Jesus is under subjection to God.

sojourner · May 9, 2015

Muffled said:
I believe there are not two people but only one person. For instance if Ihave had ten previous lives that would mean ten persons but I consider myself only one person in ten bodies. The Spirit of God is one person in and out of the body. Now if God has multiple physical manifestations then one can see God as multiple persons and that probably is the case with the Paraclete more or less.

Again, the orthodox view is that God is available in there Persons.

.kaleb · May 9, 2015

Muffled said:
I beleve Jesus is like us in having a physical body and a spirit. He is different from us because His spirit is the Spirit of God. I haven't seen direct proof that angels are spirits only but there does seem to be plenty of evidence that angels inhabit physical bodies. There is absolutely no evidence that Jesus is an angel.

It matters not because Jesus has the Spirit of God in Him He is in the spiritual kingdom and King of it.

Yes Jesus is king of the kingdom in the heavens.
But as 1 Corinthians 15:50 clearly shows, "flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of the heavens", so how can Jesus have a physical body?

In answer to whether angels are spirits, consider Hebrews 1:13,14 (King James Version) But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool? Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?

Mountain_Climber · May 9, 2015

Moorea944 said in post 259 said:
Sorry for the long post, but we ARE born with a sin nature. And yes, I can prove it. IT's all in the bible.

If one does not believe they could prove it, one would not believe it. So let's go with that and find out.

Moorea944 said in post 259 said:
All men are mortal, dying creatures because they inherit from Adam a nature that is mortal and also prone to sin. This is not a crime and for it men are not guilty. In time, however, all men do sin and become guilty before God. Because all men are descendents of Adam, he is therefore a "federal head".

Romans 5v12 "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:"
1 Cor 15v21-22 "For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive."

That is a near perfect comment on that scripture as long as you realize that it was not the risen Jesus in his spirit body but Jesus the man who took over Adam's headship to us. The risen Jesus returned to his first estate where he was always the prince over all of God's creation. In heaven Jesus was even Adam's head, for it was the Father's good pleasure to make all things to exist by him and in him, meaning all things both in heaven and upon earth or whatever other planet. Colossians 1:17 “and he is before all things, and in him all things consist.” The only exception to that is found at 1 Corinthians 15:27.

Moorea944 said in post 259 said:
Jesus had the same nature that he got from his mother. He was like us. Hebrews 2v14 "Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;"
Romans 8v3 "For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:"

Here you begin confusing yourself. You should be able to understand what the following means and how it relates to what you there said:

Romans 10:2-3 “For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.”

You place the blame for sin on the flesh but the Bible places the blame on a lack of understanding (lack of epignosis of God's righteousness). You have not understood that to have Christ's spirit in us means to have his mind on matters be the controlling factor of our minds: 1 Corinthians 2:16 “For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.”

Ephesians 4:23 And “be renewed in the spirit of your mind”

Philippians 2:5 “Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus..”

Colossians 3:10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him..”

Why was the flesh weak? Because the flesh cannot think for itself, it was never designed to do so. The flesh only feels and senses needs for it's comfort. And that is not a defect.

Romans 8:5 For they that are [fixated with their minds] after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are [fixated with their minds] after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it [a carnally fixated mind] is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are [fixated with their minds] in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But ye are not [fixated with your minds] in the flesh, but [fixated with your minds] in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ [in him], he is none of his.

There is really only possible way for what is meant by the part which says, “if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.”

In the first half the Greek plural pronoun there translated, “you”, definitely means, “in or among you” as the group or temple of God.

In the second part it is referencing the singular singular Greek pronouns for, “man” and “him”, and so it definitely means having Christ's attitude in our self as to how Christ used his mind, always staying focused on God's Spirit even as I showed above when speaking about Romans 10:2-3 and citing 1 Corinthians 2:16; Ephesians 4:23; Philippians 2:5; and Colossians 3:10.

