everywhere, always and ever. This is my experience. It is also in scritpture. It is spoken of it terms of us not seeing God. For instance David cries, take not your Spirit from me. It is his perspective of his own sense of self-separation from God. It is how we express that in ourselves. It is not however the reality of it.
Can you cite a supporting scriptures for the phrase ‘Christ opens God to the world’?

During the time of Jesus, they are told to receive Christ because of their unbelief that He is the Messiah and the Son of God. But for us, I believed that it is still the same thing. Believe, have faith, repent, obey and confess that He is the Lord are the way to righteousness in Christ.

Because he was ignorant? :) Seriously, many people asked questions that betrayed their lack of understanding of the deeper truths of the kingdom of God. The Pharisees in the previous chapter were asking when the kingdom of God would come, and he corrected their imaginations that it something that can be observed, that it is here, or it is there. He corrected them saying it is here, now, right there, inside you, "within you" (that is the correct translation). So it's the same sort of thing. Jesus corrected this rich ruler who asked about inheriting eternal life that his attachment to his riches here on earth in worldly possessions, prevented him from "entering into the the kingdom of God". Of course it did.

If you have your eye to yourself and your wants and desires, then you are unable to experience that liberation of Spirit into that kingdom of God within you. You are unable to know that Eternal Life within you. This is what the practice of contemplation does. I allows you to enter into this knowledge of the Eternal within you, which is also in the world. You see it in the world, as you see it in yourself.

The Christ said, "I am the Life". If you have Christ in you, then how is that not Eternal Life in you, here and now?
The word eternal life is understood in dictionary as the afterlife and not the life itself. In Christianity, eternal life traditionally refers to continued life after death, as outlined in Christian eschatology. The Apostles' Creed testifies: "I believe... the resurrection of the body, and life everlasting."

Matt.25:46
And these shall go away into eternal punishment: but the righteous into eternal life.

There is no eternal life within us; if we have already eternal life--in us, then why Jesus would offer eternal life for us? See the distinction of Matt.25:46, the eternal punishment and eternal life. They are both eternal, the other is punishment and the other is life.

Matt. 19:29
29. And every one that hath left houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive a hundredfold, and shall inherit eternal life.

We will have an inheritance of eternal life. If we have the eternal life now, why there’s need of inheritance, that would mean there is an afterlife—to gain an inheritance of eternal life.

John 3:16
16. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have eternal life.

Why used the word perish, but have eternal life? I believed that "perish" means death.

Thanks
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
My understanding of the Light of the world is to be an example in Christ-like manner. The Christ-like manner for me is not to become like Jesus Christ as having a divine nature, and Son of God. It is by obeying His teachings and having faith.
But can you truly fulfil the law without it coming from a heart filled with divine love, if it is coming only through your human efforts and desires to be good? I do not believe so. That was Jesus' message in the two great commandments. Again, "I live, yet not I but Christ in me", says Paul. "In me", means you have the divine "In me". Christ = Divine. Again, I think following rules has its values, but it is not truly fulfilled if it does not come from within the heart, and a heart that is transformed by the divine within us. Legalism is born out a desire to follow the rules in order to be saved. Having faith, is not a mental belief. Faith is an action of the heart. And that is an activity of the divine itself in us.

In Prayer, what he taught us—is the one which we must do, and no other additional thing that can be added (man-made invention or practices). When I say that Christ is in me, that would mean--a human follower of Christ, we follow what Jesus taught us.
Man-made practices? All religious practices are man-made. That does not reduce the value of them. If through them you grow in God, then are they not then "of God"? Anything that brings you closer to God, is then therefore useful and should not be rejected based on ignorance and fear. Also, the comment that Christ is "in me" means you follow teachings, doesn't follow. You should just say you follow Jesus then, not speak of it as being an internal life "in me". I follow traffic laws when driving, but the stop sign is not "in me".

