Salvation in Christ

Carlita said:

Spiritual sense?
If my friend saved me spiritually, can I just walk out of the water? Or does spiritual more touch the heart and salvation is not just a heart thing but Body And Soul?
Following Jesus teachings while drowning wont do anything without his hand to help. Cant read a book while drowning.
Explain how one can be saved spiritually without the effort of the person being saved (no study,devotion,etc). Salvation doesn't come from us? If that is true, which I disagree, how can one be saved alone?

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URAVIP2ME said:

At this point in history we are Not saved physically ( we still die ).
Although we are a physical creation we can try to display the spiritually healthy saving qualities or the attributes of Galatians 5:22-23
Jesus gave a ' spiritual work ' to do - Acts of the Apostles 1:8; Matthew 24:14 - meaning we are to spread the good news of God's kingdom government on an international scale as the solution to mankind's problems.
We are nearing the soon coming ' time of separation' - Matthew 25:31-32 - and those favorably judged as humble sheep-like ones, or righteous ones, can remain ' saved ' physically alive on earth, saved by living through the coming great tribulation of Revelation 7:14.
Then, Jesus, as Prince of Peace, will usher in global Peace on Earth among men of goodwill.
By Jesus walking on water - Mark 4:39- Mark 6:49 - was showing us that Jesus had control over weather phenomenon.
Also, by Jesus feeding people, curing sick people, and resurrecting people back to healthy physical life on earth, was a small preview or coming attraction for us of what Jesus will be doing on a grand global scale during his coming 1,000-year governmental rulership over earth when on earth even ' enemy death ' will be brought to nothing - 1 Corinthians 15:26

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Carlita said:

Thank you. Kinda doesn't answer my question. The verses are throwing it off. I trust what you write comes from scripture; so, it's easier to read without the links.
How are you (not the people in the Bible) saved in your heart?
Do you put yourself in Jesus' shoes mentally and watch or visualize your sins leaving you?
Does the Bible's words (not Word) somehow cleans you spiritually? If so, how?
Is it by action?
When you follow Christ literally, physically, you are saved by the results your actions make. Thus, you attribute those results coming from Christ because you read what Christ told you to do...so whatever happened from that action comes from Christ; thereby you're saved?

Jesus gave a ' spiritual work ' to do - Acts of the Apostles 1:8; Matthew 24:14 - meaning we are to spread the good news of God's kingdom government on an international scale as the solution to mankind's problems.​

When you physically spread the good news, that action save you? Does that action somehow give you a spiritual feeling that you are saved?
Also, off topic question. I am curious, do all Christians talk in metaphors and allegory when explaining a simple concept, explanation, or testimony?
For example:

Then, Jesus, as Prince of Peace, will usher in global Peace on Earth among men of goodwill.
By Jesus walking on water - Mark 4:39- Mark 6:49 - was showing us that Jesus had control over weather phenomenon.​

Maybe saying Jesus will create peace on earth and control the weather. (Weird verses, actually)

Also, by Jesus feeding people, curing sick people, and resurrecting people back to healthy physical life on earth, was a small preview or coming attraction for us of what Jesus will be doing on a grand global scale during his coming 1,000-year governmental rulership over earth when on earth even ' enemy death ' will be brought to nothing - 1 Corinthians 15:26​

Em. Maybe something simple... instead of "enemy of death" can we just say Satan? Or, is that common terminology Christians should use when speaking about the Bible?
Kinda makes it hard to decipher ones point through the poetic talk and terms like "enemy of death" and "Prince of Peace" and so forth. Maybe its the same as a Muslim using "Peace Be Upon Him" after the name of Allah and His prophets, I don't know. Wonder if that make a good thread.

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JoStories said:

First of all, what does one need saving from? And what is this 'saving'?




