Do people understand the trinity doctrine?

Ingledsva said:

BULL! We have gone through these over and over.

For instance - John 20:28 actually says - My Lord and my JUDGE. I do not understand how you folks don't understand these words have several meanings. JUDGE - fits the text. This is actually a story of JUDGMENT.

Joh 20:24 But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came.

Joh 20:25 The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe.

Joh 20:26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peacebeunto you.

Joh 20:27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrustitinto my side: and be not faithless, but believing.

Joh 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my JUDGE.

Joh 20:29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.
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And Hebrews

Heb 1:1 At sundry times and in diverse manors God spoke in the old time to our fathers by the Prophets: in these last days he (GOD) hath spoken unto us by his Son,

Heb 1:8 But moreover to the Son, the throne of Thee oh God, is forever and ever. A staff of righteousness is the scepter of thy reign.

Others have -

Heb 1:8 But moreover to the Son the throne, of THEE oh GOD, is Forever and ever...

Either way it shows Jesus gets the throne of God, - he is NOT God.

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Not sure why you are putting in Acts 5:3 - as the Holy Spirit is the acting power of God - NOT A BEING - so Ananias is trying to lie to God.

Act 5:3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?

Act 5:4 Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.

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Mark 10:18 And he Jesus said to him: why me call good? None/Not even one is good; not one but the Deity.

John 5:30 I can do nothing by myself; but as I hear I judge, and my judgment is just; for I do not seek my own will, but the will of him who sent me.


Jesus is NOT GOD - nor part of a trinity - and every one of these verses you try to say show he is, - in reality show he is NOT, or have nothing to do with such.

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JFish123 said:

Words with several meanings so you choose the words that suit your view on scripture instead of having the scripture speak for itself.
Revelation 1:7-8 says that someone "is coming." Who? Verse 7 says it is someone who was "pierced." Who was it that was pierced when he was nailed up to die? Jesus! But verse 8 says that it is Jehovah God who "is coming." Could it be that there are two who are coming? No, as Verse 8 refers to "the One who... Is coming."
Revelation 1:8 states clearly that Jehovah God is the Alpha and Omega. Now note what he says at Revelation 22:12-13:
"Look! I am coming quickly... I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last..." So, Jehovah God is coming quickly. But notice the response when he says it again:
"'Yes; I am coming quickly." Amen! Come, Lord Jesus.'"
So who is speaking in Revelation 2:8? "These are the things that he says, 'the First and the Last,' who became dead and came back to life again."
Obviously it's Jesus. Who was Jesus identifying Himself as being, when He called Himself "the First and the Last?" This is how Almighty God described Himself in the Old Testament (Isaiah 48:12-13)

Who is the "Lord" of Joel 2:32? It's Jehovah right? Since the "Lord" of Acts 2:21 was nailed to a cross, raised from the dead, and ascended to heaven, who, then, is this "Lord" of Acts 2:21? Obviously Jesus. Since Peter is quoting Joel 2:32 in Acts 2:21 as being fulfilled in Jesus Christ, what does it say about Jesus' True Identity?

Let us look at the gospel of John. Here at the end of chapter 12, this is towards the end of Jesus' public ministry. And this is before the private ministry to the disciples. And verse 39...
39 The reason why they were not able to believe is that again Isaiah said:
40 “He has blinded their eyes and has made their hearts hard, so that they would not see with their eyes and understand with their hearts and turn around and I heal them.”
41 Isaiah said these things because he saw his glory, and he spoke about him.
Now I'm sure you've read that before, but have you ever stopped and asked yourself the question.
"...these things because he saw his glory." In the context, it's only Jesus. So when did Isaiah see Jesus' glory? Well, we just had a quotation so where's the citation from? From Isaiah chapter 6. You know Isaiah chapter 6 I'm sure. It's about the prophets vision of Jehovah sitting upon His throne...
6 In the year that King Uz·zi′ah died, I saw Jehovah sitting on a lofty and elevated throne, and the skirts of his robe filled the temple.
2 Seraphs were standing above him; each had six wings. Each covered his face with two and covered his feet with two, and each of them would fly about with two.
3 And one called to the other:
“Holy, holy, holy is Jehovah of armies.The whole earth is filled with his glory.”
4 And the pivots of the thresholds quivered at the sound of the shouting, and the house was filled with smoke.
5 Then I said: “Woe to me!
I am as good as dead,
For I am a man of unclean lips,
And I live among a people of unclean lips; For my eyes have seen the King, Jehovah of armies himself!”
The quotation from Isaiah 6 is from verse 10...
10 Make the heart of this people unreceptive, Make their ears unresponsive,And paste their eyes together,So that they may not see with their eyes and hear with their ears,So that their heart may not understand and they may not turn back and be healed.”
So do you see what John is saying in John chapter 12? When he said, Isaiah said these things because he saw His glory and spoke of Him.
If you asked Isaiah... "Isaiah? Who did you see in Isaiah chapter 6?" Isaiah's response would have been, YHWY. YHWY was sitting upon His throne lofty and lifted up.
But if you asked John, "Who did Isaiah see?" Johns answer, is Jesus. The one sitting upon the throne, is Jesus.

