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Watchtower Governing Body: Are They The Exclusive Channel For God??

Kolibri

Well-Known Member
Watchtower 1998 2/15 p.13 'Jehovah Brings Many Sons to Glory' - Published by the WTB&TS
(Begin Quote)
“Born From God”
6 Those begotten by Jehovah are “born from God.” Addressing such individuals, the apostle John wrote: “Everyone who has been born from God does not carry on sin, because His [Jehovah’s] reproductive seed remains in such one, and he cannot practice sin, because he has been born from God.” (1 John 3:9) This “reproductive seed” is God’s holy spirit. Working in conjunction with his word, it has given each of the 144,000 “a new birth” to a heavenly hope.—1 Peter 1:3-5, 23.
7 Jesus was God’s Son from his human birth, even as the perfect man Adam was the “son of God.” (Luke 1:35; 3:38) After Jesus’ baptism, however, it was significant that Jehovah declared: “You are my Son, the beloved; I have approved you.” (Mark 1:11) By this declaration accompanying the flow of holy spirit, it was clear that God then brought Jesus forth as His spiritual Son. As it were, Jesus was then given “a new birth” with the right to receive life once more as a spirit Son of God in heaven. Like him, his 144,000 spiritual brothers are “born again.” (John 3:1-8; see The Watchtower, November 15, 1992, pages 3-6.) Also like Jesus, they are anointed by God and commissioned to proclaim good news.—Isaiah 61:1, 2; Luke 4:16-21; 1 John 2:20.
(End Quote)

What is that reproductive seed? That is where they err. From Genesis 3:15 to the end of Revelation whenever the word seed is used spiritually, it means the seed of truth which is God's word, the same thing sown to the hearts at Matthew 13 and spread by the apostles in their work of building the church in 1 Corinthians 3

When John says, "his seed (that word of truth) remains in him" he means the same thing as James 1:25 "But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty<(God's word as sown to the heart in love, which fulfills the law of God), and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer [of that law of liberty]<(God's word as sown to the heart in love, which fulfills the law of God), but a doer of the work [of that law of liberty]<(God's word as sown to the heart in love, which fulfills the law of God), this man shall be blessed in his deed."

So you can see where they became confused in this, "This “reproductive seed” is God’s holy spirit. Working in conjunction with his word ...."

How so? They have God's spirit doing if all for the elect as opposed to understanding that all God's spirit does is, (1) help them understand the seed which is the word of truth, and (2) bless them for loving that word of truth.


The following article brings out that the Greek word used in connection with the Incorruptible seed is spo-ra', not sper'ma. As such it is seed that has already been sown. Not seed that is ready to be sown. (But then the argument was not regarding whether the seed was in the state of being reproductive.) What I find convincing though is the comparison of this seed does at 1 John 3:9 with the cleansing effects of the holy spirit found in Galatians 5.22,23 and 1 Thessalonians 4:7,8. The full article here can be found online at Seed — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

*** it-2 p. 886 Seed ***
The Hebrew zeʹraʽ and the Greek sperʹma, both translated “seed,” appear many times in the Scriptures, with the following uses or applications: (a) agricultural and botanical, (b) physiological, and (c) figurative for “offspring.”

Agricultural, Botanical. Israel’s economy was primarily agricultural, hence much is said about sowing, planting, and harvesting, and “seed” is mentioned frequently, the first instance being in the record of earth’s third creative day. Jehovah commanded: “Let the earth cause grass to shoot forth, vegetation bearing seed, fruit trees yielding fruit according to their kinds, the seed of which is in it, upon the earth.” (Ge 1:11, 12, 29) Here the Creator revealed his purpose to clothe the earth with vegetation by reproduction through seed, keeping the various created kinds separate, so that each brings forth “according to its kind” through its own distinctive seed.

Physiological. The Hebrew term zeʹraʽ is used in a physiological sense at Leviticus 15:16-18; 18:20, with reference to an emission of semen. At Leviticus 12:2 the causative form of the verb za·raʽʹ (sow) is rendered in many translations by the English expressions “conceive” or “conceive seed.” At Numbers 5:28 a passive form of za·raʽʹ appears with zeʹraʽ and is rendered “made pregnant with semen” (NW), “sown with seed” (Yg), “conceive seed” (KJ).

