Watchtower Governing Body: Are They The Exclusive Channel For God??

savagewind said:

The lie is Jesus never did make himself equal with God.

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I think you mean the truth is, Jesus never did make himself equal with God.

John 8:54 "Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:"

Either that or you mean, "Their lie is evident in the fact that Jesus never did make himself equal with God."

savagewind said:

The Old Covenant and The New Covenant are not The Old Testament and The New Testament but means the spirit of the messages found in each. True?

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Yes, that is true. So in effect we are then letting the spirit on God's word do the interpreting.

But we must use the entire source of God's words for they were designed of him to do the agreeing for us. We don't really need to say, "I agree."

We only need to say, "I accept it."

Mountain_Climber said:

Yes, that is true. So in effect we are then letting the spirit on God's word do the interpreting.

But we must use the entire source of God's words for they were designed of him to do the agreeing for us. We don't really need to say, "I agree."

We only need to say, "I accept it."

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What does "use the entire source" mean?

savagewind said:

What does "use the entire source" mean?

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Both the Old Covenant revealings and the New Covenant revealings.

For example:

Jesus said, Matthew 15:17 "Do not ye yet understand, that whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth into the belly, and is cast out into the draught?"

And Jesus said, Matthew 15:11 "Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man."

But Jesus also said:
Matthew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Now that would be very confusing to one who has no understanding of that Old Law Covenant. Which, believe it or not, most Jews don't really understand that Old Law Covenant today. They think they do, but because they leave of the spirit of the New Covenant, they cannot even understand the very Law Covenant their ancestors were a part of. They don't get that understanding handed down to them by means of their verbal opinions and traditions, for those are but the interference of their flesh trying to interpret that Old Law for themselves. If they really would understand that Old Law they need to allow Jesus and his disciples to explain it to them, but they are no more willing to do that today than were in the first century or for that matter than they have ever been. For they have always ignored the counsel of God's prophets in favor of seeing things as they desired to see them by means of what they believed was their own righteousness.

Romans 10:2-3 "For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God."

And we still find a huge number of Christians who trust in the word of Jews, oblivious to the ignorance of God's righteousness they are placing their trust in.

Some would even object to what I have just said, claiming that the fact they fell short of knowing God's righteousness does not mean they did not know their Law.

How foolish can they be? God's righteousness was the spirit of that Old Law. If they did not know God's righteousness it was impossible for them to really know that Old Law. And so what one gets apart from understanding God's righteousness in that Law, is a highly twisted understanding of that Old Law.

Even Jehovah's Witnesses fail in this regard.They have adopted the idea that the commandments to abstain from eating certain meats was for reasons of a physical health code. There are far too many inconsistencies with that theory. And the NWT mistranslates Deuteronomy 12:15 in an effort to force their incorrect view on the words of the Law, as do many others, all because they are inept of understanding.

djhwoodwerks said:

*** jv chap. 28 p. 626 Testing and Sifting From Within ***
Many who were sifted out at that time clung to the view that a single individual, Charles Taze Russell, was the “faithful and wise servant” foretold by Jesus at Matthew 24:45-47 (KJ), which servant would distribute spiritual food to the household of faith. Particularly following his death, The Watch Tower itself set forth this view for a number of years. In view of the prominent role that Brother Russell had played, it appeared to the Bible Students of that time that this was the case.

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yes, as I said 'to some degree'

But obviously the Watchtower has taken on a life of its own. It is not confined to the views of one man. As a chanel for dispensing spiritual food, it is very progressive and it adjusts its views when needed. And if God really is directing things, then that is what we should expect to see because people can be wrong in their views as was the case with some of the views of the early bible students.

katiemygirl said:

Pegg, one thing I can't seem to learn from the JW website is that when you or other JW's say "death," as you did in your above statement, do you mean physical or spiritual death? I'm assuming you mean physical death.

No one is saved from physical death in this life, nor was such a thing promised by Jehovah. We all die!

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Yes, physical death is exactly what we I meant.

Physical death was a consequence of sin. Adam was plainly told that if he ate from the tree, he would die. This implies that death was not a natural process for the man. I was the result of disobedience.

And that is why so many bible writers spoke of the hope to live forever. For example:

Job 14:14 If a man dies, can he live again?+ I will wait all the days of my compulsory service
Until my relief comes.+15 You will call, and I will answer you.+You will long* for the work of your hands.

Daniel 12:13 But as for you, go on to the end. You will rest, but you will stand up for your lot* at the end of the days.”

Luke 10:25 Now look! a man versed in the Law stood up to test him and said: “Teacher,what do I need to do to inherit everlasting life?”

