Christianity... An issue,

Booko said:

If I was dancing around anything, it's because I have learned from hard experience that when conversing with someone from Sandy's pov, taking the issue head on in a first post is not likely to produce either communication or civility. And as you see, even being tactful and trying to develop a thread slowly is no guarantee of success.

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You are being obscure again. Perhaps reviewing the issue in question will help. The premise is that the you believe the Bible. I am using the quote by Jesus that no man gets to the father but by Him and that it means exactly that. Old or New Testament.

To answer the question about the Old Testament Jews. if you believe in the Old Testament exclusively then they were saved by Jehovah. If you believe in both the Old and the New Testament then according to John 14:6 (and can be backed up by other text) everyone gets to the Father through Jesus (And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved." Acts 4:12).

Now, without going into rubbish about Jews who have trouble with simple sentences, what part of John14:6 causes confusion?

lunamoth said:

Ah then, forgive me for interfering.

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??? Seriously Laurie, there's nothing to forgive, and I didn't think you were interfering. Your assumptions were perfectly reasonable, and you wouldn't have any reason to know some of my pet peeves about literary interpretations, whether they are applied to texts that are religious or non-religious.

(Interfering? Uh...it's a public thread?)

Well, I certainly can't speak for what others believe, but I don't see any scripture, doctrine or dogma that says I'm condemned myself if I don't believe others are condemned.

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No, neither do I. I always thought that was God's job anyway.

Though it can be mighty useful to reflect on what I've been up to and whether it would fly or not. That part, I figure, is definitely my job.

sandy whitelinger said:

Jesus is not Jehovah. What hasn't been answered is (assuming that one accepts the Bible, which was a focal point previously) how to answer the quote by Jesus that no man gets to the Father (Jehovah) but by Him?

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I realize that this is what you believe, but I disagree. I believe that the Jesus Christ of the New Testament was, in fact, Jehovah of the Old Testament. If I'm right -- and it's simply your opinion against mine -- then Moses did accept Christ.

Steve said:

He is right, you will be sent to hell for your sins.
You can be forgiven because Jesus paid for your sins on the Cross but instead because you are self-righteous and believe you haved lived a "fairly decent life" you shun Gods forgivness - you dont believe you need it.
God will not judge us by our standard of decency - he is perfect, have you ever lied? Stolen? Lusted? I know ive done all those things and its not until we realise that we would stand guilty befor a Holy Perfect God that we realise we need his forgiveness.

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Here, you are acting as the Judge (and jury) for God; you are placing judgment and sending someone to hell before either God or Jesus could judge a person, is the sort of stupidity I expect from Christians of the like of you. You would be at home, during Great Inquisition, because you have all the prerequisites of the noble occupation of witch-hunt and persecution.

You speak of frg001's "self-righteousness", and yet from your own statement of passing judgment upon someone you don't even know, based solely upon your own self-righteousness; and that's very shallow.

Booko said:

Who knows? Maybe frg001 just hasn't heard God yet because his life has been filled with self-righteous theists loudly screaming "you're going to hell!" in his ears.

Some years ago, I was certainly in that position.

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So was I, when I was in my late teen.

I simply got sick of it, and had ignored religion altogether for years. There is nothing worse than Christians telling I will go to hell. It sound like using scare-tactics or scare-mongering, to pressure a person into accepting a religion.

gnostic said:

So was I, when I was in my late teen.

I simply got sick of it, and had ignored religion altogether for years. There is nothing worse than Christians telling I will go to hell. It sound like using scare-tactics or scare-mongering, to pressure a person into accepting a religion.

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Very true, but fortunately, most Christians don't do that. Also, there seem to be fewer that do that with every passing year.

...and there was much rejoicing.

I do hope so.

I had only became interested in religion again a few ago, when I stumbled translations of gnostic texts.

The other problem I don't like about Christianity, particular American-style Christianity is those TV preachers/evangelists. They give Christianity a very bad name.

gnostic said:

The other problem I don't like about Christianity, particular American-style Christianity is those TV preachers/evangelists. They give Christianity a very bad name.

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Yes, they do. I feel very sorry for the normal Christians who always have to field questions as if they approved of that stuff.

