So...just what is your reason and purpose for existence?

cardero · Apr 29, 2006

Previosly On RF.........

A Purpose can be many things, a few things, or nothing.

In life there are many things to experience and the choices of purpose can be as numerous as stars in the sky. We may know someone who likes to put their hands in many baskets. They may not accomplish or master these experiences but their purpose may be to sample them. Some people may go many years without any specific purpose or a purpose that manifests later in their existence. A purpose does not necessarily have to be a life changing moment that hits you over the head. Some people have no purpose (that can be perceived), which in itself, is a purpose. Their earthly existence may just be the equivalent of an unplanned vacation or a canoeing venture on a river.

An individuals purpose is not subject to others scrutiny or judgment. There is no right or wrong to a purpose achieved or a purpose unfulfilled.

Everyone knows someone who has done something that completely goes contrary to the way we think or act. Sometimes we do not understand why a person does something even though many people have warned, advised, are strongly suggested a different course of action for this other individual. This is great example of a person following purpose. Regardless of what we say or do to another person, they feel compelled to go through with this experience. Whenever someone says I do not understand why someone would do that rest assured you are probably witnessing someone enacting purpose for their lives. Do not be harsh or condescending towards this person, remember it is their purpose and not yours. A purpose unfulfilled does have the opportunity to be repeated in another lifetime.

A Purpose can be self-centered, shared or crossover into many lives.

A purpose can be specifically designed for the needs or wants of an individual or it can shared with some other individual. There are even purposes that produce a ripple effect that impress upon many people in many different ways. There are not many examples of purpose that intrudes in other peoples lives unless it is invited, expected or desired.

An individuals Purpose cannot be taught or given. You will not find any qualified earthly organization or institution authorized to teach or explain someone else's purpose.

Purpose is oftentimes a personal expression. It usually has a significant meaning only to the person who chooses it. The reason you are living a physical existence is to try to accomplish this plan or purpose. Rarely are the reasons and purpose for this existence already waiting for you when you get here nor are there other people waiting to be confronted to tell you what it means for your life. Indeed the best purposes are remembered, discovered and rationalized by the individual who experiences them.

And if that doesnt convince you, look at how much confusion I am contributing just trying to define and explain it.

A purpose can be changed at a moments notice.

The most carefully intended purposes are established before you arrive to a physical existence. It is usually this incentive that convinces you to choose what physical life form you will become. Free will often takes precedence over the most carefully planned purposes. This same free will could be employed to keep you on the path of a carefully planned purpose.

Every living thing has a purpose.

Sometimes there is a basic purpose that a living entity may express. One example may be plants that put oxygen into the air or animals that provide food for other living things. Again, it may not be a desirable purpose for most and one may not understand why an entity would choose such a purpose but it satisfies that entity that has chosen this existence.

A purpose is always chosen to learn or teach a lesson or for soul growth or to balance karma or to appeal to a Higher BEing.

This statement is false.

Purpose is best viewed in hindsight.

The execution of Purpose could be equivalent to imagining a human figure, and with a set time, putting a pencil to paper and drawing a human figure without looking at the paper or lifting the pencil. The drawing can be fulfilled and looked at when the picture is done and you can see what you have drawn. Does the picture resemble the subject you have imagined to draw? Do you like the way the picture turned out? Does it matter what other people think of the picture you have drawn?

Sometimes purpose can be easily remembered or recognized by objectively looking around to see what you are doing now. Sometimes purpose can be remembered or recognized at the end of your life when you are reflecting back on your accumulated experiences. The best way to view your earthly purpose is when you are completely detached from the physical existence.

cardero · Apr 29, 2006

cardero writes: A Purpose can be many things, a few things, or nothing.

In life there are many things to experience and the choices of purpose can be as numerous as stars in the sky.

s2a repies: OK. Then it's fair to say that, from your perspective/understanding, one's own purpose is a choice to be made for oneself, to claim for oneself, exclusive (or unique) to oneself? One may not need make a choice?
[How does that Rush song go..."If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice"? ;-)]

cardero writes: We may know someone who likes to put their hands in many baskets. They may not accomplish or master these experiences but their purpose may be to sample them.

s2a replies: OK. To what end? Any?

cardero writes: Some people may go many years without any specific purpose or a purpose that manifests later in their existence.

s2a replies: Indeed. Is this a good thing, a bad thing, or an inconsequential thing?

cardero writes: A purpose does not necessarily have to be a life changing moment that hits you over the head.

s2a replies: Agreed.

cardero writes:Some people have no purpose (that can be perceived), which in itself, is a purpose.

s2a replies: Hmmmm....

cardero writes: Their earthly existence may just be the equivalent of an unplanned vacation or a canoeing venture on a river.

s2a replies: One might argue that vacations (unplanned or not) serve to promote relaxation/escape from daily cares/concerns, and that canoeing (or camping rafting, climbing, biking, whathaveyou) serves the same "purpose" (in and of itself). Of course, in this case, we are connoting a purpose upon engaging a chosen activity, which differs from any self-assignations of a personalized purpose.
One may feel a pang of hunger upon passing a McDonalds, and choose to step inside a buy a hamburger. The "purpose" served in this instance was in sating an unplanned or momentary urge, by means of circumstantial convenience. Besides aspects of personal taste in food, I find no ascribable or pertinent impact as it relates to an individual's chosen (or unchosen) "purpose (in existence)" - unless a hastening to one's end to thusly become worm food is one's assumed "purpose" in existence.

cardero writes: An individuals purpose is not subject to others scrutiny or judgment.

s2a replies: Hmmm. If one individual's purpose is to rise to power or wealth by unscrupulous, cruel, or illegal means - I know I'd like to hold that individual accountable for their actions.

cardero writes:There is no right or wrong to a purpose achieved or a purpose unfulfilled.

s2a replies: Philosophically, that's a sentiment many might defend. Pragmatically, I would simply say, "That depends...". Is waste/squander (of food, effort, time or existence) a good (or "right") thing?
One might observe that in the infinite realm of the cosmos, no individual's existence (or chosen purpose therein) is of any meaningful, influential, or lasting consequence. But that's looking from the "outside-in", akin to peering at a single-celled microbe through the magnifying lens of a microscope. With such a perspective, one might readily conclude that the microbe serves an indifferent purpose of existence (at least to the observer), which also confers an amoral assessment of whether or not the microbe actually fulfills any purpose in it's existence. But in fact, the microbe does serve a purpose (whether it has chosen one for itself or not), regardless of whether or not an observer perceives/understands that microbial "purpose", or assigns an estimation of value, "success", or morality upon it's own minute purpose.