Death was a punishment for sin...removing the punishment of sin would result in the gift of life. But a sinner cannot remove the punishment for sin....only God can. But God has not removed the death penalty from any sinner....not even his most faithful servants.

katiemygirl said:

To me, salvation means saved from spiritual death, which is separation from God. We can be spiritually dead in this life (as the majority of people are), and sin is what causes that separation. We can be made alive, forgiven, regenerated and saved, by believing Jesus is the Son of God NOW.

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I guess if you dont believe that death is a punishment, it could be easy to view it as natural. and if thats the case, then sure, the verses you mention would have to be refering to spiritual death. But I dont believe the bible portrays death as natural. It is described even by christians as an enemy and God promises to remove it. He can remove physical death because that is within his capability to do.... but could he remove a so-called 'spiritual death' if the decision to sin is ours to make?. If we choose to sin, God is not going to stop us. He gave us free will, which means he will not interfere with our decisions. So do you think he will remove free-will so we cannot sin anymore???

katiemygirl said:

Yes, it is in the world to come, that we will never die. Physical death, sickness and all the misery of this world will be no more. This is why we're told not to store our treasures up on this earth, but in heaven, which is pretty much the same as what Paul wrote to Timothy in the verse you cited above.

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Have you considered that the 'world to come' is actually speaking about our earth?

I'll explain why we view the 'world to come' as this very earth we are born into.
In the book of revelation 21 verse 3 speaks of the time when God will be with mankind and they will be his people. Of that time, Verses 4, 5: says “He will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away. And the One seated on the throne said: ‘Look! I am making all things new.’

Some people view this passage of scripture as describing what life will be life in heaven. But if we look at vs 4 and 5 it says 'the former things have passed away'
Did death pain and mourning ever exist in heaven?
We would say no. The only place where death existed was on earth. But now John sees an earth where all those things have 'passed away', they are no more.

And this is why we promote the paradise earth so much. The promises of God are that the whole earth will be a paradise where mankind will be restored to everlasting life and they will reside forever on a cleansed 'new' earth.

Mountain_Climber said:

His thought pertains directly and only to the position of highest authority granted Jesus as God's true chosen one. And I mean ONE. For no salvation exists for anyone but in that ONE.

Acts 2:36 "Therefore, let all the house of Israel know for a certainty that God made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you executed on a stake.”

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No, i meant why do you think the statement that 'david did not ascend to the heavens' was made?

"Pegg, post: 4324243, member: 23994"]Yes, physical death is exactly what we I meant.

Physical death was a consequence of sin. Adam was plainly told that if he ate from the tree, he would die. This implies that death was not a natural process for the man. I was the result of disobedience.

And that is why so many bible writers spoke of the hope to live forever. For example:

Job 14:14 If a man dies, can he live again?+ I will wait all the days of my compulsory service
Until my relief comes.+15 You will call, and I will answer you.+You will long* for the work of your hands.

Daniel 12:13 But as for you, go on to the end. You will rest, but you will stand up for your lot* at the end of the days.”

Luke 10:25 Now look! a man versed in the Law stood up to test him and said: “Teacher,what do I need to do to inherit everlasting life?”

Death was a punishment for sin...removing the punishment of sin would result in the gift of life. But a sinner cannot remove the punishment for sin....only God can. But God has not removed the death penalty from any sinner....not even his most faithful servants.

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Agree! Thanks for clarifying.

I guess if you dont believe that death is a punishment, it could be easy to view it as natural. and if thats the case, then sure, the verses you mention would have to be refering to spiritual death. But I dont believe the bible portrays death as natural. It is described even by christians as an enemy and God promises to remove it. He can remove physical death because that is within his capability to do.... but could he remove a so-called 'spiritual death' if the decision to sin is ours to make?. If we choose to sin, God is not going to stop us. He gave us free will, which means he will not interfere with our decisions. So do you think he will remove free-will so we cannot sin anymore???

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I believe exactly as you do. Physical death is a punishment, and it is a result of sin.

You said "so-called spiritual death."

What term or phrase would you use to describe someone who is dead in their trespasses and sins? In the following verses, Paul says God made alive those who were dead in their sins. We know Paul is not speaking of a physical death and resurrection here. We know the opposite of alive is dead. What death is Paul writing about if not physical?

“And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins,” (Eph. 2:1)

“When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins” (Col. 2:13)

We know that God told Adam that in the day he ate of the forbidden fruit he would “surely die.” Adam disobeyed, but he did not physically die that day. God does not lie. So what death did Adam & Eve experience?

Mountain_Climber said:

Well, be that as it may be, when you pick up your Bible you have two very thorough witnesses right in your hand. Now you can get lost in trying to be an intellectual if you wish, and keep on searching for two other more highly sophisticated witnesses if that is what you desire to do.