One wonders if Jesus were here today whether he wouldn't show up on a few of those tv programmes and turn over some tables.

Plus ca change...la meme chose.

Ophiuchus said:

Hey now, not all TV Preachers are crazy, I have seen many TV Preachers that are opposite in character to the typical stereotype.

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Are they local ones? I've seen some local programmes that are just churches trying to attract people to their religion or ministering to shut ins. They're fine, mostly.

Other than that...who do you think is opposite to the stereotype?

Ophiuchus said:

I forget their names, but i dont remember them saying things like, " your going to hell if you dont believe in christ" or "People who commit sins will be punished for eternity in hell". their message was more about careing for your family and friends, loving all people, forgiving trespasses that have been made against you, and doing nothing but good even to those who treat you badly.

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Rev. Schuller is about the only one I can think of offhand.

The other ones I see seem to have more to say about going to hell, or sending them money so they can pray for you, or about how God will heal you or send you money if only...well, you know, the usual snake oil salesman bit.

It rather ruins it for the rest of the Christians out there who are just doing their job spreading the Gospel, because these other guys are so much more visible, if not downright vociferous.

Er...wow...do you realize this is now the 3rd topic that's taken place in this thread? Uh...oops.

Popular TV preachers


11/18/2003
Joyce Meyer is one of America's best-known prosperity-gospel TV ministers - preachers who teach that personal wealth can be attained through a strong faith in God and a strict adherence to the Bible.

Following is an alphabetical list of a new wave of popular word-faith ministers who have used television to build large followings:



Juanita Bynum

Headquarters: Waycross, Ga.

Reach: Her program, "Weapons of Power," is seen worldwide on TBN; she holds conferences throughout the United States.

Wealth: No information available.

In the news: In April, Bynum married Thomas Wesley Weeks III in the palatial Regent Wall Street Hotel in New York City. The ceremony featured a wedding party of 80, a platinum-colored satin bridal gown with a bodice covered in Swarovski crystals and a 7.76-carat diamond ring.



Kenneth and Gloria Copeland

Headquarters: Fort Worth, Texas

Reach: Ministry Web site says its TV show, "Believer's Voice of Victory," is seen by more than 76 million households on nearly 700 U.S. stations. Show also airs on about 135 international stations.

Wealth: A ministry official estimates the ministry's annual revenue at $70 million.

In the news: In June, the Copelands joined four other TV preachers who gathered around Oral Roberts, 85, considered the grandfather of the prosperity gospel, to pray for healing the failing founder of the university that bears his name.



Jan and Paul Crouch

Headquarters: Costa Mesa, Calif.

Reach: The Crouches are owners of Trinity Broadcast Network, the world's largest Christian TV network. TBN reaches millions of viewers on more than 5,000 TV stations and 33 international satellites around the world.

Wealth: The Crouches and their son Paul Crouch Jr. said they earned a total of $855,000 last year. TBN's annual income exceeds $100 million a year, according to the Los Angeles Times. The ministry provides the Crouches a $10 million, 80-acre, eight-home ranch near Dallas and two Land Rovers that the Crouches drive. In 2001, the couple bought a $5 million oceanfront estate in Newport Beach, Calif.

In the news: The ministry recently purchased the Nashville, Tenn., home and estate of the late country music performer Conway Twitty and opened Trinity Music City USA as a tourist attraction there.



Creflo Dollar

Headquarters: College Park, Ga.

Reach: Dollar's "Changing Your World" TV program on TBN reaches 150 countries.

Wealth: The ministry's income is unavailable, but newspaper accounts say the ministry paid $18 million in cash for his new 8,000-seat World Changers Church International on the southern edge of Atlanta. He drives a black Rolls-Royce and travels in a $5 million private jet.

In the news: Dollar's ministry became a focus of a court case involving boxer Evander Holyfield in 1999. The lawyer for Holyfield's ex-wife estimated that the fighter gave Dollar's ministry $7 million. Dollar refused to testify in the case.



Marilyn Hickey

Headquarters: Denver

Reach: Her TV show, "Today with Marilyn," on the TBN and Black Entertainment Television networks can be seen around the world. She has offices in England, South Africa and Australia, and is on the board of Oral Roberts University.