I believe that God (call this whatever you want, it;s just a word for the concept) wants us to be enlightened, to strive to become one with the idea of God. We make mistakes, we learn, we live through myriad lifetimes in order to do this learning. In this life, my lessons are about loss. Loss so severe as to cripple the soul. Maybe next time it will be something else. And who is this Jesus that I must acknowledge him to be able to access God? I don;t need an intermediary. My goal is to live a good life, one free of moral wrongdoing. I do find wisdom in the teachings of Christ but I don't believe he was anything more than someone like The Buddha or Mohammed.

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URAVIP2ME said:

'Saved' is because of the action of Jesus' ransom sacrifice.
If we believe in Jesus' (mind and heart ) then we will put into action to tell people about God's kingdom being a read kingdom government coming to govern over earth. That government in the hands of Christ Jesus will end up governing the whole earth.
So, if it were Not for Jesus' ransom, then to tell others would be meaningless.
Besides ' enemy death ', Satan to will be destroyed by Jesus. <- That is according to Hebrews 2:14 B.
Isaiah wrote death would be swallowed up forever. When something is swallowed up it is gone for good.
So, death on earth will become a thing of the past. <- That is according to Isaiah 25:8

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• If I became Christian, how does Jesus save me?
• Does He metaphorically reach out His hand and touch my shoulder and I am saved?
• Does He evolve in front of me literally and say "I am here" and automatically I feel like my sins are some how gone?
• Is it a feeling that somehow reading the Bible and spreading it literally not spiritually (Not all feelings are facts) some how saved me?

• Is THIS how Christians are saved by Jesus: by applying Jesus' wisdom to your lives?

• Is THIS how Christians are saved by Jesus, by maturing in wisdom (or faith, rather), like Christ did with His Father?

• Is salvation an action?
• Is salvation knowledge?

Carlita said:

Don't think you're understanding my question.
"The action of Jesus who is a ransom sacrifice." I get that. That is what He did not How He did so.
Questions:

• If I became Christian, how does Jesus save me?
• Does He metaphorically reach out His hand and touch my shoulder and I am saved?
• Does He evolve in front of me literally and say "I am here" and automatically I feel like my sins are some how gone?
• Is it a feeling that somehow reading the Bible and spreading it literally not spiritually (Not all feelings are facts) some how saved me?

Caps for emphasis not yelling

So, as a Fact, He not only spiritually saved you,
He physically saved you, and
He mentally saved you.

He saved ALL of you.

I get the mental (maybe you impersonate Jesus into yourself or yourself into Jesus and believe you are saved; no problem with that)

I get the spiritual to an extent (maybe the gut feeling and wholeness you feel from the knowledge and mental visualization help you make the imprint gradually that you are saved; no problem with that)

I do not get the physical salvation.

Since I don't, that kinda messes up the other two.

Important: If you are not saved physically, your spirit and your mind do not exist. It all goes together. (In scientific [not my belief] terms, if I die, that's it. My spirit doesn't live beyond death. Once my body and mind are gone, that's it.)

__________________

Here is an example of salvation:

I am saved by the Buddha through His teachings or Sutras.
Maybe you are wondering how so (as I do likewise with your statement)?

(I'll express it like Christian's do; my own words)

Well, The Lord Buddha, says if we look in ourselves, our Buddha-nature, we find the answers to our inner turmoil. The six demons and hungry ghosts will not torment us because we will continue onto the next state of existence. Our minds are Wisdom. We will enter Nirvana and I say to you disciples, you too, will become like me, as Buddhas. We all can be saved. I will not tell you how.​

(This is how He actually spoke in the Lotus Sutra)

Translation:

He, the Buddha, says that if we look at ourselves for answers to suffering, cause, and way from it, we are saved. We enter nirvana (a pure state of mind not heaven) and we (in Theravada) become Buddhas or Mahayana realize we already Are Buddhas.​

Knowing this wisdom and living it, I am saved.

Point: If you comment, please keep it simple.

The Buddha does not claim to physically save me. He cannot. He died over a thousands of years ago before Christ. Regardless if He died on the cross or drowned in the river, the time difference makes it impossible for Him to save me from anything. WE save ourselves by the Wisdom of the Buddha. He cannot save us. He has passed on. He comes back to hear the Law as spirit but not physically.

