Free will

Opethian said:

Yes, and these choices can theoretically be predicted, so they aren't really choices.



No, because the way I react right now, think right now, and what I do right now, can be theoretically predicted. There is no junction in the road, there is only a single road that stretches on.



I will make a choice, but whether it be positive or negative, is not based on free will. It is based on input, processing, and output.

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Ushta Opethian

That choice can be predicted does:tsk: not affect your ability to freely choose it. Even if we could predict some one else's choices with a 100 % accuracy , it will be still be a free choice to that person. Obviously no one knows 100% what one will choose for himself a priori so , there is little relation between predicting and outcome and whether or not the choice was free.

Now if it can be proven that your choice are predestined , then you would have a point.:jiggy:

As to your choices being based on inputs pricessing and outputs , Yes so? people ought to choose based on information processing and pondering on that information and acting on it The point of free will is that you decide what to choose ; after all inputing processing and outputing, is not decided for you these are acts you engage in freely!:bow:

Ushta te
Ashai

Every time I see this title I think it's about a boy saving a killer whale...

^^Free Willy!!! lmao

That choice can be predicted does:tsk: not affect your ability to freely choose it. Even if we could predict some one else's choices with a 100 % accuracy , it will be still be a free choice to that person. Obviously no one knows 100% what one will choose for himself a priori so , there is little relation between predicting and outcome and whether or not the choice was free.

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Yes it does, because free will implies that under the same conditions and with the same body structure, you could still take a different choice than the predicted one. This does not happen. If you can predict something, it means that it is not a free choice to that person, it means that the person is merely a processing medium for input to flow through, creating the predicted output. Obviously no one can predict 100% sure what someone will do, but this is only because it is so complicated to set up an equation for something like this.

Now if it can be proven that your choice are predestined , then you would have a point.:jiggy:

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It's much too complicated to prove it, so I can't. I can only come to this conclusion by the knowledge that I have and by analyzing my thought process.I also never claimed that I could prove it. But you probably knew that.

As to your choices being based on inputs pricessing and outputs , Yes so? people ought to choose based on information processing and pondering on that information and acting on it The point of free will is that you decide what to choose ; after all inputing processing and outputing, is not decided for you these are acts you engage in freely!:bow:

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Yes but choosing is merely a biochemical process going on through your body. It's not like some kind of soul takes the decision. It's something that could be theoretically calculated, so it's not a free choice. After the inputting and processing, the output is decided by my body, which is governed by the laws of physics. I think the main problem in your reasoning is that you perceive "yourself" who takes the choices, as something different than your body.

Opethian said:

^^Free Willy!!! lmao



Yes it does, because free will implies that under the same conditions and with the same body structure, you could still take a different choice than the predicted one. This does not happen. If you can predict something, it means that it is not a free choice to that person, it means that the person is merely a processing medium for input to flow through, creating the predicted output. Obviously no one can predict 100% sure what someone will do, but this is only because it is so complicated to set up an equation for something like this.



It's much too complicated to prove it, so I can't. I can only come to this conclusion by the knowledge that I have and by analyzing my thought process.I also never claimed that I could prove it. But you probably knew that.



Yes but choosing is merely a biochemical process going on through your body. It's not like some kind of soul takes the decision. It's something that could be theoretically calculated, so it's not a free choice. After the inputting and processing, the output is decided by my body, which is governed by the laws of physics. I think the main problem in your reasoning is that you perceive "yourself" who takes the choices, as something different than your body.

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I still disagree with your main idea here; that we are so 'pre-programmed' that our choice is 99% predictable (which, correct me if I am wrong is what I think you are trying to make).

My genetic make up is partly from my Mother and from My father (with multi-generational 'jumps' to prior ancestors).

So, basically, whilst I am happy to admit that out likelyhood of predictability is virtually 'set in stone', I still believe that choice is what makes us 'above' (don't like that term in this context, but it will have to do) animals.

Science has now come to the conclusion that much of our character is formulated in the womb. Very little of it is affected by 'nurture'. And yet, if that was so, I would be an engineer today (most likely an electronic one).

Events that happened in my life took me off the 'predictability road'. A nervous breakdown at an early age and a dread of exams put paid to the engineer.

I would not be married to my wife now had my parents not done all that they could to separate a girl with whom I was very much in love until my mid twenties. It was 'chance' that led me to meet the woman who was to become my wife.

Another case in point. I had worked for 24 odd years through a career that was slowly killing me (I did it for the protected pension, and, perhaps because I would have had no qualifications for any other work had I left). Had it not been for the fact that I suffered the growth of cataracts (which made me blind in one eye for nigh on a year), I would never had had that final push to go to my doc and say "Enough is enough", which I did.

What is more, the doc I had at the time was very near retirement; he fed me pilss and kept me going; it was only when he left and a new young doctor took his place that talk about retirement on medical grounds came into the conversation. Had it not been for him, I might well have ended up sacked, made redundant (far more likely sacked, much cheaper for the employers). You say there is no choice?

michel said:

You say there is no choice?

