People "see" visions.
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Christians Only: Does God the Father have a physical form like that of a human?
- Thread starter Katzpur
- Start date
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
We are obviously talking right past each other. The scriptures say that Stephen "saw" Jesus Christ and God the Father. I'm really not sure what you're saying happened instead.
Nada
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It never says Stephen saw God the Father.It says he saw the glory of God.
Acts 7:55 But Stephen, full of the Holy Spirit, looked up to heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God.
Hebrews 1:3 The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven.
2 Chronicles 7:1 When Solomon finished praying, fire came down from heaven and consumed the burnt offering and the sacrifices, and the glory of the LORD filled the temple.
John 1:18 No one has ever seen God. The One and Only Son-- the One who is at the Father's side-- He has revealed Him.
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People see visions. Ink was probably scarce at the time of scripture's writing. YOU say Stephen could not have seen a vision because it isn't written "a vision of". But it is also not written that he saw the "physical form of". OK?
Nada
#
Yes,this was a vision.Stephen was not taken to heaven.He was there in front of everyone,on earth, when he had a vision, filled with holy spirit.Some versions use the word gazed.
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
I didn't say he was taken to heaven, did I? I said he saw the heavens opened and that he saw Jesus Christ standing at the right hand of God. One thing cannot be at the right hand of something else, unless the second thing has a discernable form. It's simply impossible.
I'm not sure what it is you're trying to get at. Of course the glory of the Lord could fill the temple. That doesn't change what I'm saying one single solitary bit. God's glory, power, knowledge and authority are everywhere.
Except for the people whose experiences you choose to ignore.
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
We obviously disagree, and yes, that's certainly okay. As far as I'm concerned, if it says that he saw "the son of man standing on the right hand of God," that's what he saw. If you "saw" me, I hope you'd assume I was real.
I really don't have any desire to keep rehashing it when we're never going to agree. I hope that's okay with you.
I maintain the traditional doctrine of the Church Fathers that God is pure spirit, without form and utterly incomprehensible. When we speak of God, some level of anthropomorphism is unavoidable, and indeed anthropomorphism is a common poetic device in Scripture. It doesn't mean God literally has eyes, arms and feathered wings.
We are made in the image of God in that we have rational and immortal souls, not that God physically resembles humans. The Word became flesh, but even in the case of the Son, his body is a condition of the incarnation and not an ontological aspect of his being as God; which is one with the Father and therefore spirit.
We are made in the image of God in that we have rational and immortal souls, not that God physically resembles humans. The Word became flesh, but even in the case of the Son, his body is a condition of the incarnation and not an ontological aspect of his being as God; which is one with the Father and therefore spirit.
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Dreams have "form". The characters in dreams do not have a physical, tangible body. An image has form but no substance. Seeing as in a dream is something that Stephen experienced.
Nada
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No you did not.I never said you did.I said he was on earth, and not taken to heaven,insinuating that it is a vision.He never saw God.No one has.Only Jesus.
John 1:18 is very clear.18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared [him].
Stephen was a man.
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Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
So were Jacob and Moses.
It's amazing how, when you zero in on one passages of scripture and determine that it is 100% factual, has been translated perfectly and couldn't possibly have any conditions attached to it, you have to explain away all of the other passages that all of a sudden don't seem to fit in with your conception of how things are.
So if no man has seen God at any time, Jacob apparently was lying when he said that he had (in Genesis 32:30):
And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.
Moses evidently didn't really see God either, even though it says, in Exodus 33:11, that he did:
And the LORD spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend.
And we have to disregard Jesus' own words when He said that the pure in heart shall see God (Matthew 5:8) and that the angels in heaven already do (Matthew 18:10):
Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.
Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven.
Matthew 5:8
Blessed are the pure in heart, for they will see God. Matthew 5:8
Strong's Concordance
horaó: to see, perceive, attend to
Original Word: ὁράω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: horaó
Phonetic Spelling: (hor-ah'-o)
Short Definition: I see, look upon, experience
Definition: I see, look upon, experience, perceive, discern, beware.
HELPS Word-studies
3708 horáō – properly, see, often with metaphorical meaning: "to see with the mind" (i.e. spiritually see), i.e. perceive (with inward spiritual perception).
[The aorist form (eidon), is discussed at 1492 /eídō, "see." The future tense, and middle-passive form, are discussed under 3700 /optánomai, "see."]
Blessed are the pure in heart, for they will see God. Matthew 5:8
Strong's Concordance
horaó: to see, perceive, attend to
Original Word: ὁράω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: horaó
Phonetic Spelling: (hor-ah'-o)
Short Definition: I see, look upon, experience
Definition: I see, look upon, experience, perceive, discern, beware.