We can be, quote on quote, saved by the Buddha spiritually: By applying the Buddha's Wisdom to our lives.

We can be saved by the Buddha mentally, when we do apply it to our lives, our mentality will mature to the wisdom of all-knowledge of the Buddha.

Everything goes down hill when we say the Buddha saves us physically. He cannot.

So, Buddhist recognize this and we don't claim salvation as literal (He didn't come from time warp and save us from what He said we are to save ourselves from) Why don't Christians understand this?

Questions: (Regarding above questions related to my Buddha example)

• Is THIS how Christians are saved by Jesus: by applying Jesus' wisdom to your lives?

• Is THIS how Christians are saved by Jesus, by maturing in wisdom (or faith, rather), like Christ did with His Father?

• Is salvation an action?
• Is salvation knowledge?

I know it has to do with faith; but faith does not save. Believe does not. Actual salvation depends on action and knowing how to act, we need knowledge.

___________________________

SOME Christians are saying they are saved without these two things.

They (some) Christians say are not saved by practice.

(They spit on the Catholic Church for their heart filled devotion/practice. They throw away any religion as if it tears them to pieces for following Christ as a congregation. They become individuals and claim they are the Body of Christ.)

They are not saved by knowledge. I know a lot about Christ. I am not saved. I know a lot about paganism. Paganism does not claim salvation but interrelation with the earth. Buddha does not physically save you. Yet, He too offered salvation not from Him but from our Wisdom within.

Question:

Everything starts with Us. How can Christians not see this?

Thank you for reading all this. It's actually rambling as well. I separated the questions so you don't have to read it all if you don't want.

Click to expand...

Carlita said:

Don't think you're understanding my question.

"The action of Jesus who is a ransom sacrifice." I get that. That is what He did not How He did so.

Questions:

• If I became Christian, how does Jesus save me?
• Does He metaphorically reach out His hand and touch my shoulder and I am saved?
• Does He evolve in front of me literally and say "I am here" and automatically I feel like my sins are some how gone?
• Is it a feeling that somehow reading the Bible and spreading it literally not spiritually (Not all feelings are facts) some how saved me?

Points: Remember, Christians say Jesus saved them as a FACT.
Caps for emphasis not yelling

So, as a Fact, He not only spiritually saved you,
He physically saved you, and
He mentally saved you.

He saved ALL of you.

I get the mental (maybe you impersonate Jesus into yourself or yourself into Jesus and believe you are saved; no problem with that)

I get the spiritual to an extent (maybe the gut feeling and wholeness you feel from the knowledge and mental visualization help you make the imprint gradually that you are saved; no problem with that)

I do not get the physical salvation.

Since I don't, that kinda messes up the other two.

Important: If you are not saved physically, your spirit and your mind do not exist. It all goes together. (In scientific [not my belief] terms, if I die, that's it. My spirit doesn't live beyond death. Once my body and mind are gone, that's it.)

__________________

Here is an example of salvation:

I am saved by the Buddha through His teachings or Sutras.
Maybe you are wondering how so (as I do likewise with your statement)?

(I'll express it like Christian's do; my own words)

Well, The Lord Buddha, says if we look in ourselves, our Buddha-nature, we find the answers to our inner turmoil. The six demons and hungry ghosts will not torment us because we will continue onto the next state of existence. Our minds are Wisdom. We will enter Nirvana and I say to you disciples, you too, will become like me, as Buddhas. We all can be saved. I will not tell you how.​

(This is how He actually spoke in the Lotus Sutra)

Translation:

He, the Buddha, says that if we look at ourselves for answers to suffering, cause, and way from it, we are saved. We enter nirvana (a pure state of mind not heaven) and we (in Theravada) become Buddhas or Mahayana realize we already Are Buddhas.​

Knowing this wisdom and living it, I am saved.

Point: If you comment, please keep it simple.