Microbes ingest decaying matter (amongst many other things). From our perspective, that's the microbe's "purpose". From the microbe's perspective, well, he's just doing what his limited genetic make-up and evolved function allow him to do. The microbe has no self-sense of purpose, yet we may observe it to be exercising it's evident purpose as "a good thing".

cardero writes: Everyone knows someone who has done something that completely goes contrary to the way we think or act. Sometimes we do not understand why a person does something even though many people have warned, advised, are strongly suggested a different course of action for this other individual. This is great example of a person following purpose.

s2a replies: Or, what some might call insanity. ;-)

cardero writes: Regardless of what we say or do to another person, they feel compelled to go through with this experience. Whenever someone says I do not understand why someone would do that rest assured you are probably witnessing someone enacting purpose for their lives.

s2a replies: As a skeptic, you'd probably understand that I hold virtually nothing sacrosanct, or beyond circumspect examination/evaluation. I would not presume to define another's (uniquely personalized) purpose (chosen or not) in/of/for existence, or qualify the general merit of that purpose.
The rub comes when someone is enacting that ambiguous purpose to the (avoidable) detriment of others (or even themselves).
We do not let children drink from the bottle of bleach under the counter.
We do not permit habitual drunkards from yet again taking the wheel of an automobile.
We intercede on behalf of loved ones when they require medical attention, or seek rehabilitation from addictive and destructive behaviors.
We imprison and separate sociopaths and predators from the general population. And so on...

I don't care whether or not someone feels purposefully "compelled" to do anything that is prospectively or consequentially "wrong" (being harmful, detrimental, or lethal) as far as realizing my own ascribed purpose is concerned.

end of Part 1....

cardero · Apr 29, 2006

cardero writes: Do not be harsh or condescending towards this person, remember it is their purpose and not yours.

s2a replies: Perhaps my purpose is to alter their own, and their purpose is to facilitate mine? ;-)

cardero writes: A purpose unfulfilled does have the opportunity to be repeated in another lifetime.

s2a replies: From my understanding and perspective, this is the only shot we get. No "do-over's". As long as others care to indulge their wishful thinking - of spiritual afterlives, regeneration, "higher planes", or karmic merry-go-rounds of reincarnation- within and of themselves (and their like-minded adherents), and practice their beliefs peaceably - beyond any forced imposition/indoctrination upon others - then I can tolerate, and even lend due respect to those that eschew reason over faith.

cardero writes: A Purpose can be self-centered, shared or crossover into many lives.

s2a replies: Indeed. Agreed (aasuming you mean others that are alive).

cardero writes: A purpose can be specifically designed for the needs or wants of an individual or it can shared with some other individual. There are even purposes that produce a ripple effect that impress upon many people in many different ways.

s2a replies: If it were not so, our species would still be living in caves, tending the daily kill, and fearing the night.

cardero writes: There are not many examples of purpose that intrudes in other peoples lives unless it is invited, expected or desired.

s2a replies: Hmmm. Really? Most of human history records purpose-driven tyrants, despots, kings, and "holy men" that have "intruded" upon the lives of others that was most decidedly...unwelcome.

cardero writes: An individuals Purpose cannot be taught or given. You will not find any qualified earthly organization or institution authorized to teach or explain purpose.

s2a replies: Forgive me, but what are the "qualifications" that are unmet? Qualified or not, there are certainly many groups (even individuals!) that deem themselves not only supremely, but uniquely empowered, to not only "teach" the purpose of existence, but to "give" that "gift of truth" to everyone; despite lacking invitation, expectation, or desire for such a gift from anyone.

cardero writes: Purpose is oftentimes a personal expression. It usually has a significant meaning only to the person who chose it. The reason you are living a physical existence is to try to accomplish this plan or purpose. Rarely are the reasons and purpose for this existence already waiting for you when you get here nor are there other people waiting to be confronted to tell you what it means for your life. Indeed the best purposes are discovered and rationalized by the individual who experiences them.

And if that doesnt convince you, look at how much confusion I am contributing just trying to define and explain it.

s2a replies: Overall, the last paragraph summarizes a perspective in which I would generally concur. I may not accede to the entirety of your views, but neither am I confused. ;-)

cardero writes: A purpose can be changed at a moments notice.

s2a replies: OK. I'll buy that.

cardero writes: The most carefully intended purposes are established before you arrive to a physical existence. It is usually this incentive that convinces you to choose what physical life form you will become. Free will often takes precedence over the most carefully planned purposes. This same free will could be employed to keep you on the path of a carefully planned purpose.

s2a replies: Hmmm. Here's where you'll lose me. Sounds like some sort of concept of divinity to me. See my title? "Atheist/skeptic". I retain neither requisite faith, nor any reasoned conclusion that supernatural entities are existent, veritable, or real. Thus, any explanations predicated upon such a concept are perhaps interesting, but not compelling or persuasive in proposal or argument.

end of Part 2.....

cardero · Apr 29, 2006

cardero writes: Every living thing has a purpose.

s2a replies: Philosophically and pragmatically, I'd agree.

cardero writes: Sometimes there is a basic purpose that a living entity may express. One example may be plants that put oxygen into the air or animals that provide food for other living things. Again, it may not be a desirable purpose for most and one may not understand why an entity would choose such a purpose but it satisfies that entity that has chosen this existence.

s2a replies: Ya see? I don't accept the notion that a tree gets to choose to be a tree. Such a concept implies sentience on behalf of a tree (or some sentient pre-existent, embryonic stem cell-like "something" invoking a choice that consequentially somehow manifests itself ito a specialized and purposed existent "something").
Is there any empirical evidence that exists, or might be obtained, to even test such a concept...much less then subsequently conclude in the absence of estimable/derivative fact that such a concept is veritable and reasonably acceptable beyond a reasonable doubt? Or does that require...faith?

cardero writes: A purpose is always chosen to learn or teach a lesson or for soul growth or to balance karma or to appeal to a Higher BEing.

