An Angel of Light

Satan can mask Himself as an Angel of light. Even our* fruits can be masked. Our feelings. Even our conviction that we* will be saved. The Bible "says" that Christians who believe in Christ will know the Father. Yet, even the Bible is an external text we iternalize. If it is all through us, our fruits, convictions, and interpretations, then we "could be" decieved. Illusions look real but they are not. Some of us hear things that do not exist. It is not physchosis. We're not crazy.

What makes us think our beliefs are real when they can be masked as angels of light?


*Our and we for sake of thread not myself included

Carlita said:

Satan can mask Himself as an Angel of light. Even our* fruits can be masked. Our feelings. Even our conviction that we* will be saved. The Bible "says" that Christians who believe in Christ will know the Father. Yet, even the Bible is an external text we iternalize. If it is all through us, our fruits, convictions, and interpretations, then we "could be" decieved. Illusions look real but they are not. Some of us hear things that do not exist. It is not physchosis. We're not crazy.

What makes us think our beliefs are real when they can be masked as angels of light?


*Our and we for sake of thread not myself included

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Is there a further point to made here?

Are you suggesting our efforts guarantee us absolutely nothing? Or perhaps you are looking for a reason not to have to believe in anything or follow any strictures?

I submit there is far enough empirical evidence for Jesus Christ. I also submit certain manifestations and miracles are beyond reproach. God is not that sadistic He would enjoy watching the whole world wallow in total confusion for no good. He has surely limited Satan's powers.

Carlita said:

What makes us think our beliefs are real when they can be masked as angels of light?

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People get fooled a lot. Over and over again. Each time you try to learn a little more and try not to get fooled the next time. You get fooled so many times, you can begin to question your ability to determine the truth of anything. However there is no choice except to carry on as best as one can. Presuming at least the truth of your intentions.

And in the end, maybe you end up being the fool, but I don't know, I guess you can take pride in that you gave it your best shot.

Carlita said:

Satan can mask Himself as an Angel of light. Even our* fruits can be masked. Our feelings. Even our conviction that we* will be saved. The Bible "says" that Christians who believe in Christ will know the Father. Yet, even the Bible is an external text we iternalize. If it is all through us, our fruits, convictions, and interpretations, then we "could be" decieved. Illusions look real but they are not. Some of us hear things that do not exist. It is not physchosis. We're not crazy.

What makes us think our beliefs are real when they can be masked as angels of light?


*Our and we for sake of thread not myself included

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When I was a Christian I was sometimes confused by the various different beliefs of the different denominations.
Were they wrong about xyz? Were others being deceived? Were we wrong? Were we being deceived?

I always fell back on my faith in Christ, and simply trusted God to sort out the details.
It is up to each of us to decide what we do with information we are given.

thau said:

God is not that sadistic He would enjoy watching the whole world wallow in total confusion for no good.

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So what do you think is the good that derives from god watching the whole world wallow in total confusion? My only guess is that it amuses him.

thau said:

Is there a further point to made here?

Are you suggesting our efforts guarantee us absolutely nothing? Or perhaps you are looking for a reason not to have to believe in anything or follow any strictures?

I submit there is far enough empirical evidence for Jesus Christ. I also submit certain manifestations and miracles are beyond reproach. God is not that sadistic He would enjoy watching the whole world wallow in total confusion for no good. He has surely limited Satan's powers.

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Um. There is no further point. Youre taking it personal. I can rephrase. What if OUR beliefs are masked as angels of light?

In my case, what IF my beliefs where false (there is no "angel of light" in view)

I was told that this question is sensitive because we depend on our beliefs. It they were false, I know people personally would die.

In a discuss, compare, and debate forum I figure people who want to reflect on it can take the heat, if not, Thats OKAY.

Nakosis said:

People get fooled a lot. Over and over again. Each time you try to learn a little more and try not to get fooled the next time. You get fooled so many times, you can begin to question your ability to determine the truth of anything. However there is no choice except to carry on as best as one can. Presuming at least the truth of your intentions.