The Buddha does not claim to physically save me. He cannot. He died over a thousands of years ago before Christ. Regardless if He died on the cross or drowned in the river, the time difference makes it impossible for Him to save me from anything. WE save ourselves by the Wisdom of the Buddha. He cannot save us. He has passed on. He comes back to hear the Law as spirit but not physically.

We can be, quote on quote, saved by the Buddha spiritually: By applying the Buddha's Wisdom to our lives.

We can be saved by the Buddha mentally, when we do apply it to our lives, our mentality will mature to the wisdom of all-knowledge of the Buddha.

Everything goes down hill when we say the Buddha saves us physically. He cannot.

So, Buddhist recognize this and we don't claim salvation as literal (He didn't come from time warp and save us from what He said we are to save ourselves from) Why don't Christians understand this?

Questions: (Regarding above questions related to my Buddha example)

• Is THIS how Christians are saved by Jesus: by applying Jesus' wisdom to your lives?

• Is THIS how Christians are saved by Jesus, by maturing in wisdom (or faith, rather), like Christ did with His Father?

• Is salvation an action?
• Is salvation knowledge?

I know it has to do with faith; but faith does not save. Believe does not. Actual salvation depends on action and knowing how to act, we need knowledge.

___________________________

SOME Christians are saying they are saved without these two things.

They (some) Christians say are not saved by practice.

(They spit on the Catholic Church for their heart filled devotion/practice. They throw away any religion as if it tears them to pieces for following Christ as a congregation. They become individuals and claim they are the Body of Christ.)

They are not saved by knowledge. I know a lot about Christ. I am not saved. I know a lot about paganism. Paganism does not claim salvation but interrelation with the earth. Buddha does not physically save you. Yet, He too offered salvation not from Him but from our Wisdom within.

Question:

Everything starts with Us. How can Christians not see this?

Thank you for reading all this. It's actually rambling as well. I separated the questions so you don't have to read it all if you don't want.

Click to expand...

URAVIP2ME said:

How does Jesus save -> Adam started out sinless. Adam's leanings were upright. Adam chose to use his free-will choices to break God's law. Jesus started out sinless. Jesus' leanings were upright. Jesus chose to use his free-will choices to keep God's law.

At Romans 5:18, so to speak, God is a court Judge who has reached a decision on the charges of unrighteousness.
We as unrighteous are acquitted on the basis of righteous Jesus. Adam was faithless in least. Jesus was faithful in much.
Jesus' sinless life was offered by him to be a ransom for our release from sin and death. Romans 5:6-8
We can Not resurrect oneself or another, so we need someone who can resurrect us. Jesus now can and will - Revelation 1:18

The one who endures to the end is saved <- Matthew 24:13.
We either endure faithful to our death, or we are found faithful at the soon coming time of separation of Matthew 25:31-32
Salvation ( rescue / deliverance ) is Not a feeling. It is being saved, rescued, delivered from sin with its sickness and death.

Like Jesus, at death only some are resurrected as spirit persons - Revelation 20:6
The majority of mankind will be brought back to healthy physical life on earth during Jesus' coming rulership over earth.
The ' sheep ' of Matthew 25 are going to be saved alive on earth through the coming great tribulation - Revelation 7:14
They have the saving spiritual qualities as listed at Galatians 5:22-23.

Perhaps, if you wish, we could just break things down to one point at a time.

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URAVIP2ME said:

According to Scripture we need saving, or being saved from 'enemy death' --------------------- 1 Corinthians 1:26; Isaiah 25:8
As to ' what is this saving ' it is being saved from everlasting death because of Jesus' ransom for us. ------- Matthew 20:28
We need to repent so as Not to perish ( be destroyed ) -------------------------------------------------------------- 2 Peter 3:9; Psalms 92:7

We are nearing a coming ' time of separation ' on earth when living people on earth can be favorably judged as being righteous and can be saved alive to continue living on earth right into the time when Jesus as King (Ruler ) of God's governmental kingdom will govern over all of the earth. Jesus will save righteous mankind from sickness and death ..Revelation 22:2; Revelation 21:4-5

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Carlita said:

Don't think you're understanding my question.

