How Do You Understand The Gospel?

Great question , let me take you back a little bit ,the disciples observer Jesus praying and they new that their was something powerful about his prayers because Jesus spend more time praying than performing miracles this indicate to all of us that we must come closed to God and spend more time with him so we can understand his message and they ask Jesus Lord show us how to pray and he answer . Father who is in Haven hollowed be thy name
then he said Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.
He is telling us to ask the Father to glorified and manifest him self and his glory here on earth as he is in haven . Let me just help you understand the glory of God is manifested every time that you pray for some one and that person is cure or received God and understand his Kingdom message their is the Glory of God manifested every time that a blind person see the one who cant walk ,walks that is the Glory of God manifested on earth ,this is deep you need to have the desire to understand and to recesive this message their is so much more .
Mark 1-14
Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, 15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

The Lord's Prayer

(Luke 11:1-4)



5And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. 6But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

7But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking. 8Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.

9After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.

10Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.

11Give us this day our daily bread.

12And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.

13And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen. 14For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:15But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Proper Fasting

16Moreover when ye fast, be not, as the hypocrites, of a sad countenance: for they disfigure their faces, that they may appear unto men to fast. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. 17But thou, when thou fastest, anoint thine head, and wash thy face; 18That thou appear not unto men to fast, but unto thy Father which is in secret: and thy Father, which seeth in secret, shall reward thee openly.

lostwanderingsoul said:

what about the "Lord's Prayer" where it says thy kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as it is in Heaven. Jesus is looking for God's kingdom to come ON EARTH. that is why the Romans wanyed to kill Jesus because they thought He was going to set up a kingdom and overthrow the Roman government. God's kingdom will be on earth when Jesus returns to serve as King

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The millennial kingdom comes before the heavenly, eternal kingdom. You must recall how Abraham, Solomon, etc. were given territorial, land-based promises that haven't been fulfilled. Israel will be Jewish, greater in scope than now, ruled by King Jesus. King David will resurrect and be there. A 1,000 year reign of God on Earth, then disobedience and a final judgment before an eternal kingdom.

The cults and some "churches" love to reinterpret prophecy to kill the Jewish-led millennial kingdom. Remember also, the NT is written for three groups of people:

1. The Jewish people

2. Christian believers

3. Unbelievers

Once you say "the whole NT is for our church/cult" you destroy prophecy interpretations. WHAT BOOK do you give non-Christians to read? Why, the Bible, of course, so it can't be all for "us".

The 144,000 thousand people in Revelation are Jews, named by tribe. They aren't super-evangelists, raptured Christians, Jehovah's Witnesses, etc.

2 Samuel 8-12; 1 Chron 18-20

“I will also appoint a place for My people Israel and will plant them, that they may live in their own place and not be disturbed again, nor will the wicked afflict them any more as formerly, even from the day that I commanded judges to be over My people Israel; and I will give you rest from all your enemies. The LORD also declares to you that the LORD will make a house for you. “When your days are complete and you lie down with your fathers, I will raise up your descendant after you, who will come forth from you, and I will establish his kingdom. “He shall build a house for My name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever.” (2 Samuel 7:10–13)

Chronical 22- 6
6Then he called for Solomon his son, and charged him to build an house for the LORD God of Israel. 7And David said to Solomon, My son, as for me, it was in my mind to build an house unto the name of the LORD my God: 8But the word of the LORD came to me, saying, Thou hast shed blood abundantly, and hast made great wars: thou shalt not build an house unto my name, because thou hast shed much blood upon the earth in my sight. 9Behold, a son shall be born to thee, who shall be a man of rest; and I will give him rest from all his enemies round about: for his name shall be Solomon, and I will give peace and quietness unto Israel in his days. 10He shall build an house for my name; and he shall be my son, and I will be his father; and I will establish the throne of his kingdom over Israel for ever. 11Now, my son, the LORD be with thee; and prosper thou, and build the house of the LORD thy God, as he hath said of thee. 12Only the LORD give thee wisdom and understanding, and give thee charge concerning Israel, that thou mayest keep the law of the LORD thy God. 13Then shalt thou prosper, if thou takest heed to fulfil the statutes and judgments which the LORD charged Moses with concerning Israel: be strong, and of good courage; dread not, nor be dismayed. 14Now, behold, in my trouble I have prepared for the house of the LORD an hundred thousand talents of gold, and a thousand thousand talents of silver; and of brass and iron without weight; for it is in abundance: timber also and stone have I prepared; and thou mayest add thereto. 15Moreover there areworkmen with thee in abundance, hewers and workers of stone and timber, and all manner of cunning men for every manner of work. 16Of the gold, the silver, and the brass, and the iron, there is no number. Arisetherefore, and be doing, and the LORD be with thee.

