As a Christian do you believe in an honest-to-god punishing Hell?

This seems like splitting hairs to me.

InChrist said:

I don't believe this idea that God tortures living beings for eternity is scripturally accurate. For one thing, the Bible does not use the word torture in reference to those who do not spend eternity in God's presence. The word is torment and I believe this is actually a self-induced torment brought about by an acute awareness by the individual of the state they chose in rejecting and being apart from God who is the only source of all good, beauty, light, peace, and joy. To be in a such a state separated from God will be tormenting, but it not torture by God.

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Sorry, this seems like splitting hairs. God tosses you into a fire abyss.. he is not standing over you torturing you but it is a place that he has prepared for the wicked..

How do Christians account for the fact that the concept of eternal reward or punishment does not even originate with Judaism, but instead is grafted in from other traditions such as Egyptian, Persian and Greek mythology? There is no fiery torment in the Old Testament; if it was a real thing to be concerned about, why no mention of it until the Gospels?

DoubtingNate said:

How do Christians account for the fact that the concept of eternal reward or punishment does not even originate with Judaism, but instead is grafted in from other traditions such as Egyptian, Persian and Greek mythology? There is no fiery torment in the Old Testament; if it was a real thing to be concerned about, why no mention of it until the Gospels?

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Progressive revelation.

DoubtingNate said:

This seems like splitting hairs to me.


Sorry, this seems like splitting hairs. God tosses you into a fire abyss.. he is not standing over you torturing you but it is a place that he has prepared for the wicked..

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Except, remember that some people do not want to spend eternity with God, they do not want to be free from sin, so the state of their separation from the goodness of God's Presence will be a lonely place of self-torment. I don't think it is spitting hairs, just eternal, spiritual reality.

1. Those who are "cast into the lake of fire" have just been judged at the "great white throne...according to their works" (Revelation:20:11-12 ). They must be terrified by the judgment they know they deserve for the sins with which they have been confronted by the One on the throne "from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away...." Every self-justifying excuse has been stripped away, leaving the stark reality of the extreme wickedness of their sin. They will be forever tormented by a conscience that can no longer hide from God or justify itself, and by an eternally burning thirst for the Living Water Christ offered, and which they despised.
   
   
   They will for eternity mourn the folly of their irrevocable decision. Imagine the pain of such a fire burning in the soul of one in the lake of fire who has in God's presence suddenly met with the full realization of one's eternal state, with the "blood" of Jesus on one's "hands." Would not the burning pain and anguish these souls and spirits will suffer be far worse than physical flames could inflict upon physical bodies?
   
   
2. Finally, physical torment could not affect the conscience or effect any understanding of the horror of sin and the justice of the punishment God is meting out upon sinners. Excruciating physical torment would surely distract the conscience instead of assist in the conviction just burned into it at the great white throne.
   

I understand the strength of the tradition that the flames of hell must be physical fire torturing bodies. In my opinion, that idea trivializes God's just punishment, has led to much misunderstanding, and instead of glorifying God for His uncompromising justice, breeds bewilderment, resentment, and even hatred of the God whom they now view as their tormentor instead of their just judge.

Dave Hunt Addresses the 'Fire of Hell' Controversy | thebereancall.org

but doesn't it seem strange that the other cultures got the memo before it ever made it to Judaism?

DoubtingNate said:

but doesn't it seem strange that the other cultures got the memo before it ever made it to Judaism?

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Well, I don't necessarily think Judaism did not have concept of hell...http://www.jewishboston.com/Ask-A-Rabbi/blogs/5065-i-ve-always-read-that-jews-don-t-believe-in-the-concept-of-hell-is-that-true
And as far as spiritual realities go I believe all cultures have some understanding, though altered along the way as people strayed further from God, since all humanity had the same beginning according to the biblical perspective. So it doesn't seem strange to me that other cultures may have varying concepts regarding eternal punishment. How accurate those concepts are is another thing.