Christ modeled the spirit of what it means to stay focused on the Father and we must have that mind in us rather than that old carnal mind which was fixated in and upon the flesh.

Moorea944 said in post 259 said:
Jesus did not sin, because God was working through His son. (Acts 2). Sonship did not make him sinless, but made sinlessness possible. "Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise. For the Father loveth the Son, and showeth him all things that himself doeth: and he will show him greater works than these, that ye may marvel."

Notice how instead of using Jesus as his example of one who is subject to passions as we, James used Elijah: James 5:17 “Elijah was a man subject to like passions as we are, and he prayed earnestly that it might not rain: and it rained not on the earth by the space of three years and six months.”

Elijah was one who lacked that knowledge of God's righteousness which Christ didn't lack. That is why James alluded to Elijah rather than to Jesus to find such an example as would have meaning to impact his listeners.

Moorea944 said in post 259 said:
The mistake that you made on your post was that it is often made in reference to the principle of sin in the flesh is that guilt must be assigned wherever there is sin. That is a huge mistake. There are two categories of sin. Sin itself is simply the absence of righteousness (1 John 5:17). The two categories of sin are the transgressions of divine law (which does assign personal guilt) and sin nature (which assigns no guilt whatsoever). This is because of the divine judgment of death in Eden for that first sin. That was a judgment of death nature, not immediate execution. Mankind was degraded from a non-dying (but obviously not immortal) nature into a guaranteed dying nature (mortality). At that time the serpent philosophy that they chose over God's right-ness, became an active force in them... which is why temptations issue from within us. We don't need a serpent to tempt us anymore, because of our serpent nature. This is why Jesus was depicted as the bronze serpent that saved the Israelites from a horrible death from the venom of the sand viper in the wilderness (Num 21:9; John 3:14-15).

When you say, “The mistake that you made on your post was that it is often made in reference to the principle of sin in the flesh is that guilt must be assigned wherever there is sin”, I am not exactly sure what you are referring to.

But I do know that where there is no law there is no guilt:Romans 5:13 “(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.”

If you would think about it, that disproves what you go onto say:

You say, “There are two categories of sin. Sin itself is simply the absence of righteousness”?

You are wrong, for sin is the presence of the violation of righteousness. 1 John 3:4 “Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.”

Moorea944 said in post 259 said:
The signature doctrine of the antichrist system was prophesied to be the denial of the "flesh" of Christ (1 John 4:3, 2 Jn vs 7). That "flesh" of Christ is massively significant. This is why the memorial bread (broken before ingesting) represents that "flesh" of Christ and the temple veil torn from heaven to earth exactly at the point of the death of Jesus represents the "flesh" of Christ (Heb. 10:19-20). That "flesh" of Christ was where sin resided, prompting the temptations he endured but without failure (Heb. 4:15). Jesus was "made sin" at his birth. Because Jesus never allowed sin to "conceive" from the guilt free temptation stage into the guilt assignment of transgressional sin, he condemned that sin in his flesh through his voluntary death by crucifixion. This act declared God was "right" to demand death for sin. The death of Jesus declared the righteousness of his Father, just as the baptism of Jesus (projecting his death and resurrection) declared the righteousness of his Father (Matt 3:14-15).

So you see, we do have a sin nature. We are prone to sin. Jesus had the same nature as us, but did not sin. He "had to be like us" to conquer sin in the flesh.

You say, “Jesus was "made sin" at his birth.”

You are not far away from becoming like those who claim Adam was created with sin already in him.

Temptations come of external causes like the Serpent which externally influence Eve.

Any external temptation which one would allow to mesmerize their mind to focus away from God's spiritual law and become carnally fixated in and on the flesh can produce inordinate lusts and that is why James' formula was to nip that in the bud.

What you don't know is getting you deeper and deeper into a trap by the little you do know. That is exactly what Romans 10:2-3 references.

moorea944 · May 9, 2015

If one does not believe they could prove it, one would not believe it. So let's go with that and find out.