◄ Isaiah 9 ►6
6For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

7Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.
◄ Isaiah 9 ►1

Unto Us a Child is Born

1Nevertheless the dimness shall not be such as was in her vexation, when at the first he lightly afflicted the land of Zebulun and the land of Naphtali, and afterward did more grievously afflict her by the way of the sea, beyond Jordan, in Galilee of the nations.

2The people that walked in darkness have seen a great light: they that dwell in the land of the shadow of death, upon them hath the light shined.

3Thou hast multiplied the nation, and not increased the joy: they joy before thee according to the joy in harvest, and as men rejoice when they divide the spoil.

4For thou hast broken the yoke of his burden, and the staff of his shoulder, the rod of his oppressor, as in the day of Midian.

5For every battle of the warrior is with confused noise, and garments rolled in blood; but this shall be with burning and fuel of fire.

6For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

7Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.


8The Lord sent a word into Jacob, and it hath lighted upon Israel.

9And all the people shall know, even Ephraim and the inhabitant of Samaria, that say in the pride and stoutness of heart,

10The bricks are fallen down, but we will build with hewn stones: the sycomores are cut down, but we will change them into cedars.

11Therefore the LORD shall set up the adversaries of Rezin against him, and join his enemies together;

12The Syrians before, and the Philistines behind; and they shall devour Israel with open mouth. For all this his anger is not turned away, but his hand is stretched out still.

13For the people turneth not unto him that smiteth them, neither do they seek the LORD of hosts.

14Therefore the LORD will cut off from Israel head and tail, branch and rush, in one day.

15The ancient and honourable, he is the head; and the prophet that teacheth lies, he is the tail.

16For the leaders of this people cause them to err; and they that are led of them are destroyed.

17Therefore the Lord shall have no joy in their young men, neither shall have mercy on their fatherless and widows: for every one is an hypocrite and an evildoer, and every mouth speaketh folly. For all this his anger is not turned away, but his hand is stretched out still.


18For wickedness burneth as the fire: it shall devour the briers and thorns, and shall kindle in the thickets of the forest, and they shall mount up like the lifting up of smoke.

19Through the wrath of the LORD of hosts is the land darkened, and the people shall be as the fuel of the fire: no man shall spare his brother.

20And he shall snatch on the right hand, and be hungry; and he shall eat on the left hand, and they shall not be satisfied: they shall eat every man the flesh of his own arm:

21Manasseh, Ephraim; and Ephraim, Manasseh: and they together shall be against Judah. For all this his anger is not turned away, but his hand is stretched out still.

(Matthew 4:12-17; Mark 1:14-15; Luke 4:14-15) This chapters also speak of the Kingdom and Isaiah prophesy

King James Bible

Thanks for posting these passages. What are you trying to say about them by listing them? I don't follow.

Sorry I missed this before.....

BilliardsBall said:

perhaps you would explain your views on salvation, which is more pertinent to this thread that I began?

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Salvation? We first have to know what we are being saved from, and what happens to those who are saved?

The Apostle Peter wrote: "The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance." (2 Pet 3:9; John 3:16)

Strongs Concordance lists the primary meaning of the word "perish" as "destroy". So people are being saved from a destruction similar to what took place in Noah's day. Jesus used this example to illustrate the situation in the world and the response of people to the warning being given along with the message of salvation. (Matt 24:36-39) That means that those who respond positively to the message of salvation will not "perish" or be destroyed in the final judgment. However, not all who are saved will go to heaven.

The separating of the "sheep from the goats" given by Jesus as a parable, also tells the same story.

Matthew 25:31-34, 41 “But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left. “Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Matthew 25:34 “Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world..........“Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels".

This pictures Jesus arriving to judge mankind. There are only "sheep and goats" in the world at that time......there is nothing in between...no other category. This clearly indicates that the sheep will live, but the goats will end up in the same place as the rebel angels and their leader, satan. This "everlasting fire" is the "lake of fire" mentioned in Revelation.

The living will be judged, and also the dead according to Revelation 20:12-15....."And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire."

So destruction or a second kind of death is the final outcome for all who reject God and who fail to obey his directives.
What is different about this "death"? No one comes back from this one. It is eternal destruction.....no resurrection is possible from this place.