I heared a near death experience of a guy, who said, he was in hell for eternity. Then he was saved by a light, went to heaven and woke up again in the real world. He was an atheist, and then became a spritual guy without religion. But near death experience hell is not much about religion, there also are atheist, who go to heaven directly afaik. Belief is in your heart, so your mind doesn't say anything, abour beliefs, or spiritual qualities. So, maybe eternal punishment is like that. I know it is not logical, but he said, he was eternally in hell, so probably the next life is just not logical.

If we are concious in hell, and everyone who accepts Jesus as savior is saved, then we can make a decision to believe in God in hell and be saved.

The Bahai point of view is, that you will lose your body when you die. Therefore your eternal soul will be your new body. This body will be driven by qualities like faith in God, love, charity etc. If you fail, to develop these qualities in this life, then you will be handicapped in the next life. Compared to other people, you will be like dead. You will be like a stone compared to humans. In the next life, you won't be able, to better your status by yourself anymore. The only way, to better your status will be prayers, love, grace of God etc. People who will refuse even that, will stay handicapped/dead for very long, but eventually everyone will get it, repent and come to God.

9-10ths_Penguin said:

IMO, it's dishonest to minimize damnation by calling it mere "exclusion".

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It is precisely what it is. You see I don't believe what some other Christians do. I don't believe God has created anything from scratch. Neither the universe nor us. I believe he goes into the chaos of space where matter and intelligence resides. I believe among these intelligences are those that God sees as having the potential to become like him. He offers these intelligences an opportunity to progress. Those who accept are adopted as his children. They are given bodies in his image. At first these bodies are only spirit bodies. They (we) are instructed in matters of godliness. We advance in knowledge. Then the time comes where God decided we have advanced enough in most other knowledge. Now comes the time where we need to develop our spiritual / moral knowledge. With great power comes great responsibility so now comes the time to develop and prove our ability to judge right from wrong.

So he creates an earth where we will receive bodies of flesh and bone. Because this life is strictly for testing and developing moral character most of our other knowledge is not necessary so a veil of forgetfulness comes over us when we come to Earth. All that is left to us is what moral character we were already able to develop prior to coming to earth. Thus one is able to see differences in young children in principles such as patience, fear and so forth.

We face many challenges in life which can help us develop and enhance our moral character (but depending on our choices these experiences can also degrade us). But on our own we can only develop our moral character up to a certain limit. To continue to develop further we need God's assistance. Now herein is the blessing and condemnation of believing and not believing. Those who believe are those who firstly, have a desire to improve in the moral character above what they currently are (anyone making deeply honest introspection will admit that they have improvements to make). Secondly they are those who have come to realize that they are unable to reach that goal on their own. These will soon realize that nothing and noone on Earth can help them improve above a certain point. It is at this time that a man will begin to search for God. And it is also at this time that the man will realize that God has been reaching out to him all his life. If that man calls upon God in honesty and sincerity He will come to know that God is a real person who lives and loves him. He will understand his true relationship to God. And if He obeys God he will increase in moral character according to his desires until he approaches God in his virtue, goodness and righteousness.

On the other hand the man who takes no time for introspection, who is dishonest with himself about his shortcomings, who refuses to listen to that voice within that calls out to him, who has no desire to improve in his moral character will make no such progress. He will not be forced by anyone to improve himself and prepare himself for the happiness and blessings God wishes to bestow upon the faithful. Therefore at the last day when others are going to enjoy the fruits of their labour he will be stuck in a world without God - without his light, law and love. Indeed since he has ever desired to be a law unto himself and has had no wish for God to rule over him he will not be forced to enter into the Kingdom of God. He must go to another Kingdom that is not a Kingdom of God. Where there are people who are just as morally immature as he is.

And what could be more just? Would it make you feel better if God forced people who did not want to live by his laws to live with him? Or do you want God to bend and to change his laws so that he can accommodate all those who would not stretch themselves morally?

God owes us nothing and we owe him for everything we have. God's greatest punishment is to leave us alone.

If hell is merely being excluded from Gods presence, couldn't they live in a nice place? Why would it need to be a place of torment at all?

Thanda said:

God owes us nothing and we owe him for everything we have.

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This implies:

- human beings have no innate value.
- creating humanity confers no responsibility for humanity's well-being.

