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Why Advaita Vedanta first?

तत्त्वप्रह्व

स्वभावस्थं निरावेशम्
I checked the entire second chapter of the first Mundaka and I do not see Shankara excluding women from obtaining Moksha.
Of course that'd be a futile search, for i think it would've been siddha-sādhana to detail that. My contention is that despite the highly idealistic stance, in practice vyāvahārika semblances were never transcended. For most part it would be silence being construed in any way deemed fit. But for those who've lived amongst practitioners of traditional advaita, i think, cannot but agree that gender and other differences do matter.
It would also be inconsistent of Shankara, if took such a position, given that the tradition says his famed debate with Mandana was judged by Mandana's wife, Ubhaya Bharati.
Well, wasn't much of an option i guess, i think Mandana agreed for the debate on this condition. Then again, we don't have the context of this discussion until the much later hagiographic account by other many years later.
a position not taken by other leading schools of Vedanta
But then the concepts of brahman, jīva, and prakṛti, their inter-relation, and functioning are different in every school. Isn't it only natural that with each ontological position the consequent doctrines would differ to. For me it is like saying Māyāvāda has a peculiar position about jīva-brahma-aikya not taken by other leading schools. Being derived by the scriptures i think it (tamo-yogya) is a tenable position.
videha kaivalya is completely unambiguous. On the other hand, jivan-mukti is fraught with confusion
More importantly, how does the individual himself know he is a Mukta? For if he truly is liberated, then there is no Vyavaharika and therefore, there is no liberated individual at all, which is paradoxical. He can never tell himself he is now liberated for there is no one there (Paramarthika) to make such an observation.
I agree, i think even within different streams of thought within advaita there is disagreement on jivan-mukti. I was probing into @Aupmanyav ji belief that it is possible to move between pāramārthika and vyāvahārika, because afaik full realization of the former sublates the experience of the latter, and even a jivan-mukta cannot really claim full aikya yet, as long as the body exists. But then Aup showed the Gold Card elsewhere, so we gotta accept :)

श्रीकृष्णार्पणमस्तु ।
 

तत्त्वप्रह्व

स्वभावस्थं निरावेशम्
can you please elaborate on Non-Linear Timeline? What's that?
The vedic concept of piṇḍāṇḍa-brahmāṇḍa; in the latter, time is not uniform 1 human year = 1 deva day (ahorātri), now the piṇḍāṇḍa down to the sub-atomic level reflects the structure and functioning of the brahmāṇḍa, ergo, you have non-linear timelines where it is 'humanely impossible' to determine the exact location/time of a sub-atomic particle.

श्रीकृष्णार्पणमस्तु ।
 

atanu

Member
Premium Member
The other thing about widespread Advaita is it has become "loose" enough to accommodate just about any belief. Different people who consider themselves to be following Advaita have different views and many of these views are in contrast with one another.

But I think that is natural. There are varieties of advAitins too, just as you are an ajAtivAdin.
 

atanu

Member
Premium Member
I didn't want to derail Orbit's thread any more than it's already been derailed so am starting this new one on the topic of why Advaita Vedanta is often the first Hindu philosophy that non-Hindu curious westerners hit.

I thought that most westerners first encounter the ISKCON variety? Of course I do not know for sure.

I truly believe that the final conclusion is Advaita ... pure monism. The difference is all about how we get there.

I have the same understanding. Different schools are fundamentally names of different paths suitable for different levels, different cultures, different preferences etc..

Eventually, if the goal is to realise the One without a second Supreme, one cannot realise it as a second to it, since the seeing-knowing (the power of consciousness) is not the faculty of an individual ego.
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
I thought that most westerners first encounter the ISKCON variety? Of course I do not know for sure.
That was very true back when ISKCON did kirtan on the streets. Now your average westerner wouldn't be able to tell the difference from an ISKCON temple or a Sanatani temple. First encounters are often through the western non-dual teachers.
 

Kirran

Premium Member
That was very true back when ISKCON did kirtan on the streets. Now your average westerner wouldn't be able to tell the difference from an ISKCON temple or a Sanatani temple. First encounters are often through the western non-dual teachers.

I've come across them handing out leaflets and asking for donations in city/town centres before. Here in Manchester, in Portsmouth and even in Aberystwyth. Mostly Eastern Europeans.

But certainly, they don't have the profile they once did.
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
Yes, Kirran, I've heard that the eastern European versions of ISKCON are more likely to take to the streets. The last time I encountered any on the streets was in India, proselytising at a Saiva temple. Here, as far as I know, its limited to the annual Ratha Yatri festivals.
 