Confirmation that this is not a literal place of conscious torment is the fact that "death and hades" are also thrown into this place...they are "destroyed", never to be seen again.

people are not put into the lake of fire to be tortured for eternity but to be burned up - destroyed - people who do not earn a place in God's kingdom will be permanently eliminated

lostwanderingsoul said:

what about the "Lord's Prayer" where it says thy kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as it is in Heaven. Jesus is looking for God's kingdom to come ON EARTH. that is why the Romans wanyed to kill Jesus because they thought He was going to set up a kingdom and overthrow the Roman government. God's kingdom will be on earth when Jesus returns to serve as King

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Yes he is teaching us how to Pray so that God Kingdom be manifested on earth as it is in Haven good question

lostwanderingsoul said:

the word gospel means "good news" and the gospel of Jesus is the good news that He is coming back to earth to set up and rule the Kingdom of God here on earth

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BilliardsBall said:

Thanks for posting these passages. What are you trying to say about them by listing them? I don't follow.

Click to expand...

just to show how the Lord communicated his message true his people from Samuel , David ,Salommon then Isaiah speaks of the Government that was to be establish referring to the Kingdom of God true his son Jesus.

JayJayDee said:

Sorry I missed this before.....



Salvation? We first have to know what we are being saved from, and what happens to those who are saved?

The Apostle Peter wrote: "The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance." (2 Pet 3:9; John 3:16)

Strongs Concordance lists the primary meaning of the word "perish" as "destroy". So people are being saved from a destruction similar to what took place in Noah's day. Jesus used this example to illustrate the situation in the world and the response of people to the warning being given along with the message of salvation. (Matt 24:36-39) That means that those who respond positively to the message of salvation will not "perish" or be destroyed in the final judgment. However, not all who are saved will go to heaven.

The separating of the "sheep from the goats" given by Jesus as a parable, also tells the same story.

Matthew 25:31-34, 41 “But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left. “Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Matthew 25:34 “Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world..........“Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels".

This pictures Jesus arriving to judge mankind. There are only "sheep and goats" in the world at that time......there is nothing in between...no other category. This clearly indicates that the sheep will live, but the goats will end up in the same place as the rebel angels and their leader, satan. This "everlasting fire" is the "lake of fire" mentioned in Revelation.

The living will be judged, and also the dead according to Revelation 20:12-15....."And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire."

So destruction or a second kind of death is the final outcome for all who reject God and who fail to obey his directives.
What is different about this "death"? No one comes back from this one. It is eternal destruction.....no resurrection is possible from this place.

Confirmation that this is not a literal place of conscious torment is the fact that "death and hades" are also thrown into this place...they are "destroyed", never to be seen again.

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Yes, there are verses like John 3:16, "Shall not perish but have life everlasting". However, you are omitting both clear passages and allusions to Hell. You are also omitting statements like the one you mentioned in Revelation 20, where it explains how antichrist and the false prophet will be in the lake of fire 1,000 years before other persons.

Additionally, if the resurrected wicked dead are annihilated, the Bible says this occurs after an "age", the same Greek term being used for the age for which Christians will live. If the wicked live for some time and then are annihilated, there is also a limit on eternal life for the righteous. Unfortunately, Hell is an eternal, not temporary state.

BilliardsBall said:

Yes, there are verses like John 3:16, "Shall not perish but have life everlasting". However, you are omitting both clear passages and allusions to Hell.

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Can I ask what "allusions to hell" you are talking about?

Christendom's definition of "hell" is not the Bible's definition. You have to realise that the ancient Jews did not believe in an immortal soul. This belief in "life after death" infiltrated the religious systems of mankind from the false ideas that originated in ancient Babylon. This false belief was part of the "ways of the nations" that Israel was forbidden to adopt when they entered the land of Canaan. (Deut 18:9-12) Life after death is merely a perpetuation of the lie satan told in the garden of Eden....he told the woman she "would not die", when God told her that she would. Was there mention of "hell" to Adam if he sinned? The only penalty for sin was "death"...nothing more. Adam knew what death was.