And in the end, maybe you end up being the fool, but I don't know, I guess you can take pride in that you gave it your best shot.

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A fool's paradise? Nicely put

seekingtruth said:

When I was a Christian I was sometimes confused by the various different beliefs of the different denominations.
Were they wrong about xyz? Were others being deceived? Were we wrong? Were we being deceived?

I always fell back on my faith in Christ, and simply trusted God to sort out the details.
It is up to each of us to decide what we do with information we are given.

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That makes sense. Takes a lot of trust to keep the faith up.

Skwim said:

So what do you think is the good that derives from god watching the whole world wallow in total confusion? My only guess is that it amuses him.

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I can assure you, it is not as confusing as one might hope. For example, we all know stealing another man's purse is wrong, we do not need God to yell at us from the clouds that it is. So if we choose to live our lives for selfish purposes only with little care for our neighbor, we should not be surprised, if there is a God, that such measures will weigh against us.

Just because God has revealed more to certain segments does not exclude the rest. It is all fairly judged in the end.

thau said:

I can assure you, it is not as confusing as one might hope.

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"As one may hope"? Why would anyone hope for confusion? And you're the one who described the world situation as "total confusion."

For example, we all know stealing another man's purse is wrong, we do not need God to yell at us from the clouds that it is. So if we choose to live our lives for selfish purposes only with little care for our neighbor, we should not be surprised if there is a God it will weigh against us.

Just because God has revealed more to certain segments does not exclude the rest. It is all fairly judged in the end.

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I fail to see any relevance to "god letting the whole world wallow in total confusion." So, again I ask:

"What do you think is the good that derives from god watching the whole world wallow in total confusion?"

Carlita said:

Satan can mask Himself as an Angel of light. Even our* fruits can be masked. Our feelings. Even our conviction that we* will be saved. The Bible "says" that Christians who believe in Christ will know the Father. Yet, even the Bible is an external text we iternalize. If it is all through us, our fruits, convictions, and interpretations, then we "could be" decieved. Illusions look real but they are not. Some of us hear things that do not exist. It is not physchosis. We're not crazy.

What makes us think our beliefs are real when they can be masked as angels of light?


*Our and we for sake of thread not myself included

Click to expand...

I don't think that is quite what the Bible says. It does say Satan can transform himself into and angel of light and warns against deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons ( 1 Tim. 1:1-2) But believers are to test all things;hold fast to what is good. (1 Thess.5:21) by holding to sound doctrine ( 1 Tim. 1:10; 2 Tim. 4:3;Titus 1:9, 2:1) Those who belong to Jesus Christ and test all things by His word do not need to fear deception and can know and be assured of eternal life

These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.( 1 John 5:13)

And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us an understanding, that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life. (1 John 5:20)

Carlita said:

Satan can mask Himself as an Angel of light. Even our* fruits can be masked. Our feelings. Even our conviction that we* will be saved. The Bible "says" that Christians who believe in Christ will know the Father. Yet, even the Bible is an external text we iternalize. If it is all through us, our fruits, convictions, and interpretations, then we "could be" decieved. Illusions look real but they are not. Some of us hear things that do not exist. It is not physchosis. We're not crazy.

What makes us think our beliefs are real when they can be masked as angels of light?


*Our and we for sake of thread not myself included

Click to expand...

Sorry, that kind of argument strikes me as Satan Paranoia.

If christians are being decieved, by what method can they test the spirits if the spirits are the deception? Assuming, in this thread only, that christians could be decieved, dont know it, and may be testing the spirits of their illusion with their illusions.

InChrist said:

I don't think that is quite what the Bible says. It does say Satan can transform himself into and angel of light and warns against deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons ( 1 Tim. 1:1-2) But believers are to test all things;hold fast to what is good. (1 Thess.5:21) by holding to sound doctrine ( 1 Tim. 1:10; 2 Tim. 4:3;Titus 1:9, 2:1) Those who belong to Jesus Christ and test all things by His word do not need to fear deception and can know and be assured of eternal life

These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.( 1 John 5:13)

And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us an understanding, that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life. (1 John 5:20)

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George-ananda said:

Sorry, that kind of argument strikes me as Satan Paranoia.