Do you agree?

DoubtingNate said:

If hell is merely being excluded from Gods presence, couldn't they live in a nice place? Why would it need to be a place of torment at all?

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Because nice places don't make themselves. It takes nice people to make a nice place. Here's a quote from the Silmarillion by JRR Tolkein:

9-10ths_Penguin said:

This implies:

- human beings have no innate value.
- creating humanity confers no responsibility for humanity's well-being.

Do you agree?

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Yes and No. Yes humans have no innate value. As much as today we speak of human rights and such things the truth is no one actually has any right to anything other that what he can obtain through his wisdom and ability. Anything else he receives is a gift, a donation if you will. In the real world (I mean the world beyond this Earth) the only person who gives people things that they haven't worked for through their own ingenuity is God. Without God there is no mercy. Without God there isn't even much Justice since the only justice a person could get would be whatever justice he can enforce through his own strength.
Humans have no innate value but our potential and God's love for us is what gives us some kind of value.

No God does have some responsibility for creating humanity. But He doesn't have as much responsibility as He would have if he created us from scratch (that is, from nothing). Incidentally most Christian believe that is what happened and it renders the whole thing illogical. If God created all of us (every bit of what we are) then he is entirely responsible for every choice we ever make whether good or bad. And for him to punish us for being and becoming what he created us to be and become is pure insanity.
But as I explained above this is not how I understand the creation. I believe there is a part of us (you may call it the soul) that was never created but has always existed. Therefore God has taken upon himself only the responsibility to help us progress as far as we are willing to. Those who refuse his help will not receive his help. Those who refuse his gifts will not receive his gifts. Those who refuse his life and happiness will not receive his life and happiness. It is as fair and simple as that.

InChrist said:

I suggest, rather than remain in a confused, biblically illiterate state by copying and beliving stuff off websites which sole purpose is to be antagonistic toward the God, that you read and pray for insight into what scriptures actually say if you want to know.

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In as much as the only other thing in my post were the quoted verses from the Bible, I can only assume you believe that because they appear on various websites they are somehow invalidated. Thing is, we both know how powerfully these verses exemplify torture. That you need to see the word in print before you will recognize the anguish that defines the word is quite odd. Do you do this with other events in the world? Do you refuse to recognize that the Taliban does bad things unless you see it called "bad" by someone else? Sorry, but your attempt to obfuscate the simple issue is a miserable failure. OR have I got it all wrong? You actually don't know what torture is?

May I bring to bear further reason on this subject?

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Can I stop you?

1. God says, "Come now, and let us reason together (Isaiah:1:18); and Peter says, "Be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you... (1 Peter:3:15)." Paul continually reasoned from the Scriptures: Acts:17:2; 18:4, 19, etc. Rebuking me for reasoning from Scripture, one of the above critics declares, "It's not up to us to try to figure out how these things work. We can be assured that God knows how to make it work." In other words, "Never mind that physical fire could only inflict physical pain that cannot touch soul and spirit; we're not supposed to reason about Scripture. It says 'fire' so it's got to be physical or it wouldn't be real; so God must make that work no matter how unreasonable it is."
   
   Let us continue to reason.
2. Was the water real that Jesus offered to the woman at the well (John:4:14)? Of course, or His offer would have been a fraud. Was the water physical? No. Then, say some, it couldn't have been real. Have they not made a grave mistake?
3. Paul says, "Fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is" (1 Corinthians:3:13). Please tell me how physical fire could reveal "what sort" of works we have done? Isn't that a moral judgment, weighing motives as well as deeds? Does not this fire, which cannot be physical yet is real, give us further insight into the nature of the fires of hell?
4. No physical body could survive the lake of fire for a moment. It would instantly be consumed -- so God would have to continually, moment by moment, reconstitute the physical bodies so He could continue to torment the damned. As I pointed out in the article, this is what Muslims believe about their hell and Catholics about purgatory. Neither belief is biblical. What conviction of conscience would be effected through tormenting physical bodies in physical flames?
   