Figurative Use. In the majority of instances in which the word zeʹraʽ appears in the Bible, it is used with reference to offspring, or posterity. Animal offspring are designated by this term at Genesis 7:3. Human offspring of Noah are referred to at Genesis 9:9; those of the woman Hagar at Genesis 16:10. God commanded Abram and his natural “seed” to be circumcised as a sign of the covenant God was making with them.—Ge 17:7-11.

The Greek word sperʹma is used in the same applications as the Hebrew zeʹraʽ. (Compare Mt 13:24; 1Co 15:38; Heb 11:11; Joh 7:42.) Jesus Christ used the related word spoʹros (thing sown) to symbolize the word of God.—Lu 8:11.

*** it-2 p. 890 Seed ***
Incorruptible reproductive seed. The apostle Peter speaks to his spiritual brothers concerning their being given “a new birth to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an incorruptible and undefiled and unfading inheritance.” He says, “It is reserved in the heavens for you.” He calls to their attention that it was not with corruptible things such as silver and gold that they were delivered, but with the blood of Christ. After this he says: “For you have been given a new birth, not by corruptible, but by incorruptible reproductive seed, through the word of the living and enduring God.” Here the word “seed” is the Greek word spo·raʹ, which denotes seed sown, hence in position to be reproductive.—1Pe 1:3, 4, 18, 19, 23.

In this manner Peter reminds his brothers of their relationship as sons, not to a human father who dies and who can transmit neither incorruptibility nor everlasting life to them, but to “the living and enduring God.” The incorruptible seed with which they are given this new birth is God’s holy spirit, his active force, working in conjunction with God’s enduring Word, which is itself spirit inspired. The apostle John likewise says of such spirit-begotten ones: “Everyone who has been born from God does not carry on sin, because His reproductive seed remains in such one, and he cannot practice sin, because he has been born from God.”—1Jo 3:9.

This spirit in them operates to generate a new birth as God’s sons. It is a force for cleanness, and it produces the fruitage of the spirit, not the corrupt works of the flesh. The person having this reproductive seed in himself will therefore not make a practice of the works of the flesh. The apostle Paul comments on this matter: “For God called us, not with allowance for uncleanness, but in connection with sanctification. So, then, the man that shows disregard is disregarding, not man, but God, who puts his holy spirit in you.”—1Th 4:7, 8.

However, one of these spirit-begotten ones who constantly resists the spirit or ‘grieves’ it, that is, ‘saddens’ it or ‘hurts’ it, will eventually cause God to withdraw his spirit. (Eph 4:30, Int; compare Isa 63:10.) A person might go so far as to commit blasphemy against the spirit, which would be calamitous for him. (Mt 12:31, 32; Lu 12:10) Therefore Peter and John stress the need to maintain holiness and the love of God, to love one’s brothers from the heart, and to display submission to the guidance of the spirit of God, thereby proving oneself a true, loyal son of God.—1Pe 1:14-16, 22; 1Jo 2:18, 19; 3:10, 14.
 

Mountain_Climber

Active Member
I appreciate your good intentions, but I would ask that you please not post Watchtower publications to me. I don't read them. I much prefer you speak for yourself. Our conversation is between you and me, not Watchtower and me.
That seems vary narrow to me. I like to learn about the things other push their opinions up from off of. If you just ask questions in search of points to attack that is not what debating is about. That is what looking for a fight is about.
 

Mountain_Climber

Active Member
I find it difficult



The following article brings out that the Greek word used in connection with the Incorruptible seed is spo-ra', not sper'ma. As such it is seed that has already been sown. Not seed that is ready to be sown. (But then the argument was not regarding whether the seed was in the state of being reproductive.) What I find convincing though is the comparison of this seed does at 1 John 3:9 with the cleansing effects of the holy spirit found in Galatians 5.22,23 and 1 Thessalonians 4:7,8. The full article here can be found online at Seed — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

The word of God my dear friend was first sown in Adam and Eve. So that is a possibility that John meant that word which was sown in the beginning remaining in them.

