rosends
Well-Known Member
They determined it in each place by looking at when the sun set and when the stars came out. Same way we still figure it now.
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How do Jews feel about their theology seeming to be outdated?
- Thread starter Zog Has-fallen
- Start date
Zog Has-fallen
A Christian Truther
Then let's have some learned Rabbis answer my questions and let's see what happens.
rosends
Well-Known Member
they already have. You just don't like it.
Zog Has-fallen
A Christian Truther
What was their answer to my question about hypothetical Jewish travelers 50 miles west and 50 miles east of Jerusalem in ancient times? Were these travelers required to keep the Sabbath and how was the Sabbath to be determined at these locations?
rosends
Well-Known Member
The sabbath starts when the sun goes down (approx) where ever a person is. It ends when the night falls the next night, wherever the person is. I don't see what the problem is. People are not tethered to one time zone regardless of their location. If someone walks five feet to the left or right, he figures the beginning or end of the sabbath based on where he is. Why do you fight this?
Zog Has-fallen
A Christian Truther
That's exactly what I've assumed. And you didn't notice all the opposition I received about this?
Levite
Higher and Higher
Years of learning and experience, eh? How many years of learning focused on Judaism and Jewish Law? How many on how Jews read the Tanach? Did you even learn Hebrew? How about Aramaic? What rabbis did you study with? Do you even know where to find relevant discussions of these issues in the Talmud and the Codes?
Because if you tell me your years of learning and experience were spent learning Christian scripture and commentary, or finding wacky math formulas online someplace, then you are telling me your "years of learning and experience" have zero relevance to what you are talking about.
And, for the record, there are two rabbis and at least one fine Jewish scholar who have commented on this thread to correct your erroneous thinking, who actually do have years of learning and experience that are relevant to this subject.
roger1440
I do stuff
How do Jews feel about their theology seeming to be outdated?
Yeah, what’s up with them Jews anyway? Believing in some hot Jewish chick being knocked up by God is sooooo much more up to date. Let’s not forget he rose from the dead three days later and no one seemed to care about writing about it except a couple of country bumpkins in rural Israel. You would think after all these years they would wise up. Christians have been telling Jews how to interpret their own scripture for nearly 2000 years. You would think they would catch on by now.
Yeah, what’s up with them Jews anyway? Believing in some hot Jewish chick being knocked up by God is sooooo much more up to date. Let’s not forget he rose from the dead three days later and no one seemed to care about writing about it except a couple of country bumpkins in rural Israel. You would think after all these years they would wise up. Christians have been telling Jews how to interpret their own scripture for nearly 2000 years. You would think they would catch on by now.
Flankerl
Well-Known Member
Harmonious
Well-Known Member
I don't intend to hang about in this fest of ridiculousness. However...
I feel that it's necessary to explain that Zog is talking about time on an analogue or digital watch, keeping 12 or 24 hour time.
That is NEVER how Jews figure out when Shabbat is. (Yes, people who are knowledgeable have been saying this, and Zog doesn't get it. Understood.)
Still... The verses in question talk about evening.
Zog, it might be news to you, but it isn't the clock that we measure "when is Shabbat?", although it is rather useful. It is "when is 18 minutes before sundown." That changes from location to location, time zone to time zone, and whatever. That is for starters.
Second, some of the complications you have mentioned is what makes it difficult to travel before a holiday. But the thing is that Jews who observe Shabbat and our Biblical holidays (with the exception of Purim, and that is only because it was not mentioned outright in the Pentateuch) do not travel. So, wherever we are, we acknowledge sundown when we see it. The time on the clock is a mere convenience, because calculating the point when sundown is sufficient for Shabbat or a holiday to begin is tricky, if you aren't good at measuring time by the sun.
Any other method of "deciding when Shabbat is" based on 24-hour days is ridiculous, because that isn't a Jewish measure of time. Therefore, days in the summer are longer than days in the winter. It's not 24 hours.
Besides... Your "7 days from when you started" game ONLY works if you manage to be alone and you lost track of days. It means nothing for folks who are in civilization and can keep track of days and times.