"Hell" (Heb. sheol, Gr. hades) in the OT is nothing more than the grave. Everyone goes there. It never meant a place of consciousness in torment, but a place of rest. When you see the words on a gravestone "Rest in Peace"...this is what those words mean.......but when Christendom adopted false platonic ideas about life after death in the spiritual realm, they looked for scripture to support it and read it into certain verses, rather than having scripture teach them. I assure you that belief in an immortal soul is not there. Eternal death is the opposite of eternal life. This is what the Bible teaches. The dead are not conscious. (Eccl 9:5, 6, 10)

You are also omitting statements like the one you mentioned in Revelation 20, where it explains how antichrist and the false prophet will be in the lake of fire 1,000 years before other persons.

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Satan and his hordes will be in the "abyss" for the full thousand years of the kingdom's rule. Being completely inactivated, there will be no opposition to the purpose of the kingdom...that is, bringing alienated sinful humanity back to the perfection of mind and body that Adam once enjoyed. When all mankind have reached that point, satan will be released to test mankind one last time. This time, there will be no harm done before God collects any rebels and hurl them all into "the lake of fire"....the second death. Unlike the first death...no one come back from this place. It means total destruction and because "death and hades" are also thrown into this symbolic lake, death and the grave will never be seen again.

Additionally, if the resurrected wicked dead are annihilated, the Bible says this occurs after an "age", the same Greek term being used for the age for which Christians will live. If the wicked live for some time and then are annihilated, there is also a limit on eternal life for the righteous. Unfortunately, Hell is an eternal, not temporary state.

Click to expand...

In the Revelation, "hades" is emptied. (Rev 20:13) Then both death and its receptacle (hades) are disposed of, never to plague mankind again.

When Jesus said to the Pharisees, "how are you to flee from the judgment of Gehenna?" (Gehenna is erroneously translated "hell" in many Bibles) he was telling them that they were going to a place from which they would never be resurrected. Their judgment takes place at their death.
Do you understand what "Gehenna" means?

There are three categories of people mentioned in the Bible......the wicked....the righteous....and the unrighteous.
The fate of the wicked is not the same as for the unrighteous. There is a difference. The wicked are like the Pharisees, whom Jesus personally passed judgment on...these saw with their own eyes the power of God in the person of Jesus Christ and accused him of being from the devil. They will not be resurrected because they committed the unforgivable sin. They denied the Christ and led others away from him.

Jesus will resurrect the "unrighteous" along with the "righteous" and give them an opportunity to change their ways. He calls them out of their graves, which are on earth. (John 5:28, 29) A judgment period will follow. This is entirely fair because many of the unrighteous dead in all parts of the world, in all ages past, never got the opportunity to get to know Jehovah or to learn about his son. These will be given that opportunity. Rev 21:2-5 describes what "man" (humans) can expect under the rule of God's kingdom. (New Jerusalem)

During the reign of God's kingdom, all the damage done by the devil will be undone. It will take a thousand years to accomplish this and at the end of that period, all mankind will be in the same perfect state that Adam was originally. Satan will be released to try again to tempt mankind to disobey God, but will not succeed in causing any real damage. (Rev 20:7-9) Jehovah will collect them all up and dispatch them forever. The only ones left will be the ones who qualify for everlasting life...the obedient ones who remained loyal to God despite all attempts by the devil to derail them on their path to life. Jesus set the example; as a perfect human he resisted all temptation....so can we.

everyone must face the first or physical death. the wicked must also face the second spiritual death. those who are "saved" will not face the second death but will join Jesus in His Kingdom. the gospel is the "good news" about that coming kingdom.

JayJayDee said:

Can I ask what "allusions to hell" you are talking about?

Christendom's definition of "hell" is not the Bible's definition. You have to realise that the ancient Jews did not believe in an immortal soul. This belief in "life after death" infiltrated the religious systems of mankind from the false ideas that originated in ancient Babylon. This false belief was part of the "ways of the nations" that Israel was forbidden to adopt when they entered the land of Canaan. (Deut 18:9-12) Life after death is merely a perpetuation of the lie satan told in the garden of Eden....he told the woman she "would not die", when God told her that she would. Was there mention of "hell" to Adam if he sinned? The only penalty for sin was "death"...nothing more. Adam knew what death was.