The tree of the knowledge of good and bad can also be seen to represent nibbling some at God's good word of wisdom and while nibbling also at wisdom apart from God's wisdom which is bad by it's limited vision that cannot see it's own pitfalls. That was what set up that enmity mentioned at Genesis 3:15 and continued down to our day. It has always been the wisdom of God as is in his good word in opposition to the wisdom of Satan as in that bad word Satan had sown.

I will investigate that thought concerning spora' before I decide whether or not I can believe even that is true. I don't care to be right for myself. I care to know the truth. And I have no weights on me to have to compromise truth. No set doctrines nor congregations full of people that I need to keep happy.

Added: I almost let you confuse me. But after I thought about it I realized we need not go back that far at all to see when the seed of God's word was sown to their heart. That seed was most certainly already sown by the time John spoke that to them and so the word spora' makes perfect sense. It is already sown so don't forget it. Let it remain there because if you don't let it remain there you are a liar if you claim you are born of God as a follower of Christ. That is what John essentially was saying.
 
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katiemygirl

CHRISTIAN
. So tell me, how do you know that heaven is what has been decided for you?
Very good question Pegg. Thank you for asking. My answer will be somewhat long. Please read my entire post to get an understanding of what I am saying before you respond. I know we tend to jump the gun sometimes because we are so anxious to refute the other person's position, but I am asking you to to carefully consider what I write.

When I was born again, the Lord added me to His ekklesia (church) (Acts 2:41, 47).

So what is His ekklesia? Is it not His called out, His people? It can be shown with Scripture that the the church is God's spiritual kingdom on earth. We know that God's kingdom, His church is present in our world right now. Paul said as much in Colossians 1:13.

When I was baptized INTO Christ, I clothed myself with Christ (Gal. 3:27)

I am IN CHRIST (Gal. 3:27)

Please reread 1 Thess. 4:13-17
Notice:
1. GOD is bringing those who are are asleep in Jesus.
2. The dead in Christ shall rise first.
3. Then we, which are alive will be caught up in the air together with them,
4. To meet the Lord in the air
5. AND SO SHALL WE EVER BE WITH THE LORD.


1 Thess. 4:13-17
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:


17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.


Take note again.
1. Those in Christ shall be made alive
2. Christ first, then those who are His at His coming.
3. Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father;

1 Cor. 15:22-26
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

Jesus will deliver the kingdom to God. Where does God reside Pegg? Nothing is said about an "earthly paradise" in these or any other verses. I have yet to find that phrase anywhere in the Bible. Paul writes that the kingdom will be delivered TO GOD. God resides in heaven. I am in His kingdom.

Now to your question.
I believe what Eph. 4:4 teaches: There is ONE BODY (not two) and one Spirit, just as you also were called in ONE HOPE (not two) of your calling. My hope is exactly what Paul's hope was, a heavenly hope, a heavenly calling.

God decided long ago, before the foundations of the earth who His chosen ones would be. They would be those who are in Christ ( Eph. 1:4). I am in Christ.

Jesus told His disciples in John 14:1-4


14 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.


Tell me Pegg, isn't the Fathers house in heaven? Where did Jesus go to prepare a place for His disciples?

So YES, the decision has been made by GOD. My destination is heaven. Call our eternal home anything you want. It makes no difference to me, as long as we are both there. That's the important point. Whether it's a heavenly realm, a restored earth or both, I DON'T CARE! I have the assurance I will be there because I have been born again. Have you been born again? Are you in Christ? I am in Christ where all spiritual blessings are found. Praise Jehovah, our great and almighty GOD!
 
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katiemygirl

CHRISTIAN
That seems vary narrow to me. I like to learn about the things other push their opinions up from off of. If you just ask questions in search of points to attack that is not what debating is about. That is what looking for a fight is about.
If I want Watchtower opinions, I don't have to go thru you to get them. If you can't speak or think for yourself, then there's no point in you being here. All you're doing is being a robot, parroting Watchtower.

I don't believe I have attacked anyone, or their doctrine, and my questions have been very sincere. I want to know what those people I am dialoging with think, what their thoughts are. I'm trying to get both myself and the person I am communicating with to take a second look at what the Scriptures say. After all, JW's believe as I do. The Bible is our only true source and authority, and not Watchtower. Or maybe you don't believe that?

I will not respond to Watchtower quotes. It's your call whether or not you wish to carry on a conversation with me. I've made my position clear. Stick to the Scriptures! The ball is in your court, my friend.
 
