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Jesus and Paul's teachings, Is there a difference?

wizanda

One Accepts All Religious Texts
Premium Member
The essence of what Paul is saying faith is, is based on the idea jesus came to die for you.... So you'll do good works, as you think you've got a reward.
Paul teaches a dead gospel, which is based on a covenant with jesus's death to do good. :smilingimp:

Yeshua is saying faith in God, will cause you to do good works to glorify your father in heaven....Yet at the end of it all, expect nothing.
Yeshua taught a living gospel, which is based on God being the lord of the living; thus we should give to all, as God gives. :innocent:

Should point out, that unless you remove the gospel of John as false testimony; you will struggle within seeing the differences clearly. ;)
 

Yoshua

Well-Known Member
I did not say Jesus would let you in his kingdom without acknowledging him.

There are two people: one is a mother Theresa-like Hindu and the other a Hitler-like Christian. At the day of Judgement the Hindu and the christian will stand before Jesus Christ. Upon seeing Jesus Christ the Hindu acknowledges that he is God. The Christian already knows that. Now they are on equal footing as far as acknowledging Jesus is concerned. Now Jesus comes to the question of their works. The Christian is found wanting and is sent to hell and the Hindu is found to have lived a Christlike life and is admitted into heaven

Hi Thanda,

Based on your analogy examples, what is a Christlike person? Is he the one who believed and accepted Jesus Christ as His Lord and Saviour (with relationship with Jesus)?
How would you reconcile the good works and being a Christlike?

Thanks
 

Thanda

Well-Known Member
Hi Thanda,

Based on your analogy examples, what is a Christlike person? Is he the one who believed and accepted Jesus Christ as His Lord and Saviour (with relationship with Jesus)?
How would you reconcile the good works and being a Christlike?

Thanks

A Christlike person is a person who does good according to the best of their knowledge. It is written that even Jesus himself grew in wisdom over time as he received "grace for grace". A person cannot be condemned for lacking knowledge. Nor indeed is God interested in people just knowing about him and believing he is there. God is there whether we believe it or not. What God is interested in is that we become more like him.

In John 1:9 it says of Jesus Christ "That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.". So every person who comes into the world has the Light of Christ. And everyone who lives by that light is becoming more christlike even though they may not realise it. But the time will come when everyone realises that that light that they had which helped them know right from wrong and to do good came from Christ. When that day comes the only thing that will be in question is who followed that light and who rejected it.
 

JoStories

Well-Known Member
Hi Jo,

We should study the context well here. It seems that they are contradicted with each other. In Eph. 2:8-10, it was clearly stated that we are not saved by good works instead we are saved by faith. The good works/work here is the result of our faith with God. Christian should be seen with good works caused by faith.

Eph. 2:8-10
8. For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9. not as a result of works, that no one should boast.
10. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

In v.14, What use is it, my brethren, if a man says he has faith, but he has no works? Can that faith save him? James is demonstrating if a man has faith, but has no works, how could faith save him. He used this to illustrate what is faith without works. He did not say--faith cannot saved.

James then used the analogy of a brother or sister without clothing, and need of daily food by giving them the necessary things for their body, then they would be complete. Therefore, James showed us the importance of having faith incorporate with good works. It does not mean that work without faith can saved.

15. If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food,
16. and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and be filled," and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that?
17. Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself

In v. 17, James concluded that faith without works is dead being by itself. That is a dead faith—an unreal faith. He displayed his reasoning by this kind of analogy "You have faith, and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works." James examined the two kinds of faith, the dead faith and the alive faith. This is the reason why in v.19, that even the demons believe in God, and not faith in God. Demon does not trust in God, they only believe that there is God. True faith transforms life.

James used Abraham as an example from what he is implying. In the first place, he should not use Abraham as an example if he is contradicting with Paul’s justification by faith. James is saying that if a person is genuinely saved by faith, there should be good works in a person’s life. He does not teach that works are necessary for salvation.

21. Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?
22. You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected;
23. and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness," and he was called the friend of God.
24. You see that a man is justified by works, and not by faith alone.

James end his statement about faith, and that is what he is trying to convey. In v.24, he is saying that faith is always there as credited to righteousness. The “man is justified by works” means by Abraham’s faith with God, he showed his faith by his works (physical act). People look at the external (works), but God sees our heart (faith). How can we show our faith if it is not accompanied by our works which people usually see?