I just did prove it.... But, it doesnt go with what you are told in your church, so that means I will always be wrong... to you...
This is your version of it. It is what YOU think it is. We will never agree, but that's fine with me.

"Having a mind of Christ" I know what that means. we have to have a mind of Christ. But we still sin. That's my point. Everyone sins. The problem with your views is that your trying to make an excuse for us, that we dont sin? I think, not really sure what your saying here..... differnt from the bible.

You are wrong, for sin is the presence of the violation of righteousness. 1 John 3:4 “Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.”

Yes, I know what it means.....

You say, “Jesus was "made sin" at his birth.”
You are not far away from becoming like those who claim Adam was created with sin already in him.

You not understanding then what I'm saying. "made sin" is talking about his nature. It was like ours. I can show you the verses again if you would like..... Plus, I dont think at all Adam was created with sin really in him..... do you?

What you don't know is getting you deeper and deeper into a trap by the little you do know. That is exactly what Romans 10:2-3 references.

Shouldnt I be saying that to you?......

Mountain_Climber · May 10, 2015

moorea944 said:
"Having a mind of Christ" I know what that means. we have to have a mind of Christ. But we still sin. That's my point. Everyone sins. The problem with your views is that your trying to make an excuse for us, that we don't sin? I think, not really sure what your saying here..... different from the bible.

We only lust when we allow sin to reign in our body: Romans 6:12 "Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof."

Now, if we can disallow sin to reign in our body then sin cannot be our true nature. It is more a matter of what Paul told you, if you are willing to believe him: Romans 6:16 "Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?"

Thus Paul makes it is a matter of the choices you make in your heart. You choose who and what you desire serve.

Paul is the main one you claim teaches the inherited sin nature and yet he is telling you that you have the responsibility to not allow sin to reign in your body. Paul says that you don't have to let sin reign in your body but you say, "we have to have a mind of Christ. But we still sin. That's my point. Everyone sins."

John tells you: 1 John 3:8 "He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil."

John tells you: 1 John 3:9 "Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God."

And you say I am the one making excuses?

Mountain_Climber · May 10, 2015

Just as an additional perspective as to what Paul had in mind there at Romans 6:12, consider his words against Genesis 6:5-6 "And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart."

Is it any wonder that over and over again the Bible speaks of our corrupting ourselves after we were born, by how we think and use our imaginations?

Exodus 32:7 "And the LORD said unto Moses, Go, get thee down; for thy people, which thou broughtest out of the land of Egypt, have corrupted themselves:"

Deuteronomy 9:12 "And the LORD said unto me, Arise, get thee down quickly from hence; for thy people which thou hast brought forth out of Egypt have corrupted themselves; they are quickly turned aside out of the way which I commanded them; they have made them a molten image."

Deuteronomy 32:5 "They have corrupted themselves, their spot is not the spot of his children: they are a perverse and crooked generation."

Judges 2:19 "And it came to pass, when the judge was dead, that they returned, and corrupted themselves more than their fathers, in following other gods to serve them, and to bow down unto them; they ceased not from their own doings, nor from their stubborn way."

moorea944 · May 10, 2015

Mountain_Climber said:
We only lust when we allow sin to reign in our body: Romans 6:12 "Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof."

Now, if we can disallow sin to reign in our body then sin cannot be our true nature. It is more a matter of what Paul told you, if you are willing to believe him: Romans 6:16 "Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?"

Thus Paul makes it is a matter of the choices you make in your heart. You choose who and what you desire serve.

Paul is the main one you claim teaches the inherited sin nature and yet he is telling you that you have the responsibility to not allow sin to reign in your body. Paul says that you don't have to let sin reign in your body but you say, "we have to have a mind of Christ. But we still sin. That's my point. Everyone sins."

John tells you: 1 John 3:8 "He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil."

John tells you: 1 John 3:9 "Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God."

And you say I am the one making excuses?