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Shak34

Active Member
Watchtower 1998 2/15 p.13 'Jehovah Brings Many Sons to Glory' - Published by the WTB&TS
(Begin Quote)
“Born From God”
6 Those begotten by Jehovah are “born from God.” Addressing such individuals, the apostle John wrote: “Everyone who has been born from God does not carry on sin, because His [Jehovah’s] reproductive seed remains in such one, and he cannot practice sin, because he has been born from God.” (1 John 3:9) This “reproductive seed” is God’s holy spirit. Working in conjunction with his word, it has given each of the 144,000 “a new birth” to a heavenly hope.—1 Peter 1:3-5, 23.
7 Jesus was God’s Son from his human birth, even as the perfect man Adam was the “son of God.” (Luke 1:35; 3:38) After Jesus’ baptism, however, it was significant that Jehovah declared: “You are my Son, the beloved; I have approved you.” (Mark 1:11) By this declaration accompanying the flow of holy spirit, it was clear that God then brought Jesus forth as His spiritual Son. As it were, Jesus was then given “a new birth” with the right to receive life once more as a spirit Son of God in heaven. Like him, his 144,000 spiritual brothers are “born again.” (John 3:1-8; see The Watchtower, November 15, 1992, pages 3-6.) Also like Jesus, they are anointed by God and commissioned to proclaim good news.—Isaiah 61:1, 2; Luke 4:16-21; 1 John 2:20.
(End Quote)

Mountain_Climber I was wondering where you got this quote? Since the JW online library only goes back as far as 2000, did you find this on a website somewhere or do you have the Watchtower library disc?
 
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Kolibri

Well-Known Member
The word of God my dear friend was first sown in Adam and Eve. So that is a possibility that John meant that word which was sown in the beginning remaining in them.

The tree of the knowledge of good and bad can also be seen to represent nibbling some at God's good word of wisdom and while nibbling also at wisdom apart from God's wisdom which is bad by it's limited vision that cannot see it's own pitfalls. That was what set up that enmity mentioned at Genesis 3:15 and continued down to our day. It has always been the wisdom of God as is in his good word in opposition to the wisdom of Satan as in that bad word Satan had sown.

I will investigate that thought concerning spora' before I decide whether or not I can believe even that is true. I don't care to be right for myself. I care to know the truth. And I have no weights on me to have to compromise truth. No set doctrines nor congregations full of people that I need to keep happy.

Added: I almost let you confuse me. But after I thought about it I realized we need not go back that far at all to see when the seed of God's word was sown to their heart. That seed was most certainly already sown by the time John spoke that to them and so the word spora' makes perfect sense. It is already sown so don't forget it. Let it remain there because if you don't let it remain there you are a liar if you claim you are born of God as a follower of Christ. That is what John essentially was saying.

I didn't mean to confuse. I even added that "reproductive" was not even the issue between your understanding and mine. But it is an issue regarding the way the NWT used to translate 1 Peter 1:23 verses other translations. In the revision it is kept to a footnote instead of in [ ]. It was meant to be an "aside" to our discussion.

The understanding you brought up is a technical one. The most recent articles discussing the nature of this seed were the ones we both referenced.

Is one born again by the spirit, or by the teachings that are in harmony with the spirit? To me that seems to be the defining question as to what that seed is in connection with 1 Peter 1:23 and 1 John 3:9.

"But the one who guarantees that you and we belong to Christ and the one who anointed us is God. He has also put his seal on us and has given us the token of what is to come, (or "the down payment (earnest money); the guarantee (pledge) of what is to come.") that is, the spirit, in our hearts." - 2 Corinthians 1:21,22
 

Mountain_Climber

Active Member
Mountain_Climber I was wondering where you got this quote? Since the JW online library only goes back as far as 2000, did you find this on a website somewhere or do you have the Watchtower library disc?
I own a huge library of works I have collected over the years. But there are British sites one can yet go to get their older pubs. Right off the top of my head I don't recall the particular url but I will let you know what it is when I have the chance to look for it.
 