The Judgment
31. "But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne.
32. "And all the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats;
33. and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left.
34. "Then the King will say to those on His right, `Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
35. `For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in;
36. naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.'
37. "Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, `Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You drink?
38. `And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You?
39. `And when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?'
40. "And the King will answer and say to them, `Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.'
41. "Then He will also say to those on His left, `Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;
42. for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink;
43. I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.'
44. "Then they themselves also will answer, saying, `Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?'
45. "Then He will answer them, saying, `Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.'
46. "And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

2 Thess.3:10-12
10. For even when we were with you, we used to give you this order: if anyone will not work, neither let him eat.
11. For we hear that some among you are leading an undisciplined life, doing no work at all, but acting like busybodies.
12. Now such persons we command and exhort in the Lord Jesus Christ to work in quiet fashion and eat their own bread.

I don’t think that this contradicts with Matthew’s message about mercy by feeding and giving drink to those who are thirsty. In 2 Thess. 3:10-12, God is not favored to a lazy person. In the above messages before v.31, the parables showed that a lazy person cannot bring success to life, instead the talent was given to the one who has ten talents.

Matt.25:26-30
26. "But his master answered and said to him, `You wicked, lazy slave, you knew that I reap where I did not sow, and gather where I scattered no seed.
27. `Then you ought to have put my money in the bank, and on my arrival I would have received my money back with interest.
28. `Therefore take away the talent from him, and give it to the one who has the ten talents.'


The Bible does not teach us to do nothing (as in lazy). It is emphasized in v.11 “For we hear that some among you are leading an undisciplined life, doing no work at all, but acting like busybodies.” From the start of humankind, God told Adam that he shall work to eat.

Gen. 3:18-19
18. "Both thorns and thistles it shall grow for you;

19. By the sweat of your face
You shall eat bread,
Till you return to the ground,
Because from it you were taken;

For you are dust,
And to dust you shall return."


Thanks
Context does not prove your point Yoshua. As Metis pointed out, Paul wrote in a dualistic manner and further, the word pistis is not what one might think it as. Paulian dogma is simply not what Jesus taught. He added many things that Jesus never taught, the idea of saved by faith alone is just one of those. Don't you find it interesting that the majority of the NT is largely attributed to Paul and not Jesus? The Christian church today is largely Paulian and I am left to wonder what God would think of that. There is another thing to consider here as well. Can you discuss the topic merely from your own POV without adding a ton of verses from Paul? The reason I ask this is because people who continually point to this verse or that are not truly thinking for themselves. They are parroting. Say, for example, you read the Sermon of the Mount. You contemplate it, you ruminate over it. And ultimately, if you really study it, you derive your own views of what was said and taught without the need for repeating it. You can speak of it in your own words. This, for me, is what truly studying and understanding any sacred text is all about. I prefer it that way.
 

wizanda

One Accepts All Religious Texts
Premium Member
Is he the one who believed and accepted Jesus Christ as His Lord and Saviour (with relationship with Jesus)?
That is a Pauline statement/question.... Yeshua didn't say to call him lord; yet to only call God lord... Yeshua means God saves; so God is the saviour.
So being Christ like would imply that you're serving God, not serving jesus. ;)
 

JoStories

Well-Known Member
That is a Pauline statement/question.... Yeshua didn't say to call him lord; yet to only call God lord... Yeshua means God saves; so God is the saviour.
So being Christ like would imply that you're serving God, not serving jesus. ;)
Exactly Wizanda. This position is very similar to what The Buddha taught and one that I find particularly edifying as we are to study and understand from our own POV. Not to parrot what someone else may or may not have taught. Only through introspective study and understanding can we come to know and understand God, however one names or defines that concept.
 

JoStories

Well-Known Member
Jesus said "For the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath" Matt 12:8.
Lovely. Now what does that mean TO YOU? TO me, it states that man is the son of God. IOW, me. What is your take? I find it hard to understand people who cannot think for themselves and try to truly understand what was written and said.
 

Thanda

Well-Known Member
Lovely. Now what does that mean TO YOU? TO me, it states that man is the son of God. IOW, me. What is your take? I find it hard to understand people who cannot think for themselves and try to truly understand what was written and said.

I am also sorry about people who can't think for themselves. But I'm not sure what that has to do with this verse. Jesus was talking about himself here as this is how he often referred to himself throughout the gospels.