   "But what about the burning bush that was not consumed? If God can keep physical fire from consuming a bush, surely He could keep it from consuming a physical body in the lake of fire." Of course He could, but what would be the point? Why would God choose to use physical fire to torment the damned even though it didn't consume them? Shouldn't they instead be tormented by the flaming fire of an overwhelming sense of the exceeding sinfulness of the sins they have committed (Romans:7:13) and the horror of what it means to rebel against the only true God, Creator of heaven and earth? Wouldn't this burning of the conscience be far worse than burning in physical flames?
   
   Those who are "cast into the lake of fire" have just been judged at the "great white throne...according to their works" (Revelation:20:11-12
   ). They must be terrified by the judgment they know they deserve for the sins with which they have been confronted by the One on the throne "from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away...." Every self-justifying excuse has been stripped away, leaving the stark reality of the extreme wickedness of their sin. They will be forever tormented by a conscience that can no longer hide from God or justify itself, and by an eternally burning thirst for the Living Water Christ offered, and which they despised.
   
   They will for eternity mourn the folly of their irrevocable decision. Imagine the pain of such a fire burning in the soul of one in the lake of fire who has in God's presence suddenly met with the full realization of one's eternal state, with the "blood" of Jesus on one's "hands." Would not the burning pain and anguish these souls and spirits will suffer be far worse than physical flames could inflict upon physical bodies?
5. Finally, physical torment could not affect the conscience or effect any understanding of the horror of sin and the justice of the punishment God is meting out upon sinners. Excruciating physical torment would surely distract the conscience instead of assist in the conviction just burned into it at the great white throne.

I understand the strength of the tradition that the flames of hell must be physical fire torturing bodies. In my opinion, that idea trivializes God's just punishment, has led to much misunderstanding, and instead of glorifying God for His uncompromising justice, breeds bewilderment, resentment, and even hatred of the God whom they now view as their tormentor instead of their just judge."

Dave Hunt Addresses the 'Fire of Hell' Controversy | thebereancall.org

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In other words, forget the embarrassing descriptions of Hell recorded in Matthew, Mark, II Thessalonians, Revelation, and other chapters of the Bible, and pay attention to this sorry excuse for apologetics. I know your agenda is to recast the words of the Bible into more acceptable forms, but it ain't working, InChrist. Not by a long shot. The Bible may not use the word "torture," but only a child, the ignorant, or those with a necessitous agenda would fail to recognize it when described. Your cherry picking doesn't impress.

DoubtingNate said:

this sums it up pretty well for me..

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This is funny. I'll give you that. I can also see why some people see Christianity that way. But it does show a lack of insight into why we need a Savior.

Sultan Of Swing said:

God is good, and He punishes wrongdoers. He is committed absolutely to justice. It would also be important to note that those sentenced to Hell cannot really be called God's 'children', having been born in rebellion and choosing to remain in such a state, God adopts undeserving men and women into His family, it isn't a default state at birth. You claim goodness becomes meaningless by the way in which He has chosen to do so, but I don't see why. We have no objective standard ourselves, we are not in a position to judge God. He who is infinitely holy, and worthy, and desirable, He gives those who reject Him the only fitting punishment.

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I seriously hope so. I could not stand eternity spent worshipping a slavery promoting baby killer.

Ciao

- viole

Scott C. said:

This is funny. I'll give you that. I can also see why some people see Christianity that way. But it does show a lack of insight into why we need a Savior.

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But isn't that the essence of Christianity: salvation from Hell?

Skwim said:

But isn't that the essence of Christianity: salvation from Hell?

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From what I have gathered about the subject of hell, in the holy scriptures, is that it is a misconception based on misinterpretations, due to mistranslations. Hell is thought of to be some place where those who did not follow God's commands will be tortured for all eternity.If we read the HS we can see this is far from the truth.when it says hell in some bibles,this is really pertaining to Sheol,which is Hebrew for grave.In Greek it is Hades.To many,the word hell is associated with fire.For instance ,Matthew 5:22 says,"
"But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, 'Raca,' is answerable to the court. And anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell."