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I wanna laugh. Ha. How so?

Carlita said:

Um. There is no further point. Youre taking it personal. I can rephrase. What if OUR beliefs are masked as angels of light?

In my case, what IF my beliefs where false (there is no "angel of light" in view)

I was told that this question is sensitive because we depend on our beliefs. It they were false, I know people personally would die.

In a discuss, compare, and debate forum I figure people who want to reflect on it can take the heat, if not, Thats OKAY.

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Well if I found out my beliefs were false I would be shocked, and great despair.

For others, I expect a good many of them would simply convert.

But that would be rare because I doubt many ever come to that realization. IOW, not all that many in the mainstream religions of this world ever convert, because they never realize they were mistaken. So why is this a big concern of yours? Christians (by far and large) are not going to ever realize they are wrong, the evidence is far too strong in our favor. Many just drift away from caring about their faith much, but not because they think another is more true.


But to be told in strong language they are wrong, that would be a different matter. Many will become resentful because they cannot defend themselves.

Of course upon death we will all be surprised in some ways, but not because we find out Jesus was not God or Savior. No, sorry, that won’t happen.

Carlita said:

If christians are being decieved, by what method can they test the spirits if the spirits are the deception? Assuming, in this thread only, that christians could be decieved, dont know it, and may be testing the spirits of their illusion with their illusions.

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I believe all spiritual teachings must be tested as to whether they line up with the scriptures or are contrary, in which case they are false, deceptive teachings.

I think discernment is not so much about "how some teaching seems to work or some experience seems so real, so it must be true" but "what is the "truth" being communicated." All that a Bible-believing Christian can do in determining the truth of a matter is to be vigilant by "searching the Scriptures" to see if what is being presented is true to the full counsel of God's Word (Acts:17:11). If we don't do that, whether we are young believers or mature in the faith, we are just as vulnerable to false teachings as those whose circumstances have directly opened them to deceptive experiences.

I think a believer's life in Christ is shaped by a great many experiences that the God allows for our growth in Him. It begins with believing the gospel and trusting Jesus as Savior, to which sound doctrine is added. As we abide in Christ and His word, our discernment will increase, thus protecting us from "being carried about with every wind of doctrine" (Ephesians:4:14).

Skwim said:

"As one may hope"? Why would anyone hope for confusion? And you're the one who described the world situation as "total confusion."

I fail to see any relevance to "god letting the whole world wallow in total confusion." So, again I ask:

"What do you think is the good that derives from god watching the whole world wallow in total confusion?"

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This is what I said ---- " God is not that sadistic He would enjoy watching the whole world wallow in total confusion for no good."

In other words, God is not letting the world wallow in confusion, even if many are. God has communicated His divine will and purpose for our lives in no uncertain terms. For God not to have done that would be senseless and cruel. That is not to say that He is not merciful to the ignorant, He surely is.

InChrist said:

I believe all spiritual teachings must be tested as to whether they line up with the scriptures or are contrary, in which case they are false, deceptive teachings.

I think discernment is not so much about "how some teaching seems to work or some experience seems so real, so it must be true" but "what is the "truth" being communicated." All that a Bible-believing Christian can do in determining the truth of a matter is to be vigilant by "searching the Scriptures" to see if what is being presented is true to the full counsel of God's Word (Acts:17:11). If we don't do that, whether we are young believers or mature in the faith, we are just as vulnerable to false teachings as those whose circumstances have directly opened them to deceptive experiences.

I think a believer's life in Christ is shaped by a great many experiences that the God allows for our growth in Him. It begins with believing the gospel and trusting Jesus as Savior, to which sound doctrine is added. As we abide in Christ and His word, our discernment will increase, thus protecting us from "being carried about with every wind of doctrine" (Ephesians:4:14).