I will give you another one and we'll see whether you will also try to explain this away:

And if any man say ought unto you, ye shall say, The Lord hath need of them; and straightway he will send them. (Matt 21:3)​
 

wizanda

One Accepts All Religious Texts
Premium Member
Jesus said "For the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath" Matt 12:8.
Mat 6:24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon (idol worship).
Mat 4:10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.
Mat 23:8 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, *even* Christ; and all ye are brethren.
*The word there is ó in Greek, with a dash above it, would mean the opposite of...So even Christ serves God as master....Yet due to a translation error, they've put o, which has then been translated as 'the'...Which would then contradict his other statements elsewhere, of him being the servant, etc.

Don't get me wrong, not saying Yeshua isn't a lord sitting at the right hand of God; yet he taught that there is only one lord we're meant to be serving.....Else we go with all the others, saying 'lord, lord, when the master of the house doesn't know you'. :innocent:
 

Thanda

Well-Known Member
Mat 6:24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon (idol worship).
Mat 4:10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.
Mat 23:8 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, *even* Christ; and all ye are brethren.
*The word there is ó in Greek, with a dash above it, would mean the opposite of...So even Christ serves God as master....Yet due to a translation error, they've put o, which has then been translated as 'the'...Which would then contradict his other statements elsewhere, of him being the servant, etc.

Don't get me wrong, not saying Yeshua isn't a lord sitting at the right hand of God; yet he taught that there is only one lord we're meant to be serving.....Else we go with all the others, saying 'lord, lord, when the master of the house doesn't know you'. :innocent:

As I noted to JoStories above he considered himself a Lord and that is what he called himself. That said just because he is a Lord it does not mean there was not someone above him who he answered to. That is God the Father. This is like a CEO in the company. He has authority because he was appointed by the board. He answers to the board and carries out the mandate the shareholders have given him through the board. However his authority is real. And he has power to hire and fire. So he cannot be ignored.

Likewise Jesus has Authority given to him by his Father. Therefore a person seeking salvation cannot sidestep him. He has power to save and destroy.
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Mat 6:24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon (idol worship).
Many more people believe mammon means money than can admit its real meaning (idol worship). Even Bibles say "money" so I am relieved to know someone else knows it doesn't only mean money. I think it is easy to refrain from making money master but very hard to make nothing but the truth master.
 

wizanda

One Accepts All Religious Texts
Premium Member
As I noted to JoStories above he considered himself a Lord and that is what he called himself.
He considered himself a servant, and others called him lord.
Therefore a person seeking salvation cannot sidestep him.
Like he said, why call him lord if you don't listen to him....So if you're following Paul, John or Simon the stone (petros), then clearly you're not listening carefully enough.

Also that is a massive debatable topic, people could follow what Yeshua was teaching; yet have never read the Bible or even know about him.... Salvation is required Biblically because of Biblical law; not God's law.
So you can still get into heaven by your faith and works; the 'believing in jesus' crap comes from all the Pharisees i just mentioned. :innocent:
Many more people believe mammon means money than can admit its real meaning (idol worship).
To be precise, mammon means 'in that which you have faith/trust'. ;)
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I know! I have found just one person (you) who sides with me there. I have posted about its meaning. They love their Bible traditions more than learning. I think that the loving of Bible tradition might be considered mammon.
You can't be serving tradition AND be serving The Living God.

HELPS Word-studies
3126 mammōnás – a Semitic term for "the treasure a person trusts in" (J. Thayer) who is transliterated as "mammon."

[3126 (mammōnás) is probably an Aramaic term, related to the Hebrew term̓aman ("to trust," J. Thayer).]

Strong's Greek: 3126. μαμμωνᾶς (mamónas) -- riches

I think opinion can be considered mammon. "I trust in my own opinion and no one can shake it. I am certain that God is pleased with my opinion" Is that not MAMMON?
 
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Thanda

Well-Known Member
Like he said, why call him lord if you don't listen to him....So if you're following Paul, John or Simon the stone (petros), then clearly you're not listening carefully enough.

Also that is a massive debatable topic, people could follow what Yeshua was teaching; yet have never read the Bible or even know about him.... Salvation is required Biblically because of Biblical law; not God's law.
So you can still get into heaven by your faith and works; the 'believing in jesus' crap comes from all the Pharisees i just mentioned.

"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." John 14:6

Jesus clearly taught that he no one could come to God except through him.

"And if any man say ought unto you, ye shall say, The Lord hath need of them; and straightway he will send them." Matt 21:3

"Ye call me Master and Lord: and ye say well; for so I am." John 13:13

Jesus was not only called by others, he also called himself Lord. And when a man called him good he was very quick to ask him why he called him good. Why did he not ask anyone why they called him Lord?

