Robert William
Member
It's not faith alone, that would be salvation by works and a false gospel, faith is believing, faith in an action a verb done by man. It's Grace through faith, and not everybody get's that unmerited favor.
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Watchtower Governing Body: Are They The Exclusive Channel For God??
- Thread starter katiemygirl
- Start date
It's not faith alone, that would be salvation by works and a false gospel, faith is believing, faith in an action a verb done by man. It's Grace through faith, and not everybody get's that unmerited favor.
Mountain_Climber
Active Member
It is not just a bland word, but it is a word which has the power to imprint. From that we derive the modern use of the word, "logo".
This is how it could be said that Jesus was, "the exact representation of God's very being"., or as the KJV words it, "the express image of his person."
Because of this, we are able to have a more lively understanding of what John meant when he said, "That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life.." 1 John 1:1
What we need to be aware of is the Grecian philosophers early into the first century and even a short time before had begun to popularize a worldly wise view of what that logos meant. They conceptualized it as, basically, God as a concept rather than as literal.
From what I observe, it is just like we humans to go to one extreme or the other, never coming to rest on the pure truth in between the two. For the truth is God is no mere concept, but indeed God was conceptualized in the life and way of Jesus. In fact, Jesus was so perfectly faithful to that image he bore of God that God takes great pleasure in glorifying him so that he shines even brighter as the superlative example to us all of what we should aim for.
2 Corinthians 3:18 "But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord."
Robert William
Member
I was surprised to find that the word Logos is not in scripture. Perhaps it's a Greek word.
Last edited:
Robert William
Member
I just looked up John 1:1 in my Greek linear, it says Logos for the word "word".
kjw47
Well-Known Member
This is what Jesus taught---John 20:17, Rev 3:12-----
This is what his real anointed teachers taught--2Cor 1:3, 1Cor 8:6, 1Cor 15:24-28---1Peter 1:3--- Rev 1:6--- all 100% in agreement--Jesus has a God-his Father.--- his teachers today teach the same.
These 4 teach 100% truth---- a pure contradiction of a trinity---you figure it out--it takes believing Jesus over mens dogmas. Few will believe him, it is sad.
kjw47
Well-Known Member
A good day sir, Yes Logos = greek = word
Theos= greek = God or god
In the beginning the logos was and the Logos was with ( ho) Theos, and the word was Theos
it was not calling the word--The God( meaning true almighty God) no ( ho) present in the last line--thus--small g god applies--carries the biblical meaning--has godlike qualities--because of this--acts 2:22--(Ho) Theos was doing it all through the Logos.
John 1:1
So the Watchtower argues that since the second occurrence of theos ("God") in John 1:1 has no definite article ("the") it this refers to a lesser deity who simply has godlike qualities. But must theos ("God") without the ho ("the") refer to someone less than Jehovah? By no means!
The Greek word 'Theos' without the definite article 'ho' is used of Jehovah Himself in the New Testament with the exact same Greek construction used in John 1:1. Indeed, the "Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature" used in most Seminaries states the truth, that the word theos is used "quite predominantly of the True God, sometimes with, sometimes without the article." An example of this is in Luke 20:38, where we read of Jehovah, "He is A GOD, not of the dead, but of the living.
Secondly, everyone has observed how inconsistent the Watchtower Society translates occurrence is theos ("God") without the article. It's been noted that there are 282 such occurrences in the New Testament. At 16 places the NWT has (similar to its translation of John 1:1) either a god, god, gods, or godly.
16 out of 282 means that the NWT translators were faithful to their translation principle only 6% of the time. In other words, in the great majority of occurrences of theos without the article in the New Testament, the Watchtower did NOT translate it as "a god." Their choice to translate John 1:1 this way shows their extreme theological bias against the absolute deity of Christ shown throughout the Bible.
Did you know that if the Watchtower was consistent in translating other verses like they did in John 1:1, we'd have some very strange sounding verses? For example:
"Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of A GOD." (Matthew 5:9)
"There came a man who was sent from A GOD whose name was A JOHN." (JOHN 1:6)
What does it say to you that the Watchtower translates the above verses correctly, but then sticks an indefinite article in John 1:1 in reference to Christ: "a god"? Are you sure you want to trust in the New World Translation?
