Muffled
Jesus in me
I believe you make it sound easy but it isn't.
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The words of Jesus or impossible BS?
- Thread starter Awoon
- Start date
I believe you make it sound easy but it isn't.
Please !!! I don't make it sound anything. The Holy Bible which Christians claim to follow (at least ALL the Christian churches I've been to to follow it) records Jesus words as saying "He that BELIEVETH on me, the works that I do he shall do also."
Now if those words were only for his disciples 2000 years ago and not for anyone that BELIEVETH, then there is no reason or purpose for them to be in ANY Bible today.
There are dozens of quotes that someone repeated,
those that are of Jesus's lips, but many plagerized.
But the scriptures in all are mostly words of man,
not strictly Jesus' words or thoughts.
Someone here mentioned that Jesus went back to the Jewish beliefs,
I think.....he never left them.
Ahhhh...the words of Saul that Jesus never said, and John and Matthew.
One can only wish that he would have written some.
~
'mud
those that are of Jesus's lips, but many plagerized.
But the scriptures in all are mostly words of man,
not strictly Jesus' words or thoughts.
Someone here mentioned that Jesus went back to the Jewish beliefs,
I think.....he never left them.
Ahhhh...the words of Saul that Jesus never said, and John and Matthew.
One can only wish that he would have written some.
~
'mud
'mud,
I have heard what you say above from forum writers and some biblical teachers, but very few Christians.
Wouldn't it be wonderful if some famous Christian preachers, and Believers in Jesus would get together and write a new Bible eliminating ALL the words of men in there and just print the actual words of Jesus? But no one is allowed to do that and have it Believed by modern Christians. You see the brilliant creators of the Bible stories condemn anyone for adding to or taking away the written words of The Holy Bible.
So that is why I make posts like this. All one has to do, is BELIEVE in Jesus, and the works he did ( healing, raising the dead, casting out demons, walking on water, turning water into wine) the Believer will do also.
Not many real believers in Jesus or they would be DOING what the Belief in Jesus says they would DO.
outhouse
Atheistically
In fact you are wrong.
Those with the most education are almost unanimous that he did exist and that he was recorded in mythology
outhouse
Atheistically
It would be terrible because we don't know what the Jesus character actually said.
You could look at Q and Thomas which are just sayings, but we have no way of knowing who said what.
Many of the teachings attributed to jesus are actually just Johns sayings he taught to jesus.
Many are outright fabricated by the unknown authors far removed from his life. Every word written was from someone far removed from the man himself. This leaves us not knowing what was originally part of Johns movement when Jesus took it over.
outhouse
Atheistically
The importance of the text is not in who said what or who did what.
It is how they effect you and how they shape your life or not that is important.
They have no less meaning because someone else stated he said something.
Maybe how we define "believe" today is different than what it originally meant. We take it literally while ignoring the modifier preceding it, "on". Today's editions probably say "believe in me," (and that too we take literally) whereas "believe on me" may mean that the believer would have to have the same experience as Jesus had, of being "One with God". That may be what "works" meant, just as "whatsoever ye shall ask in my name" shouldn't be taken literally where one asks with their mind, mere lip service, but rather a supplication of one's spirit to the One Spirit. But even "the groaning of the spirit" may connote a mental longing and desire bought about by suffering, which in the extreme may even manifest in the sub-conscious.
When it comes to scripture those who read the words end up taking everything literally. If one subsequently has a mystical experience then the words are understood differently. No matter what the words written are, the un-believer will read it literally and at the same time accuse the believer of taking scripture literally, calling them Literalists.
For example, Luke 9:1, "Then he called the twelve disciples together, and gave them power and authority over all devils, and to cure diseases."
Does that mean that he merely said, "I give you authority over all devils, and to cure diseases"? or was there something else implied? In Law Enforcement one may get 'the authority' to uphold the law through the badge (which is only binding to the law abiding citizen) but the criminal knows that he has been trained to stop him. Therefore "calling the twelve together" may mean more than just meeting at the local coffee shop, it may mean some spiritual training was partaken, because mere words will not stop a demon or cure diseases.