Look, I don't mind if you believe differently about Jesus than I do. I just done like you pretending what you believe is what is in the Bible.

Jesus is Lord. That he is a servant also is not a contradiction. For righteous leaders always serve. Is God also not our servant? Does he not make sure we have a Sun and rain in season? Do he not assist us to gain salvation. Is God not the greatest servant in the universe?
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." John 14:6

Jesus clearly taught that he no one could come to God except through him.

"And if any man say ought unto you, ye shall say, The Lord hath need of them; and straightway he will send them." Matt 21:3

"Ye call me Master and Lord: and ye say well; for so I am." John 13:13

Jesus was not only called by others, he also called himself Lord. And when a man called him good he was very quick to ask him why he called him good. Why did he not ask anyone why they called him Lord?

Look, I don't mind if you believe differently about Jesus than I do. I just done like you pretending what you believe is what is in the Bible.

Jesus is Lord. That he is a servant also is not a contradiction. For righteous leaders always serve. Is God also not our servant? Does he not make sure we have a Sun and rain in season? Do he not assist us to gain salvation. Is God not the greatest servant in the universe?
But we should always be very cautious about believing every thing we may read in scriptures-- any scriptures. If Jesus was walking around claiming or implying he was God, I doubt that he would have had any following amongst Jews at all because such a thought runs so counter to what we have long believed.

Instead, what I think more likely happened is that the apostles and their immediate appointees believe that Jesus was of God, but not God. After the church gradually became more gentile-run, that line became blurred, eventually switching over to Jesus being God.
 

Thanda

Well-Known Member
But we should always be very cautious about believing every thing we may read in scriptures-- any scriptures. If Jesus was walking around claiming or implying he was God, I doubt that he would have had any following amongst Jews at all because such a thought runs so counter to what we have long believed.

Instead, what I think more likely happened is that the apostles and their immediate appointees believe that Jesus was of God, but not God. After the church gradually became more gentile-run, that line became blurred, eventually switching over to Jesus being God.

I have no problem agreeing with you that not everything that is written in the scriptures is accurate. But it is wrong for a person like wizanda to pretend this was not actually written in the scriptures. If he believes different to what the scriptures say because he has received a different revelation he should just say so.

For my part I believe Jesus is the Jehovah of the OLD testament and that he is God's son. I believe He has given to him divine authority from the Father by which he is able to act in every way as God himself.

And example of what I am saying is the angel who told Abraham to stop sacrificing Isaac:

12 And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.

Note how if you read only this verse you would be tempted to think it was God himself speaking. The angel had authority from God to speak as he would speak.

Likewise Jehovah who is Jesus Christ has all authority from God to speak and do as though he were God himself. And indeed he himself is a God: being a perfect being and in perfect likeness to the Father in thought word and action.
 

Simplelogic

Well-Known Member
But we should always be very cautious about believing every thing we may read in scriptures-- any scriptures. If Jesus was walking around claiming or implying he was God, I doubt that he would have had any following amongst Jews at all because such a thought runs so counter to what we have long believed.

Instead, what I think more likely happened is that the apostles and their immediate appointees believe that Jesus was of God, but not God. After the church gradually became more gentile-run, that line became blurred, eventually switching over to Jesus being God.
There is no evidence that any of the twelve apostles thought Jesus was God. Only Paul makes this correlation.
 

wizanda

One Accepts All Religious Texts
Premium Member
Jesus clearly taught that he no one could come to God except through him.
The gospel of John is made up.
"And if any man say ought unto you, ye shall say, The Lord hath need of them; and straightway he will send them." Matt 21:3
That could mean God wanted the colt.
And when a man called him good he was very quick to ask him why he called him good. Why did he not ask anyone why they called him Lord?
The person called him a teacher.
I just done like you pretending what you believe is what is in the Bible.
I'll substantiate it with evidence from the Bible, else admit I'm wrong.
Is God not the greatest servant in the universe?
Nope God is the ruler.... If you say, "i want it to rain or be sunny today", do you get it? If you say, "i want salvation", does God give it? So nope, we're servants to God, same as Yeshua was a servant of God's.
Mat 12:50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.
So Yeshua is an equal, or a brother in the work of the most high. :innocent:
There is no evidence that any of the twelve apostles thought Jesus was God. Only Paul makes this correlation.
Plus the made up gospel of John hints at it all the way through. ;)
 
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