Wealth: Her ministry occupies a 260,000-square-foot former shopping mall in Denver. No information on ministry or her personal wealth is available.

In the news: She has been dubbed the "fairy godmother of the word-faith movement" and "the mistress of mail-order madness," by the Texas-based Christian Sentinel, a ministry that monitors what it calls "religious deception." Hickey got the "mistress" name for her use of trinkets - blessed cornmeal, cloths, seeds and coins - sent out to followers to urge them to send in money.



Benny Hinn

Headquarters: Grapevine, Texas

Reach: Hinn's "This is Your Day" program is seen throughout the United States and in nearly 200 foreign countries.

Wealth: The ministry took in $60 million in 2001. A news story earlier this year in the Colorado Springs Gazette said annual income now exceeds $90 million. Hinn told CNN in 1997 that he drew an annual salary of $500,000 to $1 million a year. He has a $3.5 million home in the Los Angeles area and drives an $80,000 Mercedes-Benz G500.

In the news: A "Dateline" segment on NBC examined five of Hinn's faith-healing "miracles," showing that none of the people was cured and that one woman with lung cancer died nine months later.



Rodney Howard-Browne

Headquarters: The River at Tampa Bay, Tampa, Fla.

Reach: His live broadcasts from his River at Tampa Bay Church stream online on his Internet site www.revival.com and can be seen worldwide.

Wealth: He and his wife, Adonica, oversee his $16 million church, which they founded in 1996. The couple live in a six-bedroom, four-bath lakefront home on Cory Lake in northwest Tampa. The home includes a dock, spa, pool and gazebo.

In the news: Howard-Browne has called himself the "bartender of holy laughter." Holy laughter was a controversial movement that swept evangelical circles in the mid-1990s. He would walk on stage laughing uncontrollably. The congregation would begin laughing. Howard-Browne would sweep his arm toward the crowd. People would appear "drunk on the Holy Spirit" and slide out of their chairs or dance in the aisles.



T.D. Jakes

Headquarters: Dallas

Reach: Jakes' "The Potter's House" TV program is seen throughout the world on TBN and Black Entertainment Television. His ministry boasts more than 26,000 members. A rally at the Georgia Dome in 1999 drew more than 100,000 people.

Wealth: He has mansions in Charleston, W.Va., and Dallas.

In the news: Called the best preacher in America by Time magazine in 2001.



Robert Tilton

Headquarters: Miami

Reach: He once ran his Farmers Branch Church in Dallas before scandal toppled it in the early 1990s. His show now airs on Black Entertainment Television and has a potential audience of 74 million homes.

Wealth: He is building a two-story home on a $1.39 million oceanfront lot on an island in Biscayne Bay off Miami Beach, and his ministry owns a 50-foot yacht. His ministry takes in about $24 million a year.

In the news: Tilton is rebounding after his ministry collapsed in scandal a decade ago amid news reports that prayer requests he said he personally prayed over were found in a trash bin after the money, food stamps and rings had been removed.



Randy and Paula White

Headquarters: The Without Walls International Church, Tampa, Fla.

Reach: The "Paula White Today" TV show can be seen worldwide on TBN and Black Entertainment Television. The ministry's Operation Explosion travels into public housing complexes with "rolling theatre-style pink trucks" to share Christianity in a Nickelodeon-type program for underprivileged children.

Wealth: The Whites live in a $2.1 million, 8,000-square-foot home facing Tampa Bay. Their ministry owns a jet airplane, a Cadillac Escalade and a Mercedes-Benz sedan.

In the news: Paula White calls Joyce Meyer her mentor; Meyer visited their church in September.


info from here

Ophiuchus said:

Then again a guys got to push a lot of bibles to make it to the big time. TV aint free, and im sure many of the good TV Preachers out there have to sell something in order to spread the gospel to the masses.

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I think Jeffrey's post indicates what most of it is, though.

Like I said, there are some local churches that just put their services out there and whatnot, and sure, they need money to support that, but most of the nationally broadcast ones seem to have more to do with making the preacher(s) rich.

I don't think they nationally broadcast preachers have to be living in a small bungalow or anything like that, but there's a point where it becomes kinda obvious what the real motivation is.