Shak34

Active Member
I own a huge library of works I have collected over the years. But there are British sites one can yet go to get their older pubs. Right off the top of my head I don't recall the particular url but I will let you know what it is when I have the chance to look for it.
Thanks
 

Mountain_Climber

Active Member
I didn't mean to confuse. I even added that "reproductive" was not even the issue between your understanding and mine. But it is an issue regarding the way the NWT used to translate 1 Peter 1:23 verses other translations. In the revision it is kept to a footnote instead of in [ ]. It was meant to be an "aside" to our discussion.

The understanding you brought up is a technical one. The most recent articles discussing the nature of this seed were the ones we both referenced.

Is one born again by the spirit, or by the teachings that are in harmony with the spirit? To me that seems to be the defining question as to what that seed is in connection with 1 Peter 1:23 and 1 John 3:9.

"But the one who guarantees that you and we belong to Christ and the one who anointed us is God. He has also put his seal on us and has given us the token of what is to come, (or "the down payment (earnest money); the guarantee (pledge) of what is to come.") that is, the spirit, in our hearts." - 2 Corinthians 1:21,22

I don't see that "token of what is to come, that is, the spirit, in our hearts" as being the same thing as 1 John 3:9 but perhaps indirectly. For one thing, the harmony between 1 Peter 1:23 and the thought of that being that seed maintains harmony throughout the entire scriptures.

Here, as follows, is John's reference corresponding to 2 Cor. 1:21,22, .... 1 John 2:3 "And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments."

How is that so? Because that is speaking of the good conscience which Peter says is what saves us. 1 Peter 3:21

It is the holding of that seed of his word of truth in our hearts which enables us not to sin, so that we can know that we know him, because we keep his commandments.

The seed being in us means in our heart where it is secured by love. And if indeed we are really his then His seed of truth remains in our heart secured by our love so that we will always act upon it.

When that sign is absent in anyone it is clear they are none of his.

"having been generated again not out of seed corruptible but incorruptible through word of living God and remaining" 1 Peter 1:23 Direct Translation - Westcott-Hort

The point is that what we get through God's incorruptible word are the seed of incorruptible truths. When our hearts truly love those truths, that truth transforms us. It is powerful by God because it is his incorruptible truth.

The contrast is the corruptible word of man's wisdom through which we get corruptible truths because they are mixed with complete untruths by our ignorance. And there is a transforming power about those seeds of untruth when we love them in our hearts, powerful by someone other than God.

You may recall Jesus saying that the truth will set us free?

That truth has to be and remain in us if it can do that.
 
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Mountain_Climber

Active Member
I tried looking on line to find it and I don't see it listed anywhere anymore. However, I know I have it written down in my notes somewhere. It will just take me more time to look for the right note as I have so many of them. And even then I don't know if the url will be good any longer. It appears much has changed since my last need for that url.

Give me a while longer.
 

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
Very good question Pegg. Thank you for asking. My answer will be somewhat long. Please read my entire post to get an understanding of what I am saying before you respond. I know we tend to jump the gun sometimes because we are so anxious to refute the other person's position, but I am asking you to to carefully consider what I write.

When I was born again, the Lord added me to His ekklesia (church) (Acts 2:41, 47).

So what is His ekklesia? Is it not His called out, His people? It can be shown with Scripture that the the church is God's spiritual kingdom on earth. We know that God's kingdom, His church is present in our world right now. Paul said as much in Colossians 1:13.

When I was baptized INTO Christ, I clothed myself with Christ (Gal. 3:27)

I am IN CHRIST (Gal. 3:27)

Please reread 1 Thess. 4:13-17
Notice:
1. GOD is bringing those who are are asleep in Jesus.
2. The dead in Christ shall rise first.
3. Then we, which are alive will be caught up in the air together with them,
4. To meet the Lord in the air
5. AND SO SHALL WE EVER BE WITH THE LORD.


1 Thess. 4:13-17
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:


17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.


Take note again.
1. Those in Christ shall be made alive
2. Christ first, then those who are His at His coming.
3. Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father;

1 Cor. 15:22-26
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

Jesus will deliver the kingdom to God. Where does God reside Pegg? Nothing is said about an "earthly paradise" in these or any other verses. I have yet to find that phrase anywhere in the Bible. Paul writes that the kingdom will be delivered TO GOD. God resides in heaven. I am in His kingdom.

Now to your question.
I believe what Eph. 4:4 teaches: There is ONE BODY (not two) and one Spirit, just as you also were called in ONE HOPE (not two) of your calling. My hope is exactly what Paul's hope was, a heavenly hope, a heavenly calling.

God decided long ago, before the foundations of the earth who His chosen ones would be. They would be those who are in Christ ( Eph. 1:4). I am in Christ.

Jesus told His disciples in John 14:1-4


14 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.


Tell me Pegg, isn't the Fathers house in heaven? Where did Jesus go to prepare a place for His disciples?

So YES, the decision has been made by GOD. My destination is heaven. Call our eternal home anything you want. It makes no difference to me, as long as we are both there. That's the important point. Whether it's a heavenly realm, a restored earth or both, I DON'T CARE! I have the assurance I will be there because I have been born again. Have you been born again? Are you in Christ? I am in Christ where all spiritual blessings are found. Praise Jehovah, our great and almighty GOD!

Im not going to question whether you are an anointed one or not. That is between yourself and Jehovah for he is the one doing the choosing.

And i guess that as an anointed one, you are one of the few from among mankind who are able to master the 'new song' spoken of in the book of Revelation. I am not anointed so dont know that song which signifies to me that I will be among the 'other sheep' as Jesus mentioned in John 10:16

But one thing i can show you are the very many references to the earthly hope and its this hope that I am holding out for:

Psalm 37;29 The righteous will possess the earth,+And they will live forever on it.

Ps 37:9 "...But those hoping in Jehovah will possess the earth"

Ps 115:9 As for the heavens, they belong to Jehovah,+But the earth he has given to the sons of men.

Ps 45:18
For this is what Jehovah says,
The Creator of the heavens,+ the true God,
The One who formed the earth, its Maker who firmly established it,+
Who did not create it simply for nothing,* but formed it to be inhabited



Luke 23: 43 And he said to him: “Truly I tell you today, you will be with me in Paradise.”
 

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
Very good question Pegg. Thank you for asking. My answer will be somewhat long. Please read my entire post to get an understanding of what I am saying before you respond. I know we tend to jump the gun sometimes because we are so anxious to refute the other person's position, but I am asking you to to carefully consider what I write.

When I was born again, the Lord added me to His ekklesia (church) (Acts 2:41, 47).

I just wanted to make a point here about being 'born again'

When Jesus was speaking to Nicodemus about the subject, we can see from Nicodemus response that 'born again' describes a 'new beginning'
It prompted Nic to ask "Can a man enter into the womb of his mother a second time" and then Jesus when on to describe the 'wind' and linked being born again with being a 'spirit' person.

So It appears from this that to be born again requires one to die in the flesh first.

Have you died a physical death and are you now in the form of a spirit like Jesus?
 

Mountain_Climber

Active Member
Pegg cited, Ps 115:9 "As for the heavens, they belong to Jehovah,+But the earth he has given to the sons of men."

I ask: Who was the rulership of this earth given to? Jesus the risen spirit being? Or, Jesus the man? You need to ponder that. Jesus the man will always walk this earth to keep that covenant made to man so long as that 144.000 who are his body remain on this earth so that he walks as that one man of David's flesh that sits on David's throne through them..

This is what baffles me about Jehovah's Witness. At places like Hebrews 1:9 they correctly recognize that Jesus' "partners" (NWT) or "fellows" (KJV) are the human line of Judaic kings. Yet they change their logic back and forth so that in relation to Psalms 115:9 they think of the expression "the earth he has given to the sons of men" as differentiating these away from the 144,000 as to where they live. But the fact is that those who will rule under that covenant made with a man, the man David, is fulfilled, not in a spirit being, but in the man Jesus.

Again, Jehovah's Witnesses have been taught correctly that at Hebrews 1:13 this was not said to an angel, but rather was said to Jesus the man. ("But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?) And yet they cannot see what 1 Peter 1:4 is saying, for thinking Peter is saying the 144,000 will be literally going to heaven, all by their interpretation of the statement, "It is reserved in the heavens for YOU."

The word, "reserved", there at 1 Peter 1:4 literally means, "watched" or "guarded". It matters not at all that this inheritance is their future here on this earth, for that future here on this earth is guarded for them in heaven. In other words, it is guaranteed by heaven where it is being watched out for so that it will definitely come to be, right here on earth.