"Hell" (Heb. sheol, Gr. hades) in the OT is nothing more than the grave. Everyone goes there. It never meant a place of consciousness in torment, but a place of rest. When you see the words on a gravestone "Rest in Peace"...this is what those words mean.......but when Christendom adopted false platonic ideas about life after death in the spiritual realm, they looked for scripture to support it and read it into certain verses, rather than having scripture teach them. I assure you that belief in an immortal soul is not there. Eternal death is the opposite of eternal life. This is what the Bible teaches. The dead are not conscious. (Eccl 9:5, 6, 10)



Satan and his hordes will be in the "abyss" for the full thousand years of the kingdom's rule. Being completely inactivated, there will be no opposition to the purpose of the kingdom...that is, bringing alienated sinful humanity back to the perfection of mind and body that Adam once enjoyed. When all mankind have reached that point, satan will be released to test mankind one last time. This time, there will be no harm done before God collects any rebels and hurl them all into "the lake of fire"....the second death. Unlike the first death...no one come back from this place. It means total destruction and because "death and hades" are also thrown into this symbolic lake, death and the grave will never be seen again.



In the Revelation, "hades" is emptied. (Rev 20:13) Then both death and its receptacle (hades) are disposed of, never to plague mankind again.

When Jesus said to the Pharisees, "how are you to flee from the judgment of Gehenna?" (Gehenna is erroneously translated "hell" in many Bibles) he was telling them that they were going to a place from which they would never be resurrected. Their judgment takes place at their death.
Do you understand what "Gehenna" means?

There are three categories of people mentioned in the Bible......the wicked....the righteous....and the unrighteous.
The fate of the wicked is not the same as for the unrighteous. There is a difference. The wicked are like the Pharisees, whom Jesus personally passed judgment on...these saw with their own eyes the power of God in the person of Jesus Christ and accused him of being from the devil. They will not be resurrected because they committed the unforgivable sin. They denied the Christ and led others away from him.

Jesus will resurrect the "unrighteous" along with the "righteous" and give them an opportunity to change their ways. He calls them out of their graves, which are on earth. (John 5:28, 29) A judgment period will follow. This is entirely fair because many of the unrighteous dead in all parts of the world, in all ages past, never got the opportunity to get to know Jehovah or to learn about his son. These will be given that opportunity. Rev 21:2-5 describes what "man" (humans) can expect under the rule of God's kingdom. (New Jerusalem)

During the reign of God's kingdom, all the damage done by the devil will be undone. It will take a thousand years to accomplish this and at the end of that period, all mankind will be in the same perfect state that Adam was originally. Satan will be released to try again to tempt mankind to disobey God, but will not succeed in causing any real damage. (Rev 20:7-9) Jehovah will collect them all up and dispatch them forever. The only ones left will be the ones who qualify for everlasting life...the obedient ones who remained loyal to God despite all attempts by the devil to derail them on their path to life. Jesus set the example; as a perfect human he resisted all temptation....so can we.

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Ancient Jews, nothing. MODERN Jews ALSO do not believe in Hell, and many of them don't believe in Heaven. Tell me something I don't know? (I'm a Jew.)

By "allusion" I was thinking of Jesus mentioning Gey-hinnom aka Gehenna, where garbage piled so high, including unclean bodies denied regular burial, that fires burned continually. That's a pretty clear allusion to me.

I've read the Bible many times and in many different versions, and have never seen a parsing of unrighteous and wicked. Most people you ask will find them complete synonyms. Nor have I ever read scriptures describing a chance for unregenerate sinners after death.

The Good news of the Gospel is the Kingdom of God has arive . Jhon said repent for the Kingdom of God is near Jesus said the same but he also said the kingdom of God can not be seeing by closed observation but in the spirit when you understand it and belive , it will revel it self in your hart then the kingdom has arive in your home. The word lord means owner so by me proclaiming that Jesus is my lord I'm saying , Jesus is my owner so if we understand That part of it we trust that he is in control he is my Lord. Now the other side of that will be the messages he brought to us which is the Good news of the Kingdom of God .so what are the benefits of been citizens of his Kingdom ?that everything you need is in disposition to you if you obey his command . This is why he told us to seek First the Kingdom and righteousness .

BilliardsBall said:

Ancient Jews, nothing. MODERN Jews ALSO do not believe in Hell, and many of them don't believe in Heaven. Tell me something I don't know? (I'm a Jew.)

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You have nothing to suggest your Jewish beliefs BB. Are you a Messianic Jew then? Or are your posts designed to expose Christendom's beliefs as false? I am confused....what is your position?

Being acquainted with Jewish OT beliefs then you would know that heaven and hell were never presented as opposites in the scriptures. When Adam was told the penalty for disobedience...he was not told that he would burn in hell...he was simply told that he would die.....and return to the dust from which he was taken.