Are you saying then that YOU dont sin? Everyone sins. 1 John is talking about people who sin continually, over and over again. We all sin, even you.

Mountain_Climber · May 10, 2015

moorea944 said:
Are you saying then that YOU dont sin? Everyone sins. 1 John is talking about people who sin continually, over and over again. We all sin, even you.

1 John 3:8-9 is talking exactly about who John said he was talking, "Whosoever is born of God."

In other words, "Whosoever [really] is born of God."

You have gotten away with that sloppy interpretation of what John said by the common twisting today of what he said at 1 John 1:8.

John is speaking to the newbie babes who have come to Christ but not yet matured into Christ. He is telling them: 1 John 1:2-3 "(For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us

That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ."

In other words, there at 1 John 1:2 he is telling these ones who yet sin because they who have just newly approached Christ that they can trust in Christ for eternal life and come to have that fellowship they see John and the mature in Christ who no longer sin, have.

He then tells them essentially, "you know that God is light and he won't allow any darkness in him":

1 John 1:5-6 "This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:"

1 John 1:7 "But if we [actually do] walk in the light, as he is in the light, [then] we have fellowship one with another, and [then] the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin."

1 John 1:8, as all of this chapter, is being said to these newbies to Christ (1Jn 1:3)> "that ye also may have fellowship with us", and 1 John 1:8 literally reads: "If ever we should say that sin we are not having ourselves [to repent of], we are making an error, and the truth is not in us."

By direct contrast he tells these newbies, " 1John 1:9 "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."

When you continue your sinning you are not letting Christ cleanse you from, quote, "all unrighteousness."

He then tells these newbies to Christ (1Jn 1:3)> "that ye also may have fellowship with us", 1 John 1:10 "If we say that we have not sinned [so we don't need to repent anything], we make him a liar, and his word is not in us."

That clearly all applies to those newbies to Christ and chapter 2 begins yet in the same theme but showing that there is enough mercy in Christ that they can take a little time to mature in Christ so long as they are really trying and not sinning by choice. This thought compares to what Paul said, here: 1 Timothy 1:12-13 "And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry; Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief."

1 John 2:1-2 "My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And<[or, But] if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world."

So unless you are advocating remaining a babe, thinking that Christ will excuse you from having to grow on to maturity rather than him seeing that such a one simply lacks love for him like he said at John 14:21-24, then you go right ahead and keep ignoring what John said next:

1 John 2:3 "And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him."

Now compare:
John 14:21, 23, 24 "He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him. ........ Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me."

Romans 6:2-3 "God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?"

So you see how ones continuing to sin eventually makes them out a liar? They very clearly could not have been baptized into his death if they are yet living and sinning.

We need to be very grateful that his mercy is great enough to cover us in the beginning, before we have reached maturity and are actually solidly in Christ. And we should be progressing to have all sin gone from our walk. That is how the Body of Christ wins the victory over sin: Romans 6:6 "Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin."

So believe what ever you want to believe at your own risk. Romans 12:1 "I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service."

Just keep telling yourself that you are unable to completely obey that counsel Paul there gave at Romans 12:1.

I believe it to be better to listen and actually hear what is said than to rationalize it away as your idea does.

paarsurrey · May 10, 2015

Sculelos said:
He is the physical part of God

G-d is not a physical being so Jesus cannot be His physical part.
It is a wrong notion.

Regards

moorea944 · May 10, 2015

Mountain_Climber said:
1 John 3:8-9 is talking exactly about who John said he was talking, "Whosoever is born of God."

In other words, "Whosoever [really] is born of God."

You have gotten away with that sloppy interpretation of what John said by the common twisting today of what he said at 1 John 1:8.

John is speaking to the newbie babes who have come to Christ but not yet matured into Christ. He is telling them: 1 John 1:2-3 "(For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ."

In other words, there at 1 John 1:2 he is telling these ones who yet sin because they who have just newly approached Christ that they can trust in Christ for eternal life and come to have that fellowship they see John and the mature in Christ who no longer sin, have.