In Matt. 6:33, the word seek was used from seeking His kingdom, but the word laying down your life is a phrase used only for Jesus Christ for He really laid down His life for us to save us from damnation. As a human, I believe that the right phrase would be ‘surrendering your life.’
I'm afraid you may not be aware of all the Bible verses I am. "Then Jesus said to His disciples, “If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross and follow Me. “For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it; but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it." This is precisely what I said about laying down the ego, the self-seeking. Paul says, "I die daily". When we lay down our life, as Christ speaks, we find ourselves "in Christ", and "Christ in us". "I live, and yet not I, but Christ in me", says Paul.

What's more than this however, this is not something someone "believes in". This is actually realized through actual experience. That is the key difference that a contemplative practice opens for those who seek to know God in themselves in such a manner. You don't need to do this, but there is great benefit if you do. You don't need to exercise your body, but there is great benefit if you do. You don't need to exercise your mind, but there is great benefit if you do.

All told, I could go through the rest of the points in your response, but I am saying much the same thing and have no desire to have a theological quibble over interpretations of verses. I have been demonstrating however that what I am saying through practice, in fact can be found in scripture, in fact it resonates and shines through clearly to me as a practitioner of meditation. But without the context of having such direct experiences, seeing only from the eyes of something to believe that is still viewed as "up there", out there, in heaven in the sky, and so forth, it is not something someone will be able to see until they step through that Door itself, in very immediate and real ways. That's frankly the way it is for anything people try to explain to those who lack experience.

Why should one be suspicious of something which bears good fruit? An evil tree does not produce good fruit. You ask, "But do you believe that if we practice a kind of thing that is not in accordance with the scripture may lead in a different spiritual manifestation not from God?", to which I respond that it bears the fruits of the Spirit. Bearing good fruit is in "accordance with scripture". Any practice, if it bears good fruit is serving God.

Again, you don't need to do this if you do not want to, but there is benefit to it as has been described that you likely will not realize if you do not, just like if we choose to exercise the body and grown the mind through study. Mediation is spiritual exercise. It is a discipline with real results. There is no requirement for you to do it, but there is benefit if you do. It leads to the lived reality of the fullest measures of that "life more abundantly", which Jesus speaks of.

P.S. Christ opens God to the world: John 1:1-5
 
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lovemuffin

τὸν ἄρτον τοῦ ἔρωτος
The Christ-like manner for me is not to become like Jesus Christ as having a divine nature, and Son of God.

You didn't respond previously, but I'm curious how you read 2 Peter 1, which I cited before?

Can you cite a supporting scriptures for the phrase ‘Christ opens God to the world’?

P.S. Christ opens God to the world: John 1:1-5

If I may, an addendum:

"No one has ever seen God; the only Son, who is at the Father's side, he has made him known." (John 1:18)

"That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we looked upon and have touched with our hands, concerning the word of life— 2 the life was made manifest, and we have seen it, and testify to it and proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and was made manifest to us..." (1 John 1:1-2)

"He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him. And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together. And he is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be preeminent. For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross." (Colossians 1:15-20)
This theme of the invisibility and fundamental unknowability of God, who is nevertheless made known in Christ is very strong in the Johannine writings especially, but appears elsewhere. For example, when the Sermon on the Mount proclaims that the pure in heart are blessed for they shall see God (and sight is a primary metaphor for knowledge), it refers back to the idea that absent that purity one can't see or know God. This thread can be tied then also to the Pauline ideas about having the mind of Christ, or being "in Christ", for example:

"Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life." (Romans 6:3-4)

"For in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ." (Galatians 3:26-27)
"Baptized into Christ" is a very evocative phrase. Quite literally "immersed in Christ", it seems clear again that something more experiential and immediate than a juridical metaphor is intended, in the same way that "metanoia", the Greek word translated as repentance, carries a more profound connotation than just an emotional remorse, but rather a profound and radical "change of mind".