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That was his point I think.

Opethian, I think there is a little overthinking here. Take a person to a piano who has never played and tell him/her to play any one note. You are saying their choice is predictable?

Opethian, I think there is a little overthinking here. Take a person to a piano who has never played and tell him/her to play any one note. You are saying their choice is predictable?

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Theoretically, yes. Practically, no, because a human body is a much too complex structure for us to be able to set up a mathematical equation for at this time. We don't even know completely how it works, but once we do, and make some more advances in physics and computer technology, it could be possible. This will probably take another 100000 years or so though, and we'll probably already be extinct by then.

I still disagree with your main idea here; that we are so 'pre-programmed' that our choice is 99% predictable (which, correct me if I am wrong is what I think you are trying to make).

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I believe it is 99,99% theoretically predictable (the 0,01% goes off because of quantum theory, Heisenberg uncertainty and things like that). But absolutely not yet practically predictable at this time.

My genetic make up is partly from my Mother and from My father (with multi-generational 'jumps' to prior ancestors).

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Yes, what does this have to do with free will?

So, basically, whilst I am happy to admit that out likelyhood of predictability is virtually 'set in stone', I still believe that choice is what makes us 'above' (don't like that term in this context, but it will have to do) animals.

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No, our complex brains and consciousness sets us apart from animals (not above). And this consciousness is a result from our more advanced brains. Besides, chimps also have a consciousness, just not as advanced as ours. I just wonder, you've said that you disagree with me, and that you think that we do have a choice. But you've still not given any reasons why, what do you think is erroneous in my way of thinking about this?

Science has now come to the conclusion that much of our character is formulated in the womb. Very little of it is affected by 'nurture'. And yet, if that was so, I would be an engineer today (most likely an electronic one).

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Yes, that's very possible, but what does it have to do with free will?

Events that happened in my life took me off the 'predictability road'. A nervous breakdown at an early age and a dread of exams put paid to the engineer.

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Like I said, if you can't predict something, doesn't mean that it can't be predicted.

I would not be married to my wife now had my parents not done all that they could to separate a girl with whom I was very much in love until my mid twenties. It was 'chance' that led me to meet the woman who was to become my wife.

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Yes, this is the factor input and life experiences that can have a big effect.

Another case in point. I had worked for 24 odd years through a career that was slowly killing me (I did it for the protected pension, and, perhaps because I would have had no qualifications for any other work had I left). Had it not been for the fact that I suffered the growth of cataracts (which made me blind in one eye for nigh on a year), I would never had had that final push to go to my doc and say "Enough is enough", which I did.

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Yes, the factor input.

What is more, the doc I had at the time was very near retirement; he fed me pilss and kept me going; it was only when he left and a new young doctor took his place that talk about retirement on medical grounds came into the conversation. Had it not been for him, I might well have ended up sacked, made redundant (far more likely sacked, much cheaper for the employers). You say there is no choice?

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Yes I still say that. Nothing you have typed here is in contradiction with what I have stated.

jazzalta said:

Opethian, I think there is a little overthinking here. Take a person to a piano who has never played and tell him/her to play any one note. You are saying their choice is predictable?

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Misleading question: at issue is not whether a choice is predictable but whether a choice is determined.

Misleading question: at issue is not whether a choice is predictable but whether a choice is determined.

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Yes, but I think that if the choice is determined (which I believe it is for numerous reasons as described in earlier posts), that it should also be theoretically predictable. But science hasn't advanced far enough yet for that to be possible practically.

Opethian,
Do you play an instrument?
Do you compose your own music?

Yes I play the electric guitar and make my own songs with a Line 6 Rifftracker.

If you want to hear some stuff I've made here is a link http://www.sonomawireworks.com/riffcaster/[email protected]

And no, the fact that my body processes input to generate output that determines how I compose the music does not mean I have free will .

mr.guy said:

I don't think so. It would imply a mastery of the monosyllable.

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Come again?

Bouncing Ball said:

It's not about what you think you can say, it's about what you will say. You can say no at all questions, but you will give only one answer. And if that's yes, then you would have never said no..

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I have no idea what you just said.

Victor said:

I have no idea what you just said.

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What I mean is that you do have the feeling of free will. When I am going to ask you the following question: A or B? In your head you would have just picked one. Normally..
Now, however, you will first create for yourself the feeling that you can pick it yourself. So that you are pretty sure you picked it yourself and have free will.
However, what really happened is that it was meant to be that I asked you this question. It was meant to be that you thought about it. the way you were thinking just now, all the brainusage you had were all set. Including the part where your brain gave you the feeling that you had free will..

Opethian said:

Yes I play the electric guitar and make my own songs with a Line 6 Rifftracker.

If you want to hear some stuff I've made here is a link http://www.sonomawireworks.com/riffcaster/[email protected]

And no, the fact that my body processes input to generate output that determines how I compose the music does not mean I have free will .

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Thanks for the link, it would be a pleasure to hear some of the music that you composed. I am not really sure how those two questions I posted could relate to your points, I was just actually delivering those questions for a friend.