StarryNightshade

Spiritually confused Jew
Premium Member
I've come across them handing out leaflets and asking for donations in city/town centres before. Here in Manchester, in Portsmouth and even in Aberystwyth. Mostly Eastern Europeans.

But certainly, they don't have the profile they once did.

The only time I ran into one was a lone monk at my college campus about 2 ( :eek: ) years ago. The nearest ISKCON temple is 3 hours away.

I sometimes wonder if he got, at the very least, one interested person to check out the temple. Or get their copy of the Gita.
 

Shantanu

Well-Known Member
The ISKCON group certainly brought Sri Krishna into international attention, but they are a bhakti-tradition whereas the jnana tradition that addresses theistic knowledge and realisation has not been successfully addressed within India or outside by a sampradaya/parampara to rationalise thousands of years of Hindu dualistic culture. But at personal level I have come across individuals who are deeply knowledgeable on it to swear by it.
 

ShivaFan

Satyameva Jayate
Premium Member
Just to comment on some ISKCON mention in this thread, I am not so sure this is the reality in regards to public chanting known as Harinam Sankirtan, as if ISKCON doing such things is part of the "old days" and does not engage with the public as they did in the past. I am also not so sure of the idea that Hindu sects such as this one which are decidedly "dwaita" and Bhakti (devotional with dualism) in nature verse adwaita and "Vedantic" like are taking a back seat to notice by "Westerners", I am not so sure this is true at least in my area of the Northern and Southern Bay Area of California.

One of the big one's as far as ISKCON is ISKCON of the Silicon Valley (as in "computer land" Silicon Valley some may have heard of, a center for high tech and computer development and industry).

Let me just zoom in on the Silicon Valley, with hubs in Cupertino and Mountain View. Here Apple has it's Headquarters. Here, too, ISKCON has one of it's popular "HQ's", ISKCON of the Silicon Valley in Mountain View.

Don't be surprised if some in well-placed positions in Apple Computers are also active in ISKCON.

Yes, it is true, many Indians live in the Silicon Valley because of their contributions to high tech. Many "Westerners" non-Indian as well. Yes it is true, an ISKCON center gets many Indians as visitors now, and if one works in IT and is a Hindu like me, you can detect or ohserve their interest in ISKCON. It is a fact. Now not all Indian Hindus are interested in ISKCON in the Northern Bay Area of California, typically they attend "community center" oriented Hindu temples with heavy guest participation of Indians (but "Westerners" also come). These have often "all sect" orientation, viz Shiva, Vishnu, Ganesh (always), Devi (always), even often also Hanuman, these are the "main" often found and many have Krishna, many have the 9 Planets also or Ram.

But these very same Indian Hindus do NOT only attend just one temple that is the community based, they attend MANY temples (even on the same given day, typically weekends) including those that are sect specific such as ISKCON.

The ISKCON center in Silicon Valley (I have visited twice) has a very upbeat following that is about half-Indian and half-Non-Indian (call them "Westerners", whatever you like). They have all the traditional ISKCON activities familiar to Hindus such as temple worship inclusive of devotional singing and dancing, Gita classes, food to share for guests as prashad, etc...

ISKCON in NOT "hiding" from the Harinam public chanting in the streets, either. At least not where I live in the Bay Area. You will see them near Universities, one typical location is the University of Palo Alto and both "Westerners" and Indians are leading the public chanting and not just "whites" as in the "early days". (They are also coming to UC Berkeley etc., but are very active in the Silicon Valley....).

As far as "where Westerners first encounter Hinduism", many do have this first encounter via ISKCON in the Silicon Valley. How? Well, one way is "white" association with Indians in high tech, and ISKCON of Silicon Valley has an effective weave into the fabric of many high tech Indians, the "Westerner" in high tech becomes curious.

Not as prominent in the "early years", but it did exist then, was an ISKCON program(s) of having shared vegetarian food and devotional singing at homes, invites, circuits like that, homes would invite ISKCON and then anyone as guest directly to their home for such "events". This has become very big with ISKCON today, however. You see their ads, in community as well as computer type "hubs" and local flyers and newspapers, etc.. You will see today Indian homes having such events, they invite others including "Westerners". These are ISKCON events, not "Vedanta Society" or advaita centric events.

While this is not "public" propagation of ISKCON to attract attention of other "Westerners" to Hinduism as is public chanting, it is a form of ISKCON propagation nevertheless.

By the way, I have noticed MAHAYANA Buddhists in the Silicon Valley "taking the cue" from ISKCON and now active in the very same type of "home events" and invites in high tech zones and circles.

There is an inroad by ISKCON into the high tech community, there is no question about it.