Ι would suggest that understanding this "newness of life" as beginning now does not really take anything away from the idea of "eternal life" in the sense of an afterlife. I might argue otherwise about how eternal life might be understood, and I would note that in the phrase ζωή αἰώνιος, the "life everlasting" you cite from the Apostle's Creed (and used in the N.T.), aionios does not straightforwardly mean "of unending temporal duration" but is difficult to translate and needs to be distinguished from aidios, which actually does mean "eternal" but is not used. But even accepting a modern evangelical understanding of heaven and hell certainly shouldn't preclude recognizing the scriptural basis for a Christian understanding of life in Christ in the present, and an understanding that as a symbol of the fullness of Christian life, "eternal life" also refers to the present experience of that fullness.
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I want to add a few thoughts to the nature of this "suspicion" about contemplative and meditative practices. They are unfounded suspicions not based on any actual data. The practice yields incredible depth of knowing and understanding of the nature of ourselves and the spiritual life as a whole. It empowers those who practice it to experience that liberty of spirit, which leads to a more compassionate heart, wiser understanding, greater patience, sincerity, integrity, deeper experience of the beauty of life, joy, and so forth.

As I cited at the outset of this discussion which began in another thread, Jesus was accused of casting out devils by the power of Satan. I find the suspicions of meditation to be very much of the same sort of nature. Jesus' response was that a house divided cannot stand, and that an evil tree cannot bear good fruit. If meditation, which yields abundances of these fruits of the spirit listed in Galatians 5:22-23, is opening ourselves to evil spirits, or some other such fearful and uninformed notions, then it is in fact a "house divided", the devil is casting out the devil by the devil. :)

The only thing I can imagine why someone might finding a meditative practice to be exposing yourself to "the devil", is that what can and does happen when one opens themselves naked and fully exposed before God and themselves in such a manner, is that that which we have hidden in darkness within ourselves may manifested itself to us with a face of fear, a darkness we wish to hide ourselves from. This is in fact what we have been doing all along by creating a demon out of aspects of ourselves we feel guilt and shame over and wish to shunt into a corner and bury deep away from our awareness. However, when you stand so fully exposed before God, as you do in mediation practice, it is, metaphorically speaking, as the Bible says, the day of judgment where every idle word spoken is given account of, so to speak.

There is quite literally a full exposure of yourself that you get to look at and see - things you don't want to see - things which when you see feel like meeting the devil itself. But what you find instead, when you rest in Grace, is that that demon is washed away by Light. It is the devil of our own creation, the face we create for what we fear in ourselves. All great liberation moments follow an confrontation with the devil. Jesus certainly met the devil in the desert and overcame by turning to God. Once the devil is defeated, so to speak, we experience much greater liberation, freedom from fear. Standing "purified" as it were before God, unashamed, and unafraid.

But there are those who are not ready to face this in themselves, and so some may have happened to dabble with the practice of meditation in some sort of New Age experience seeking frenzy, without proper guidance or grounding, and when they met that face of darkness as they opened the door to themselves, that they slam it hard out of sheer terror and run into some sort of legalistic, totally externalized religious fanaticism, fearing and hating such a practice for what it exposed to them; ever hiding, ever running from themselves into one or another escape. Others dread looking within for similar deep sense of anxiety about confronting themselves in the Light of God, and so make up imaginary reasons why it's "not scriptural", or some such thing which makes no logical sense, nor sense in the light of the fact it results it positive fruits of the Spirit.

It is my belief that some people should not practice this, if they are not mentally stable, or have some other sort of clinical psychological disorder, unless monitored by someone who knows what they are doing. But I also believe that even practicing religion itself without someone to guide them when they are mentally unstable can also cause harm, if nowhere is there to guide them, imagining all manner of fanatical and delusional things. But to those who are ready to deepen the spiritual life, there is singularly no more effective tool available to enhance and accelerate growth than this. It cleans the mind, the heart, and the soul, and quite literally purifies you in the divine fire, like that refiners gold. Not everyone is ready for this, but make no mistake, it is not "of the devil", or some other ill-informed point of view. "A house divided against itself cannot stand".
 