What was placed before Israel at Mt Sinai was "life and death". This is still the only option. (Matt 7:13, 14)

Solomon wrote at Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10....."For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing; there is no longer any reward for them, because all memory of them is lost.....Whatever task comes your way to do, do it with all your strength; because in Sh’ol, where you will go, there is neither working nor planning, neither knowledge nor wisdom." (CJB)

Sh'ol (Sheol) is the Hebrew equivalent to "hades" in the Greek. So Sheol and hades mean he same thing. Solomon wrote that there is no conscious existence in Sheol...the place to which we all go. We sleep in death in our graves...simple. There is no part of man that survives death. Belief in an immortal soul was adopted from pagan Greek ideas, not from the scriptures.

Where was Lazarus before Jesus resurrected him? Jesus said he was "sleeping". (John 11:11-14)

By "allusion" I was thinking of Jesus mentioning Gey-hinnom aka Gehenna, where garbage piled so high, including unclean bodies denied regular burial, that fires burned continually. That's a pretty clear allusion to me.

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It isn't what you imagine. Reference to "Gehenna" was something that the Jews of Jesus' day well understood.
The valley of Hinnom, used previously by apostate Jews to sacrifice their children in the fire to Molech was permanently converted to a garbage dump, just outside Jerusalem's walls. The carcasses of dead animals as well as the bodies of executed criminals were thrown into the flames for complete destruction. The fires were kept burning day and night by the addition of brimstone. (sulphur) Whatever the flames missed, the maggots finished off. To a Jew, not having a designated burial tomb with one's name and family lineage inscribed meant not being remembered by God in the coming resurrection under Messiah's kingdom. So Gehenna meant eternal death...not worthy of a decent burial or resurrection. It was never intended as a place of conscious torment for the simple reason that the dead are not conscious of anything.
Do you see how the corruption set in? Beliefs were introduced from paganism and Christianity fell into apostasy just as Jesus and his apostles foretold. Scripture was framed to take on meanings that were never there to begin with.

I've read the Bible many times and in many different versions, and have never seen a parsing of unrighteous and wicked. Most people you ask will find them complete synonyms. Nor have I ever read scriptures describing a chance for unregenerate sinners after death.

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Since the wicked are those deemed by God to be such, it is not for us to determine who is in that category except the ones specifically named in the Bible. The Pharisees were not going to "flee the judgment of Gehenna" and Judas Iscariot is called "the son of destruction" because he committed the unforgivable sin of receiving Holy Spirit and yet betraying the son of God for 30 pieces of silver...the price of a slave. He committed suicide and will never be seen again.

Satan the devil and his hordes will also end up in the "lake of fire" (another name for "Gehenna"). And the people whom Jesus judges as "goats" when the judgment comes in the near future, will also share that fate. Living in an age where there is no excuse for ignorance, these ones have made a deliberate choice to reject God and his kingdom.

The "unrighteous" however, are the ones Jesus will call from their graves....to start again with a clean slate. These will be the ones who had no choice because of living in a land or at a time when the knowledge now widely available to all at this time, was not available to them. They have paid sin's wages, and Jesus sacrifice guarantees them an opportunity for life. Isn't that fair?

The Bible does make a differentiation between the wicked and the unrighteous....you have simply overlooked it or failed to discern it because of adhering to false beliefs.

God is not a fiendish torturer...he is a loving God who exercises justice for all. But true justice is rendered without sentiment. If you break the laws of the land, try shedding tears to see if you can wriggle out of a penalty. The punishment must fit the crime, and if you know the penalty before you act...who is to blame when the punishment is meted out?

JayJayDee said:

You have nothing to suggest your Jewish beliefs BB. Are you a Messianic Jew then? Or are your posts designed to expose Christendom's beliefs as false? I am confused....what is your position?

Being acquainted with Jewish OT beliefs then you would know that heaven and hell were never presented as opposites in the scriptures. When Adam was told the penalty for disobedience...he was not told that he would burn in hell...he was simply told that he would die.....and return to the dust from which he was taken.

What was placed before Israel at Mt Sinai was "life and death". This is still the only option. (Matt 7:13, 14)

Solomon wrote at Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10....."For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing; there is no longer any reward for them, because all memory of them is lost.....Whatever task comes your way to do, do it with all your strength; because in Sh’ol, where you will go, there is neither working nor planning, neither knowledge nor wisdom." (CJB)

Sh'ol (Sheol) is the Hebrew equivalent to "hades" in the Greek. So Sheol and hades mean he same thing. Solomon wrote that there is no conscious existence in Sheol...the place to which we all go. We sleep in death in our graves...simple. There is no part of man that survives death. Belief in an immortal soul was adopted from pagan Greek ideas, not from the scriptures.