I'm just glad "Baha'i televangelist" is an oxymoron, and will continue to be so. (Our law prevents us taking money from non-Baha'is.) It means I don't have to bother fielding questions like the kind the Christians have to put up with.

I have not seen any local ones. I lived in Australia, and we seemed to be getting ones from the US. I just switch it off or change the channel whenever I come across them.

I find normally masses boring, and though some of these tv evangelists may not be as boring, it seemed obvious to me that they are there only to make money from the worshippers.

I'd like to return the debate to something I was musing about earlier, and I'd like other Christians to perhaps expound or refute the statement that was made by Sandy, and that I somehow misunderstood.




Is Christ the God Jehovah of the OT? How many Christians believe this?



Were David and Moses really Christians and didn't know it if they truly did accept Jesus into their hearts? I am unfortunately quite confused over this issue.




I'd never heard of this point of view before.





Peace,
Mystic

Some Christians believed Jesus is God's incarnation, so therefore he is God. While others believed in the Father and Son in the literal sense. There is actually a split among Christians on both accounts.

Either, could be a valid argument, but then again, without proof, not of these argument are true.

Hence my confusion on the issue. :help:




Peace,
Mystic

MysticSang'ha said:

I'd like to return the debate to something I was musing about earlier, and I'd like other Christians to perhaps expound or refute the statement that was made by Sandy, and that I somehow misunderstood.

Is Christ the God Jehovah of the OT? How many Christians believe this?
Mystic

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I believe in the trinity and that Christ is separate from Jehovah (the Father).

MysticSang'ha said:

Were David and Moses really Christians and didn't know it if they truly did accept Jesus into their hearts? I am unfortunately quite confused over this issue.
Mystic

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The issue is really that they professed to follow the Lord /believed in God. this belief allowed the atoning work of Christ on the cross to cover their sins and pay the price for sin. As to whether they were Christians or not it is more likely that Christians are Jews by faith. Gentiles are the grafted branch found in the New Testament. Scripture also says that one is not a Jew by circumcision of the flesh but by circumcision of the heart. This is a faith matter.

Actually, Moses did meet Christ, as did Elijah:

1And he said to them, "I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the kingdom of God come with power." 2After six days Jesus took Peter, James and John with him and led them up a high mountain, where they were all alone. There he was transfigured before them. 3His clothes became dazzling white, whiter than anyone in the world could bleach them. 4And there appeared before them Elijah and Moses, who were talking with Jesus. (Mark 9, NIV)

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What's a little time-folding when you're with God?

lunamoth

MysticSang'ha said:

Is Christ the God Jehovah of the OT? How many Christians believe this?

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As far as I know, the only Christians who believe that Jesus Christ of the New Testament is the same individual as Jehovah of the Old Testament are the Latter-day Saints. Don't let this confuse you, though. We do not believe that Jesus Christ is the same individual as God the Father (the first member of the Godhead). We refer to that individual as "Elohim." I could site a number of Biblical references for this belief, although it isn't strictly from the Bible that we find support for this doctrine.

Were David and Moses really Christians and didn't know it if they truly did accept Jesus into their hearts? I am unfortunately quite confused over this issue.

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Again, the LDS response to this question will differ from that of most, if not all, other Christians. We believe that the entire gospel plan was known to Adam, Enoch, Noah, Abraham and Moses. The gospel has been the same since the beginning. It never has and never will change. It is truth, and truth is constant. It is an eternal principle. All of the Old Testament prophets had faith in Jesus Christ, and knew that He would someday be born on this earth and die to redeem the souls of all mankind. So, in that sense, we believe these individuals were Christians.

I'd never heard of this point of view before.

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That doesn't surprise me in the slightest. Now you have!

ok first off im not gonna read through 15 pages of text just to make sure i dont repeat someone elses reply... call me impatient. second im new here being why im not gonna do that.
now for the real question here... IF there is a heaven and a hell and people that dont believe but live good lives are sent to hell and murderous child killing baby raping thugs are sent to heaven because they have regretted thier sins i think i can honestly say id rather go to hell... seems to me there is a better class of people there:jam: