1st John was written by gospel writer John. Gospel writer John also wrote Revelation.
If 1st John and Revelation are Not acceptable, then what makes the gospel of John of higher value since they all have the same writer ?
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Is the Kingdom of God earthly or heavenly?
- Thread starter Pegg
- Start date
1st John was written by gospel writer John. Gospel writer John also wrote Revelation.
If 1st John and Revelation are Not acceptable, then what makes the gospel of John of higher value since they all have the same writer ?
A piecemeal of follow up on post 198:
Does 2 Corinthians 5: 6-8 prove that the elect of God go to heaven immediately upon their death to be with Jesus?
2 Corinthians 5: 6-8 “Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: (For we walk by faith, not by sightWe are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.”
No, for at the time Paul wrote this he believed that to die was to sleep in the Lord, awaiting a later time of resurrection: 1 Thessalonians 4: 13-18
There at 2 Corinthians 5: 6-8, Paul obviously only means that once he or anyone of them were absent from the body the contest was over for them for they then would then wait asleep in the Lord in the hope of that resurrection: 2 Corinthians 5: 9-10 “Wherefore we labor, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.”
Paul's point is the same here in the following two texts:
1 Corinthians 9: 24 “Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receives the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.”
Hebrews 12: 1-3 “Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God. For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds.”
Thus: 2 Corinthians 5: 11-15 “Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences. For we commend not ourselves again unto you, but give you occasion to glory on our behalf, that ye may have somewhat to answer them which glory in appearance, and not in heart. For whether we be beside ourselves, it is to God: or whether we be sober, it is for your cause. For the love of Christ constrains us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.”
So, No, 2 Corinthians 5: 6-8 does not prove that the elect of God go to heaven immediately upon their death to be with Jesus.
However, don't we need to consider the time frame? _______ Please notice the dead in Christ rise first - 1st Thess 4:16.
They are the ones who have that first or earlier heavenly resurrection - Rev. 20:6 - before the majority of mankind.
That heavenly resurrection would be for our day starting before the ' time of separation ' happens on earth - Matthew 25 vs 31,32.
So, until our time period - Rev. 1:10 - those saints or holy ones - Daniel 7:18 - did also sleep in dust. Now, those called to heaven No longer need to spend time sleeping in death. However, people Daniel and David ( Acts 2:34 ) will still continue to sleep in dust until the start of Jesus' 1000-year governmental rulersip over earth begins. Sleep in death because Daniel and David died before Jesus died and they will have a later healthy physical resurrection back to healthy life on a beautiful paradisaical earth.
Mountain_Climber
Active Member
URAVIP2ME said:
“the dead in Christ rise first - 1st Thess 4:16”
1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words. (KJV)
That sounds to me that they will rise and be standing there right with those who are yet alive, and then those who had remained alive, “ shall be caught up together with them in the clouds ...” KJV
Note that it does not say, “caught up to gather with them.” It says, “caught up together”, as all at the same time.
Let's see how the NWT words that:
16 “because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first.
17 Afterward we the living who are surviving will, together with them, be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we will always be with the Lord.” NWT 2013 revision (Not changed any from the 1984 revision.)
It seems even more clear, there, that this is what the Jehovah's Witnesses believe, in that they set that phrase off by commas.
Let's look at the Greek: What we find is that the word translated as, “rise”, in verse 16, “anastesontai”, literally means, “will stand up”.
As to the phrase, “together with them”, in verse 17, we find something really enlightening, It literally reads, “ama” (at the same time), “sun” (together with), “autois” (them).
17 “thereupon we the living the[ones] being left around at the same time together with them we will be snatched in clouds into meeting of the Lord into air and thus always together with Lord we shall be.”
Where else do we find this idea of being snatched into clouds?
Things being set into a cloud represent a covenant relationship: Genesis 9:13 “I do set my bow in the cloud, and it shall be for a token of a covenant between me and the earth.”
Do the 144,000 elect resemble this bow in how they have been beautified? Genesis 9:16 “And the bow shall be in the cloud; and I will look upon it, that I may remember the everlasting covenant between God and every living creature of all flesh that is upon the earth.”
His anointed are gathered as clouds to shed life giving rain upon the earth: Psalms 147:8 “Who covereth the heaven with clouds, who prepareth rain for the earth, who maketh grass to grow upon the mountains.”
Proverbs 16:15 “In the light of the king's countenance is life; and his favour is as a cloud of the latter rain.”
He cuts the life giving words of the anointed off from those he has condemned: Isaiah 5:6 “And I will lay it waste: it shall not be pruned, nor digged; but there shall come up briers and thorns: I will also command the clouds that they rain no rain upon it.”
The haughty king of Babylon thought himself to have a higher station than God's anointed clouds, even equal to God himself: Isaiah 14:14 “I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.”
This is all a part of how: Matthew 24:30 “And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.”
Peter referenced self appointed clouds: 2 Peter 2:17 “These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever.”
Jesus will be seen by means of these clouds: Revelation 1:7 “Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.”
