The teaching of control

Religion teaches control but scripture teaches "let God's will be done". God's will not YOUR will.

Will God ever control the world? It is a thinking question. I know the answer.

If God will never control you or them why does the BIBLE teach control?

It doesn't.

savagewind said:

Religion teaches control but scripture teaches "let God's will be done". God's will not YOUR will.

Will God ever control the world? It is a thinking question. I know the answer.

If God will never control you or them why does the BIBLE teach control?

Click to expand...

Ahh, I understand what you are saying now.. Yes, I agree, exactly.
I didn't quite understand what you were getting at in the OP.

The written word which is called The Bible teaches control. Some say that the teaching of control is wrong. The teaching of love is right. I agree. It is what I am saying.

BUT Jesus saying "go make disciples" is controlling what you do. It really is. Does the Bible say to go make disciples? It does. It is about control.

Too scary to think about. It also says cowards will not inherit God's Kingdom so you really have to think about it.

savagewind said:

I am not talking about self control which is a fruit of God's Spirit.

Click to expand...

I would love for you to explain what that looks like? Does is mean you make no effort? It just happens magically? You just get up in the morning and everything happens automatically without any participation of will on your part? This sounds very confused to me.

savagewind said:

I am taking about the controlling of the self and others.

Click to expand...

Controlling others???? Whoa, that doesn't sound very Christlike.

savagewind said:

Do you think "I make myself do it" is the same as "I wish to do all things according to the will of God"?

Click to expand...

Yes. Of course. You don't think you have a choice in the matter? Self-control and self-discipline would be towards following the "will of God", which can of course be understood in ways beyond just doing what you think the Bible is dictating you to do. Following the will of God is following Spirit which is known through a dynamic and living intuition, not by reading static words in a book. And to do that, it requires you put yourself in front of that. You choose to discipline yourself in order to be receptive to this. It doesn't happen without your will and your actions. You have to take the lid off the jar.

savagewind said:

The first is work and the second is a blessing.

Click to expand...

Sure, the will to do good is a 'gift', but then you have to have to have self-control to do to this. You certainly have the option to do nothing about it.

savagewind said:

Do you know WHY self-control is listed LAST of the fruits of the Spirit?

Click to expand...

Arbitrary order of words, poetic flow, style? Something like that I suspect.

savagewind said:

Because it comes from LEARNING. It is not about FORCING it.

Click to expand...

I think you are supplying meaning of "force" when none is being suggested. Someone, anyone, first makes a choice to become something better for themselves, like choosing to lose weight. They are inspired to do so, then choose to do what is necessary, and discipline themselves to reach that goal. You could chose to use some dramatic word as "force yourself", but I think it's more cooperative than that. That's what self-control is. It's not forcing yourself against your own will.

I think you are confused about what self-control is.

savagewind said:

I am preaching against the forcing of self-control.

YOU are preaching it belongs to people to make themselves self-controled.

Click to expand...

I am not preaching anything. I'm just using common sense, reason, and experience to talk attempt to clarify your confusion and conflation of terms. But it is nice to know you see yourself as preaching to others.

savagewind said:

I AM preaching it is God's gift.

Click to expand...

Which without self-control is wasted.

savagewind said:

I had a vision of believers switching the list of the fruits of the spirit. Love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faith, mildness, self control.

I think the order is important. THEY teach self control first. It is last.

Oh, they do? Yes they do. "Come to our place of worship where you must learn to be mild tempered, where you will learn our faith, which will lead to works of goodness, people will think you are kind (which will draw more to us), you must be patient (for the promises we make won't come true in your lifetime, though we say they will), you must die in peace with God who will be glad to resurrect you to a place of LOVE. "

Is that NOT what they teach?

Click to expand...