Tell me why Jehovah's Witnesses shift all around inconsistently in their logic like that? Tell me why they can see somethings correctly as relating to Jesus the man but then fail to do so in other critical places of scripture?

I am beginning to conclude that they are right who claim you worship those men who say they are God's elect governing body. For I am having a great deal of difficulty figuring out why you are so hypnotized that you are seeing things about their going to heaven in the scriptures that are not there. I am having a great deal of difficulty understanding why you and they seek to exalt themselves instead of having the attitude of a good for nothing slave that what he does is simply what he ought to do, no strings attached such as promises of special habitation in heaven as spirit creature whist the rest of us pitiful mortals over whom they will rule remain under their feet on God's footstool.

What a pretty picture. You make God out to show partiality and have no faith that the rest of the harvest will also ripen to the level of maturity of those firstfruits.

There is no other way to see what you are doing but absolutely shameful.
 
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Mountain_Climber

Active Member
Note what is missing in the following summation of enslavement to sin:

(IOTS=Insight On The Scriptures Volume 2, page 979, headingSlave”, subheading "Enslavement to Sin")

IOTS Quote: “Enslavement to Sin. At the time the first man Adam disobeyed God’s law, he surrendered perfect control of himself and yielded to the selfish desire to continue sharing association with his sinful wife and pleasing her.”

My Interjection: That assumption seems reasonable but since the subject is enslavement to sin, what other very important thing did Adam sacrifice beyond “control of himself”? Might the input of divine knowledge and the divine wisdom to understand and use that knowledge correctly be even far more important? Then why have these so astute ones failed to mention it, given the subject they are addressing?

IOTS Quote: “Adam’s surrendering himself to his sinful desire made this desire and its end product, sin, his master. (Compare Ro 6:16; Jas 1:14, 15; see SIN, I.) He thus sold himself under sin. As all of his offspring were yet in his loins, Adam also sold them under sin. That is why the apostle Paul wrote: “I am fleshly, sold under sin.” (Ro 7:14) For this reason there was no way for any of Adam’s descendants to make themselves righteous, not even by trying to keep the Mosaic Law. As the apostle Paul put it: “The commandment which was to life, this I found to be to death.” (Ro 7:10) The inability of humans to keep the Law perfectly showed that they were slaves to sin and deserving of death, not life.”

My Interjection: Wasn't it also caused of Adam giving away his birthright like Esau? Adam was born with the right to direct access to the righteousness of God, God's righteous knowledge and wisdom. Is not his throwing that right away what made him unable to defend himself against sin and we along with him? Is that not what caused him to be sold under sin to become it's slave? I mean sure, it likely began with the desire to keep his wife but is that all we need to know about it? Isn't it at the very least equally important that we understand that it was his sacrificing the knowledge and wisdom he had been receiving from God that placed him under sin's control?

Yes, he was not deceived as was Eve according to Paul, whom I believe. So Adam knew what he was sacrificing. Adam knew he was sacrificing the God fearing man who walked in the knowledge and wisdom of God. And that is why any of us must now sacrifice the man who does not walk in the knowledge and wisdom of God and rise with Christ to begin learning and walking in that man who is like Adam was before he chose to sin.
 
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Mountain_Climber

Active Member
It is so very simple to see everywhere we go in the scriptures what 1 Corinthians 15:50 is really saying:

(1 Corinthians 6:9-11) 9 What! Do YOU not know that unrighteous persons will not inherit God’s kingdom? Do not be misled. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men kept for unnatural purposes, nor men who lie with men, 10 nor thieves, nor greedy persons, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit God’s kingdom. 11 And yet that is what some of YOU were. But YOU have been washed clean, but YOU have been sanctified, but YOU have been declared righteous in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ and with the spirit of our God.”

Just what is the contrast to that above?