As for me, I choose not to overlook the two powerful witnesses I hold right in my hand. And I know that rather than for me to try to reinterpret scripture all I need do is to search for the truth in their agreement like searching for hid treasures. I do not interpret treasure. When I find it I know what it is because those two witnesses have agreed and thus pinpointed that treasure for me. All I am left to do is to either accept or reject it. They have interpreted for me by their agreeing upon it.

Unfortunately, many are caught in the trap of using their own wisdom and are rewriting the Bible without even realizing that is what they are doing..

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I am not one who spends time trying to figure out the symbolic language of Revelation. I do not obsess about end times.

Things like armageddon, beasts, etc. never enter my mind. I know that I will be with my Lord in the end. My focus is on trying to be a good christian and spreading the gospel to as many people as I can.

kjw47 said:

Yes they are--- there is 0 doubt in all of creation.

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Please prove the GB is God's exclusive channel.

kjw47 said:

Jesus teaches he has a God( John 20:17, Rev 3:12)--do you teach God has a God? you will have to if you think Jesus is God. And if God has a God then there is more than one God in your teaching.

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If you want to debate this topic, you need to start a thread.

Pegg said:

No, i meant why do you think the statement that 'david did not ascend to the heavens' was made?

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Th real answer to that, Pegg, has to do with Peter's having had in mind the same thing which was spoken in the Old Law and referenced by Paul, here:

Romans 10:6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above:_)
7 Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)
8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

Take time and ponder that.

katiemygirl said:

I am not one who spends time trying to figure out the symbolic language of Revelation. I do not obsess about end times.

Things like armageddon, beasts, etc. never enter my mind. I know that I will be with my Lord in the end. My focus is on trying to be a good christian and spreading the gospel to as many people as I can.

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Well, your are right that we can be perfect in knowledge and yet have no secured salvation if we are not also perfect in love. For it is our love of God which keeps us unable to be separated from Christ by making us dear to Jesus' heart, being as he will never despise those who love his Father, as he himself was all about.

Yes, that is how Romans 8:38-39 is properly understood.

Mountain_Climber said:

Well, your are right that we can be perfect in knowledge and yet have no secured salvation if we are not also perfect in love. For it is our love of God which keeps us unable to be separated from Christ by making us dear to Jesus' heart, being as he will never despise those who love his Father, as he himself was all about.

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So true MC! We can have all the knowledge in the world, but without love, that knowledge is worthless.

I pray you have a good day.

Good morning/evening everyone.

djhwoodwerks said:

Good morning/evening everyone.

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And to you as well dj! It is 10:05 a.m here in the sunshine state of Florida. It is night time for Pegg.

Mountain_Climber said:

Th real answer to that, Pegg, has to do with Peter's having had in mind the same thing which was spoken in the Old Law and referenced by Paul, here:

Romans 10:6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above:_)
7 Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)
8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

Take time and ponder that.

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A sloppy translation is Romans 10: 9,10

It says if you confess with the mouth that Jesus is Lord and confess with the mouth it means your salvation....everyone who believes on him will be saved.

How about this? If you publically declare the things spoken [to] you as concerning the Lord Jesus Christ and believe it in your heart [all he is teaching us] because he is raised from the dead you will be ensured salvation.

Jesus is The Word. The power isn't in the person of Jesus. It is in the words which are ours for salvation.

Tell me please; if believing Jesus Christ is lord and savior and telling it is what saves a person, how does God make that grow? How does God add to it?

1 Cor 3: 6 I planted, Apollos watered, but God was causing the growth. 7So then neither the one who plants nor the one who waters is anything, but God who causes the growth.

Matthew 13:12 Whoever has will be given more, and they will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what they have will be taken from them.

Pegg said:

And if God really is directing things, then that is what we should expect to see because people can be wrong in their views as was the case with some of the views of the early bible students.

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"And if God really is directing things" - "because people can be wrong in their views."

How does that statement make any sense? Is God directing things, or, are they teaching their own views?

It has all to do with your first words, "And "IF" God "really is" directing things."

Please show me "ONE" error in teaching in the Bible that had to be clarified (light of truth got brighter) in a later chapter, by "ANY" of the imperfect men that was "SPIRIT DIRECTED".

Jesus Christ and the Word that God has spoken for salvation.

The same or different?

Is Jesus Christ and the Word that God has for us to know the same or two different aspects of salvation?

If Jesus Christ is The Word of God then The Word of God is Jesus Christ. Correct?

When it was written, "believe in Jesus Christ to be saved" did it mean Jesus Christ God or Jesus Christ The Word of God?