This statement is false.

s2a replies: I can confidently assert that I am purposed to both learn and teach, albeit to suit my own ends...not the desires, whims, or wishes of any alleged spirituality, force, or deity. Whether my position places me within your estimation as being right or wrong, I can not say.

cardero writes: Purpose is best viewed in hindsight.

s2a replies: I would offer that any measure in attainment of individualized purpose is best served by examination and introspection of personal experience.

cardero writes: The execution of Purpose could be equivalent to imagining a human figure, and with a set time, putting a pencil to paper and drawing a human figure without looking at the paper or lifting the pencil. The drawing can be fulfilled and looked at when the picture is done and you can see what you have drawn. Does the picture resemble the subject you have imagined to draw? Do you like the way the picture turned out? Does it matter what other people think of the picture you have drawn?
Sometimes purpose can be easily recognized by objectively looking around to see what you are doing now. Sometimes purpose can be recognized at the end of your life when you are reflecting back on your accumulated experiences. The best way to

s2a replies: I find your lent analogy, ummm, less than illuminating. Sorry. ;-)

When I become "detached from my physical existence", I will be dead. The dead don't think. The dead however, yet serve a purpose, although not necessarily of their own volition.

We tread upon the dead daily, and partake of their residual elements in the food we eat, the flora and fauna we see, and the air we breathe. In this mortal realm of existence, life would be impossible without death. There is no credible evidence of any kind to suggest that people (or birds, buffalo, or bacteria) spontaneously generate themselves from the ether. We are elementaly from what has died before us, and our elements post-death will allow life to continue on in it's myriad of shapes, forms, and "purpose".

I have no recollection of my non-existence before my birth, and I have every expectation of the same absence of sentience when I become non-existent (er, dead) once more (bear in mind, I'm not looking to hasten my departure anytime soon, but the clock's a tickin' ;-)).

Take heart. I still think it's cool that we are all but stardust, and one day billions of years from now, I may be a star once again. ;-)

Again, I thank you for your thoughtful and and earnest observations.

end of Part 3.....

MysticSang'ha · Apr 29, 2006

Cardero, you've provided a hard act to follow, and I might disappoint s2a here for not providing more lengthy answers to such thought-provoking questions.

Whenever I come across such questions on the meaning of life, or the purpose of our existence, I approach it in the same sense as a Zen koan - such as, "What is the sound of one hand clapping?"

I don't believe that contemplating such questions with merely the left hemisphere of the brain can ever satisfy........... I simply meditate on your questions s2a, and I'm happy. To me, the questions themselves are enough to inspire and fulfill. :flower:

Peace,
Mystic

d. · Apr 29, 2006

s2a said:
But then, the depths of your philosophical introspections may well humble my own shallow shoals.

nah, i wouldn't think so.

:disco:

Squirt · Apr 29, 2006

I exist that I might have joy and that I might fulfill the measure of my creation, which is to obtain eternal life in God's presence and become all He has given me the potential to become.

Ody · Apr 29, 2006

Its really a difficult topic for me really, due to problems in my life, i feel more existantialist than anything, reality seems absurd. My reason of life is deeply in question. One finds it hard to pour ones inner feelings onto the forums

cardero · Apr 29, 2006

Cardero writes: We may know someone who likes to put their hands in many baskets. They may not accomplish or master these experiences but their purpose may be to sample them.

S2a asks: OK. To what end? Any?

I believe it is for the experience. Someone who enjoys going to concerts and seeing many artists perform can be a very time consuming endeavor. They may not even come away with anything from the experience (except maybe a program or a T-shirt). To some people this would be considered a waste of time, money and energy. I am someone who has been accused of experiencing too much. You heard of the saying Jack of all trades, master of none. Do I have any regrets about not accomplishing some of my interests and talents or making a success of some of them? No, not really, sometimes I feel fortunate just for the opportunity or the experience. A purpose is not an experience that should be equated to power, success or glory.

Cardero writes: Some people may go many years without any specific purpose or a purpose that manifests later in their existence.

S2a asks: Indeed. Is this a good thing, a bad thing, or an inconsequential thing?

It depends on the individual. Sometimes an individual can feel edgy or restless or even worthless because they feel life has passed them by or that they do not come to any affirmation to their life. Their purpose may have not expressed itself to them yet.

Cardero writes: In life there are many things to experience and the choices of purpose can be as numerous as stars in the sky. A purpose does not necessarily have to be a life changing moment that hits you over the head. Some people have no purpose (that can be perceived), which in itself, is a purpose. Their earthly existence may just be the equivalent of an unplanned vacation or a canoeing venture on a river.

S2a writes: One might argue that vacations (unplanned or not) serve to promote relaxation/escape from daily cares/concerns, and that canoeing (or camping rafting, climbing, biking, whathaveyou) serves the same "purpose" (in and of itself). Of course, in this case, we are connoting a purpose upon engaging a chosen activity, which differs from any self-assignations of a personalized purpose.

One may feel a pang of hunger upon passing a McDonalds, and choose to step inside a buy a hamburger. The "purpose" served in this instance was in sating an unplanned or momentary urge, by means of circumstantial convenience. Besides aspects of personal taste in food, I find no ascribable or pertinent impact as it relates to an individual's chosen (or unchosen) "purpose (in existence)" - unless a hastening to one's end to thusly become worm food is one's assumed "purpose" in existence.

