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Not wanting sex is abuse now?

freethinker44

Well-Known Member
however, not wishing to have sex isn't abusive. 'withholding' is....
This may need more discussion, on the surface it sounds like it implies an obligation to have sex with your partner, which I strongly disagree with.

I think the only way I could get behind this is if sex was a biological necessity, which I highly doubt (not to mention that it would justify rape in many cases is disturbing), but even then I don't think I would consider it abuse and definitely wouldn't put it in the same realm as physical/mental domestic abuse.
 

Curious George

Veteran Member
It's not a mental disorder...it's a personality disorder...i never said it's a mental disorder. and women also can have it, too. of course. the thread is about men in the article...so, that's why i brought it up. my point wasn't to single out men but rather to show that if someone is abusing a person in any way, most likely it's taking place well out of the bedroom before sex even becomes a topic. 'good' people don't abuse others, in any way. for any reason.

however, not wishing to have sex isn't abusive. 'withholding' is....
What??

No, no, no. I'm not even sure how this is possible..."I want to have sex, but I choose not to?" If you choose not to, if you withhold sex, then on some level you don't want to have sex. People can have conflicting wants.

This article amounts to saying that not wanting to have sex is passive aggressive behavior. While SOME of those reasons for not wanting to have sex (by either sex) could reflect an unhealthy psychology, or a breakdown of communication, withholding for any reason just represents a desire not to have sex. Very few of us handle every emotion in the most efficient and healthy manner, very few of us communicate in the most efficacious way. A man or a woman who withholds sex, even for unhealthy reasons, is not abuse. Think of what this would imply. If my girlfriend punches me once, she is abusive. If she doesn't take out the trash because I forgot, she is not abusive. Consent means full consent.
 

Deidre

Well-Known Member
This may need more discussion, on the surface it sounds like it implies an obligation to have sex with your partner, which I strongly disagree with.

I think the only way I could get behind this is if sex was a biological necessity, which I highly doubt (not to mention that it would justify rape in many cases is disturbing), but even then I don't think I would consider it abuse and definitely wouldn't put it in the same realm as physical/mental domestic abuse.

no, i never implied that. lol no one is under any obligation to have sex ...

withholding though implies something more deliberate than 'i'm not in the mood tonight, honey.' that's not withholding. withholding is...that you want to have sex but you won't have sex in order to play a power trip on the other person. i know about this crap because i dated a few narcissists in my life. they didn't withhold sex, but my research on the disorder got me to finding all kinds of bizarre factoids on the games they like the play against their partners. women actually play the withholding game more than men.
 

Deidre

Well-Known Member
What??

No, no, no. I'm not even sure how this is possible..."I want to have sex, but I choose not to?" If you choose not to, if you withhold sex, then on some level you don't want to have sex. People can have conflicting wants.

This article amounts to saying that not wanting to have sex is passive aggressive behavior. While SOME of those reasons for not wanting to have sex (by either sex) could reflect an unhealthy psychology, or a breakdown of communication, withholding for any reason just represents a desire not to have sex. Very few of us handle every emotion in the most efficient and healthy manner, very few of us communicate in the most efficacious way. A man or a woman who withholds sex, even for unhealthy reasons, is not abuse. Think of what this would imply. If my girlfriend punches me once, she is abusive. If she doesn't take out the trash because I forgot, she is not abusive. Consent means full consent.

we are talking apples and oranges.

withholding ...that term...typically means that the person is doing something deliberate to upset the other. if i don't want to have sex with my boyfriend, he wouldn't accuse me of withholding. withholding is a different thing than not wanting to be in the mood.

it is a form of manipulation. am i the only one who has ever heard of couples using sex against each other like this? lol
 

Curious George

Veteran Member
we are talking apples and oranges.

withholding ...that term...typically means that the person is doing something deliberate to upset the other. if i don't want to have sex with my boyfriend, he wouldn't accuse me of withholding. withholding is a different thing than not wanting to be in the mood.

it is a form of manipulation. am i the only one who has ever heard of couples using sex against each other like this? lol
No, but usually when couples use this, it is not a form of abuse, but a symptom of larger problems.