Didn't mean to go off subject a bit, but ISKCON was brought up and the impression given was a bit off the mark as far as what my eyes, ears and "boots on the ground" reality has observed of late. Have at it with your discussion on advaita and enjoy!
 

Shantanu

Well-Known Member
Just to comment on some ISKCON mention in this thread, I am not so sure this is the reality in regards to public chanting known as Harinam Sankirtan, as if ISKCON doing such things is part of the "old days" and does not engage with the public as they did in the past. I am also not so sure of the idea that Hindu sects such as this one which are decidedly "dwaita" and Bhakti (devotional with dualism) in nature verse adwaita and "Vedantic" like are taking a back seat to notice by "Westerners", I am not so sure this is true at least in my area of the Northern and Southern Bay Area of California.

One of the big one's as far as ISKCON is ISKCON of the Silicon Valley (as in "computer land" Silicon Valley some may have heard of, a center for high tech and computer development and industry).

Let me just zoom in on the Silicon Valley, with hubs in Cupertino and Mountain View. Here Apple has it's Headquarters. Here, too, ISKCON has one of it's popular "HQ's", ISKCON of the Silicon Valley in Mountain View.

Don't be surprised if some in well-placed positions in Apple Computers are also active in ISKCON.

Yes, it is true, many Indians live in the Silicon Valley because of their contributions to high tech. Many "Westerners" non-Indian as well. Yes it is true, an ISKCON center gets many Indians as visitors now, and if one works in IT and is a Hindu like me, you can detect or ohserve their interest in ISKCON. It is a fact. Now not all Indian Hindus are interested in ISKCON in the Northern Bay Area of California, typically they attend "community center" oriented Hindu temples with heavy guest participation of Indians (but "Westerners" also come). These have often "all sect" orientation, viz Shiva, Vishnu, Ganesh (always), Devi (always), even often also Hanuman, these are the "main" often found and many have Krishna, many have the 9 Planets also or Ram.

But these very same Indian Hindus do NOT only attend just one temple that is the community based, they attend MANY temples (even on the same given day, typically weekends) including those that are sect specific such as ISKCON.

The ISKCON center in Silicon Valley (I have visited twice) has a very upbeat following that is about half-Indian and half-Non-Indian (call them "Westerners", whatever you like). They have all the traditional ISKCON activities familiar to Hindus such as temple worship inclusive of devotional singing and dancing, Gita classes, food to share for guests as prashad, etc...

ISKCON in NOT "hiding" from the Harinam public chanting in the streets, either. At least not where I live in the Bay Area. You will see them near Universities, one typical location is the University of Palo Alto and both "Westerners" and Indians are leading the public chanting and not just "whites" as in the "early days". (They are also coming to UC Berkeley etc., but are very active in the Silicon Valley....).

As far as "where Westerners first encounter Hinduism", many do have this first encounter via ISKCON in the Silicon Valley. How? Well, one way is "white" association with Indians in high tech, and ISKCON of Silicon Valley has an effective weave into the fabric of many high tech Indians, the "Westerner" in high tech becomes curious.

Not as prominent in the "early years", but it did exist then, was an ISKCON program(s) of having shared vegetarian food and devotional singing at homes, invites, circuits like that, homes would invite ISKCON and then anyone as guest directly to their home for such "events". This has become very big with ISKCON today, however. You see their ads, in community as well as computer type "hubs" and local flyers and newspapers, etc.. You will see today Indian homes having such events, they invite others including "Westerners". These are ISKCON events, not "Vedanta Society" or advaita centric events.

While this is not "public" propagation of ISKCON to attract attention of other "Westerners" to Hinduism as is public chanting, it is a form of ISKCON propagation nevertheless.

By the way, I have noticed MAHAYANA Buddhists in the Silicon Valley "taking the cue" from ISKCON and now active in the very same type of "home events" and invites in high tech zones and circles.

There is an inroad by ISKCON into the high tech community, there is no question about it.

Didn't mean to go off subject a bit, but ISKCON was brought up and the impression given was a bit off the mark as far as what my eyes, ears and "boots on the ground" reality has observed of late. Have at it with your discussion on advaita and enjoy!
Thank you ShivaFan; that is very informative and interesting to note.
 
You will also find many Hi tech folks in the other groups. My personal impression that most of the folks who practice are members of many different groups that are not Iscon. Amma, Two Vedanta societies and many other temples are very popular in the Bay Area. But, of coarse my personal impressions could be off.

I would say that Amma's group is the most popular in area. Sometimes 1000s come to her programs when she is in town. Not that I am a follower of hers. She can fill up stadiums with her programs. It has been said that Amma is in the league of the Dalai Lama when it comes to the popularity of her public tours.
 
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