Or it might be an occasion of free will. For example I deserve a break today.
Or it might be a shared purpose. For example, the owners of McDonalds purpose is to get you to spend your money and you are hungry and the experience is shared.

Cardero writes: An individuals purpose is not subject to others scrutiny or judgment.

s2a writes: Hmmm. If one individual's purpose is to rise to power or wealth by unscrupulous, cruel, or illegal means - I know I'd like to hold that individual accountable for their actions.

Only if we were privy to that individuals original vision or purpose and if it serves a purpose for others. Sometimes things arent always what they appear to be. Is it the individuals original purpose to become powerful and corrupt? Sometimes a powerful persons intentions are honorable to begin with but through different circumstances (usually free will and the influence of others) their purpose seems to go astray. If their power leads to defeat, there may be a shared purpose the ripples out to others and resonates in history, probably in the form of some sort of understanding for generations to come. I will confess to you that it is much easier to judge and scrutinize a movie than it is a persons life.

s2a writes: Philosophically, that's a sentiment many might defend. Pragmatically, I would simply say, "That depends...". Is waste/squander (of food, effort, time or existence) a good (or "right") thing?

One might observe that in the infinite realm of the cosmos, no individual's existence (or chosen purpose therein) is of any meaningful, influential, or lasting consequence. But that's looking from the "outside-in", akin to peering at a single-celled microbe through the magnifying lens of a microscope. With such a perspective, one might readily conclude that the microbe serves an indifferent purpose of existence (at least to the observer), which also confers an amoral assessment of whether or not the microbe actually fulfills any purpose in it's existence. But in fact, the microbe does serve a purpose (whether it has chosen one for itself or not), regardless of whether or not an observer perceives/understands that microbial "purpose", or assigns an estimation of value, "success", or morality upon it's own minute purpose.
Microbes ingest decaying matter (amongst many other things). From our perspective, that's the microbe's "purpose". From the microbe's perspective, well, he's just doing what his limited genetic make-up and evolved function allow him to do. The microbe has no self-sense of purpose, yet we may observe it to be exercising it's evident purpose as "a good thing".

Choosing to incarnate into a specific animal with their natural built-in purpose is a valid experience. I can imagine a humans choices and plans may be a bit more complicated than most earthly animals but of course I am speaking from a human perspective.

s2a writes: As a skeptic, you'd probably understand that I hold virtually nothing sacrosanct, or beyond circumspect examination/evaluation. I would not presume to define another's (uniquely personalized) purpose (chosen or not) in/of/for existence, or qualify the general merit of that purpose.

And it is a healthy habit that I would sincerely encourage in everyone.

s2a writes: The rub comes when someone is enacting that ambiguous purpose to the (avoidable) detriment of others (or even themselves).
We do not let children drink from the bottle of bleach under the counter.
We do not permit habitual drunkards from yet again taking the wheel of an automobile.
We intercede on behalf of loved ones when they require medical attention, or seek rehabilitation from addictive and destructive behaviors.
We imprison and separate sociopaths and predators from the general population. And so on...
I don't care whether or not someone feels purposefully "compelled" to do anything that is prospectively or consequentially "wrong" (being harmful, detrimental, or lethal) as far as realizing my own ascribed purpose is concerned.

Again we must understand the individuals original purpose, we must possess the complete schematics of an individuals life before understanding why events happen. Most people do not possess the patience, interest or the possibilities of this type of understanding when seeing detrimental events unfolding. Some people are mostly concerned with their perspective, passing judgment and belonging to the majority who feel the way they do.

cardero · Apr 29, 2006

s2a writes: Perhaps my purpose is to alter their own, and their purpose is to facilitate mine? ;-)

People that people put in front of their lives to confirm or complete purpose is not uncommon. My whole life has been inspired by one individual after another.

s2a writes: From my understanding and perspective, this is the only shot we get. No "do-over's". As long as others care to indulge their wishful thinking - of spiritual afterlives, regeneration, "higher planes", or karmic merry-go-rounds of reincarnation- within and of themselves (and their like-minded adherents), and practice their beliefs peaceably - beyond any forced imposition/indoctrination upon others - then I can tolerate, and even lend due respect to those that eschew reason over faith.

Even though this is the understanding that I have been given (that you can do it over), I am with you all the way on this one. Recognize your purpose, get it done right the first time and get the hell out of Carson City! I do not know about you but I detest having to repeat myself. I may just be one of those people who realize that I didnt complete my original purpose in the afterlife and just say f*** it, whats next? Doctor, lawyer, microbe, okay lets try that.

Cardero writes: A Purpose can be self-centered, shared or crossover into many lives.

s2a writes: Indeed. Agreed (aasuming you mean others that are alive).

Yes I am talking about physical entity purpose, the purpose of other spiritual entities could fill the purpose of this discussion nicely but should be another topic.

Cardero writes: There are not many examples of purpose that intrudes in other peoples lives unless it is invited, expected or desired.

s2a writes: Hmmm. Really? Most of human history records purpose-driven tyrants, despots, kings, and "holy men" that have "intruded" upon the lives of others that was most decidedly...unwelcome.

Dont be so sure, even tyrants, despots, kings and holy men need active participants in order to expose or exploit or share purpose. This still falls into the realm of we just do not possess the whole picture. Again, I must remind you that just because someones purpose seems undesirable or incomprehensible does not void the experience. Also if our purposes are planned before we incarnate into a physical existence there is a certain realization of what to expect from your next life as well as what to expect from your death.

Cardero writes: An individuals Purpose cannot be taught or given. You will not find any qualified earthly organization or institution authorized to teach or explain purpose.

s2a writes: Forgive me, but what are the "qualifications" that are unmet? Qualified or not, there are certainly many groups (even individuals!) that deem themselves not only supremely, but uniquely empowered, to not only "teach" the purpose of existence, but to "give" that "gift of truth" to everyone; despite lacking invitation, expectation, or desire for such a gift from anyone.