Else where a couple of disciples complain that they were not able to cast out a demon and Jesus said that this type would need fasting and prayer.
Non-believer question: if the 12 had authority to cast out demons is there any evidence that Judas was able to do it? Probably not since his heart wasn't pure. So does that make Jesus wrong? Or does it mean that the 12 were imparted with spiritual understanding and Judas decided not to follow it?
moorea944
Well-Known Member
Well, I think when you have a verse like, "whoever believes in me shall be saved", people intend to believe "that is all you have to do". So when we think like that, we have to throw away all of the other words of Jesus and the apostles about savation. Plus, verses like this does not say.... "All you have to do is.....". Doesnt say that.
So "what else" does the bible say about being saved. What does save us? Belief, that is the first thing we must do.
1. Belief
2. Baptism
3. Proven Faith
4. Endurance
5. Truth
6. Hope
7. Fear
Rev 22 "And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be."
Romans 2 "But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds:"
2 Cor 5 "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad."
Once again we are warned that judgement for salvation will be based on what we have done, how we have demonstrated our professed faith in action. There is no magic phrase that eliminates all doubt.
Matthew 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Mathew 16 "For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works."
People want the easy way out. Just belief and I"m saved. Now I can go and still live my life the way I want too and dont worry about anything, I"m know saved because I believe in Jesus. Doesnt work like that....
James even says that without works, your faith is dead.... I'll show you my faith by my works....
So "what else" does the bible say about being saved. What does save us? Belief, that is the first thing we must do.
1. Belief
2. Baptism
3. Proven Faith
4. Endurance
5. Truth
6. Hope
7. Fear
Rev 22 "And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be."
Romans 2 "But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds:"
2 Cor 5 "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad."
Once again we are warned that judgement for salvation will be based on what we have done, how we have demonstrated our professed faith in action. There is no magic phrase that eliminates all doubt.
Matthew 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Mathew 16 "For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works."
People want the easy way out. Just belief and I"m saved. Now I can go and still live my life the way I want too and dont worry about anything, I"m know saved because I believe in Jesus. Doesnt work like that....
James even says that without works, your faith is dead.... I'll show you my faith by my works....
Do you have an answer in there anywhere or just "believing" on someone's quote?
Cant get any Christian to admit to that 'mud, unless someone posts against their cult teaching. Ya know if yer tag line doesn't have the "Big C" at the bottom yer not respected nor do you deserve answers to simple questions....Don't Cha Know?
steveb1
Member
This citation from John's Gospel seems possibly Jesus' words...but as everyone knows, John is a maverick Gospel which contains "oddball" words and works of Jesus not recorded in the other (Synoptic) Gospels. But the pertinent question to ask is, "did Jesus say things like this, but in other wording?" The answer is Yes - the Synoptic Gospels all have their "Johannine meteorites" in which Jesus speaks like John's Jesus, and explicates his identity as does John's Jesus.
The main problem here - quite aside from the mythicist meme - is theological, i.e., when Jesus makes claims to "high" christology, is he claiming to be God? I think not, because John's Jesus is God's unique "son" and messianic agent. As such, God has deputized Jesus to represent God and to do God's will. So, if God has deputized Jesus with God's own authority, then of course, a fully human Jesus can make the promises he makes in the OP's citation - all without being, or making claims to be, divine.
If, by God's decree, we come to him through his "Son" Jesus, we can accept this relationship in a non-Trinitarian sense.
Under this schema, it only makes sense that Jesus would promise that, even after he has ascended to the Father, his disciples will do equal and even greater things than Jesus himself had done, because elsewhere in John, Jesus asks God that his followers "be one, even as you and I, Father, are one". In Latin Christianity, this process is called Deificatio, and in Byzantine Christianity it is called Theosis, which means that human beings are called - in a very particular sense - to be one with God and, as 2 Peter says, "to partake in the Divine Nature". Jesus himself seems to be teaching this in the OP's citation, which is at least broadly consistent with Jesus' teaching in the other Gospels.
