Men's Rights Movements.

MysticSang'ha said:

Ha! Coming from a man who deleted all his "thanks for the frubie" messages from my profile after our mutually agreed split. It's rare to see this level of passive aggressive behavior.
If you wish to keep responding to my posts, feel free. But remember who you're opening the door again to. I make no apologies for calling people out for blatant misrepresentations which I think you do often when feminism is discussed. Either we're all in again or we go our separate ways. I'm not getting ****ed around.
I've always offered arm wrestling to make this war more fun. Wanna join? Or would you rather sit and pout?

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I've no interest in formal limitations.
We'll each post as we see fit.
I prefer that it be civil, about the issues, & as impersonal as possible.
If you have any other personal concerns, I'd prefer a PM.

Revoltingest said:

This seems the wrong venue (as opposed to PM) to air interpersonal difficulties, but I'll
reiterate that when I ended our friendship, I was clear that we'd still converse.
Tis not aggression to respond to posts which call to me, so you're not a victim here.

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Nope. But I will call out passive aggressive behavior when I see it.

You repeatedly & clearly made a vile false accusation of "gaslighting" you.
Ref....

I found this unacceptable, & defriended you.
That's all it is. Now we're just 2 acquaintances on RF
You should accept that there can be vigorous disagreement, & yet both sides are honest.

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Vile false accusation. Pfft. Totally true. You've been called out repeatedly from more than just a few people for being dismissive, condescending, explaining to feminists what feminism really is or should be, but the worst were the attempts to "innocently" tell women how not to get raped....that one I repeatedly and fairly mentioned to you how disrespectful and harmful that is to do. Especially with survivors of sexual assault. When you continued with that rhetoric in spite of my reminders that it IS indeed harmful, your response was always how wrong I was, and that my advocacy in rape crisis centers was wrong and that you were more right.

So the gaslighting comment was nowhere near false. It's very true. Your attempts at painting my perspective as false, as detrimental to rape victims and potential rape victims and targets was where first blood was drawn, rev. I called it out. You called my response abusive. Sad, but typical.

I requested PM conversation, you refused saying you wanted to keep it out in the open. Well here we are again. And I would remind you that calling somebody out for gaslighting is NOT a rule violation. Gaslighting is indeed a cruel dismissal of - in our case - repeated and somewhat apologetic attacks on my experience as a rape survivor (often times reminding me of how careful you tried to dismiss my perspective of it all), dismissal of my explanations of what actually helps survivors and targets, and dressing your attacks all as mere pragmatic suggestions for women on how not to get raped. It most definitely was gaslighting.

You telling me repeatedly that it's nothing but beneficial to coach women on being "pragmatic" when the vast majority of people male and female are raped by people they know and trust. It happened to me. And your advice if I were to consider it would have extremely harmful and detrimental and nowhere near any help to what happened.

So look. I'm not asking to be friends again. I want to know if you're understanding what is going to happen again. Look, being anti-feminist is not a rule violation. I get that. Saying somebody is gaslighting another person is not a rule violation. So let's make that very clear. You think I was cruel and vile? Your "advice " to me was cruel, brah.

Oh and conspiracy of staff being complicit? LOL... No...just staff doing their job and deciding through consensus what is the appropriate action to take on any consensual decision of rule violations.

But please feel free to think that. Staff gets attacked every now and then by people who don't get their way by thinking we are all Christian or Muslim or Jewish megalomaniacs, we are atheist supremacists, and now we are all feminist supremacists according to your complaint. It's cute, but so so wrong.

I guess the door is opened now. I'm ready. I still think arm wrestling would be more fun. But it is what it is.

Gosh golly...it would be great if the majority of the people in this thread could actually stick to the OP. Y'all have plenty of opportunities to hate on feminism in the dozens of other "feminism sucks" threads.

MysticSang'ha said:

Vile false accusation. Pfft. Totally true. You've been called out repeatedly from more than just a few people for being dismissive, condescending, explaining to feminists what feminism really is or should be, but the worst were the attempts to "innocently" tell women how not to get raped....that one I repeatedly and fairly mentioned to you how disrespectful and harmful that is to do. Especially with survivors of sexual assault. When you continued with that rhetoric in spite of my reminders that it IS indeed harmful, your response was always how wrong I was, and that my advocacy in rape crisis centers was wrong and that you were more right.
So the gaslighting comment was nowhere near false. It's very true. Your attempts at painting my perspective as false, as detrimental to rape victims and potential rape victims and targets was where first blood was drawn, rev. I called it out. You called my response abusive. Sad, but typical.
I requested PM conversation, you refused saying you wanted to keep it out in the open. Well here we are again. And I would remind you that calling somebody out for gaslighting is NOT a rule violation. Gaslighting is indeed a cruel dismissal of - in our case - repeated and somewhat apologetic attacks on my experience as a rape survivor (often times reminding me of how careful you tried to dismiss my perspective of it all), dismissal of my explanations of what actually helps survivors and targets, and dressing your attacks all as mere pragmatic suggestions for women on how not to get raped. It most definitely was gaslighting.
You telling me repeatedly that it's nothing but beneficial to coach women on being "pragmatic" when the vast majority of people male and female are raped by people they know and trust. It happened to me. And your advice if I were to consider it would have extremely harmful and detrimental and nowhere near any help to what happened.
So look. I'm not asking to be friends again. I want to know if you're understanding what is going to happen again. Look, being anti-feminist is not a rule violation. I get that. Saying somebody is gaslighting another person is not a rule violation. So let's make that very clear. You think I was cruel and vile? Your "advice " to me was cruel, brah.

Oh and conspiracy of staff being complicit? LOL... No...just staff doing their job and deciding through consensus what is the appropriate action to take on any consensual decision of rule violations.

But please feel free to think that. Staff gets attacked every now and then by people who don't get their way by thinking we are all Christian or Muslim or Jewish megalomaniacs, we are atheist supremacists, and now we are all feminist supremacists according to your complaint. It's cute, but so so wrong.

I guess the door is opened now. I'm ready. I still think arm wrestling would be more fun. But it is what it is.

Gosh golly...it would be great if the majority of the people in this thread could actually stick to the OP. Y'all have plenty of opportunities to hate on feminism in the dozens of other "feminism sucks" threads.

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The only thing you're victimized by here is your own over-active persecution fantasy life.
It just isn't about you or staff.

MysticSang'ha said:

Vile false accusation. Pfft. Totally true. You've been called out repeatedly from more than just a few people for being dismissive, condescending, explaining to feminists what feminism really is or should be, but the worst were the attempts to "innocently" tell women how not to get raped....that one I repeatedly and fairly mentioned to you how disrespectful and harmful that is to do. Especially with survivors of sexual assault. When you continued with that rhetoric in spite of my reminders that it IS indeed harmful, your response was always how wrong I was, and that my advocacy in rape crisis centers was wrong and that you were more right.

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Wrong.
Any suggestions within the framework of crime-prevention, loss-prevention or health and safety need to be treated as highly valuable, and when people start to criticise such advice on the principle that this is improper, or demeaning, then they begin to work against the protection of the group which they purport to support.
For me, this is a good example of how a good cause can become fanatical, actually undermining itself.

MysticSang'ha said:

Nope. But I will call out passive aggressive behavior when I see it.

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MysticSang'ha, I do appreciate you are upset, and I honestly feel for you. I can sympathise with your trauma and the horror you have been through, and how Revoltingest's comments may be triggering. Really, I have no empathy for rapists. I have tried, and failed, to place myself in the shoes of anyone who relates to women that way. I just can't do it.

Revoltingest's comments do seem to me more of an unempathetic callous disregard than actively abusive gaslighting, however. I've been on the receiving end of that myself on this board's chat. As a male I was simply advised to grow a thicker skin when I was triggered, and told I was making a fuss about nothing. I think you can see the problems with such attitudes.

My concern here though is that your public "calling out" can be seen as a direct violation of forum rule #1, and by a staff member too. This can also be seen as a violation of rule #11, in addition to derailing this discussion. Since you are an admin though, this really isn't my place to judge, however as a forum user this does seem less than professional, sorry to say.

From one human being to another, though, *hugs*. I honestly feel you.

oldbadger said:

Wrong.
Any suggestions within the framework of crime-prevention, loss-prevention or health and safety need to be treated as highly valuable, and when people start to criticise such advice on the principle that this is improper, or demeaning, then they begin to work against the protection of the group which they purport to support.
For me, this is a good example of how a good cause can become fanatical, actually undermining itself.

Click to expand...

This is somewhat related....
I once had a tenant who was a Unity Church minister. (I had quite a few friends in that church.) He installed blinds in his office when he got a computer (back in the 80s when those things were spendy & targeted by thieves), so that it wouldn't be visible from the outside. He got a lot of flak from some parishioners for taking precautions against theft. Their reasoning was that by thinking about theft, one caused the universe to deliver it to oneself. This group developed a culture of believing that safety enhancing measures were wrong. That seems to have subsided now.

Anyway, call me a "misogynist", but I still believe that we can do things to minimize suffering & woe.

oldbadger said:

Wrong.
Any suggestions within the framework of crime-prevention, loss-prevention or health and safety need to be treated as highly valuable, and when people start to criticise such advice on the principle that this is improper, or demeaning, then they begin to work against the protection of the group which they purport to support.
For me, this is a good example of how a good cause can become fanatical, actually undermining itself.

Click to expand...

I am somewhat divided on this issue.

On the one hand I can see the philosophical difference between genuine victim blaming and exhortations to prudence. The latter do not in themselves absolve the perpetrator of guilt or shift the blame onto the victim.

On the other, I can see how unsolicited advice can be much less than helpful, to say the least.

Mequa said:

MysticSang'ha, I do appreciate you are upset, and I honestly feel for you. I can sympathise with your trauma and the horror you have been through, and how Revoltingest's comments may be triggering. Really, I have no empathy for rapists. I have tried, and failed, to place myself in the shoes of anyone who relates to women that way. I just can't do it.

Revoltingest's comments do seem to me more of an unempathetic callous disregard than actively abusive gaslighting, however. I've been on the receiving end of that myself on this board's chat. As a male I was simply advised to grow a thicker skin when I was triggered, and told I was making a fuss about nothing. I think you can see the problems with such attitudes.

My concern here though is that your public "calling out" can be seen as a direct violation of forum rule #1, and by a staff member too. This can also be seen as a violation of rule #11, in addition to derailing this discussion. Since you are an admin though, this really isn't my place to judge, however as a forum user this does seem less than professional, sorry to say.

From one human being to another, though, *hugs*. I honestly feel you.

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Just so you know, I really am challenged in the empathy department.
Reading how other's feel never came naturally to me.
I generally don't disregard the feelings of others....when I'm aware of them.

Revoltingest said:

This is somewhat related....
I once had a tenant who was a Unity Church minister. (I had quite a few friends in that church.) He installed blinds in his office when he got a computer (back in the 80s when those things were spendy & targeted by thieves), so that it wouldn't be visible from the outside. He got a lot of flak from some parishioners for taking precautions against theft. Their reasoning was that by thinking about theft, one caused the universe to deliver it to oneself. This group developed a culture of believing that safety enhancing measures were wrong. That seems to have subsided now.

Anyway, call me a "misogynist", but I still believe that we can do things to minimize suffering & woe.

Click to expand...

Yes....... anybody who advocates crime prevention and reduction cannot be all bad.
I notice that some members are rape victim advocates, which is good, but crime prevention advocates must have equal recognition.
Some people don't seem to be able to separate crime prevention advocacy from crime victim counselling, from crime victim criticism. These three actions are SEPARATE and only the last of these is negative.

Mequa said:

I am somewhat divided on this issue.

On the one hand I can see the philosophical difference between genuine victim blaming and exhortations to prudence. The latter do not in themselves absolve the perpetrator of guilt or shift the blame onto the victim.

On the other, I can see how unsolicited advice can be much less than helpful, to say the least.

Click to expand...

It's very simple imo.
There are three easily recognisable actions.
1. Crime prevention and Health-Safety advice. If, for instance, a magazine journalist wants to write about 'ways to reduce risk' ..... how could this be bad? It's a service to the community!
2. Crime victim counselling. If a trained counselor can help to rebuild some confidence into a victim..... how can this be bad?
3. If a numskull wants to ridicule a person for becoming a crime victim....... how can this be good?

Easy? Easy!

oldbadger said:

Yes....... anybody who advocates crime prevention and reduction cannot be all bad.
I notice that some members are rape victim advocates, which is good, but crime prevention advocates must have equal recognition.
Some people don't seem to be able to separate crime prevention advocacy from crime victim counselling, from crime victim criticism. These three actions are SEPARATE and only the last of these is negative.

Click to expand...

Some conflict appears to arise from the old sympathy vs solutions approach.
Looking for Sympathy? Want Some Advice? | Psychology Today
Other people can be hard to understand.
Some people are inexplicably friendly to me, while others are frosty.
(I spend a lot of time in slack jawed confusion at people's reactions.)

Revoltingest said:

The only thing you're victimized by here is your own over-active persecution fantasy life.
It just isn't about you or staff.