This fire Jesus is speaking of is the eternal lake of fire.It is a symbolic place that means total destruction.Eternal separation from God.God uses fire to represent total destruction.Fire destroys.

People over the years have mistranslated the holy scriptures, and people are under the impression that hell is a place of fire literally.

So, many that have mistranslated the bible,use the word hell where it does not belong, and also, where it speaks of fire.This confuses many.It is when one goes to the original languages of Hebrew,Aramaic and Greek that one can see the true words and meanings.

God will take ones life if they do not follow His commands,according to the HS,but He will not torture or make people suffer in fire.God even shows what He really thinks about such actions.

Jeremiah 7:31They have built the high places of Topheth in the Valley of Ben Hinnom to burn their sons and daughters in the fire--something I did not command, nor did it enter my mind.

Jeremiah 19:5 They have built the high places of Baal to burn their children in the fire as offerings to Baal--something I did not command or mention, nor did it enter my mind.

So we can see that this is not something God condones.Burning people alive.

Another thing to consider is that Everlasting life is a gift.God would not bring you back to life just to have you tortured in fire for all eternity.Eternal life is a gift.

Bible Student said:

From what I have gathered about the subject of hell, in the holy scriptures, is that it is a misconception based on misinterpretations, due to mistranslations. Hell is thought of to be some place where those who did not follow God's commands will be tortured for all eternity.If we read the HS we can see this is far from the truth.when it says hell in some bibles,this is really pertaining to Sheol,which is Hebrew for grave.In Greek it is Hades.To many,the word hell is associated with fire.When God speaks of ultimate destruction,He uses fire as a way to show this.People over the years have mistranslated the holy scriptures, and people are under the impression that hell is a place of fire.

God will take ones life if they do not follow His commands,according to the HS,but He will not torture or make people suffer in fire.God even shows what He really thinks about such actions.

Jeremiah 7:31They have built the high places of Topheth in the Valley of Ben Hinnom to burn their sons and daughters in the fire--something I did not command, nor did it enter my mind.

Jeremiah 19:5 They have built the high places of Baal to burn their children in the fire as offerings to Baal--something I did not command or mention, nor did it enter my mind.

So we can see that this is not something God condones.Burning people alive.

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In as much as I've already listed Biblical passages describing hell, and how hell is regarded by Catholics and many protestants, I'm not going to revisit them, but simply note that however one chooses to regard Hell, it's a place to be saved from. This is where the "salvation" part comes into play. And from my knowledge of Christianity, as both a participant and observer, salvation from Hell is the essence of the religion.

Skwim said:

In as much as I've already listed Biblical passages describing hell, and how hell is regarded by Catholics and many protestants, I'm not going to revisit them, but simply note that however one chooses to regard Hell, it's a place to be saved from. This is where the "salvation" part comes into play. And from my knowledge of Christianity, as both a participant and observer, salvation from Hell is the essence of the religion.

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Yes,saved from.People seem to confuse the two meanings together though.When it says Hades,this refers to the hell where the dead sleep.When it speaks of hell like in Revelation 20,this is hellfire.People confuse the two and think they are the same.

It mentions Jesus being in hell.People literally think Jesus was in a place of fire.This is incorrect according to the holy scriptures.

King James Bible Acts 2:31
He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

Here is what it really says Acts 2:31 he looked ahead and spoke about the resurrection of the Messiah: 'He was not abandoned to Hades, and his flesh did not experience decay.'

It means the land of the dead.Not a place of fire.

Acts 2:31New International Version
Seeing what was to come, he spoke of the resurrection of the Messiah, that he was not abandoned to the realm of the dead, nor did his body see decay.

This is just saying that Jesus did not rot away in the grave.He was resurrected to eternal life.


Also,we know that the eternal lake of fire is not a literal place because physical fire cannot harm spirits.Satan is reserved for the eternal lake of fire.Spirits cannot be killed by physical elements.It is a symbolic place that means total destruction.

People need to look at hell and hellfire.The two are different.One is a place of the dead.The other a symbolic place that represents total destruction.Once one realizes the difference, they can then start to see clearly what the passages truly are saying.