The enemies of the anointed will see their exaltation and beat themselves in grief over it: Revelation 11:12 “And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.”
The word in the mouth of Christ and his anointed are as sickles: Revelation 14:16 “And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.”
Muffled
Jesus in me
I believe that is a bit of a simplification. There are two concepts of death. One is that the physical body dies. The other is that the soul departs from the whole ness that it had in the beginning. I have everlasting life (I am whole) but my body may well die.
Muffled
Jesus in me
Oneness is the name for Heaven; yet dwells inside each other us.
I believe you are in error because Heaven is a vast empty place and can't be contained in a person.
Heaven is better known as Oneness from my own NDE.... Oneness exists within all of us.... Heaven or the kingdom of God is within all of us.
Heaven isn't in a single person, isn't empty, isn't only a place....Plus try to comprehend what Yeshua said, and how the term 'Oneness' makes it even easier to understand.
OneThatGotAway
Servant of Yahweh God Almighty
I believe that the Kingdom mentioned in the prayer to Yahweh will take place on earth.
Because Yahshuo the Son of God said "Thy kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven."
The Kingdom of Yahweh is already established in heaven; however she is not established on earth as of yet.
That is why we pray that his Kingdom come to earth, so that the entire world can benefit from the blessings that is currently being enjoyed in Heaven.
Many Christian theologians got the earthly kingdom idea from Holy Scriptures such as:
"Of the increase of [his] government and peace [there shall be] no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of YAHWEH of hosts will perform this." (Isaiah 9:7)
"Then the moon shall be confounded, and the sun ashamed, when YAHWEH of hosts shall reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, and before his ancients gloriously." (Isaiah 24:22)
"And I will make her that halted a remnant, and her that was cast far off a strong nation: and YAHWEH shall reign over them in mount Zion from henceforth, even for ever." -- Micah 4:7
Therefore the Kingdom of Yahweh reign will extend from heaven right down on earth whose location will be in Mount Zion, in particular the holy city of Yerushalim (Jerusalem) of what the world today calls Palestine in the Middle East. In other words, the Kingdom of Yahweh will be both in heaven and on earth in the end.
Finally, although we cannot see the spirits; however, in the end, we will see the glory of Yahweh in a pillar of cloud by day and a pillar of fire by night in the Holy Temple. We will also see the Son of God ruling on earth in the city of Yerushalim. One of the many rewards of true believers is that they will enjoy seeing and hearing Yahweh's glory and the Lord Yahshuo, the Son of God in all of their majesties at the end times.
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Pegg
Jehovah our God is One
if you really believe that you existed before you were born into this world, please tell us about your life as an eternal spirit. What is it like to live in the heavenly realm?
Pegg
Jehovah our God is One
Do you think Jesus would submit to God if Jesus was God himself?
Yes.
God the Father gave everything (that's us) to God the Son.
God the Son willingly submitted to God the Father, placing everything that the Father had given him, back at the feet of the Father.
God the Father responds by giving the Son a name that is above all other names.
Submission is an act of love, not an admission of inferiority.
Until we comprehend that, Christ-like servant-hood towards fellow believers remains elusive ...
Matthew 23:11 The greatest among you will be your servant. 12 For those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.
psychoslice
Veteran Member
I believe the kingdom is within, no where else.
Pegg
Jehovah our God is One
one dictionary defines 'submission' as "the action of accepting or yielding to a superior force or to the will or authority of another person."
For Christ to submit to God, he must recognize the superior nature of God. The early disciples described the submission of Christ :
1 Corinthians 15:24 Next, the end, when he hands over the Kingdom to his God and Father, when he has brought to nothing all government and all authority and power.+ 25 For he must rule as king until God has put all enemies under his feet.+ ... 28 But when all things will have been subjected to him, then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him,+ that God may be all things to everyone.
I hope you do not apply that definition to the command for wives to submit to their husbands.
That may be one dictionary definition, but I suspect that it is not God's definition.
Good luck with making Matthew 23:11 work for you.
Mountain_Climber
Active Member
Sounds like you are describing a narcissistic God that loves himself.
That is one possibility.
Another possibility is a Triune being who knows what He is talking about when he says "It is not good for man to be alone, let Us make a companion for him."
Which you choose to believe is up to you, but there is ample scriptural support for each of my claims:
1. The Father placed everything under the Son.
2. The Son submits to the Father.
3. The Father elevates the Son to a position of honor.
You can reject my claims of motivation if you wish, but the basic facts are not mine.
(To the OP, sorry for the bunny trail.)
Mountain_Climber
Active Member
That I can agree with.
I can't agree that makes Jesus God, anymore than the president's son is our president.
I think the difference is whether we see "God" as a name or as a title of supremacy.
I see it as a title of supremacy.
I have viewed the arguments by those who claim "God" is his name but I know that the Hebrew word for name also can mean, "reputation".
A title of honor is a reputation, and so comes the confusion. The Father's name is YHVH, and His unchallengeable title above all others is, "God".
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