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So being a rape survivor, witnessing cases of sexual harassment first-hand, and helping other rape survivors all amounts to nothing more than a "persecution fantasy life"?

Wow. Now I have seen it all on this forum. Just when I thought the anti-feminists had run out of rhetoric and accusations to throw on feminism and feminists.

Debater Slayer said:

So being a rape survivor, witnessing cases of sexual harassment first-hand, and helping other rape survivors all amounts to nothing more than a "persecution fantasy life"?

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You're substituting things which I don't criticize for things which I do.
I presume you're honest, but just misunderstand.
You might re-read my posts carefully & with an open mind.

Wow. Now I have seen it all on this forum. Just when I thought the anti-feminists had run out of rhetoric and accusations to throw on feminism and feminists.

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I won't do a flame war with you two.
But if you're up for a discussion of issues, or even just clarification of my views, I'll do that.
For example....
Instead of telling me how I view feminism, you might ask me about it.
Or you could take exception to something I posted specifically about it.

Debater Slayer said:

So being a rape survivor, witnessing cases of sexual harassment first-hand, and helping other rape survivors all amounts to nothing more than a "persecution fantasy life"?

Wow. Now I have seen it all on this forum. Just when I thought the anti-feminists hapopulation respectively.of rhetoric and accusations to throw on feminism and feminists.

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When you actually do the math, and I've done it and showed work in other threads, it appears 'persecution fantasy life' is an apt description. For example, epidemic of women being raped that we hear about doesn't seem so epidemic like when compared with male rape statistics. It's 10 and 8 percent of the total population.
And the one where women need to be in constant fear of strange men in parking lots? Yeah, only 3% of the male population will rape someone they don't know, and that's only if we assume serial rapists don't exist so the actual number is probably much lower.

Anecdotal evidence has its place but math trumps it every time.

freethinker44 said:

When you actually do the math, and I've done it and showed work in other threads, it appears 'persecution fantasy life' is an apt description. For example, epidemic of women being raped that we hear about doesn't seem so epidemic like when compared with male rape statistics. It's 10 and 8 percent of the total population.
And the one where women need to be in constant fear of strange men in parking lots? Yeah, only 3% of the male population will rape someone they don't know, and that's only if we assume serial rapists don't exist so the actual number is probably much lower.

Anecdotal evidence has its place but math trumps it every time.

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I must state that the underlined description applies to a singular accusation directed at me.
(It shouldn't be generalized to anyone else's claims of harm in other circumstances.)

I'm in a unique position to know for a fact that this serious & very offensive charge is wrong.
To imagine that I'm Charles Boyer, "gaslighting" an Ingrid Bergman does indeed require flight from reality.

These are simply arguments on an internet forum....a difference of opinion should make no one feel a victim.
I say what I believe, as should we all.
If one cannot endure this, then tis best to place me on <ignore>.

Revoltingest said:

I must state that the underlined description applies to a singular accusation directed at me.
(It shouldn't be generalized to anyone else's claims of harm in other circumstances.)
I'm in a unique position to know for certain that this serious charge is wrong.
To imagine that I'm Charles Boyer, "gaslighting" an Ingrid Bergman does indeed require flight from reality.

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I know, it's just coincidental that it applies in a general sense as well.

I'll try to stay out of a personal argument though, however public it may be.

freethinker44 said:

I know, it's just coincidental that it applies in a general sense as well.
I'll try to stay out of a personal argument though, however public it may be.

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Thanx....I'd like the thread to be about issues.
Perhaps this derailment's end is nigh.

In light of this, I do wonder about some of the claims of threats made over the internet & in the workplace.
How many are simply incorrect inferences?
A better understanding of the benign nature of argumentation might spare some people from mistaken suffering.
And I do try to phrase things for maximum clarity & minimum potential for insult when issues are contentious.
(Long learning curve on that.)

An article I thought might be relevant to this thread:

Social Justice Bullies: The Authoritarianism of Millennial Social Justice — Medium

Mequa said:

An article I thought might be relevant to this thread:

Social Justice Bullies: The Authoritarianism of Millennial Social Justice — Medium

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I saw this several weeks ago and thought it might deserve its own thread on RF.

Apex said:

I saw this several weeks ago and thought it might deserve its own thread on RF.

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You're welcome to do that.

As for me, I'll stay out of the firing line of the "social justice bullies", thankie. I've taken enough heat from those types myself to resign myself to a quiet life and let others do the dirty work of fighting their hypocritical bigotry. I'll be tending to my own garden.