But do they have the truth? Many people will explain that our individual purpose is to do GODs will. I do not believe that because I cannot see any visible strings attached to my appendages and GODs will would be better served in the spiritual realm with no need for a physical one. Many people will try to explain why we are here but it really is a reality only discernable to the individual experiencing purpose. Many individuals offer advice and even prophetically proclaim where your life is headed but that is all it is; a suggestion. It still requires your exclusive remembrance, will and effort.

Cardero writes: The most carefully intended purposes are established before you arrive to a physical existence. It is usually this incentive that convinces you to choose what physical life form you will become. Free will often takes precedence over the most carefully planned purposes. This same free will could be employed to keep you on the path of a carefully planned purpose.

s2A writes: Hmmm. Here's where you'll lose me. Sounds like some sort of concept of divinity to me. See my title? "Atheist/skeptic". I retain neither requisite faith, nor any reasoned conclusion that supernatural entities are existent, veritable, or real. Thus, any explanations predicated upon such a concept are perhaps interesting, but not compelling or persuasive in proposal or argument.

Keep in mind that you have complete control over the choices of your plan and purposes. It is not assigned to you (all natural-no divinity required). If it is a shared purpose, your lawyer calls my lawyer and draws up the appropriate agreement. This may be difficult for you to accept but it is also difficult to exclude spiritual references when discussing a physical purpose. Why do you meticulously plan purpose in another realm only to forget about when you arrive? If you knew the exact day and time when you were going to die, would you keep the appointment? Would you play a video game if the entire games contents were revealed to you in the demo screen before you hit the start button? Would you go see a movie at a theater where there was a mandatory policy for you to read the scripts before they started the movie? Whether you believe in GOD or not there is one thing you should know about Him. The last thing He wants to do is spend an eternity listening to billions of souls returning from a physical existence with complaints about a misspent life or a life that someone felt they were cheated from or the whining disappointment of purposes unfulfilled.

Cardero writes: Sometimes there is a basic purpose that a living entity may express. One example may be plants that put oxygen into the air or animals that provide food for other living things. Again, it may not be a desirable purpose for most and one may not understand why an entity would choose such a purpose but it satisfies that entity that has chosen this existence.
s2a writes: Ya see? I don't accept the notion that a tree gets to choose to be a tree.

Dont knock it until youve tried it (pun intended). I dont accept that a tree gets to choose to be a tree either but I am open to the possibility that a spiritual entity (that may have been a human or a tree in a past physical life) would choose the next physical life and purpose of a tree to incarnate into. People who are currently using human understanding may not understand the appeal of becoming a tree. I dont believe we encourage human (or tree) understanding in the afterlife.

s2a writes: Such a concept implies sentience on behalf of a tree (or some sentient pre-existent, embryonic stem cell-like "something" invoking a choice that consequentially somehow manifests itself ito a specialized and purposed existent "something").

Is there any empirical evidence that exists, or might be obtained, to even test such a concept...much less then subsequently conclude in the absence of estimable/derivative fact that such a concept is veritable and reasonably acceptable beyond a reasonable doubt?

Yes, the dreaming. It is not just background "noise" while you are sleeping anymore. Dreaming is a fantastic way to refresh, relocate and reassemble your purpose. It is a reliable way (everyone dreams) to compare your current position, compare it to your past and get glimpses into future purpose. Since purpose is personal I believe the deciphering of this information must be also. There are some people who utilize other methods but I find the dreaming laboratory fairly easy to find.

s2a writes: Or does that require...faith?

Even if it did require faith, I wouldnt recommend anyone to employ it even for this situation. This is just a belief as it stands with me. What gives me reason to believe this? One thing that I observed, especially from humans (as a human) is that most people like to plan (to some degree) an important venture in order to obtain the maximum objective from that experience. This does nothing to prove a pre-spiritual existence or an after-life but it certainly stands to reason that our strongest efforts come from the best laid plans (ask any experienced military strategist). Since we have many years to adjust and adapt to this physical existence it stands to reason that these plans would have to be mapped out at some other level of impartial awareness or evolved understanding.

cardero · Apr 29, 2006

cardero writes: Purpose is best viewed in hindsight.

s2a writes: I would offer that any measure in attainment of individualized purpose is best served by examination and introspection of personal experience.

Sometimes purpose is hard to discern up close. Pointillist painter George Seurat gave us a great example that can be compared for viewing life or examining purpose with his painting Sunday Afternoon on the Island of la Grande Jatte. If you look close at the painting you will see that it is made up of tiny little dots. If you view a portion of the dots up close, its hard to discern what the artist is going for or that they make up part of a bigger picture (this is usually how some people arrive at their conclusions or opinions) but the further you step away from the painting the better you can appreciate the whole image and the objective or purpose the artist was trying to achieve and share.

Cardero writes: The execution of Purpose could be equivalent to imagining a human figure, and with a set time, putting a pencil to paper and drawing a human figure without looking at the paper or lifting the pencil. The drawing can be fulfilled and looked at when the picture is done and you can see what you have drawn. Does the picture resemble the subject you have imagined to draw? Do you like the way the picture turned out? Does it matter what other people think of the picture you have drawn?
Sometimes purpose can be easily recognized by objectively looking around to see what you are doing now. Sometimes purpose can be recognized at the end of your life when you are reflecting back on your accumulated experiences. The best way to view your earthly purpose is when you are completely detached from the physical existence.

S2a writes: I find your lent analogy, ummm, less than illuminating. Sorry. ;-)

When I become "detached from my physical existence", I will be dead. The dead don't think. The dead however, yet serve a purpose, although not necessarily of their own volition.

From your definitive description, it sounds like you have been through this experience before.

s2A writes: There is no credible evidence of any kind to suggest that people (or birds, buffalo, or bacteria) spontaneously generate themselves from the ether. We are elementaly from what has died before us, and our elements post-death will allow life to continue on in it's myriad of shapes, forms, and "purpose".