I see that we love because he first loved us: 1 John 4:19

And I see that he has long been first loving us: Matthew 5:45

Therefore I believe that it all begins with a token response on our part, which has been spurred in us by his loving faithfulness toward us, which then spurs a beginning love and faith in us, all of this even while we were yet sinners. And for those who willingly take note of His goodness in this way, so as to let themselves be spurred to that beginning of love and faith by love, He unselfishly stepped in to further to provide us His Son that our love and our faith could grow even stronger: Romans 5:8; 1 John 4:19

Experiencing His love and and learning that we can have undoubted faith in that love, births the patience of an assured hope within us, knowing that He will do all things He has promised for us. By virtue of our ever increasing love and faith, witnessing His love and faithfulness always at work for us, His promises then seem almost as real to us as though they already are, for all doubt has been erased by His faithfulness. That is when we begin to really experience the fulness of joy, knowing that anything we suffer now to get to His end for us is well worth it.

Now that we are not any longer being made insecure by doubt and fear,our love is able to become perfect: 1 John 4:18

Now that we are not any longer being made insecure by doubt and fear, our empathy for what others are enduring in life frees us to know how to love them, spurring kindness in us which we could not have otherwise known.

Now that we are not any longer being made insecure by fear and thus able to more fully know love and faith, and the patience of hope and the kindness of empathy, our peace is maximized, for we know that His ways are the best ways and we have no need to doubt that eventually we will realize all that we hope for in Him as he has promised.

At that point it is easier to have self-control. But self-control had to begin hard pressed in the beginning for us to even willingly take notice of these things that we might respond to them.

Really, all these things began hard pressed as we listened to Him and agreed that we were willing to try, and all of these things grow stronger and more perfect within us as we remain willing and faithful to him out of appreciation for His love and faithfulness toward us which we now know He has always had.

He is the same today as yesterday and will be the same tomorrow. He does not change. We just need to prove that to ourselves and willingly take note of it, seeing it all the more as we go.

Windwalker said:

I would love for you to explain what that looks like? Does is mean you make no effort? It just happens magically? You just get up in the morning and everything happens automatically without any participation of will on your part? This sounds very confused to me.

Click to expand...

I am not talking about the general term and condition of self-control. I am talking about three or four scriptures which focus on control and not love.

Controlling others???? Whoa, that doesn't sound very Christlike.

Click to expand...

Yes. it is my point I am failing in making

Yes. Of course. You don't think you have a choice in the matter? Self-control and self-discipline would be towards following the "will of God", which can of course be understood in ways beyond just doing what you think the Bible is dictating you to do. Following the will of God is following Spirit which is known through a dynamic and living intuition, not by reading static words in a book. And to do that, it requires you put yourself in front of that. You choose to discipline yourself in order to be receptive to this. It doesn't happen without your will and your actions. You have to take the lid off the jar.

Click to expand...

Perfect. I agree.

Sure, the will to do good is a 'gift', but then you have to have to have self-control to do to this. You certainly have the option to do nothing about it.

Click to expand...

I do not agree the will to do good is a gift. The will to do good is wisdom, I think, and wisdom is a gift. Will is a choice. I believe in self-control fyi. What I am saying is the scriptures they say are about self-control are not. They are about love. All scripture which is inspired of God is about love. NOT about control.

Arbitrary order of words, poetic flow, style? Something like that I suspect.

Click to expand...

I do not agree. I am no one going nowhere and God knows only one or two people have ever given my words more than a second of consideration but I think the Bible writers knew their words would become established so they would have considered them very carefully. I am as sure as I can be the order matters.

I think you are supplying meaning of "force" when none is being suggested.

Click to expand...

I force myself not to get angry. I force myself to wear a dress to EVERY Sunday meeting. I force myself to go door to door inviting others to force their selves.
But I agree with you that real heaven sent self-control is never about force. Yah! we agree

I think you are confused about what self-control is.

Click to expand...

I am sure you are not hearing what I am saying and I can't force you to hear me.LOL

I am not preaching anything. I'm just using common sense, reason, and experience to talk attempt to clarify your confusion and conflation of terms.

Click to expand...

I am sorry you think that is what I am NOT doing.

But it is nice to know you see yourself as preaching to others

Click to expand...

That I think is sarcasm. I am aware that while I am practicing the gift of self -control I should not communicate sarcastically.

Which without self-control is wasted.

Click to expand...

I agree. The practice of love (first) and the others of God's fruits (which we eat and can't produce on our own - like they seem to say we can) will be a sorry waste if we do not endure to the end which end is self control.