Did you know that the overwhelming majority of credible Greek scholars in the world say the Watchtower Society is absolutely wrong and even deceptive in its translation including in John 1:1?
And finally, since the Watchtower Society claims that the phrase 'ho theos' ("the God") is not used of Jesus Christ in the New Testament, while in Fact, John 20:28, Matthew 1:23, and Hebrews 1:8 DO USE this phrase of Jesus Christ, doesn't this mean the Watchtower Society is a False Prophet (including all the false prophecies they made that didn't come true)?
Did you not comment on a change in Catholic doctrine, which I corrected, or did you forget?
Your right I guess all these scriptures are wrong...
A Comparison of YHWY and JESUS to Show There Same Identity
Description as YHWY (I AM)
As used of YHWY:
Exodus 3:14
Deuteronomy 32:39
Isaiah 43:10
As used of JESUS:
John 8:24
John 8:58
John 18:4-6
Description as God
As used of YHWY:
Genesis 1:1
Deuteronomy 6:4
Psalm 45:6-7
As used of JESUS:
Isaiah 7:14, 9:6
John 1:1, 1:14
John 20:28
Titus 2:13
Hebrews 1:8
2 Peter 1:1
Description as Alpha and Omega
As used of YHWY:
Isaiah 41:4
Isaiah 48:12
Revelation 1:8
As used of JESUS:
Revelation 1:17-18
Revelation 2:8
Revelation 22:12-16
Description as Lord
As used by YHWY:
Isaiah 45:23
As used by JESUS:
Matthew 12:8
Acts 7:59-60
Acts 10:36
Romans 10:12
1 Corinthians 2:8, 12:3
Philippians 2:10-11
Description as Savior
As used by YHWY:
Isaiah 43:3, 43:11, 63:8
Luke 1:47
1 Timothy 4:10
As Used of JESUS:
Matthew 1:21
Luke 2:11
John 1:29
John 4:42
Titus 2:13
Hebrews 5:9
Description as King
As used of YHWY:
Psalm 95:3
Isaiah 43:15
1 Timothy 6:14-16
As used of JESUS:
Revelation 17:14
Revelation 19:16
Description as Judge
As used of YHWY:
Genesis 18:25
Psalm 50:4,6
Psalm 96:13
Romans 14:10
As used of JESUS:
John 5:22
2 Corinthians 5:10
2 Timothy 4:1
Description as Light
As used of YHWY:
2 Samuel 22:29
Psalm 27:1
Isaiah 42:6
As used if JESUS:
John 1:4,9
John 3:19
John 8:12
John 9:5
Description as Rock
As used if YHWY:
Deuteronomy 32:3-4
2 Samuel 22:32
Psalm 89:26
As used of JESUS:
Romans 9:33
1 Corinthians 10:3-4
1 Peter 2:4-8
Description as Redeemer
As used of YHWY:
Psalm 130:7-8
Isaiah 48:17
Isaiah 54:5
Isaiah 63:9
As used if JESUS:
Acts 20:28
Ephesians 1:7
Hebrews 9:12
Description as Our Righteousness
As used of YHWY:
Isaiah 45:24
As used of JESUS:
Jeremiah 23:6
Romans 3:21-22
Description as Husband
As used if YHWY:
Isaiah 54:5
Hosea 2:16
As used of JESUS:
Matthew 25:1
Mark 2:18-19
2 Corinthians 11:2
Ephesians 5:25-32
Revelation 21:2, 9
Description as Shepherd
As used if YHWY:
Genesis 49:24
Psalm 23:1
Psalm 80:1
As used of JESUS:
John 10:11,16
Hebrews 13:20
1 Peter 2:25
1 Peter 5:4
Description as Creator
As used of YHWY:
Genesis 1:1
Job 33:4
Psalm 95:5-6
Psalm 102:25-26
Isaiah 40:28
As used of JESUS:
John 1:2-3, 10
Colossians 1:15-18
Hebrews 1:1-3, 10
Description a Giver of Life
As used of YHWY:
Genesis 2:7
Deuteronomy 32:39
1 Samuel 2:6
Psalm 36:9
As used of JESUS:
John 5:21
John 10:28
John 11:25
Description as Forgiver is sin
As used of YHWY:
Exodus 34:6-7
Nehemiah 9:17
Daniel 9:9
Jonah 4:2
As used of JESUS:
Mark 2:1-12
Acts 26:18
Colossians 2:13, 3:13
Description as Lord Our Healer
As used of YHWY:
Exodus 15:25
As used of JESUS:
Acts 9:34
Description as Omnipresent
As used of YHWY:
Psalm 139:7-12
Proverbs 15:3
As used of JESUS:
Matthew 18:20
Matthew 28:20
Ephesians 3:17, 4:10
Description a Omniscient
As used of YHWY:
1 Kings 8:39
Jeremiah 17:9-10, 16