I was looking for rebuttals to your argument that we have no free will, and came across this quote (which I like);
[SIZE=+0]--Jawaharlal Nehru[/SIZE]

michel said:

[SIZE=+0]Life is like a game of cards. The hand that is dealt you represents determinism; the way you play it is free will.[/SIZE]

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Isn't that a nice sentence and also exactly the way we would like to see it..?

micheal said:

think that is very true; genetic 'legacies' make us prone to certain behaviour patterns, but, ultimately, I believe we do have free will.

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this is where most of your thoughts bounce with ours micheal. You are thinking to the genetics and there it stops. But it doesn't stop there.. It's the entire process that counts with it. so the time that you bumped your knee when you were 5 years old is also part f the way you're thinking now..




This is the second part where we bounce
I believe in evolution. I believe we started as one celled animals.
Evolution doesn't only take place in the body, but also in the brains. With other words, our avarage artificial intelligence is growing every day (sort of)..
Somewhere in the evolution we started making preferences. preferences can help us out. not anymore they do, but in the beginning sounds and colors for example where of other value than now.

You named stealing as example. I will use that one as mine..
Stealing a cd can have an advantage. you now own the cd and you can listen to the cd whenever you want. However, stealing gives you disadvatage as well. the person you stole it from will be mad as he can't listen to that music anymore and will try to get it back. one person will steal a cd and gets killed over it. another person sees that and tells his son not to steal, you will get killed. another person steals 20 cd's and get away with them. he'll teach his son to steal cd's..

Remember that this is in short. you will have to expand this story over millions of years

I walk into a shop, and see a CD of music I love; I haven't the money to pay for it. Do I steal it, or not? The question arises, therefore the possibility of making the choice is there. Surely, if we had no free will, there would be little point in the convoluted thought processes of the reasoning of our decision?

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Say, you chose to steal the CD. Was your decision to steal the CD caused by anything? If it was caused by something, was it really a choice? If so why?

If it was not caused by something, this would imply that the decision was random. If it was random, is it really a choice? If so why?

Thanks for the link, it would be a pleasure to hear some of the music that you composed. I am not really sure how those two questions I posted could relate to your points, I was just actually delivering those questions for a friend.

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Ah ok I guess I was being a little superstitious there since everybody was asking me questions relating to free will. But anyways I hope you enjoy the music, and if you do, please leave a comment on the site .

I was looking for rebuttals to your argument that we have no free will, and came across this quote (which I like);

[SIZE=+0]Life is like a game of cards. The hand that is dealt you represents determinism; the way you play it is free will.[/SIZE]
​

[SIZE=+0]--Jawaharlal Nehru[/SIZE]

I think that is very true; genetic 'legacies' make us prone to certain behaviour patterns, but, ultimately, I believe we do have free will.​

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That's a nice little quote, but it holds little truth.

I can see how it would be easier for an athiest to accept the fact that we have no choice, but, as a theist, I still maintain that it is one of the main qualities of humans.

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I don't think it's easier for atheists like me to accept the fact that I have no choice. I mean, I have to give up a lot of things for the truth. I can't really be proud of myself anymore if I accomplish something, since I know it's just luck that I was born with the right genetics, and got the right impulses from my environment to use that talent. The bright side of that is of course that the emotion of arrogance has absolutely no reach on me anymore. How can I ever be arrogant ifI don't believe one person can be better than another by the choices he makes and the things he does?
Another thing is that I can't hate people anymore for what they've done or what they've do. I'll try to understand what drove them to do what they did, and react accordingly, and to make sure they don't do it again, but I will never punish someone out of pure hate or envy or whatever, if I know it will have no positive effect. But I think the hard part is still giving up pride.

There is no way to prove this one way or the other though.

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Nope, but who knows, if science and technology advances enough before we destroy ourselves, in the distant future, we might once prove that there is no free will.

A 'for instance':- I walk into a shop, and see a CD of music I love; I haven't the money to pay for it. Do I steal it, or not? The question arises, therefore the possibility of making the choice is there. Surely, if we had no free will, there would be little point in the convoluted thought processes of the reasoning of our decision?

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Well, actually, in every instance, you have an infinite amount of choices. You could start dancing crazily in the CD shop, you could flash your crown jewels to the CD seller, you could try and kill everybody in the shop, you could steal a CD, you could just pay for a CD, etc... And for every one of those choices I just described there's an infinite amount of ways to do them. Yet, exactly which choice your body (you) decides to take, is dependant on the input it receives, and how it processes it. Earlier life experiences (memory) also come into play here. Your brains calculate what would be the most optimal action, and then your body will take that action. You say that if we had no free will, there would little point in the convoluted thought processes of the reasoning of our decision. But these convoluted thought processes of reasoning are exactly what is needed to make the best decision. It's the coming together of all the information to the central decision taking part of our body. It's quite possible that the consciousness is the part of the decision taking process where input (from environment) comes together with the possible choices to take.