He then tells them essentially, "you know that God is light and he won't allow any darkness in him":

1 John 1:5-6 "This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:"

1 John 1:7 "But if we [actually do] walk in the light, as he is in the light, [then] we have fellowship one with another, and [then] the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin."

1 John 1:8, as all of this chapter, is being said to these newbies to Christ (1Jn 1:3)> "that ye also may have fellowship with us", and 1 John 1:8 literally reads: "If ever we should say that sin we are not having ourselves [to repent of], we are making an error, and the truth is not in us."

By direct contrast he tells these newbies, " 1John 1:9 "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."

When you continue your sinning you are not letting Christ cleanse you from, quote, "all unrighteousness."

He then tells these newbies to Christ (1Jn 1:3)> "that ye also may have fellowship with us", 1 John 1:10 "If we say that we have not sinned [so we don't need to repent anything], we make him a liar, and his word is not in us."

That clearly all applies to those newbies to Christ and chapter 2 begins yet in the same theme but showing that there is enough mercy in Christ that they can take a little time to mature in Christ so long as they are really trying and not sinning by choice. This thought compares to what Paul said, here: 1 Timothy 1:12-13 "And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry; Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief."

1 John 2:1-2 "My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And<[or, But] if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world."

So unless you are advocating remaining a babe, thinking that Christ will excuse you from having to grow on to maturity rather than him seeing that such a one simply lacks love for him like he said at John 14:21-24, then you go right ahead and keep ignoring what John said next:

1 John 2:3 "And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him."

Now compare:
John 14:21, 23, 24 "He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him. ........ Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me."

Romans 6:2-3 "God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?"

So you see how ones continuing to sin eventually makes them out a liar? They very clearly could not have been baptized into his death if they are yet living and sinning.

We need to be very grateful that his mercy is great enough to cover us in the beginning, before we have reached maturity and are actually solidly in Christ. And we should be progressing to have all sin gone from our walk. That is how the Body of Christ wins the victory over sin: Romans 6:6 "Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin."

So believe what ever you want to believe at your own risk. Romans 12:1 "I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service."

Just keep telling yourself that you are unable to completely obey that counsel Paul there gave at Romans 12:1.

I believe it to be better to listen and actually hear what is said than to rationalize it away as your idea does.

It's almost like you dont really read. You just look at the things you want to "fit in" with your believes. But anyhow......

kjv4me2you · May 11, 2015

Jesus was the First and Last Adam.

willyah

Mountain_Climber · May 11, 2015

moorea944 said:
It's almost like you dont really read. You just look at the things you want to "fit in" with your believes. But anyhow......

Is that the best you've got?

Desert Snake · May 11, 2015

paarsurrey said:
G-d is not a physical being so Jesus cannot be His physical part.
It is a wrong notion.

Regards

That's great, however that would cause various problems for much of Xian thought and perspective, beliefs. Your idea is common, but then people have sort of a demi-god, middleman, between the father, and people; it's very odd, imo.
But, whatever.

Mountain_Climber · May 11, 2015

moorea944 said:
It's almost like you dont really read. You just look at the things you want to "fit in" with your believes. But anyhow......

Jehovah's Witnesses are in denial of this matter perhaps even more intensely than most people are. And this is clearly evidenced by how they add their own thoughts to the translation of the text. So I will use their Bibles and their references to show you where they err.

We must capture the whole thought as trying to develop an understanding from pieces of the thought in isolation is a dangerous practice. The thought begins at 1 John 3:3 and continues to at least 1 John 3:10.

We must make certain we keep all of the thoughts complimentary as expressed in verses 3-10. We will do that by asking questions. For example: Is John telling us that it is not a big thing that we sin just once in a great while? If he where telling us that then he would also have to be saying that it is not such a big thing if we once in a great while we don't love our brother, as spoken of in verse 10 and from there forward. If our thoughts are to be consistent, they must stay consistent throughout the entire thought.

