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Herod the Great

gnostic

The Lost One
I think many of the people know of Herod's deeds, recorded in Matthew's gospel, of ordering the killing of infants, in the hope of ridding the prophesized king - Jesus.

My problem is this. Why are there are no other reported document of such murder taking place. Herod was clearly a cruel, arrogant, unpopular, delusional and paranoid ruler of Judaea, and historians have reported that he murdered many of his rivals, including his own family members in real or perceived threats. Historians have recorded in detail of his life, even at his most cruelest, and yet none of the external sources have recorded him in sending people to kill infants.

Is the gospel's recording of this horrendous event genuine?
 

gnostic

The Lost One
Mainly Flavius Josephus, who wrote the Antiquities and The Jewish Wars. I am afraid is too much to supply. But basically, he murdered his wife, sons (I think there are two), and other members from his wife's side, as well as on his side of the family.

Josephus made no mention of the massacre of infants. Josephus would have written it, and this omission is very strange since he was very anti-Herod. Other writers included who mention of Herod is Plutarch, a classical biographer, but only in connection with Mark Antonius and Octavius/Augustus Caesar, since these two Romans are Herod's contemporaries.

Massarce of infants would have not go unreported, robtex, even in a small client kingdom such as that of Judaea.
 

Mykola

Member
gnostic said:
I think many of the people know of Herod's deeds, recorded in Matthew's gospel, of ordering the killing of infants, in the hope of ridding the prophesized king - Jesus.
...
Is the gospel's recording of this horrendous event genuine?

Not an answer, but small comment... James Patrick Holding from tektonics.org wrote:
"Although much has been made of the Slaughter of the Innocents - and indeed, any such event would be tragic - there is no reason to assume that it could be considered high on the list of Herod's atrocities in terms of scope or magnitude. How many boys aged two and under could there have been in and around the tiny city of Bethlehem? Five? Ten? Matthew does not give a number. Josephus says that Herod murdered a vast number of people, and was so cruel to those he didn't kill that the living considered the dead to be fortunate. Thus, indirectly, Josephus tells us that there were many atrocities that Herod committed that he does not mention in his histories - and it is probable that authorizing the killing of the presumably few male infants in the vicinity of Bethlehem was a minuscule blot of the blackness that was the reign of Herod. Being that the events of the reign of Herod involved practically one atrocity after another - it is observed by one writer, with a minimum of hyperbole, that hardly a day in his 36-year reign passed when someone wasn't sentenced to death - why should any one event in particular have touched off a rebellion, when others in particular, including those recorded by Josephus, did not? Herod probably died in March or April of 4 BC; the Slaughter would therefore have occurred during one of his last two years on earth, and it is ridiculous to say that the things he did in the previous 34 years - equally, if not more so, a time of political unrest among the Jews - was insufficient to incite rebellion, whereas killing a few male infants in a backwater suburb would be sufficient in comparison.

Furthermore, a revolt would have been unlikely in any event. For all of his ruthlessness, Herod was nowhere near the monster the likes of, say, Caligula. More importantly, he was careful to not offend Jewish religious sensibilities; Josephus records only two instances where pious Jews questioned him on such matters. [Sanders, Historical Figure of Jesus, 19, 297] In Jewish eyes, Herod might have been a devil; but he was a nicer devil to have in charge than a Roman devil! The Slaughter of the Innocents, though, is something that fits in perfectly with the character of Herod. (Also, is it perhaps not too far a reach to wonder whether Herod - who had his own son assassinated - hired vigilantes of some sort to perpetrate the Slaughter, and that it was not connected to him until his death which was shortly thereafter, when it was too late for anyone to vent their anger on him?)"

Sorry for such a large quote, but I cannot post links yet.
 

michel

Administrator Emeritus
Staff member
The only thing I can find are articles denying the veracity of the story; onesuch,
http://www.vexen.co.uk/religion/christianity_birthnarrative.html
5. King Herod: The Killing of Every Male Baby


The next part of Matthew, two, tells us of King Herod's anger at the three wise men and then of the killing of every child. Surely, the slaughter of every male child (Matthew 2:16-17 in Bethlehem, Ramah, and the surrounding area would have got mentioned in many places, such as Josephus' detailed accounts of the times, in fact it would likely cause the downfall of such an immoral, monstrous leader who issued such orders! Incidentally, the other 'great' leader in the Bible to issue such orders was Moses, Numbers 31:17-18, Joshua 6:21-24, in both cases killing all the women/young/old in a city in two separate occasions.
Many other myths, including more ancient Roman ones, had an event where all the male children were killed, and the famous Romulus and Remus story is (once again) a good, famous example.
It is likely that Herod's orders to kill all those children, and the star that went noticed by all except three astrologers from "the East", did not actually happen. Both Luke and Matthew appear to, well, make things up, and none of these things are mentioned in the other two gospels, nor in the recovered Gospel of Thomas. There are no birth records for Jesus, nor any first hand accounts of his life, so that these two contradictory and inaccurate accounts are the only snippets of information that we have. It is possible that Matthew/Luke were referring to a myth when they talked of Jesus' and his early life. It seems highly likely that Luke, when writing of the events that surrounded Jesus' birth, was thinking of the famous Roman myth (that was around well before the Jesus' myth) of Romulus and Remus - who also were born by a virgin, and also had a king ordering the slaughter of all the other children in the same area.

As an aside, what do you make of the above comment on Luke and Matthew ?
 