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Ingledsva said:

AGAIN - we have discussed most of these and they DO NOT say Jesus is God, or part of any trinity.

AGAIN - Jesus DOES NOT say he is God, or part of any trinity.

AGAIN - There is no trinity doctrine in the Bible, as any real Biblical Scholar can tell you. It was added later.

You really need to start looking these verses up in their original languages before you post them.

For instance you mention - Lord in Joel 2:32 and thus claim Acts 2:21 using Lord makes them the same.

NOT SO! Joel 2:32 DOES NOT HAVE - LORD - in it! It uses YHVH!

Joel has God speaking. Acts 2:21 is about God's Holy Spirit coming upon them as spoken in Joel. It has NOTHING to do with Jesus being God, or part of any trinity.

Act 2:3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.

Act 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

Act 2:12 And they were all amazed, and were in doubt, saying one to another, What meaneth this?

Act 2:13 Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine.

Act 2:14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:

Act 2:15 For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.

Act 2:16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;

Act 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

Act 2:18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:

Act 2:19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:


Act 2:21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Act 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:

This has NOTHING to do with Jesus being a God!

NONE - of the Tanakh texts you folks have brought up - have actually been about Jesus.

By the way - break these posts into paragraphs, etc., so I can figure out where one thought ends and another starts. Or where you have added comment, than moved on to something else.

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JFish123 said:

The trinity The Father, The Son and the Holy Spirit are all called the exact same thing. All have the attributes of God and do the actions of God. If you have all the attributes of God and do what God does, then your God. No getting around it. Here's the scriptural proof.
A Comparison of YHWY and JESUS to Show There Same Identity
Description as YHWY (I AM)
As used of YHWY:
Exodus 3:14
Deuteronomy 32:39
Isaiah 43:10
As used of JESUS:
John 8:24
John 8:58
John 18:4-6
Description as God
As used of YHWY:
Genesis 1:1
Deuteronomy 6:4
Psalm 45:6-7
As used of JESUS:
Isaiah 7:14, 9:6
John 1:1, 1:14
John 20:28
Titus 2:13
Hebrews 1:8
2 Peter 1:1
Description as Alpha and Omega
As used of YHWY:
Isaiah 41:4
Isaiah 48:12
Revelation 1:8
As used of JESUS:
Revelation 1:17-18
Revelation 2:8
Revelation 22:12-16
Description as Lord
As used by YHWY:
Isaiah 45:23
As used by JESUS:
Matthew 12:8
Acts 7:59-60
Acts 10:36
Romans 10:12
1 Corinthians 2:8, 12:3
Philippians 2:10-11
Description as Savior
As used by YHWY:
Isaiah 43:3, 43:11, 63:8
Luke 1:47
1 Timothy 4:10
As Used of JESUS:
Matthew 1:21
Luke 2:11
John 1:29
John 4:42
Titus 2:13
Hebrews 5:9
Description as King
As used of YHWY:
Psalm 95:3
Isaiah 43:15
1 Timothy 6:14-16
As used of JESUS:
Revelation 17:14
Revelation 19:16
Description as Judge
As used of YHWY:
Genesis 18:25
Psalm 50:4,6
Psalm 96:13
Romans 14:10
As used of JESUS:
John 5:22
2 Corinthians 5:10
2 Timothy 4:1
Description as Light
As used of YHWY:
2 Samuel 22:29
Psalm 27:1
Isaiah 42:6
As used if JESUS:
John 1:4,9
John 3:19
John 8:12
John 9:5
Description as Rock
As used if YHWY:
Deuteronomy 32:3-4
2 Samuel 22:32
Psalm 89:26
As used of JESUS:
Romans 9:33
1 Corinthians 10:3-4
1 Peter 2:4-8
Description as Redeemer
As used of YHWY:
Psalm 130:7-8
Isaiah 48:17
Isaiah 54:5
Isaiah 63:9
As used if JESUS:
Acts 20:28
Ephesians 1:7
Hebrews 9:12
Description as Our Righteousness
As used of YHWY:
Isaiah 45:24
As used of JESUS:
Jeremiah 23:6
Romans 3:21-22
Description as Husband
As used if YHWY:
Isaiah 54:5
Hosea 2:16
As used of JESUS:
Matthew 25:1
Mark 2:18-19
2 Corinthians 11:2
Ephesians 5:25-32
Revelation 21:2, 9
Description as Shepherd
As used if YHWY:
Genesis 49:24
Psalm 23:1
Psalm 80:1
As used of JESUS:
John 10:11,16
Hebrews 13:20
1 Peter 2:25
1 Peter 5:4
Description as Creator
As used of YHWY:
Genesis 1:1
Job 33:4
Psalm 95:5-6
Psalm 102:25-26
Isaiah 40:28
As used of JESUS:
John 1:2-3, 10
Colossians 1:15-18
Hebrews 1:1-3, 10
Description a Giver of Life
As used of YHWY:
Genesis 2:7
Deuteronomy 32:39
1 Samuel 2:6
Psalm 36:9
As used of JESUS:
John 5:21
John 10:28
John 11:25
Description as Forgiver is sin
As used of YHWY:
Exodus 34:6-7
Nehemiah 9:17
Daniel 9:9
Jonah 4:2
As used of JESUS:
Mark 2:1-12
Acts 26:18
Colossians 2:13, 3:13
Description as Lord Our Healer
As used of YHWY:
Exodus 15:25
As used of JESUS:
Acts 9:34
Description as Omnipresent
As used of YHWY:
Psalm 139:7-12
Proverbs 15:3
As used of JESUS:
Matthew 18:20
Matthew 28:20
Ephesians 3:17, 4:10
Description a Omniscient
As used of YHWY:
1 Kings 8:39
Jeremiah 17:9-10, 16
As used of JESUS:
Matthew 11:27
Luke 5:4-6
John 2:25
John 16:30
John 21:18
Acts 1:24
Description as Omnipotent
As used of YHWH:
Isaiah 40:10-31
Isaiah 45:5-13
As used of JESUS:
Matthew 28:18
Mark 1:29-34
John 10:18
Jude 24
Description as Preexistent
As used of YHWY:
Genesis 1:1
As used of JESUS:
John 1:15, 30
John 3:13, 31-32
John 6:62
John 16:28
John 17:5
Description as Eternal
As used of YHWY:
Psalm 102:26-27
Habakkuk 3:6
As used of JESUS:
Isaiah 9:6
Micah 5:2
John 8:58
Description as Unchanging
As used of YHWY:
Isaiah 46:9, 16
Malachi 3:6
James 1:17
As used if JESUS:
Hebrews 12:8
Description as Receiver of Worship
As used of YHWY:
Matthew 4:10
John 4:24
Revelation 5:14
Revelation 7:11
Revelation 11:16
As used of JESUS:
Matthew 14:33
Matthew 28:9
John 9:38
Philippians 2:10-11
Hebrews 1:6
Description as Speaker with Divine Authority
As used by YHWY:
"Thus says The Lord..." Used hundreds of times
As used by JESUS:
"Truly, truly, I say..."
Matthew 23:34-37
John 7:46