Wherever you are, Friday is Friday, and when the sun sets, Shabbat begins. When it gets dark, or "you see three stars in the sky" on Saturday night, Shabbat ends. (It gets more complicated for latitudes above the Arctic Circle and below the Antarctic Circle, on the open sea, or in space, but the article that rosends cited explains things in far more detail.)
I refuse to waste more brainpower or energy on a fellow who is trying to tell me that Jews don't know what we are doing because he found a clever game with time that has nothing to do with Jewish law.
I feel that it's necessary to explain that Zog is talking about time on an analogue or digital watch, keeping 12 or 24 hour time.
That is NEVER how Jews figure out when Shabbat is. (Yes, people who are knowledgeable have been saying this, and Zog doesn't get it. Understood.)
Still... The verses in question talk about evening.
Zog, it might be news to you, but it isn't the clock that we measure "when is Shabbat?", although it is rather useful. It is "when is 18 minutes before sundown." That changes from location to location, time zone to time zone, and whatever. That is for starters.
Second, some of the complications you have mentioned is what makes it difficult to travel before a holiday. But the thing is that Jews who observe Shabbat and our Biblical holidays (with the exception of Purim, and that is only because it was not mentioned outright in the Pentateuch) do not travel. So, wherever we are, we acknowledge sundown when we see it. The time on the clock is a mere convenience, because calculating the point when sundown is sufficient for Shabbat or a holiday to begin is tricky, if you aren't good at measuring time by the sun.
Any other method of "deciding when Shabbat is" based on 24-hour days is ridiculous, because that isn't a Jewish measure of time. Therefore, days in the summer are longer than days in the winter. It's not 24 hours.
Besides... Your "7 days from when you started" game ONLY works if you manage to be alone and you lost track of days. It means nothing for folks who are in civilization and can keep track of days and times.
Wherever you are, Friday is Friday, and when the sun sets, Shabbat begins. When it gets dark, or "you see three stars in the sky" on Saturday night, Shabbat ends. (It gets more complicated for latitudes above the Arctic Circle and below the Antarctic Circle, on the open sea, or in space, but the article that rosends cited explains things in far more detail.)
I refuse to waste more brainpower or energy on a fellow who is trying to tell me that Jews don't know what we are doing because he found a clever game with time that has nothing to do with Jewish law.
Zog Has-fallen
A Christian Truther
So if our hypothetical enablers of Christ's crucifixion were to flee the crime scene at the end of Passion Week, marked by the setting of the sun, then they could easily continue to keep the Sabbath marked by every seventh setting of the sun as these respective groups migrated both east and west.
psychoslice
Veteran Member
I think many thinking Christians know that the Sabbath is the seventh day of the week, being Saturday, but they are just using excuses to get out of it and make it sound like its all Ok to worship on the first day of the week, Sunday, but its not Ok, that is if you believe in your bible. Jesus never did away with the Sabbath, he himself rested after being crucified on the Sabbath, and rosed on the first day of the week, Sunday, so swallow your pride Christians and do the right thing.
Ah you mean the Romans..... umm i am not sure they kept the Sabbath .... ever ...
As for the Judeans ... we had nothing to do with that myth christos
Desert Snake
Veteran Member
Sabbath is arbitrary. If it wasn't, it would all conform to the traditional Hebrew calendar, set at Jerusalem time. So, actually, your incorrect. Sunday is the Sabbath if you count from Monday, which is traditional in the western world/calendar.
Shad
Veteran Member
Datelines are arbitrary. We could move it and it wouldn't really matter. More so in order to west/east movement to actually skip a day one would need to travel around 1670km/h going east and double going west in order to overcome the Earth's rotational speed. There is also the issue with relativity and time dilation with moving objects confirmed by east/west movement in the Hafele/Heating experiment. A hypothetical person traveling at a speed will experience a 24 hour period while a person that is external to this movement could experience two 24 hour periods. Really this comes down to the confuse over an almost arbitrary basis of time keeping with time itself as a property of physics.
psychoslice
Veteran Member
don't think so, just another excuse, the Jews have been keeping the Sabbath a lot longer than the Christians, and they are more expert at knowing when it is, if you want to know when the Sabbath should be kept, then ask a Jew, easy.
Curious George
Veteran Member
I already explained this with my gremlins/moguai post...jk
Desert Snake
Veteran Member
Yep, that's why Sunday Sabbath is legit.
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