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I understand that. Its more, IF your belief is false then you are using illusionary methods to proove whether the illusion comes from a good source or bad source. The Source is Also the illusion (angel of light)

If you ask someone who medically hears voices that are not there, she will say yes. If I asked her to "test the spirits" and see if she realizes the voices are fake, she will and can only test it within her own bias or delusion. Everything from what she reads, hear people say, etc, for Her would confirm true the reality of hearing something that does not exist in general.

In other words, if christians are believing in a dellusion or, more specifc, satan, and they read the bible it will coincide with their world view.

You need something outside of the dellusion itself to test if it is true. We dont know that, because people in scripture claim the same thing christians do now.

Scripture is not a good tool for dicernment between light and darkness. If their beliefs are masked as angels of light, the source of their dillusions wont differ from the delusions themselves.

Carlita said:

I understand that. Its more, IF your belief is false then you are using illusionary methods to proove whether the illusion comes from a good source or bad source. The Source is Also the illusion (angel of light)

If you ask someone who medically hears voices that are not there, she will say yes. If I asked her to "test the spirits" and see if she realizes the voices are fake, she will and can only test it within her own bias or delusion. Everything from what she reads, hear people say, etc, for Her would confirm true the reality of hearing something that does not exist in general.

In other words, if christians are believing in a dellusion or, more specifc, satan, and they read the bible it will coincide with their world view.

You need something outside of the dellusion itself to test if it is true. We dont know that, because people in scripture claim the same thing christians do now.

Scripture is not a good tool for dicernment between light and darkness. If their beliefs are masked as angels of light, the source of their dillusions wont differ from the delusions themselves.

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So what you are saying is that there is nothing outside of a relgion’s holy books or predetermined beliefs that can be used as a way of proving it to be true. Or at least, up until now you do not know or agree anything has been demonstrated.

Well you can probably stand on that for a very long time if you are waiting for Jesus to appear in His glorified body at the foot of your bed. As far as I am concerned, God has manifested His truth in supernatural inexplicable ways countless times.

What is odd to me is you keep using Satan as the author of the deception. That would imply the reality of God as well. And if so, still you suggest God may have shown none of His creation anything that really is important for us to know or rely on. Quite a strange hypothetical.

When taken personally, then yes, it would be strange and not make sense. Since we cant disatach ourselves from our beliefs, its hard to ask religious questions on a one hundred percent non personal level.

thau said:

So what you are saying is that there is nothing outside of a relgion’s holy books or predetermined beliefs that can be used as a way of proving it to be true.

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Actually, for specific religions, yes. It is based on belief not fact. You cant believe something into reality. We have our beliefs. Anything we read, see, hear etc will always be filteres by our bias. If it is not objective, (true for all people), then its based on personal experience.

For example, when I see a tree, Gods name is not wrotten on it so I know which God made that three. Nichiren Diashonin, a buddhist monk, said in prison that the Japanese war in his era were predictions that came true from Shakayamuni Buddha. There was actually a war set in history. The guy did exist. He was supposed to be beheaded and by the mystic law (law of the Buddha), he was saved. These events did happen.

Where they evidence that prophecies came true? No. Thats sychronicity. What about his almost beheading? Coincidence? Depends on the believer. The monk is not alive to state his testimony.

Exact same thing with the Bible. We have outside proof that the claim exist. We dont have proof beyond it being our belief, our guesses, or trying to sychronize "mystical" events that can never be varied by the actual person who experienced it.

thau said:

Well you can probably stand on that for a very long time if you are waiting for Jesus to appear in His glorified body at the foot of your bed. As far as I am concerned, God has manifested His truth in supernatural inexplicable ways countless times.

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Its an observation. The tone is unpleasant. We have differing beliefs and that is okay.

thau said:

What is odd to me is you keep using Satan as the author of the deception. That would imply the reality of God as well. And if so, still you suggest God may have shown none of His creation anything that really is important for us to know or rely on. Quite a strange hypothetical.

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Yes. Exactly. Satan (concept not entity) or angel of light creating belief in christians that are false.

Satan is said fool people to think they are worshiping the right God.

The concept of being decieved is my point not the deciever.