"The action of Jesus who is a ransom sacrifice." I get that. That is what He did not How He did so.

Questions:

• If I became Christian, how does Jesus save me?
• Does He metaphorically reach out His hand and touch my shoulder and I am saved?
• Does He evolve in front of me literally and say "I am here" and automatically I feel like my sins are some how gone?
• Is it a feeling that somehow reading the Bible and spreading it literally not spiritually (Not all feelings are facts) some how saved me?

Points: Remember, Christians say Jesus saved them as a FACT.
Caps for emphasis not yelling

So, as a Fact, He not only spiritually saved you,
He physically saved you, and
He mentally saved you.

He saved ALL of you.

I get the mental (maybe you impersonate Jesus into yourself or yourself into Jesus and believe you are saved; no problem with that)

I get the spiritual to an extent (maybe the gut feeling and wholeness you feel from the knowledge and mental visualization help you make the imprint gradually that you are saved; no problem with that)

I do not get the physical salvation.

Since I don't, that kinda messes up the other two.

Important: If you are not saved physically, your spirit and your mind do not exist. It all goes together. (In scientific [not my belief] terms, if I die, that's it. My spirit doesn't live beyond death. Once my body and mind are gone, that's it.)

__________________

Here is an example of salvation:

I am saved by the Buddha through His teachings or Sutras.
Maybe you are wondering how so (as I do likewise with your statement)?

(I'll express it like Christian's do; my own words)

Well, The Lord Buddha, says if we look in ourselves, our Buddha-nature, we find the answers to our inner turmoil. The six demons and hungry ghosts will not torment us because we will continue onto the next state of existence. Our minds are Wisdom. We will enter Nirvana and I say to you disciples, you too, will become like me, as Buddhas. We all can be saved. I will not tell you how.​

(This is how He actually spoke in the Lotus Sutra)

Translation:

He, the Buddha, says that if we look at ourselves for answers to suffering, cause, and way from it, we are saved. We enter nirvana (a pure state of mind not heaven) and we (in Theravada) become Buddhas or Mahayana realize we already Are Buddhas.​

Knowing this wisdom and living it, I am saved.

Point: If you comment, please keep it simple.

The Buddha does not claim to physically save me. He cannot. He died over a thousands of years ago before Christ. Regardless if He died on the cross or drowned in the river, the time difference makes it impossible for Him to save me from anything. WE save ourselves by the Wisdom of the Buddha. He cannot save us. He has passed on. He comes back to hear the Law as spirit but not physically.

We can be, quote on quote, saved by the Buddha spiritually: By applying the Buddha's Wisdom to our lives.

We can be saved by the Buddha mentally, when we do apply it to our lives, our mentality will mature to the wisdom of all-knowledge of the Buddha.

Everything goes down hill when we say the Buddha saves us physically. He cannot.

So, Buddhist recognize this and we don't claim salvation as literal (He didn't come from time warp and save us from what He said we are to save ourselves from) Why don't Christians understand this?

Questions: (Regarding above questions related to my Buddha example)

• Is THIS how Christians are saved by Jesus: by applying Jesus' wisdom to your lives?

• Is THIS how Christians are saved by Jesus, by maturing in wisdom (or faith, rather), like Christ did with His Father?

• Is salvation an action?
• Is salvation knowledge?

I know it has to do with faith; but faith does not save. Believe does not. Actual salvation depends on action and knowing how to act, we need knowledge.

___________________________

SOME Christians are saying they are saved without these two things.

They (some) Christians say are not saved by practice.

(They spit on the Catholic Church for their heart filled devotion/practice. They throw away any religion as if it tears them to pieces for following Christ as a congregation. They become individuals and claim they are the Body of Christ.)

They are not saved by knowledge. I know a lot about Christ. I am not saved. I know a lot about paganism. Paganism does not claim salvation but interrelation with the earth. Buddha does not physically save you. Yet, He too offered salvation not from Him but from our Wisdom within.

Question:

Everything starts with Us. How can Christians not see this?