You do not choose not to have sex with someone without on some level not wanting to have sex with them.
 

freethinker44

Well-Known Member
no, i never implied that. lol no one is under any obligation to have sex ...

withholding though implies something more deliberate than 'i'm not in the mood tonight, honey.' that's not withholding. withholding is...that you want to have sex but you won't have sex in order to play a power trip on the other person. i know about this crap because i dated a few narcissists in my life. they didn't withhold sex, but my research on the disorder got me to finding all kinds of bizarre factoids on the games they like the play against their partners. women actually play the withholding game more than men.
I get what you're saying, but 'withholding' implies something is owed and I'm not ready to accept that sex is ever owed to anyone. Even if someone pays for sex but doesn't get it, at most they are just owed a refund in my opinion.

At any rate, I don't think it's abuse, or even wrong or unethical.
 

Deidre

Well-Known Member
I get what you're saying, but 'withholding' implies something is owed and I'm not ready to accept that sex is ever owed to anyone. Even if someone pays for sex but doesn't get it, at most they are just owed a refund in my opinion.

At any rate, I don't think it's abuse, or even wrong or unethical.
no one died from lack of sex. to my knowledge...it wouldn't be the same as withholding food from someone, this is true.
but i am merely sharing things i've read and even have heard from friends who have been through toxic relationships where this was employed. it's not anything i have first hand experience at.
sex isn't a must in a relationship, but if i'm in a healthy relationship now where sex is a healthy part of that. i think if my bf or i didn't want to have sex with the other, that wouldn't be something either should sweep under the carpet. my opinion.

agree with you overall.
 

MysticSang'ha

Big Squishy Hugger
Premium Member
This may need more discussion, on the surface it sounds like it implies an obligation to have sex with your partner, which I strongly disagree with.

I think the only way I could get behind this is if sex was a biological necessity, which I highly doubt (not to mention that it would justify rape in many cases is disturbing), but even then I don't think I would consider it abuse and definitely wouldn't put it in the same realm as physical/mental domestic abuse.

^^^So much this.

EDIT TO ADD: No such thing as "wifely duties." No such thing as "husband duties" either. So can society please stop impressing upon couples that sex needs to have some obligatory aspects of it to define the health of a relationship? Can society start impressing upon everyone that healthy sexual and informed consent is enthusiastic? Not having sex with somebody is NOT abusive nor is it passive/aggressive, regardless of gender.
 

Deidre

Well-Known Member
No one is saying that sex is obligatory. lol
But, to say that couples don't manipulate in this way would be naive. Abuse takes many forms. If you've never been abused, then you don't know. You don't know, what you don't know.
 

Curious George

Veteran Member
No one is saying that sex is obligatory. lol
But, to say that couples don't manipulate in this way would be naive. Abuse takes many forms. If you've never been abused, then you don't know. You don't know, what you don't know.
Ouch, first of all that is contradictory. Second, I would guarantee that we all have experienced passive aggression, thirdly, many of us have experienced what is legally definable as abuse as well.

I am not saying that there are not deeper issues going on when people are acting passive aggressively. But, sex is never a given. Sex is never assumed. People can and should be able to opt out at anytime, even if they want to do so for unhealthy reasons.

While those reasons could signify something massively disturbed in an individual, that is there mental issue that needs to be addressed separate from sex.
 

Harmonious

Well-Known Member
I get what you're saying, but 'withholding' implies something is owed and I'm not ready to accept that sex is ever owed to anyone. Even if someone pays for sex but doesn't get it, at most they are just owed a refund in my opinion.

At any rate, I don't think it's abuse, or even wrong or unethical.
I wonder if you have heard of the concept of sexual neglect.
 

Harmonious

Well-Known Member
EDIT TO ADD: No such thing as "wifely duties." No such thing as "husband duties" either. So can society please stop impressing upon couples that sex needs to have some obligatory aspects of it to define the health of a relationship? Can society start impressing upon everyone that healthy sexual and informed consent is enthusiastic? Not having sex with somebody is NOT abusive nor is it passive/aggressive, regardless of gender.
Actually, it very much can be.
 