If you dont mind me asking, can you produce compelling evidence of the non-existence of the soul?

s2a writes: I have no recollection of my non-existence before my birth, and I have every expectation of the same absence of sentience when I become non-existent (er, dead) once more (bear in mind, I'm not looking to hasten my departure anytime soon, but the clock's a tickin' ;-)).

It might not be necessary to your purpose in this lifetime to recall images or recollections or purposes of past existences nor do I think this knowledge is imperative to this existence. The point I was trying to express with the above illustration is that life seems to be a contour drawing with two eyes looking forward, and a pencil that is constantly moving with two sides of the mind trying to make sense of everything. We cannot derail the pencil or take a break from this life to see how we are doing and then come back to continue the same drawing, so in some sense it would be in our best practice (experience) to continue drawing the picture and as we get better at our talent (wisdom), start discerning the life that we meant to draw. One thing I was assured with this understanding of purpose is that no one will be left in the dark concerning their purpose. Using the illustration concerning the picture everyone will be allowed to see and study the final diagram at some moment. If not this existence than possibly the existence that comes after it.

s2a writes: Take heart. I still think it's cool that we are all but stardust, and one day billions of years from now, I may be a star once again. ;-)

Again, I thank you for your thoughtful and and earnest observations.

I thank you again for posting the topic. It is a fascinating subject that deserves insightful consideration.

Here is the test to find whether your mission on earth is finished. If you're alive, it isn't.-- Richard Bach

s2a · May 1, 2006

Whew.

Well, OK then.

I did not fully anticipate that cardero would post our prior PM exchange (with his subsequent thoughtful rebuttal). Not that there's anything wrong with that (in fact, I suggested that his initial reply/PM was worthy of inclusion within this thread)...I have shared with all PM correspondents that there is nothing I would say in PM that I wouldn't say within the community-at-large (certain colorful - and prospectively REF censorable - metaphors excluded).

Estimable and robust replies are due, and considerably worthy of the earnestly lent commentary/opinion to the topic at hand. I must defer to my own priorities of the moment, but I promise to set both consideration and conscience in commodious concupiscent commentary.

;-)

cardero · May 1, 2006

S2a writes: Whew.

Well, OK then.

I did not fully anticipate that cardero would post our prior PM exchange (with his subsequent thoughtful rebuttal).

Either did I.

S2a writes: Not that there's anything wrong with that (in fact, I suggested that his initial reply/PM was worthy of inclusion within this thread)...I have shared with all PM correspondents that there is nothing I would say in PM that I wouldn't say within the community-at-large (certain colorful - and prospectively REF censorable - metaphors excluded).

Estimable and robust replies are due, and considerably worthy of the earnestly lent commentary/opinion to the topic at hand. I must defer to my own priorities of the moment, but I promise to set both consideration and conscience in commodious concupiscent commentary.

Again I must apologize for the inclusion of GOD and the spiritual realm, knowing your stance on both of these subjects I was thinking that I could avoid these issues and still deliver the impression of how important our decisions are/were when deciding on which purpose to achieve and in which form to perform it in.
Now if you will excuse me there is a certain thread entitled “Controlling The RF Addiction” that I have been purposefully looking forward to read. Your responses have been charitable and I look forward to reading future posts from you.

michel · May 1, 2006

O.K s2a, you crack this one then (of course a quote by René Descartes ):-
'Je pense, donc je suis ';

could not that be reversed to read "je suis parce que je pense "? (as an answer to your question?)

mr.guy · May 1, 2006

...but I promise to set both consideration and conscience in commodious concupiscent commentary.

Now you've revealed yourself. It's a well known fact that the devil is decidedly dedicated and devourous of alliteration.

mr.guy · May 1, 2006

michel said:
'Je pense, donc je suis ';

I think the most contemporary update to this tidbit was best expressed by the bah'ai funk machine Project 9:

"I think therefore i am, but what am I?"

NeilF · May 1, 2006

This is only a hard question if it is asked to a person who does not believe in God, has not accepted His Son, Jesus Christ, as his Lord and Savior, and has not invited God's Holy Spirit to dwell within him. Once this happens, and it only takes a short prayer, by the way, the purpose becomes quite clear, and more obvious as time goes on. My purpose is to figure out what God has put me here for, and do everything possible to carry out God's plan for my life. Only by doing this can any human being be truly fulfilled. Anything less is going to leave me at least partially empty. We all have a purpose for being here, and God will reveal His plan for you if you ask.

mr.guy · May 2, 2006

neilf said:
My purpose is to figure out what God has put me here for...

I know that God put me here to get the RF high score on "Asteroids".

s2a · May 7, 2006

Hello cardero,

When you said:
We may know someone who likes to put their hands in many baskets. They may not accomplish or master these experiences but their purpose may be to sample them.

I inquired:
OK. To what end? Any?

You replied:

I believe it is for the experience. Someone who enjoys going to concerts and seeing many artists perform can be a very time consuming endeavor. They may not even come away with anything from the experience (except maybe a program or a T-shirt). To some people this would be considered a waste of time, money and energy.

I suppose it depends on the artist in question. ;-)

I am someone who has been accused of experiencing too much.

Hmmm. That's an odd "accusation". Is this somewhat similar to, "You never get anything accomplished"?

You heard of the saying Jack of all trades, master of none. Do I have any regrets about not accomplishing some of my interests and talents or making a success of some of them? No, not really, sometimes I feel fortunate just for the opportunity or the experience. A purpose is not an experience that should be equated to power, success or glory.

In this we agree completely. But I still submit that one may squander the opportunities a mortal existence presents, whether those particular measures (as described above) are employed or not.

You wrote:
Some people may go many years without any specific purpose or a purpose that manifests later in their existence.

I asked:
Indeed. Is this a good thing, a bad thing, or an inconsequential thing?