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Yoshua

Well-Known Member
But can you truly fulfil the law without it coming from a heart filled with divine love, if it is coming only through your human efforts and desires to be good? I do not believe so. That was Jesus' message in the two great commandments. Again, "I live, yet not I but Christ in me", says Paul. "In me", means you have the divine "In me". Christ = Divine. Again, I think following rules has its values, but it is not truly fulfilled if it does not come from within the heart, and a heart that is transformed by the divine within us. Legalism is born out a desire to follow the rules in order to be saved. Having faith, is not a mental belief. Faith is an action of the heart. And that is an activity of the divine itself in us.
I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. Gal. 2:20

If we look at the verse that you mentioned, the emphasis is ‘crucified with Christ,’ I don’t think it is Christ in me but Christ lives in me. Christ is living in Paul because as a follower of Christ, he lived by faith because of what Christ has suffered on the cross. A agree with your phrase that having faith is action of the heart. How is the application? That is the question now?

Man-made practices? All religious practices are man-made. That does not reduce the value of them. If through them you grow in God, then are they not then "of God"? Anything that brings you closer to God, is then therefore useful and should not be rejected based on ignorance and fear. Also, the comment that Christ is "in me" means you follow teachings, doesn't follow. You should just say you follow Jesus then, not speak of it as being an internal life "in me". I follow traffic laws when driving, but the stop sign is not "in me".
You say Anything that brings you closer to God, is then therefore useful and should not be rejected based on ignorance and fear.” The word of “anything” is dangerous. A lot of cult churches claimed they been closer to God. The new age spuriously do the same. Anybody can claim they are being closer to God. Where is the defining line of the word “anything”?

I’ve met a so-called Christian who claimed that he is being closer to God because of his experience like what happened in the Pentecost. After that incident, a spirit entity started to communicate with him named as Jesus Christ. This person believes that he is the true Jesus Christ, and the Jesus Christ in the Bible is not the Jesus Christ that he’s been with. He is dependent on what the Jesus Christ has to say. One example is—the Bible is not to be followed, because according to Jesus Christ, it is not infallible Word of God. Again, how will you draw the line here?

I'm afraid you may not be aware of all the Bible verses I am. "Then Jesus said to His disciples, “If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross and follow Me. “For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it; but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it." This is precisely what I said about laying down the ego, the self-seeking. Paul says, "I die daily". When we lay down our life, as Christ speaks, we find ourselves "in Christ", and "Christ in us". "I live, and yet not I, but Christ in me", says Paul.

What's more than this however, this is not something someone "believes in". This is actually realized through actual experience. That is the key difference that a contemplative practice opens for those who seek to know God in themselves in such a manner. You don't need to do this, but there is great benefit if you do. You don't need to exercise your body, but there is great benefit if you do. You don't need to exercise your mind, but there is great benefit if you do.

All told, I could go through the rest of the points in your response, but I am saying much the same thing and have no desire to have a theological quibble over interpretations of verses. I have been demonstrating however that what I am saying through practice, in fact can be found in scripture, in fact it resonates and shines through clearly to me as a practitioner of meditation. But without the context of having such direct experiences, seeing only from the eyes of something to believe that is still viewed as "up there", out there, in heaven in the sky, and so forth, it is not something someone will be able to see until they step through that Door itself, in very immediate and real ways. That's frankly the way it is for anything people try to explain to those who lack experience.
For me, lack of understanding the scripture may lead to erroneous practice. How could a person depend on experience without the knowledge of Scripture? It should be always balance. We cannot dwell much on experience without the knowledge of the scripture. If the scripture told us to test the spirit and warned us for the coming false doctrine, I don’t think this would be ignored.

One example is driving an automobile, a person needs a manual before he could drive properly. He should know where is the clutch, the brake, the switch, the gear…..If I would try to do it without that manual/knowledge, I could not make the automobile run. Same as the Bible, without the spiritual manual, you get lost and may not know what is right and wrong.

Why should one be suspicious of something which bears good fruit? An evil tree does not produce good fruit. You ask, "But do you believe that if we practice a kind of thing that is not in accordance with the scripture may lead in a different spiritual manifestation not from God?", to which I respond that it bears the fruits of the Spirit. Bearing good fruit is in "accordance with scripture". Any practice, if it bears good fruit is serving God.
How will you know what bears good fruit and what is bad? How about the good and evil? What will be the basis? How do you define your word “any” form you statement “Any practice, if it bears good fruit is serving God”?