HELPS Word-studies
3708 horáō – properly, see, often with metaphorical meaning: "to see with the mind" (i.e. spiritually see), i.e. perceive (with inward spiritual perception).
[The aorist form (eidon), is discussed at 1492 /eídō, "see." The future tense, and middle-passive form, are discussed under 3700 /optánomai, "see."]
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
You go with your Church Fathers, and I'll go with mine.
The Apostle Peter believed man was literally created in God's image. This conversation is taken from the Clementine Homilies, a Jewish Christian document based on a second-century source:
And Simon said: "I should like to know, Peter, if you really believe that the shape of man has been moulded after the shape of God." And Peter said: "I am really quite certain, Simon, that this is the case... It is the shape of the just God."
For He has shape, and He has every limb primarily and solely for beauty's sake, and not for use. For He has not eyes that He may see with them; for He sees on every side, since He is imcomparably more brilliant in His body than the visual spirit which is in us, and He is more splended than everything, so that in comparison with Him the light of the sun may be reckoned as darkness. Nor has He ears that He may hear; for He hears, perceives, moves, energizes, acts on every side. But He has the most beautiful shape on account of man, that the pure in heart, may be able to see Him, that they may rejoice because they suffered. For He moulded man in His own shape as in the greatest seal, in order that he may be the ruler and lord of all, and that all may be subject to him.
So are you saying that you do or do not believe that Jesus Christ has a body today?
Of course.You go with your Church Fathers, and I'll go with mine.
Christ is eternal God and God is pure spirit. Christ took on his humanity at the incarnation, which will of course be maintained forever. So yes, Jesus has a physical body. However, Christ's humanity is not an inherent aspect of what Christ is as God only what he is as human. His humanity is something he has chosen to take on for our sake.
Nada
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Explaining the other passages is simple.It was never God in the flesh in all those passages where people spoke to God or said they saw him.Jacob was not lying.You just misunderstand is all.Jacob did not wrestle with God.He wrestled with a materialized angel.God aways used angels as representatives.God spoke through these messengers.
Moses saw a manifestation of God's glory.God the Almighty spoke from the clouds it says in the scriptures.Paul confirms it was not God but angels.
Acts 7:53 you who received the Law as transmitted by angels but have not kept it.”
When it says, "Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God." What this is really saying is that those who acquire an accurate knowledge of the one true God Jehovah,(Yahweh),can then perceive some of His qualities.We can learn what kind of loving God He truly is by observing His creations on Earth.Paul states this in Romans 1:20.
Romans 1:20 For his invisible qualities are clearly seen from the world’s creation onward, because they are perceived by the things made, even his eternal power and Godship, so that they are inexcusable.
Ephesians 1:18 He has enlightened the eyes of your heart, so that you may know to what hope he called you, what glorious riches he holds as an inheritance for the holy ones,
God the Almighty is a spirit.No one on Earth can see Him.
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
Whatever.
Nada
#
Lol....
JayJayDee
Avid JW Bible Student
Lol....
Frustrating isn't it when people can't see what is right under their noses?
After the transfiguration, Jesus told his apostles something that clears this question up......
Matt 17: 9 ...."As they were descending from the mountain, Jesus commanded them: “Tell the vision to no one until the Son of man is raised up from the dead.”
Visions are not real. Moses and Elijah were long dead, but they represented the Law and the Prophets which pointed forward to Jesus as Messiah.
We can see things that are not visual with the naked eye but visual to the mind. What Stephen saw was a vision of the situation in heaven with Jehovah's glory and the person of Jesus Christ at his right hand....the Holy Spirit however is missing from his left.
"No one has seen God at any time"....means exactly what it says. Jesus is not God or else this verse is a lie.
Jesus was raised as a spirit who could materialize a body of flesh and bone just like the Angels did when delivering messages to God's human servants. Jews were forbidden contact with spirits, (Deut 18:9-12) so Jesus appeared in a form that did not force them to break the law of God. "God is spirit" and we have no idea what a spirit looks like, because they are not material beings who can be seen with human eyes. If God has a body, or can only be seen by other spirits.
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
So you have that problem, too, huh?
Ya gotta love those JW's. Some verses "mean exactly what [they] say" and everybody who disagrees is just flat out stupid. And yet other verses mean something entirely different from what they say. When Jesus pointed out to this Apostles that He was a resurrected being "of flesh and bones," He was just doing some kind of a magic trick -- even through the Bible doesn't give us one tiny shred of information implying that this is the case.
As far as I'm concerned, if Jesus was just "raised as a spirit," then Luke 24:39 is a lie. You just can't win, can you? One way or the other, you've got to jump through a few hoops, and nobody can match JW's when it comes to jumping through hoops.Note: This thread is supposed to be about God the Father -- you know, your "Jehovah God"? So how about you get back on topic.
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