You replied:

It depends on the individual. Sometimes an individual can feel edgy or restless or even worthless because they feel life has passed them by or that they do not come to any affirmation to their life. Their purpose may have not expressed itself to them yet.

Hmmm.
Hmmmmmmmm.

"Their purpose may have not expressed itself to them yet."

Ya see? There you go with that implication of a resident external sentience within "purpose". I see no evidence of such a "thing".

You said:
In life there are many things to experience and the choices of purpose can be as numerous as stars in the sky. A purpose does not necessarily have to be a life changing moment that hits you over the head. Some people have no purpose (that can be perceived), which in itself, is a purpose. Their earthly existence may just be the equivalent of an unplanned vacation or a canoeing venture on a river.

I then replied:
One might argue that vacations (unplanned or not) serve to promote relaxation/escape from daily cares/concerns, and that canoeing (or camping rafting, climbing, biking, whathaveyou) serves the same "purpose" (in and of itself). Of course, in this case, we are connoting a purpose upon engaging a chosen activity, which differs from any self-assignations of a personalized purpose.

One may feel a pang of hunger upon passing a McDonalds, and choose to step inside a buy a hamburger. The "purpose" served in this instance was in sating an unplanned or momentary urge, by means of circumstantial convenience. Besides aspects of personal taste in food, I find no ascribable or pertinent impact as it relates to an individual's chosen (or unchosen) "purpose (in existence)" - unless a hastening to one's end to thusly become worm food is one's assumed "purpose" in existence.

To which, you answered:

Or it might be an occasion of free will. For example I deserve a break today.

I'll reiterate when I said:
"...in this case, we are connoting a purpose upon engaging a chosen activity, which differs from any self-assignations of a personalized purpose.

Or it might be a shared purpose. For example, the owners of McDonalds purpose is to get you to spend your money and you are hungry and the experience is shared.

Again...to what end? When I choose to eat at McDonald's, it's certainly an example of my free choice/will (and available monetary resources), but it's not an expression of either my reason and/or purpose in/of/for existence.

It's not the "what" that is in question...it's the "why?".

Now, I'll grant that the "why" can sometimes lead to a virtually endless progression of follow-up inquiries - for example, an exchange between Andy and Betty ensues:
B: "What are you studying there?"
A: "It's a course guide to teaching elementary school science."
B: "So, you want to be a teacher then. Why?"
A: "I like kids, and I want to be a part of helping expand their little minds."
B: "Why do you want to do that?"
A: "Because I think it's important."
B: "Why do you think it's important?"
A: "Don't you think it's important?"
B: "Yes...but I don't want to be a teacher.
The question remains: Why do you think that it's important for you to be a teacher, and expand the minds of kids? You've answered why you think it's important to be a teacher, but not why being a teacher is of any value or consequence of/for/to yourself."

And herein lies the crux of question itself; the answer of which many don't know, won't say, or can't define...without ascribing one of two motivations behind an individual's reason and/or purpose in existence.

Either an individual is motivated to serve and satisfy their own self-interests; or serving the interests of another person, country, cause, faith-based belief, or some ubiquitous "thing". Some folks bear guilt (by unfortuante or inopportune association) in asserting the former; and many others are reticent in ascribing the latter.

"Human nature" says: "Nobody tells me what to do".

But for many, the appearance of selfishly indulging oneself; to put one's own reasons and purpose in/of/for existence above everybody/anybody else's, seems, well...unseemly. It's much more palatable (and socially acceptable) to express one's own reason and purpose as ultimately serving some better, higher purposed goal over personal self-interests.

It is this conundrum of choice in self-expression, self-definition, and self-assigned rationale; in confident assessment and declaration of a realized and actualized - both reasoned and purposed - existence, that may manifest the feelings of waywardness, hopelessness, loneliness, and self-doubt...and therefore leads many to seek some definitive answer or "direction" from anyone/anything else that appears to be resolute, immutable, and "planned"...with the associate promises/allusions/prophecies of some "ultimate" consequence for their (either self-chosen or "assigned") existence.

You said:
An individuals purpose is not subject to others scrutiny or judgment.

I replied:
Hmmm. If one individual's purpose is to rise to power or wealth by unscrupulous, cruel, or illegal means - I know I'd like to hold that individual accountable for their actions.

You then said:

Only if we were privy to that individuals original vision or purpose and if it serves a purpose for others.

Really? Must one purpose ultimately serve another? Why?

Sometimes things arent always what they appear to be.

No kidding. ;-)

Therefore, things are sometimes exactly as they appear.

Is it the individuals original purpose to become powerful and corrupt?

"Original purpose"? Wherefrom comes "original purpose"? What source?

Sometimes a powerful persons intentions are honorable to begin with but through different circumstances (usually free will and the influence of others) their purpose seems to go astray. If their power leads to defeat, there may be a shared purpose the ripples out to others and resonates in history, probably in the form of some sort of understanding for generations to come. I will confess to you that it is much easier to judge and scrutinize a movie than it is a persons life.

What you describe is cause and effect...the consequences of choice. When you use the term "honorable", it implies that an individual's own rationalized existence has some personal measure/estimation of "good" vs. "bad" (which may be subject to external estimations), and that all individuals should "know" the difference. If that individual "knows", but doesn't care, does it "matter"? If so, in what way? I'm not talking about cause/effect and consequence of choice (upon others) here...I'm asking how that particularly individualized insouciance affects their own reason and purpose in existence.

Choosing to incarnate into a specific animal with their natural built-in purpose is a valid experience. I can imagine a humans choices and plans may be a bit more complicated than most earthly animals but of course I am speaking from a human perspective.

Indeed, and yours also from a distinctly human and personal bias. Is a human life ultimately more important or consequential than a mayfly's, within the billions of years of time-space, amidst the trillions of stars encompassing the cosmos? If so, how so?

s2a · May 7, 2006

I said:
I don't care whether or not someone feels purposefully "compelled" to do anything that is prospectively or consequentially "wrong" (being harmful, detrimental, or lethal) as far as realizing my own ascribed purpose is concerned.