Pah

Uber all member
Mykola said:
Not an answer, but small comment... James Patrick Holding from tektonics.org wrote:
"Although much has been made of the Slaughter of the Innocents - and indeed, any such event would be tragic - there is no reason to assume that it could be considered high on the list of Herod's atrocities in terms of scope or magnitude. How many boys aged two and under could there have been in and around the tiny city of Bethlehem? Five? Ten? Matthew does not give a number. Josephus says that Herod murdered a vast number of people, and was so cruel to those he didn't kill that the living considered the dead to be fortunate. Thus, indirectly, Josephus tells us that there were many atrocities that Herod committed that he does not mention in his histories - and it is probable that authorizing the killing of the presumably few male infants in the vicinity of Bethlehem was a minuscule blot of the blackness that was the reign of Herod. Being that the events of the reign of Herod involved practically one atrocity after another - it is observed by one writer, with a minimum of hyperbole, that hardly a day in his 36-year reign passed when someone wasn't sentenced to death - why should any one event in particular have touched off a rebellion, when others in particular, including those recorded by Josephus, did not? Herod probably died in March or April of 4 BC; the Slaughter would therefore have occurred during one of his last two years on earth, and it is ridiculous to say that the things he did in the previous 34 years - equally, if not more so, a time of political unrest among the Jews - was insufficient to incite rebellion, whereas killing a few male infants in a backwater suburb would be sufficient in comparison.

Furthermore, a revolt would have been unlikely in any event. For all of his ruthlessness, Herod was nowhere near the monster the likes of, say, Caligula. More importantly, he was careful to not offend Jewish religious sensibilities; Josephus records only two instances where pious Jews questioned him on such matters. [Sanders, Historical Figure of Jesus, 19, 297] In Jewish eyes, Herod might have been a devil; but he was a nicer devil to have in charge than a Roman devil! The Slaughter of the Innocents, though, is something that fits in perfectly with the character of Herod. (Also, is it perhaps not too far a reach to wonder whether Herod - who had his own son assassinated - hired vigilantes of some sort to perpetrate the Slaughter, and that it was not connected to him until his death which was shortly thereafter, when it was too late for anyone to vent their anger on him?)"

Sorry for such a large quote, but I cannot post links yet.
James is my favorate apologist. His "answers" are always fun. So let's see - it was not "great enough" to make specific mention in the history books of the time but was of such concern to an almighty God that he placed the circumstance in his "word"?

I really love the conspiracy therory. Herod, the god-father, the Don.

As in another question, his answer to that was there was not enough "paper" to record the "real truth", maybe Josephus didn't have access to Staples?
 

Mykola

Member
Pah said:
James is my favorate apologist. His "answers" are always fun.


Starting with argumentum ad hominem? :)
James aside, let's discuss the idea itself...

Pah said:
So let's see - it was not "great enough" to make specific mention in the history books of the time but was of such concern to an almighty God that he placed the circumstance in his "word"?


The answer is 'yes, of course'! :)

What's more, I remember a guy who asked me why God haven't told us in the Bible how to produce cheap energy instead of giving information on salvation... It was quite a question... :)

Pah said:
I really love the conspiracy therory. Herod, the god-father, the Don.


???
I see you're just enjoying typing letters and building words of them... :)

Pah said:
As in another question, his answer to that was there was not enough "paper" to record the "real truth", maybe Josephus didn't have access to Staples?

What d'you mean by "the "real truth"?
 

Pah

Uber all member
Mykola said:
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Starting with argumentum ad hominem? :)
....
What d'you mean by "the "real truth"?
When you cite an authotity, his or her credentials are pertainent to the answers you have relied upon. James is a "wanna-be" but has very little critical scholarship yet has set himself up as an "expert".

The "real truth", in this case, were the words, that would directly support James' fanatasy.

I think it is no accident that Biblical massacures exaggerate the numbers and importance of the act. James seems to be saying the same thing about Herod's story.
 

Mykola

Member
Pah said:
When you cite an authotity, his or her credentials are pertainent to the answers you have relied upon.


Okay, but I didn't quote an authority. It's just an information to be used for contemplation on the subject.

Pah said:
James is a "wanna-be" but has very little critical scholarship yet has set himself up as an "expert".


It must be some personal matter between you and him... :) Well, I'm not James, so let's leave him alone...

Pah said:
The "real truth", in this case, were the words, that would directly support James' fanatasy.


I'd say 'opinion'. 'Fantasy' requires more fantasy, you know...

Pah said:
I think it is no accident that Biblical massacures exaggerate the numbers and importance of the act.


Who exaggerated what? Are there any numbers of infants killed in the Bible? Or have I misunderstood you?
 

anders

Well-Known Member
Mykola said:
Who exaggerated what? Are there any numbers of infants killed in the Bible? Or have I misunderstood you?
pah referred to massacres, like the supposed genocides when the Israelites entered Canaan. Complete cities razed, all inhabitants and animals killed etc. Those massive events should have left easy to find traces for archeologists to find, but fortunately for the reputations of Jahwe and his people, not even one spearhead or tiny bone can be found in the areas concerned from those days.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
Massacre doesn't necessarily mean razing cities....or killing of all inhabitants. The word mean killing of a number of people. Murder of an entire family of five would be considered a massacre. Whether the number is 5, 10, 100 or million, it is still a massacre, but genocide can be use for larger number of death.

Destroying a city along with the inhabitants, the word "annihilation" would be more appropriate.

Anders is correct that there are very little evidence of violence in Canaan at this time. There is no archaeological proof of an invasion.
 
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