<><><><>

Note carefully that the thought begins in verse 3 with the person purifying their own self, not with allowance for sin, but “just as that one is pure”:

1 John 3: 3 “And everyone who has this hope in him purifies himself, (2Co 7:1) just as that one is pure.” {2013 NWT}

Now think about that carefully; As the thought is about purifying our self, which means growing progressively cleaner, John cannot be telling us that we are OK so long as we don't make a practice of sinning. Rather, he must be telling us that we must be committed to the elimination of sin out of our life. Otherwise it makes a joke out of the thought of purifying ourselves, “just as that one is pure.” One bathes their self to become clean, not partly clean. And “just as that one is pure” leaves no allowance for sin. Any sin is like the sow returning to roll in it's mire, matter not in how small a way. It is yet not being pure “just as that one is pure.” 2Co 7:1 is only applicable to immature babes like those John began speaking to in chapter 1, saying to them, “that you too may have fellowship [Or “a sharing.”] with us.”

<><><><>

Your organizations tend to make it about the mere practice of sin, yet knowing that even one sin violates the entire law. James 2:10 “For if anyone obeys all the Law but makes a false step in one point, he has become an offender against all of it.”

Do you not see that you are stumbling babes who believe you and so think to themselves that the issue is just to do the best you can? That is not the issue! The issue is that you must be holy because he is holy.:

1st Peter 1: 14-16
14 “As obedient children, stop being molded by the desires you formerly had in your ignorance,
15 but like the Holy One who called you, become holy yourselves in all your conduct,
16 for it is written: “You must be holy, because I am holy.”

Do you imagine John spoke against that?

Notice in verse 4 how the NWT steps away from the singularity of that thought John expressed in verse 3, to purify ourselves “just as that one is pure”:

1 John 3: 4 “Everyone who practices sin is also practicing lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness.” {2013 NWT}

The very next verse, verse 5, relates this comment in verse 4 back to Jesus. Are you claiming Jesus simply did not make it a practice to sin?

1 John 3: 5 “You know, too, that he was made manifest to take away our sins, (Le 16:21, 22; Isa 53:11; Joh 1:29) and there is no sin in him.” {2013 NWT}

It is appalling what the NWT is doing, adding textual references to make themselves appear credible while violating the heart of the thought of the context through their ill choice of words, like, “practice.”

This venue Jehovah's Witnesses are proffering, claiming that we can have union with him so long as we don't make it a practice to sin, totally violates the thought of our need to purify ourselves as he is pure, meaning reaching that point of maturity where we no longer sin just as there is no sin in him.

Worse, even if they do not intend for it to do so, the way they have worded it misleads people to take it easy on themselves, blinding them from what John was really telling them.

Now all things are being brought back to God in Christ, but not you if you yet sin, for there is no sin in him and neither can there be. Is a blemished sacrifice holy? Read: Hebrews 12:14; Romans 12:1; 1st Peter 1: 14-16; and 1st John 2:28-29

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Just look at how the way the NWT has worded verses 6 and 7 throws them into conflict with each other:

1 John 3: 6-7 “Everyone remaining in union with him does not practice sin; (Ro 6:12) no one who practices sin has either seen him or come to know him. Little children, let no one mislead you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as that one is righteous.” {2013 NWT}

Are they saying that Jesus merely didn't practice sin? The babe reads it as saying that he or she is OK so long as they have not made it a practice to sin. Where has the thought of being holy as he is holy gone in that idea?