The only remaining question is whether Jesus was speaking authoritatively and truthfully, or whether he was deluded and merely speaking as a false prophet. But that is an issue for another thread.
Muffled
Jesus in me
I believe I didn't say the words are not for today ony that it is not as easy to believe as one might think.
TheInfiniteLight
Member
You have to understand that if you do the works of Jesus then you are in the Holy Spirit. Ask anything pertaining to the Holy Spirit and He shall do. Jesus also says, if you pray then you will be vindicated and the Holy Spirit will be sent to you by the Father. If you do works in the Holy Spirit then you are asking for the works of the Holy Spirit. Unity is key. One must be completely unified to the Holy Spirit in order for Jesus to do whatever is asked in His name.
Calling Jesus' word 'impossible BS' is not your unification to the Holy Spirit. For if one brings up doubt within one's own faith then that means you are not unified to the Holy Spirit.
Unification
Well-Known Member
The miracles: resurrection of dead, dead as in not physically but conscious separation. Separated, one is the walking dead. Physically alive but dead.
Healing the blind: not physically blind but blind to truth, blind to genuine love and peace, contentment, just/equality for all others, oneness.
The deaf: no matter what most hear, they don't want to listen to truth, ego self pride myths material are in way.
Feeding the 7000 and 5000, feeding the 12 cranial nerves with truth, love, peace, contentment, wisdom, knowledge, etc. ..BREAD.
When one has the Christ conscious of oneness, they don't ask for stupid things and not much, or in vain. They are realistic and out of pure and genuine love.
The works are simply transformation of mind and heart, and internally, which are the miracles.
Seeing a hateful, spiteful, bitter, angry, desirous, egotistical, judgemental, prideful, lustful individual completely transformed and changed internally is the miracle.
Unification
Well-Known Member
Just as everything inside of us is equipped to forgive others, love others, be peaceable to others, crucify self/ego at the place of the skull, lay down ones life for others(selfless acts for others), tell the religious prideful teachers and leaders of today they are wrong and err, turn deceit and lies into wisdom and knowledge and truth, get rid of the things that cause suffering in our lives, clean out the cobwebs from our minds, eyes, ears to see and listen to truth and love and peace, turn darkness into light, turn wanting more into contentment and rest, escape the burdens of past and mistakes and bitterness into freedom of mind, tame the tongue from speaking lies, following the crowd to fit in, we are all equipped internally to do all of those works and much more.
I do not understand the question.
If the Kingdom of Heaven is inside, and one enters through meditation, the mind gets stilled and the heart is open, (praying), one then becomes one with the Father. Once experienced one finds what Jesus said to be true.
In "Hinduism" and "Buddhism" it has been known that meditators can cultivate Siddhi powers. The Nine Main Siddhis Plus Eight Additional Siddhis Whether or not one decides to practice them is another matter, as 'I believe' that most enlightened masters tell their disciples not to get stuck at that level. I know of some such miracles, but they will probably be labelled as anecdotal; but as one concerns my mother having done 'a small miracle' (outside the understanding of a logical, rational, mind), I have no reason to doubt her. The mind is a powerful thing when put under control and it can do things beyond the imaginings of reason.
As far as mind science goes, consider the pendulum one holds in one's hand and makes go forward and back and clockwise or counter clockwise. Can it be done or not? Are the people who do it unconsciously fooling themselves into believing that they are doing it? Explain hypnosis to me. Are they consciously moving it back and forth? Can it be done if the cord is over a foot long? What about 2, 3, 4 or 5 feet? Wouldn't a long cord make it obvious that one is doing it consciously since it will take a whole lot of more force be applied at the finger tips? That's not to say that one can start 'doing' a long pendulum, any more than one can lift one's own barbell weight the very first time one tries. Starting small one can work themselves up to greater possibilities.
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