You offered:

Again we must understand the individuals original purpose, we must possess the complete schematics of an individuals life before understanding why events happen.

Why? How do you obtain such understanding? What reference source do you consult? What purpose does a stillborn child in the Sudan serve? How are we to absorb and process the "schematics" of the (purposed?) 100,000+ people killed by a tsunami? Is purpose to be no more than service to a meaningless statistic? C'mon...

Most people do not possess the patience, interest or the possibilities of this type of understanding when seeing detrimental events unfolding. Some people are mostly concerned with their perspective, passing judgment and belonging to the majority who feel the way they do.

I confess that I am determinedly concerned with my own existence within virtually any context. Is there some personal consequence that I must be called to account for thusly?

I said::
Perhaps my purpose is to alter their own, and their purpose is to facilitate mine? ;-)

You replied:

People that people put in front of their lives to confirm or complete purpose is not uncommon. My whole life has been inspired by one individual after another.

Mine as well. So what? Does it "matter"?

I said::
From my understanding and perspective, this is the only shot we get. No "do-over's". As long as others care to indulge their wishful thinking - of spiritual afterlives, regeneration, "higher planes", or karmic merry-go-rounds of reincarnation- within and of themselves (and their like-minded adherents), and practice their beliefs peaceably - beyond any forced imposition/indoctrination upon others - then I can tolerate, and even lend due respect to those that eschew reason over faith.

You offered:

Even though this is the understanding that I have been given (that you can do it over)...

Interesting. By what, from whom, or from which source were you gifted this "understanding"?

"...I am with you all the way on this one. Recognize your purpose, get it done right the first time and get the hell out of Carson City! I do not know about you but I detest having to repeat myself. I may just be one of those people who realize that I didnt complete my original purpose in the afterlife and just say f*** it, whats next? Doctor, lawyer, microbe, okay lets try that.

What afterlife? I certainly have not stipulated any "afterlife" to be veritably existent, or consequentially assured. What is this "afterlife" you assert/assume, and can I get a pamphlet or travel brochure with more details as to what it offers/entails? [Psst. I like pictures.]

You said::
A Purpose can be self-centered, shared or crossover into many lives.

I replied:
Indeed. Agreed (aasuming you mean others that are alive).

You then said:

Yes I am talking about physical entity purpose, the purpose of other spiritual entities could fill the purpose of this discussion nicely but should be another topic.

Spiritual entities? Like what? I'm both a skeptic and an atheist. I retain neither faith nor belief in supernaturalistic, "spiritual entities". What compelling evidence can you provide to assuage my conclusive doubts as to the existence of "spiritual entities"?

You offered:
There are not many examples of purpose that intrudes in other peoples lives unless it is invited, expected or desired.

I replied:
Hmmm. Really? Most of human history records purpose-driven tyrants, despots, kings, and "holy men" that have "intruded" upon the lives of others that was most decidedly...unwelcome.

You rebutted:

Dont be so sure, even tyrants, despots, kings and holy men need active participants in order to expose or exploit or share purpose.

This is not in dispute. In fact, it is supportive of my inference.

This still falls into the realm of we just do not possess the whole picture.

OK. In what current realm might we expect to readily observe "the whole picture"?

Again, I must remind you that just because someones purpose seems undesirable or incomprehensible does not void the experience.

Agreed.

Also if our purposes are planned before we incarnate into a physical existence there is a certain realization of what to expect from your next life as well as what to expect from your death.

That's a BIG set of "IF's"; of which I would remind you, your provision of any compelling or empirical evidence in support of such assumptions is sorely lacking...;-)

You said:
An individuals Purpose cannot be taught or given. You will not find any qualified earthly organization or institution authorized to teach or explain purpose.

I replied:
Forgive me, but what are the "qualifications" that are unmet? Qualified or not, there are certainly many groups (even individuals!) that deem themselves not only supremely, but uniquely empowered, to not only "teach" the purpose of existence, but to "give" that "gift of truth" to everyone; despite lacking invitation, expectation, or desire for such a gift from anyone.

You countered:

But do they have the truth?

Do you? Do share...

Many people will explain that our individual purpose is to do GODs will. I do not believe that because I cannot see any visible strings attached to my appendages and GODs will would be better served in the spiritual realm with no need for a physical one.

Indeed. Belief in invisible strings, attached to an invisible deity, seems absurd enough.

WHAT spiritual realm? WHERE is it? WHAT is it? Can it be measured, tested, mapped, photographed, visited and/or subsequently accounted in some handy travel guide? Does it even have a name?

Many people will try to explain why we are here but it really is a reality only discernable to the individual experiencing purpose. Many individuals offer advice and even prophetically proclaim where your life is headed but that is all it is; a suggestion. It still requires your exclusive remembrance, will and effort.

So, you do understand a skeptical atheist's perspective. At least, until you start with suggestions of some "spiritual realm"...

When you said:
The most carefully intended purposes are established before you arrive to a physical existence. It is usually this incentive that convinces you to choose what physical life form you will become. Free will often takes precedence over the most carefully planned purposes. This same free will could be employed to keep you on the path of a carefully planned purpose.

I offered:
Hmmm. Here's where you'll lose me. Sounds like some sort of concept of divinity (or supernatural "force") to me. Note my title? "Atheist/skeptic". I retain neither requisite faith, nor any reasoned conclusion that supernatural entities are existent, veritable, or real. Thus, any explanations predicated upon such a concept are perhaps interesting, but not compelling or persuasive in proposal or argument.

Your rebuttal:

Keep in mind that you have complete control over the choices of your plan and purposes. It is not assigned to you (all natural-no divinity required).

I know. ;-)

If it is a shared purpose, your lawyer calls my lawyer and draws up the appropriate agreement.

Just whom does your "lawyer" represent? What if I refuse to settle/accede to such an "agreement"? What then?

So...just what is your reason and purpose for existence?

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