As used of JESUS:
Matthew 11:27
Luke 5:4-6
John 2:25
John 16:30
John 21:18
Acts 1:24
Description as Omnipotent
As used of YHWH:
Isaiah 40:10-31
Isaiah 45:5-13
As used of JESUS:
Matthew 28:18
Mark 1:29-34
John 10:18
Jude 24
Description as Preexistent
As used of YHWY:
Genesis 1:1
As used of JESUS:
John 1:15, 30
John 3:13, 31-32
John 6:62
John 16:28
John 17:5
Description as Eternal
As used of YHWY:
Psalm 102:26-27
Habakkuk 3:6
As used of JESUS:
Isaiah 9:6
Micah 5:2
John 8:58
Description as Unchanging
As used of YHWY:
Isaiah 46:9, 16
Malachi 3:6
James 1:17
As used if JESUS:
Hebrews 12:8
Description as Receiver of Worship
As used of YHWY:
Matthew 4:10
John 4:24
Revelation 5:14
Revelation 7:11
Revelation 11:16
As used of JESUS:
Matthew 14:33
Matthew 28:9
John 9:38
Philippians 2:10-11
Hebrews 1:6
Description as Speaker with Divine Authority
As used by YHWY:
"Thus says The Lord..." Used hundreds of times
As used by JESUS:
"Truly, truly, I say..."
Matthew 23:34-37
John 7:46
So no Jews, Muslims, Hindus, etc in heaven? I think you're going to be surprised.
Robert William
Member
My next thread after my Jehovah Witness thread will show salvation by works written in their very own Rcc encyclopedia, not kidding, it very clearly teaches salvation by works, which is a false gospel, YHWH requires nothing less than 100% perfection, all who are attempting to earn their way in by keeping the law will perish eternally.
Mountain_Climber
Active Member
It is like this. The Word can only be God for it is not possible for it to exist except God sustains it.
So you are right about what I highlighted in red above and the Watchtower has unwittingly caused a debate which never should have existed.
But the point is that the Word is God's and should be looked upon as God's regardless of wherein God has set that Word. This is why throughout the Old testament scriptures we find various angels addressed as though speaking directly to God.
Jesus said, "If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not." John 10:37
Jesus lived the Word he spoke and that Word was God or God's, it matters not how one wishes to say it (our modern contractions were not a part of the Koine' Greek expression), just as he told us over and over: John 14:24 "He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the Word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me."
The very argument you are making can also be made as to when we should capitalize the "Word". For it is all speaking about that same Word of God which man sorely lacked in their hearts and which Word man needed to learn to reverence as God himself so that man would take it to heart and not forget it: John 5:38 "And ye have not his Word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not."
This is why we are told to eat of Jesus flesh. It is all a very illustrative way of impressing us with the reverence of God's Word as opposed to our old long-lived habit of depending upon man's word and wisdom.
That leads us right back to the mistake we see being made at Romans 10:2-3.
But the splitting of peas here with everyone only interested in making their own view the winner, is obscuring the true deeper understanding that that Word could only be God as there is no places else for such a perfect Word to come form. And that will be true when we, like those angels in the OT, have perfected God's image to ourselves to the point that we no longer speak thoughts independent of God, even as Jesus.