Thank you for reading all this. It's actually rambling as well. I separated the questions so you don't have to read it all if you don't want.

Click to expand...

JoStories said:

A most excellent post Carlita but I would say, for me, that the idea of Jesus saving me does not save me spiritually or mentally, and I would agree about the physical.. Of course, I am Buddhist so your example rings very true for me. This idea of me needing to be 'saved' has never made any sense to me at all. I follow the path of the Buddha, and that requires me to live a good and moral life, as you have shown to some degree. What else does one really need here?

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Carlita said:

Same. I follow the path of the Buddha informally. His teachings make so much sense that to even call it a faith is making something special out of normal life. At one time I wanted to be initiated in a Buddhist lineage. It is hard to find one here. Especially Zen one since their VA monestary is waay up on the mountains.

There is nothing to be saved from. As Buddhas, salvation, if one likes, is already within. No one is needed for discovering ourselves. Its an insiders job.

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JoStories said:

I do thank you but I was asking for your own opinion on the matter. I understand what the Bible says, having read it cover to cover several times and done multiple papers on it. What I was asking is that if one lives a good moral life, but doesn't follow your faith, what is there that they need to be saved from? From choosing to believe in...oh, let's say Allah, or Cernunos or Diana or Surya or any of the myriad other Gods that the world worships. If that person has lived this good and moral life, what is there to be saved from? And why must one need to have this if one follows a religion that worships God, just not the one of the Bible.

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JoStories said:

Exactly. I see nothing to be saved from unless one had lived a very immoral life and even that can be a part of the journey to enlightenment as we must all experience those lessons that lead us to that place.

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JoStories said:

This idea of me needing to be 'saved' has never made any sense to me at all. I follow the path of the Buddha, and that requires me to live a good and moral life, as you have shown to some degree. What else does one really need here?

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URAVIP2ME said:

What does anyone at anytime in history need to be saved from ?
People have even gone to great expenses to prolong life in order to be ' saved ' from sickness, dying and death.
We ALL need to be saved, delivered, rescued from sickness and death.
According to Scripture God gave Jesus the power of the resurrection.
So, during Jesus coming 1,000-year governmental rulership the majority of mankind will be restored back to healthy life on earth because Jesus will resurrect people to healthy physical life on earth as Jesus did on a small scale while he was on earth in the first century.

So, a dead person who lived a moral or righteous life can be part of the resurrection of the righteous, a person who was unrighteous before death can also have a resurrection as part of the unrighteous as you know from your reading of Acts of the Apostles 24:15.

So, my opinion is that the majority of mankind will have a healthy physical resurrection on earth with the same original opportunity that was offered to father Adam before his downfall to live forever on earth in a perfectly healthy body being of sound mind and heart.

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URAVIP2ME said:

Can't disagree that an immoral person needs to be ' saved, rescued, delivered ' and that would be from an immoral life style.
Repentance leads to enlightenment.
If a person, after being forewarned, still follows an immoral or wicked course they could find themselves being classed as one to the haughty goat-like people during the soon coming ' time of separation ' taking place on earth as mentioned at Matthew 25:31-32,40

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URAVIP2ME said:

' really need here ' -> would be to continue to be here on earth in sound physical health lasting forever.
Isaiah 35:1-10 describes the coming future time on earth when people can have perfect physical health on earth.
The righteous man Job looked forward to that time of Job 33:25 when he would be released from the aging process.
Adam was Not put here for a short visit, but as long as being obedient ( good and moral ) Adam could stay here on earth forever.
Since we can Not resurrect oneself or another then we need someone who can restore our life by resurrecting us.
Then, during Jesus' coming millennium-long day of governing over earth, Jesus can and will bring back to life on earth the majority of people who have ever lived since Abel.

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URAVIP2ME said:

So, during Jesus coming 1,000-year governmental rulership the majority of mankind will be restored back to healthy life on earth because Jesus will resurrect people to healthy physical life on earth as Jesus did on a small scale while he was on earth in the first century.

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LASTINGLIGHT said:

Can you tell me where in the Bible Jesus says this?

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