(1 Corinthians 6:9-11 worded in contrast) 9 What! Do YOU not know that righteous persons will inherit God’s kingdom. Do not be misled. Men who are not fornicators will inherit God’s kingdom, and men who are not idolaters will inherit God’s kingdom, and men who are not adulterers will inherit God’s kingdom, and men who are not kept for unnatural purposes will inherit God’s kingdom, and men who do not lie with men will inherit God’s kingdom, 10 and men who are not thieves will inherit God’s kingdom, and men who are not greedy persons will inherit God’s kingdom, and men who are not drunkards will inherit God’s kingdom, and men who are not revilers will inherit God’s kingdom, and men who are not extortioners will inherit God’s kingdom. 11 And yet that is what some of YOU were not. But YOU are now washed clean, and YOU are now sanctified, and YOU are now declared righteous in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ and with a [holy] spirit [as] of our God [as the force actuating your mind].”

(Ephesians 4:23-24) 23 but that YOU should be made new in the force actuating* YOUR mind, 24 and should put on the new personality which was created according to God’s will in true righteousness and loyalty. (*4:23 Or “in the force actuating your mind.” Lit., “to the spirit of your mind.”, footnote from 2013 edition.)

Why?

Because it is not by flesh and blood that one inherits the kingdom. In other words, It is not by fleshly lineage that one inherits the kingdom.

You can only inherit the kingdom by being made new in the spirit of your mind. Only that renewed spirit in your mind can inherit it. Then the man in subjection to that renewed spirit is welcome and only then, because corruption cannot inherit incorporation. No, incorruption comes only from that same renewed spirit actuating your mind:

Romans 8:10 But if Christ is in union with YOU, the body [for now] indeed is dead on account of sin, but the spirit is life on account of righteousness. 11 If, now, the spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwells in YOU, he that raised up Christ Jesus from the dead will also make YOUR mortal bodies alive through his spirit that resides in YOU.

We need to discuss more about that spirit so that you stop mystifying it. You have gotten away from some of Christendom's mystification but you are not yet complete.
 
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katiemygirl

CHRISTIAN
Im not going to question whether you are an anointed one or not. That is between yourself and Jehovah for he is the one doing the choosing.

And i guess that as an anointed one, you are one of the few from among mankind who are able to master the 'new song' spoken of in the book of Revelation. I am not anointed so dont know that song which signifies to me that I will be among the 'other sheep' as Jesus mentioned in John 10:16

But one thing i can show you are the very many references to the earthly hope and its this hope that I am holding out for:

Psalm 37;29 The righteous will possess the earth,+And they will live forever on it.

Ps 37:9 "...But those hoping in Jehovah will possess the earth"

Ps 115:9 As for the heavens, they belong to Jehovah,+But the earth he has given to the sons of men.

Ps 45:18
For this is what Jehovah says,
The Creator of the heavens,+ the true God,
The One who formed the earth, its Maker who firmly established it,+
Who did not create it simply for nothing,* but formed it to be inhabited



Luke 23: 43 And he said to him: “Truly I tell you today, you will be with me in Paradise.”
All christians are anointed. Every single person who believes Jesus Christ is the Son of God, that has repented and put on Christ in baptism has been born again, anointed (set apart), sealed with the Holy Spirit, saved.

Unless you have been born of water and the Spirit, you will not see nor will you enter the kingdom of God.

What is the "Biblical" definition of born again? What does your Bible dictionary say? Would you mind posting it for me?

Pegg, you never answered my most important question. Does the kingdom of God encompass "paradise earth?"
 
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katiemygirl

CHRISTIAN
I just wanted to make a point here about being 'born again'

When Jesus was speaking to Nicodemus about the subject, we can see from Nicodemus response that 'born again' describes a 'new beginning'
It prompted Nic to ask "Can a man enter into the womb of his mother a second time" and then
Jesus when on to describe the 'wind' and linked being born again with being a 'spirit' person.

So It appears from this that to be born again requires one to die in the flesh first.

Have you died a physical death and are you now in the form of a spirit like Jesus?
No, I haven't died a physical death. :)

Are you saying that only those who experience physical death are born again?


 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
John 3:3 ESV /
Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

2 Corinthians 5:17 ESV /
Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come.

John 3:36 ESV /
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.

Ephesians 1:11-14 ESV /
In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.

Galatians 2:20 ESV /
I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.

Romans 10:10 ESV /
For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.

1 Peter 1:23 ESV /
Since you have been born again, not of perishable seed but of imperishable, through the living and abiding word of God
 
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