Where was Lazarus before Jesus resurrected him? Jesus said he was "sleeping". (John 11:11-14)



It isn't what you imagine. Reference to "Gehenna" was something that the Jews of Jesus' day well understood.
The valley of Hinnom, used previously by apostate Jews to sacrifice their children in the fire to Molech was permanently converted to a garbage dump, just outside Jerusalem's walls. The carcasses of dead animals as well as the bodies of executed criminals were thrown into the flames for complete destruction. The fires were kept burning day and night by the addition of brimstone. (sulphur) Whatever the flames missed, the maggots finished off. To a Jew, not having a designated burial tomb with one's name and family lineage inscribed meant not being remembered by God in the coming resurrection under Messiah's kingdom. So Gehenna meant eternal death...not worthy of a decent burial or resurrection. It was never intended as a place of conscious torment for the simple reason that the dead are not conscious of anything.
Do you see how the corruption set in? Beliefs were introduced from paganism and Christianity fell into apostasy just as Jesus and his apostles foretold. Scripture was framed to take on meanings that were never there to begin with.



Since the wicked are those deemed by God to be such, it is not for us to determine who is in that category except the ones specifically named in the Bible. The Pharisees were not going to "flee the judgment of Gehenna" and Judas Iscariot is called "the son of destruction" because he committed the unforgivable sin of receiving Holy Spirit and yet betraying the son of God for 30 pieces of silver...the price of a slave. He committed suicide and will never be seen again.

Satan the devil and his hordes will also end up in the "lake of fire" (another name for "Gehenna"). And the people whom Jesus judges as "goats" when the judgment comes in the near future, will also share that fate. Living in an age where there is no excuse for ignorance, these ones have made a deliberate choice to reject God and his kingdom.

The "unrighteous" however, are the ones Jesus will call from their graves....to start again with a clean slate. These will be the ones who had no choice because of living in a land or at a time when the knowledge now widely available to all at this time, was not available to them. They have paid sin's wages, and Jesus sacrifice guarantees them an opportunity for life. Isn't that fair?

The Bible does make a differentiation between the wicked and the unrighteous....you have simply overlooked it or failed to discern it because of adhering to false beliefs.

God is not a fiendish torturer...he is a loving God who exercises justice for all. But true justice is rendered without sentiment. If you break the laws of the land, try shedding tears to see if you can wriggle out of a penalty. The punishment must fit the crime, and if you know the penalty before you act...who is to blame when the punishment is meted out?

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I'm a Messianic Jew.

I never said God is a fiendish torturer. In Luke 16, the one in torment carries on a rational conversation with Abraham. He isn't screaming and there are no devils with pitchforks. I understand the JW stance on Hell as a reaction to the emotions prompted by Hell, but it is not a correct hermeneutical interpretation regarding the facts of Hell as presented in the scriptures. There are numerous scriptures like the ones you presented as written by authors in the Bible. Inerrant? Yes. Presenting from their point of view on Earth that the dead don't speak to us any longer that we can see? Yes. Another biblical reason to neither pray to saints nor attempt communication with the dead.

However, there are also clear scriptures regarding Hell. The two thrown into the Lake of Fire are thrown in alive before the millennium. The ones swallowed up in Korah's rebellion astonished the people present who say them go under and into the Earth while alive.

I think one of the logical problems with the doctrine of annihilation is that it limits God's justice. People like Stalin and Mao Tse Tung had tens of millions killed. So the retribution is that they resurrect to see they miss paradise on Earth before they die again? How do you account for Jesus's statements about being beaten with many or fewer stripes?

It makes sense to me that Hell is worse for some, easier for others.

You might also want to consider:

* Plugging in "annihilation" inside the four Revelation verses that mention the Second Death. The "Second Annihilation" makes no sense.

* We both know wicked people who will do evil and think, "I can enjoy myself and take pleasure, even when hurting others. Then I eventually disappear and don't have to face judgment"

* I Corinthians 15 says the last enemy to be abolished is death. Annihilating many people is killing them, isn't it? How is causing mass death abolishing death?

* The Greek word used for eternal life for the wicked and the righteous is the same - if the wicked will only live for an "age" then the righteous will also live for an "age" and then perish, which breaks verses like John 3:16

Thank you.

Thanks, all, for your many thoughtful comments. I apologize for being away on a missions trip overseas and then I came home to have to travel to a funeral.