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Look at verse 8. Are they out of their minds, presenting it as though it is only the practice of sin that is from the devil? If not for the devil there would be no sin. Any sin is of the devil. And you cannot take of the table of Jehovah and the table of the devil, too, matter not what quantities you pick and choose to do it in. Even on sin is like sacrificing Christ afresh. One violation of the law breaks the entire law. And that must be kept in focus lest we lull many to sleep under a false pretense of believing they are secure so long as they have not a pattern of practicing sin.
1 John 3: 8 “The one who practices sin originates with the Devil, because the Devil has been sinning from the beginning [Or “from when he began.”]. (Ge 3:14; Joh 8:44) For this purpose the Son of God was made manifest, to break up [Or “destroy.”] the works of the Devil. (Joh 16:33; Heb 2:14)” {2013 NWT}

What is literally said there? “The [one] doing the sin<[singular number, accusative case, feminine gender] out of the devil he is, because from beginning the devil is sinning. Into this was manifested the Son of God in order that he might loose the works of the devil.”

You said I read into the scriptures? Do you see the word practice anywhere in that? Nor will you in the rest of those verses. But this idea that we are OK so long as we do not practice sin is an ear tickling idea. It speaks to what many would rather hear. And whether or not that is what Jehovah's Witnesses intended, that is how the affect their wording of this text has.

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Notice that though the word practice is not here wither as regards to practicing righteousness,

1 John 3: 9 “Everyone who has been born from God does not practice sin, (1Jo 5:18) for His seed [That is, seed capable of reproducing, or bearing fruit] remains in such one, and he cannot practice sin, for he has been born from God. (1Pe 1:23)” {2013 NWT}

Now, their footnote as I showed there, “[That is, seed capable of reproducing, or bearing fruit]”, is correct. I have long seen that is the same seed as sown to man's hearts in Matthew 13:19 and 1st Corinthians 3:6.

But we run into a dilemma if we think that allows for us to continue to have occasional sins with no manifest progress toward that being holy as he is holy. See: 2 Timothy 2:4-5; and:

Romans 12: 1-2, 9
1 “Therefore, I appeal to you by the compassions of God, brothers, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, a sacred service with your power of reason.
2 And stop being molded by this system of things, but be transformed by making your mind over, l so that you may prove to yourselves m the good and acceptable and perfect will of God. ….......
…...... 9 Let your love be without hypocrisy. Abhor what is wicked; cling to what is good.”

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1 John 3: 10 “The children of God and the children of the Devil are evident by this fact: Whoever does not practice righteousness does not originate with God, nor does the one who does not love his brother. (1Jo 4:8)” {2013 NWT}

Revelation 3:16 “So because you are lukewarm and neither hot nor cold, I am going to vomit you out of my mouth.”

Is there really any room for even a singular sin? Is not every single sin we commit like an open door to the devil? How many sins by Adam and Eve did it require to get this world trapped into the devil and his ways?

moorea944 · May 11, 2015

Mountain_Climber said:
Jehovah's Witnesses are in denial of this matter perhaps even more intensely than most people are. And this is clearly evidenced by how they add their own thoughts to the translation of the text. So I will use their Bibles and their references to show you where they err.

You can if you want to, but I'm not JW.

Mountain_Climber · May 12, 2015

moorea944 said:
You can if you want to, but I'm not JW.

Well, LOL, that is my brain for you. I for some reason thought you were.

Truly, there has to be a power helping me to think or I would not be capable at all.

paarsurrey · May 12, 2015

paarsurrey said: ↑
G-d is not a physical being so Jesus cannot be His physical part.
It is a wrong notion.

disciple said:
That's great, however that would cause various problems for much of Xian thought and perspective, beliefs.

But that will make the Christian closer to what Jesus was and to his teachings.

Regards

Mountain_Climber · May 12, 2015

Sculelos said:
Jesus is not infinite. He is the physical part of God the finite part of God, but he is not the invisible infinite part. Jesus is less then God. God is greater then Jesus, Jesus said this himself.

Some Biblical support.

Hebrews Chapter 1

God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high: Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son? And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him. And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire. But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows. And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands: They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment; And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail. But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool? Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?