I truly hope we will soon have gotten over the need to rob God of the credit for his knowledge and wisdom as though it depends so greatly on our being so highly intelligent in and of our own selves.
kjw47
Well-Known Member
No, the JW teachers believe Jesus and his teachers who are all 100% in agreement--Jesus has a God-his Father( Jehovah)
John 20:17, Rev 3:12---2Cor 1:3, 1Cor 8:6, 1Cor 15: 24-28---1Peter 1:3---Rev 1:6
The #1 teaching in the nt--Jesus has a God-his Father.
then you must believe--God has a God and thus teach it as well
If the word was God( capitol G) - then explain how God can be with God( with another God(HS) over there) and there is 1 God in that? Its an impossibility for God to be with God and there be only 1 God.
its pure confusion and that's why they became a divided house( Mark 3:24-26) 1Cor 1:10 makes a divided house an impossiblity to be Gods as well. and that is why no( ho) in the last line is reality and a small g( god) is truth.
kjw47
Well-Known Member
Your right I guess all these scriptures are wrong...
A Comparison of YHWY and JESUS to Show There Same Identity
Description as YHWY (I AM)
As used of YHWY:
Exodus 3:14
Deuteronomy 32:39
Isaiah 43:10
As used of JESUS:
John 8:24
John 8:58
John 18:4-6
Description as God
As used of YHWY:
Genesis 1:1
Deuteronomy 6:4
Psalm 45:6-7
As used of JESUS:
Isaiah 7:14, 9:6
John 1:1, 1:14
John 20:28
Titus 2:13
Hebrews 1:8
2 Peter 1:1
Description as Alpha and Omega
As used of YHWY:
Isaiah 41:4
Isaiah 48:12
Revelation 1:8
As used of JESUS:
Revelation 1:17-18
Revelation 2:8
Revelation 22:12-16
Description as Lord
As used by YHWY:
Isaiah 45:23
As used by JESUS:
Matthew 12:8
Acts 7:59-60
Acts 10:36
Romans 10:12
1 Corinthians 2:8, 12:3
Philippians 2:10-11
Description as Savior
As used by YHWY:
Isaiah 43:3, 43:11, 63:8
Luke 1:47
1 Timothy 4:10
As Used of JESUS:
Matthew 1:21
Luke 2:11
John 1:29
John 4:42
Titus 2:13
Hebrews 5:9
Description as King
As used of YHWY:
Psalm 95:3
Isaiah 43:15
1 Timothy 6:14-16
As used of JESUS:
Revelation 17:14
Revelation 19:16
Description as Judge
As used of YHWY:
Genesis 18:25
Psalm 50:4,6
Psalm 96:13
Romans 14:10
As used of JESUS:
John 5:22
2 Corinthians 5:10
2 Timothy 4:1
Description as Light
As used of YHWY:
2 Samuel 22:29
Psalm 27:1
Isaiah 42:6
As used if JESUS:
John 1:4,9
John 3:19
John 8:12
John 9:5
Description as Rock
As used if YHWY:
Deuteronomy 32:3-4
2 Samuel 22:32
Psalm 89:26
As used of JESUS:
Romans 9:33
1 Corinthians 10:3-4
1 Peter 2:4-8
Description as Redeemer
As used of YHWY:
Psalm 130:7-8
Isaiah 48:17
Isaiah 54:5
Isaiah 63:9
As used if JESUS:
Acts 20:28
Ephesians 1:7
Hebrews 9:12
Description as Our Righteousness
As used of YHWY:
Isaiah 45:24
As used of JESUS:
Jeremiah 23:6
Romans 3:21-22
Description as Husband
As used if YHWY:
Isaiah 54:5
Hosea 2:16
As used of JESUS:
Matthew 25:1
Mark 2:18-19
2 Corinthians 11:2
Ephesians 5:25-32
Revelation 21:2, 9
Description as Shepherd
As used if YHWY:
Genesis 49:24
Psalm 23:1
Psalm 80:1
As used of JESUS:
John 10:11,16
Hebrews 13:20
1 Peter 2:25
1 Peter 5:4
Description as Creator
As used of YHWY:
Genesis 1:1
Job 33:4
Psalm 95:5-6
Psalm 102:25-26
Isaiah 40:28
As used of JESUS:
John 1:2-3, 10
Colossians 1:15-18
Hebrews 1:1-3, 10