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Ingledsva said:

No the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are not the same.

Stop this spam of verse and number - without posting the verse and showing the proof that it actually says what you say it says, so I can disprove it - before we move on to the next few.

I am not going to waste my time looking all of those up, and than going to the original languages for each, when you are not making an argument for any of them.

Again - this is just spam, - pick a couple at a time - post the whole verse so others can follow along, - and we will debate them verse by verse!

Per the first one - I AM is not the name - YHVH is listed as the name.

In Deu 32:39 you are ridiculously just picking a sentence with "I" and "am" in it - with no context to Exo 3:14.

32:39 is about YHVH being the true God - as opposed to the "false" Gods.

Deu 32:16 They provoked him to jealousy with strange gods, with abominations provoked they him to anger.

Deu 32:17 They sacrificed unto devils, not to God; to gods whom they knew not, to new gods that came newly up, whom your fathers feared not.

Deu 32:18 Of the Rock that begat thee thou art unmindful, and hast forgotten God that formed thee.

Deu 32:36 For the LORD shall judge his people, and repent himself for his servants, when he seeth that their power is gone, and there is none shut up, or left.

Deu 32:37 And he shall say, Where are their gods, their rock in whom they trusted,

Deu 32:38 Which did eat the fat of their sacrifices, and drank the wine of their drink offerings? let them rise up and help you, and be your protection.

Deu 32:39 See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.

As I said - and as you can see this has nothing to do with the I AM verse. It is about knowing the true God from the false. I am HE the true God.

I'm not sure why you added Isaiah 43:10 - as it says the same thing as Deu 32:38 - That YHVH is the ONE and only God.

Isa 43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith YHVH, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

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JFish123 said:

I'm curious, what do you believe about God, Jesus, the bible, and the afterlife? Are you part of the Jehovahs Witnesses? Just curious to get a better understanding where you coming from is all

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Ingledsva said:

I am Agnostic.

I was raised Catholic, and studied Archaeology, and Comparative Religions, and took a separate, special course, offered by the Catholic Church.

I am interested in ancient people, their movements, the flow of language, and its connection to religion and philosophy around the world.

Abrahamic religions are of special interest as they are the ones now trying to push their religions, and or, religious laws, onto other people.

As to Jesus - if he existed - I believe he was just a special teacher.

But I am normally just debating what the verses actually say in their original languages.

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