Self-control grows from mildness which comes from faith which is given for goodness which is strenghtened by kindness which is possible through patience which is born out of peace which is chosen for joy which comes from love.

Love is the beginning not the end.

My friend Snarky says stick with just one point. Three is too many......

People read "not forsaking gathering together" as a command from God The Almighty to meet together, never forsaking a meeting that you are able to go to.

Is it OK to believe it? I guess it is OK. Is it OK to teach it? I think not. Telling a person it is God's will that he or she should gather together in a certain church is CONTROLLING the one that is being taught it. The Bible actually does not specify that the gathering is being done physically. That is what I wish people would admit. It is implied that God's will is for you to find the right church, gather to it, commit to it, and STAY there.

Can anyone tell me that is not about control? Self-control? It has NOTHING to do with SELF-control. It is about controlling others.

Why is The Bible about the control of others? That is what I am talking about.

Not only do they teach it is the right thing, they say it is God's command. Is it? It is in The Bible.

There are just three options which I can see.

1. It is right The Bible says meet together physically so it is righteous to expect it from yourselves and others

2. It isn't right which means the Bible is wrong

3. The Bible is right and it means something else.

The Pharisees chose tradition over Jesus, the way, truth and life.

savagewind said:

My friend Snarky says stick with just one point. Three is too many......

People read "not forsaking gathering together" as a command from God The Almighty to meet together, never forsaking a meeting that you are able to go to.

Is it OK to believe it? I guess it is OK. Is it OK to teach it? I think not. Telling a person it is God's will that he or she should gather together in a certain church is CONTROLLING the one that is being taught it. The Bible actually does not specify that the gathering is being done physically. That is what I wish people would admit. It is implied that God's will is for you to find the right church, gather to it, commit to it, and STAY there.

Can anyone tell me that is not about control? Self-control? It has NOTHING to do with SELF-control. It is about controlling others.

Why is The Bible about the control of others? That is what I am talking about.

Not only do they teach it is the right thing, they say it is God's command. Is it? It is in The Bible.

There are just three options which I can see.

1. It is right The Bible says meet together physically so it is righteous to expect it from yourselves and others

2. It isn't right which means the Bible is wrong

3. The Bible is right and it means something else.

Click to expand...

Yes, I see your point and agree with you.

Our motivation for gathering together must be love and compelled by love, nothing else. And the anxiousness of those who care about us often tends to express itself in the wrong way by it turning into an attempt to control. We can expect that, for they, too, must continue to grow. However, we ought to be able to find those among them with the maturity that let's love be the entire appeal, if the group be advancing in the spirit of God.

Mountain_Climber said:

Yes, I see your point and agree with you.

Our motivation for gathering together must be love and compelled by love, nothing else. And the anxiousness of those who care about us often tends to express itself in the wrong way by it turning into an attempt to control. We can expect that, for they, too, must continue to grow. However, we ought to be able to find those among them with the maturity that let's love be the entire appeal, if the group be advancing in the spirit of God.

Click to expand...

Thank you for your thoughtful response.

I agree that anything I do should be motivated by love but what do you mean by compel?

I do not agree that Hebrews 10:25 is a scripture about meeting together for love. I believe what is written about Jesus, that he is the way, the truth and the life is not for allegory. I believe he really is the way, truth and life. So I believe Hebrews 10:25 is a scripture about gathering to the way, the truth and life. Of course, love is the most important factor in each but not the only thing. God is love.

So "not forsaking gathering together" means to me do not leave the way for the truth which leads to life.


It is related to truth which is related to the rightness of what we think and believe.

savagewind said:

Thank you for your thoughtful response.

I agree that anything I do should be motivated by love but what do you mean by compel?

I do not agree that Hebrews 10:25 is a scripture about meeting together for love. I believe what is written about Jesus, that he is the way, the truth and the life is not for allegory. I believe he really is the way, truth and life. So I believe Hebrews 10:25 is a scripture about gathering to the way, the truth and life. Of course, love is the most important factor in each but not the only thing. God is love.

So "not forsaking gathering together" means to me do not leave the way for the truth which leads to life.


It is related to truth which is related to the rightness of what we think and believe.

Click to expand...