Description a Giver of Life
As used of YHWY:
Genesis 2:7
Deuteronomy 32:39
1 Samuel 2:6
Psalm 36:9
As used of JESUS:
John 5:21
John 10:28
John 11:25
Description as Forgiver is sin
As used of YHWY:
Exodus 34:6-7
Nehemiah 9:17
Daniel 9:9
Jonah 4:2
As used of JESUS:
Mark 2:1-12
Acts 26:18
Colossians 2:13, 3:13
Description as Lord Our Healer
As used of YHWY:
Exodus 15:25
As used of JESUS:
Acts 9:34
Description as Omnipresent
As used of YHWY:
Psalm 139:7-12
Proverbs 15:3
As used of JESUS:
Matthew 18:20
Matthew 28:20
Ephesians 3:17, 4:10
Description a Omniscient
As used of YHWY:
1 Kings 8:39
Jeremiah 17:9-10, 16
As used of JESUS:
Matthew 11:27
Luke 5:4-6
John 2:25
John 16:30
John 21:18
Acts 1:24
Description as Omnipotent
As used of YHWH:
Isaiah 40:10-31
Isaiah 45:5-13
As used of JESUS:
Matthew 28:18
Mark 1:29-34
John 10:18
Jude 24
Description as Preexistent
As used of YHWY:
Genesis 1:1
As used of JESUS:
John 1:15, 30
John 3:13, 31-32
John 6:62
John 16:28
John 17:5
Description as Eternal
As used of YHWY:
Psalm 102:26-27
Habakkuk 3:6
As used of JESUS:
Isaiah 9:6
Micah 5:2
John 8:58
Description as Unchanging
As used of YHWY:
Isaiah 46:9, 16
Malachi 3:6
James 1:17
As used if JESUS:
Hebrews 12:8
Description as Receiver of Worship
As used of YHWY:
Matthew 4:10
John 4:24
Revelation 5:14
Revelation 7:11
Revelation 11:16
As used of JESUS:
Matthew 14:33
Matthew 28:9
John 9:38
Philippians 2:10-11
Hebrews 1:6
Description as Speaker with Divine Authority
As used by YHWY:
"Thus says The Lord..." Used hundreds of times
As used by JESUS:
"Truly, truly, I say..."
Matthew 23:34-37
John 7:46
I see your confusion--In the real Hebrew bible--I am is not the statement made in the ot--I shall prove to be what I shall prove to be is the correct statement made. Trinity error--there are many.
The reason that Jesus is called the majority of the things the Father( Jehovah) is called is because it is Jehovah who is doing all of it--his power alone, is going through Jesus( acts 2:22) so they both get credit as doing the works. But if one listens to Jesus--last line--Lords prayer--The KINGDOM--POWER--GLORY all belong to the Father-------- he shares things with Jesus--but Jesus is never called almighty God as Jehovah is.
Like with Moses--Moses didn't part the red sea--Jehovah parted the red sea--but both get credit. Gods power went through Moses just like it goes through Jesus and Jesus is called a god( small g) means--has godlike qualities---Moses portrayed godlike qualities when parting the redsea. But the bottom line of it all--it was Jehovah who does it all.
Umm he IS called Mighty God...
"For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace."
katiemygirl
CHRISTIAN
Thanks for your input. I'll mull over what you wrote. Then tomorrow, I'll give you my take on it.
katiemygirl
CHRISTIAN
Jehovah is also called mighty God, so if mighty means lesser, then JW's have a real problem.
katiemygirl
CHRISTIAN
Yes, now let's please get back to the thread topic. Your input would be appreciated. Thank you in advance.
katiemygirl
CHRISTIAN
Jesus said He is the way. No one comes to the Father except through Him. Unless Jews, Muslims and Hindus believe Jesus is the Son of God, they will not be in heaven.