John 14:28
28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

Matthew 19:17
And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

1 Corinthians 15:14-28
And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain. Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not. For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable. But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the first fruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the first fruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

As I see it, the entire problem arises from us not being able to grasp two important scriptural concepts to push our interpretations up and off of:

(1) Nothing can exist but that it be a part of and maintained of the only thing that is eternal, that being God. Proof as acknowledged by Paul: speaking to unbelievers, Paul acknowledged, "For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring. Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device." (Acts 17: 28-29)

Weymouth words Hebrews 11:3, "Through faith we understand that the worlds came into being, and still exist, at the command of God, so that what is seen does not owe its existence to that which is visible."

And indeed if nothing existed but God before all beginnings, then God literally gave of himself to make and hold into existence all He began.

The question then is, 'Did God have a beginning as a Father?' We know he did not have a beginning as God, but, 'Did God have a beginning as a Father?'

I say yes, God did have a beginning as a Father and that beginning in which He became a Father was with the producing of his Son, who we eventually came to know by the transfer into the physical of that Son, where we came to call him, Jesus.

Now Jesus in the flesh was also the picture to us in the flesh of what Adam was to be as a faithful son of God. (Luke 3:38) Which leads me to point number two.

(2) The physical design of all things reflects a story to all of God's thinking creatures, telling us of God's glory and in that since are an image of the person of God: "The heavens declare the glory of God; And the firmament showeth his handiwork. Day unto day uttereth speech, And night unto night showeth knowledge. There is no speech nor language; Their voice is not heard." (Psalms 19:1-3)

This is one good reason why God was not pleased with man making images of those images to worship, robbing their minds away from the one to whom these things pointed and making the created thing the object of reverence, instead of the God who created those things: "for that they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshipped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen." (Romans 1:25); "Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, and changed the glory of the incorruptible God for the likeness of an image of corruptible man, and of birds, and four-footed beasts, and creeping things." (Romans 1:22-23)

The entire paradise earth was purposed of God to be a tribute to God as a working image in the likeness of God's heavenly kingdom.

Adam was the likeness of God's heavenly Son who was the first thing God became a Father to that imaged Him, and thus Adam was created the physical image of God, even as that heavenly Son was began as the image of God. Both Sons, the heavenly Son who imaged God and the physical Son who imaged God, had a beginning.

John 1:1 In the beginning [not before the beginning] was the Word, and the Word was with God [as the Word was the perfect image and likeness of God just as Adam was originally created and could be with God in the paradise], and the Word was God [for the Word did absolutely nothing that was not given him to do of God, even as Adam was supposed to do absolutely nothing but what was given him of God to do].

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We have these arguments, both sides of which fail in the above understanding, making it impossible for us to understand what Paul really meant when he said things, as, "God giveth it a body even as it pleased him, and to each seed a body of its own", where Paul's point is that we are not created images of the images with their glory, but God instead creates us in his image and shines his glory in us and through us as it pleases Him. (Added: This is really what 1 Corinthians chapter 12 is about.)

1 John 3:2 "Beloved, now are we children of God, and it is not yet made manifest what we shall be. We know that, if he shall be manifested, we shall be like him; for we shall see him even as he is."

This is why at 1 Corinthians 15 Paul was in effect asking these doubters, "Where is your faith?"

1 Corinthians 15:11-12 "Whether then it be I or they, so we preach, and so ye believed. Now if Christ is preached that he hath been raised from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?"

paarsurrey · May 12, 2015

disciple said:
that would cause various problems for much of Xian thought and perspective, beliefs.

Rather much of the problems of Christians will start getting solved.

Regards

melk · May 15, 2015

.kaleb said:
Yes Jesus is king of the kingdom in the heavens.

Agreed. God has given him authority to rule the world above all other creatures. Through him, all things will be reunited with the Father. That is why, even not worshiping, I belive we must bend to him and call him to our lives.
By the way, missing your posts and @Kolibri ' s

Jesus is under subjection to God.

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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christian open minded