I'm surprised, however, that no one has further comments on this matter? Everyone agrees with my definitions regarding salvation?

JayJayDee asked : (post # 45) “Salvation? We first have to know what we are being saved from, and what happens to those who are saved? “

Billiardsball said (post #56) : “ Thanks, all, for your many thoughtful comments. I apologize for being away on a missions trip overseas and then I came home to have to travel to a funeral. I'm surprised, however, that no one has further comments on this matter? Everyone agrees with my definitions regarding salvation? “



Hi Billiardsball :

I noticed your post #48 where you seemed to explain to JayJayDee that, in your theory, one is saved from a Hell. (Then you two discussed your theories on what hell is). Is avoidance from “going to hell” the entire definition of being “saved” in your Christian theory or does being “saved” mean anything else inside your religious Theory? For example, the second phrase in JayJayDees question related to "what happens to those who are saved?". Can you explain more fully your theory of what happens to those who become “saved” in your Christian theory?

Thanks.


Clear
ακτζτζω

BilliardsBall said:

Are you going to Heaven?

Why?

Are you perfect?

No one’s perfect. We’ve got a problem, don’t we? For which there is only one solution.

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Jesus Christ has done six vital things for us, took our sin, our guilt, our shame, received our punishment.

He died on the cross to pay for our sin and He rose from the dead forever.

There’s only one way that He tells us to go to Heaven, to place our trust in Christ, to trust in what He did: "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish in Hell but have eternal life in Heaven."

Just like we trust a bus driver to take us without our effort to a destination, we trust in Christ, and know assuredly we are going to Heaven.

Would you like to place your trust in Christ right now? (If you were to talk to God, what would you say to Him?)

**********

Here's how I have been taught to understand the gospel/good news of salvation from Jesus. Does this match your understanding? Why or why not?

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This bus driver example is misleading. Some might think you don't have do anything to gain salvation. But in truth you do have to do something - you have to stay on the bus. And every time the bus stops to pick up other people you'll be tempted to get off to visit the attractions in the area.

So what are the attractions that can tempt a christian to get off the bus to eternal life? Sin of course! Therefore a christian who wishes to stay on the bus needs to resist the devil's temptations.

jeager106 said:

What makes the OP feel the righteous are going someplace else?
Why does the OP and most Christians believe the righteous go to heaven?
Are the Gospels being understood correctly or is going to heaven a myth?
The bible says: “Happy are the mild-tempered ones, since they will inherit the earth.”—Matthew 5:5.
Do we not pray that God’s will take place “as in heaven, also upon earth”? (Matthew 6:9, 10) In reality, one of two destinies awaits the righteous. A minority will rule in heaven with Christ, but the majority will live forever on earth.—Revelation 5:10.

We use what is commonly called "the Lords prayer" and ask that God's will be done on earth as it is in heaven.
In so praying why do Christains believe we go someplace else when we supplicate that God's will be done on
earth as it is in heaven.
Why would God create an earth with all the wonderful possibilities just to righteous could go someplace
else of all eternity?
Is this heavenly eternal life a corruption of scripture created when Constintine organized a catholic bible?
Note: catholic here means universal, not the Catholic church.

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Why do you feel it is relevant where the righteous will go? Is heaven a more beautiful place than the earth will be?

Clear said:

JayJayDee asked : (post # 45) “Salvation? We first have to know what we are being saved from, and what happens to those who are saved? “

Billiardsball said (post #56) : “ Thanks, all, for your many thoughtful comments. I apologize for being away on a missions trip overseas and then I came home to have to travel to a funeral. I'm surprised, however, that no one has further comments on this matter? Everyone agrees with my definitions regarding salvation? “



Hi Billiardsball :

I noticed your post #48 where you seemed to explain to JayJayDee that, in your theory, one is saved from a Hell. (Then you two discussed your theories on what hell is). Is avoidance from “going to hell” the entire definition of being “saved” in your Christian theory or does being “saved” mean anything else inside your religious Theory? For example, the second phrase in JayJayDees question related to "what happens to those who are saved?". Can you explain more fully your theory of what happens to those who become “saved” in your Christian theory?

Thanks.


Clear
ακτζτζω

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One is saved from Hell, an eternal punishment for unrepentant people. One is saved from darkness and ignorance to walk in the light of Christ and to begin to experience some of the fruits of God's Kingdom and eternal life now, in this world.

Thanks for asking.