P.S. Christ opens God to the world: John 1:1-5
How could you explain this chapter for Christ opens God to the world (from v.1-5)?

I want to add a few thoughts to the nature of this "suspicion" about contemplative and meditative practices. They are unfounded suspicions not based on any actual data. The practice yields incredible depth of knowing and understanding of the nature of ourselves and the spiritual life as a whole. It empowers those who practice it to experience that liberty of spirit, which leads to a more compassionate heart, wiser understanding, greater patience, sincerity, integrity, deeper experience of the beauty of life, joy, and so forth.

As I cited at the outset of this discussion which began in another thread, Jesus was accused of casting out devils by the power of Satan. I find the suspicions of meditation to be very much of the same sort of nature. Jesus' response was that a house divided cannot stand, and that an evil tree cannot bear good fruit. If meditation, which yields abundances of these fruits of the spirit listed in Galatians 5:22-23, is opening ourselves to evil spirits, or some other such fearful and uninformed notions, then it is in fact a "house divided", the devil is casting out the devil by the devil. :)

The only thing I can imagine why someone might finding a meditative practice to be exposing yourself to "the devil", is that what can and does happen when one opens themselves naked and fully exposed before God and themselves in such a manner, is that that which we have hidden in darkness within ourselves may manifested itself to us with a face of fear, a darkness we wish to hide ourselves from. This is in fact what we have been doing all along by creating a demon out of aspects of ourselves we feel guilt and shame over and wish to shunt into a corner and bury deep away from our awareness. However, when you stand so fully exposed before God, as you do in mediation practice, it is, metaphorically speaking, as the Bible says, the day of judgment where every idle word spoken is given account of, so to speak.
It is because of this "mystical silence" is accomplished by the same methods used by New Agers to achieve their silence--the mantra and the breath! Contemplative prayer is the repetition of what is referred to as a prayer word or sacred word until one reaches a state where the soul, rather than the mind, contemplates God.

Contemplative prayer teacher and Zen master Willigis Jager brought this out when he postulated:

Do not reflect on the meaning of the word; thinking and reflecting must cease, as all mystical writers insist. Simply "sound" the word silently, letting go of all feelings and thoughts. (lighthouse trails)


Thanks

 

Yoshua

Well-Known Member
You didn't respond previously, but I'm curious how you read 2 Peter 1, which I cited before?

Hi Wellnamed,

Simon Peter encouraged his audience to do the same faith in Jesus Christ just as he had by learning to know Jesus. I believed this is the relationship with Jesus Christ. From that, you may be able to use your spiritual gifts. The message told us to walk in righteousness and continue to grow so we can be useful for the ministry of the Lord Jesus Christ.

"Baptized into Christ" is a very evocative phrase. Quite literally "immersed in Christ", it seems clear again that something more experiential and immediate than a juridical metaphor is intended, in the same way that "metanoia", the Greek word translated as repentance, carries a more profound connotation than just an emotional remorse, but rather a profound and radical "change of mind".
Then, how do you define baptism? Is this an act of faith that you are a follower of Jesus Christ?

Ι would suggest that understanding this "newness of life" as beginning now does not really take anything away from the idea of "eternal life" in the sense of an afterlife. I might argue otherwise about how eternal life might be understood, and I would note that in the phrase ζωή αἰώνιος, the "life everlasting" you cite from the Apostle's Creed (and used in the N.T.), aionios does not straightforwardly mean "of unending temporal duration" but is difficult to translate and needs to be distinguished from aidios, which actually does mean "eternal" but is not used. But even accepting a modern evangelical understanding of heaven and hell certainly shouldn't preclude recognizing the scriptural basis for a Christian understanding of life in Christ in the present, and an understanding that as a symbol of the fullness of Christian life, "eternal life" also refers to the present experience of that fullness.
Therefore, what is “eternal life” for you? Is this an experience only, or the destination or place such as heaven with Jesus Christ?

Thanks
 
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