Hebrews 10:25 is definitely a scripture about meeting together in love of neighbor out of obedience to the greatest commandment and to Jesus' words that they would be known by the love they have among themselves. Matthew 22:37; John 13:34-35; Acts 20:35; 1 Thessalonians 5:14

This does include the thought you have zeroed in on, for it has to before we as individuals could be of benefit to anyone else. Deuteronomy 31:12; Matthew 18:20; Acts 2:42; Acts 20:8

But it's thought is definitely that of gathering together with others of like faith to share encouragement from our faithfulness to God in Christ, with these others: Hebrews 10:25 "Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching."

Additionally, we must remember that chief among Paul's goals was the unification of the body of Christ, aka the building of and the supporting of God's church or congregation, even though he often was made to feel even as some of us have been made to at times feel: 2 Corinthians 12:15 "And I will very gladly spend and be spent for you; though the more abundantly I love you, the less I be loved."

I am not against brothers and sisters gathering together in Christ but I am against this fleshly institutionalization by pet names and pet doctrines which divides the body of Christ:
1 Corinthians 1:11-13 "For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you. Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ. Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?"

And I know there are those whose circumstances make it too great a hardship to gather together at a specific location. Today, however, all a congregation need do is to arrange for isolated ones to be able to share as best they can via telephone and/or Internet. Of course not forgetting the congregation's obligation to pay personal visits to these physically or even mentally challenged ones in proper ways and amounts.

How do you know Hebrews is not about gathering together to the mind of Christ which is not physical but is spiritual?

Also why does the writer mention people forsaking gathering together physically? Can you make sense of that for me please?

By the way, to interpret it as a spiritual gathering to the truth does in no way lessen the advantages of a physical gathering. The two ideas are independent of each other. imho.

I cannot see forsake is the correct word for not meeting physically. If I would forsake ever meeting with you I am excluding you and therefore am not Christian. Why would the writer tell people who would exclude the other members of Christ's body that?

It makes sense to say some forsake having the mind of Christ. Does it not?

Let's break it down.

Be not forsaking gathering together physically.

If I would forsake gathering to others who are Christ's sheep am I Christ's sheep? No! Why would the writer tell a goat not to stop gathering to the sheep? Assuming the earth has only sheep and goats.

Do you understand the question?

Tradition is a VERY powerful thing. Tradition CONTROLS your thoughts.

Why do people gather together at a summit? What is the initiative of a human gathering for peace let's say?

Isn't it for coming to an agreement?

Hebrews 10:25

Take away the initiative of a meeting of Christ followers. What have you? Cake.

Is the Bible really about a tea party? What do you think?

Now I am thinking of my Mormon brothers. That would make it a water party. No tea, no coffee

savagewind said:

Let's break it down.

Be not forsaking gathering together physically.

If I would forsake gathering to others who are Christ's sheep am I Christ's sheep? No! Why would the writer tell a goat not to stop gathering to the sheep? Assuming the earth has only sheep and goats.

Do you understand the question?

Click to expand...

OK. I did not know that you are not a Christian.

That is very simple. Paul was writing to the churches and in Hebrews specifically to his believing Hebrew brethren.

The New Testament is not written to nonbelievers. It is written to believers.

In fact, not even the Old Testament was written to unbelievers but to those who believed that they might know how to help unbelievers.

"Isn't it for coming to an agreement?" Yes, even the believers need yet to come to fuller agreement. We see that painfully today. They have only ever really succeeded in small groups that get suppressed from being heard or found by the so many who yet disagree.

Mountain_Climber said:

OK. I did not know that you are not a Christian.

That is very simple. Paul was writing to the churches and in Hebrews specifically to his believing Hebrew brethren.

The New Testament is not written to nonbelievers. It is written to believers.

In fact, not even the Old Testament was written to unbelievers but to those who believed that they might know how to help unbelievers.

"Isn't it for coming to an agreement?" Yes, even the believers need yet to come to fuller agreement. We see that painfully today. They have only ever really succeeded in small groups that get suppressed from being heard or found by the so many who yet disagree.

Click to expand...

Tell me why I am not a Christian in your opinion.

Maybe you did not read the word "IF" at the beginning of the sentence.