Curious George

Veteran Member
Actually, it very much can be.
Passive aggressive is inseparable from intent. While I agree that it is possible to reject someone as a manifestation of passive aggression, the choice to say no, is still within the non consenting person's authority. You can not want to have sex for good reasons, for bad reasons, or even for no reason. But not wanting to have sex, is enough reason, regardless of a person's underlying reason or lack thereof, to not have sex. This fact, prevents abstaining from sex from being abuse.
 

freethinker44

Well-Known Member
I wonder if you have heard of the concept of sexual neglect.
I have, and I don't consider it abuse. In fact I think people who "suffer" from sexual neglect/sexual rejection are the ones with the problem. If your self esteem or relationship is defined by your sex life I think that's very unhealthy and to accuse someone of abuse for not wanting to have sex with them is itself narcissistic and abusive.
 

Deidre

Well-Known Member
Ouch, first of all that is contradictory. Second, I would guarantee that we all have experienced passive aggression, thirdly, many of us have experienced what is legally definable as abuse as well.

I am not saying that there are not deeper issues going on when people are acting passive aggressively. But, sex is never a given. Sex is never assumed. People can and should be able to opt out at anytime, even if they want to do so for unhealthy reasons.

While those reasons could signify something massively disturbed in an individual, that is there mental issue that needs to be addressed separate from sex.
I've never said sex is assumed. lol
I'm not going to defend things I didn't say.

I inserted my thoughts about NPD...that's it. Nothing more or less. In fact, I believe that if someone is playing head games of any type, one should get out. Sexually or otherwise.
 

dust1n

Zindīq
I disagree. Abuse tends to stem from entitlement from or of another person. Desiring sex with another person is different from entitlement of sex with another person. Entitlement mentality sets the parameters where "lack of" is equated to "abuse" or "neglect."

I agree. Even in the most imaginable douchey settings, whatever the reason a person may not want to be having sex at a given point, it's still clearly there decision. If there if a significant disagreement for when and how sex plays out in a relationship, to the point of being a big problem for someone, then seek an alternative path. No one's body suddenly becomes a responsibility to someone else because of mind games.
 

dust1n

Zindīq
I've never said sex is assumed. lol
I'm not going to defend things I didn't say.

I inserted my thoughts about NPD...that's it. Nothing more or less. In fact, I believe that if someone is playing head games of any type, one should get out. Sexually or otherwise.

I think I vaguely get where your coming from. I can imagine a scenario in which a partner withholds intimacy in general, in a sort of twisted and misleading way. Relationships can be emotionally damaging in lots of ways. But I wouldn't hold a rejection of intimacy as abuse in an legalized sense of the word.
 

Thanda

Well-Known Member
I've got a different take.

Withholding sex from a spouse (I will speak specifically of married couples) would not be abusive if it was understood that either spouse is free to find that sex elsewhere without repercussions. Kind of like withholding a joke from your spouse: they're free to find something to make them laugh anywhere they want.

However as we all know that it is considered infidelity to get sex from anyone other than from your spouse in almost every culture and by every person. In some countries it is actually illegal. In many others, you can be sued. In most it is considered valid grounds for divorce.
And as we all know divorces are costly, and often the "guilty" party loses the most.

With such implications, withholding sex (purposely, for abusive reasons) is not a minor misdemeanor. It rightly earns its place in the realm of emotional and psychological abuse. Sex is a need! The fact that you won't die from not having it is not relevant. You won't die from not having an education but we know that education is a need. And since each person has a right to expect certain agreed upon needs to be met (if you've agreed with your spouse before your marriage not to have sex then I guess no harm is done), it is a right to have sex.

Having said that I wish to address the concern of those who worry about labeling sex a need and a right and the labeling of withholding sex as abuse. Something being a right does not mean you can take it by force. I have a right to an education: but I still have to wait for a school to accept me before I can get in. I cannot just barge in.
So while a spouse has a responsibility towards their partner fulfill their sexual needs, the onus is on the responsible partner to make themselves available to fill the need. It is not for the other spouse to force it.
 
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