God in mormonism

I´ve learned following from: What is Mormonism? What do Mormons believe?

"Mormons believe the following about God: He has not always been the Supreme Being of the universe (Mormon Doctrine, p. 321) but attained that status through righteous living and persistent effort (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 345). They believe God the Father has a “body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s” (Doctrine and Covenants130:22). Brigham Young taught that Adam actually was God and the father of Jesus Christ—although this teaching has been abandoned by modern Mormon leaders.

In contrast, Christians know this about God: there is only one true God (Deuteronomy 6:4; Isaiah 43:10; 44:6–8). He always has existed and always will exist (Deuteronomy 33:27; Psalm 90:2; 1 Timothy 1:17). He was not created but is the Creator (Genesis 1; Psalm 24:1; Isaiah 37:16). He is perfect, and no one else is equal to Him (Psalm 86:8; Isaiah 40:25). God the Father is not a man, nor was He ever (Numbers 23:19; 1 Samuel 15:29; Hosea 11:9). He is Spirit (John 4:24), and Spirit is not made of flesh and bone (Luke 24:39).

Mormons believe that there are different levels or kingdoms in the afterlife: the celestial kingdom, the terrestrial kingdom, the telestial kingdom, and outer darkness (Mormon Doctrine, p. 348). Where mankind will end up depends on what they believe and do in this life (2 Nephi 25:23; Articles of Faith, p.79).

In contrast, the Bible tells us that after death we go to heaven or hell based on whether or not we had faith in Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior. To be absent from our bodies means, as believers, we are with the Lord (2 Corinthians 5:6–8). Unbelievers are sent to hell or the place of the dead (Luke 16:22–23). When Jesus comes the second time, we will receive new bodies (1 Corinthians 15:50–54). There will be a new heaven and new earth for believers (Revelation 21:1), and unbelievers will be thrown into an everlasting lake of fire (Revelation 20:11–15). There is no second chance for redemption after death (Hebrews 9:27).

Mormon leaders have taught that Jesus’ incarnation was the result of a physical relationship between God the Father and Mary (Journal of Discourses, vol. 8, p. 115; Mormon Doctrine, p. 547). Mormons believe Jesus is a god, but that any human can also become a god (Doctrine and Covenants132:20; Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 345–354). Mormonism teaches that salvation can be earned by a combination of faith and good works (LDS Bible Dictionary, p. 697)."

1) Is it right that mormons dont believe in a eternal God? Is God, our Father, to be resembled with ourselves when/if we get to the celestial kingdom?
2a) Have there been other Gods before the Father of ours?
2b) Is our Father like other "people" that in other dimensions/planets have come to the celestial kingdom, and therefore can create own planets?
2c) Who is then the true God (the one who started it all)?
3a) When/if we come to the celestial kingdom: then are we on a higher spiritual state than Jesus himself, because he is on the terrestrial kingdom, and therefore doesn't live with God himself and get the opportunity to evolve himself eternally, or either create own planets?
3b) How does this work?
3c) Why doesn't Jesus live with God our father, but some of us got the opportunity to do this? Isn't Jesus bigger than us?

I only ask this questions because I doesntknow how a mormon sees these things. I hope there are understandings for that!

Hope for good answers!

Hello, Kristoffer. I'll get back to you with some answers to your questions shortly. But first of all, I have one question for you. If you wanted accurate information on Judaism, would you go to an Islamic-sponsored website for that information? You have gone to a website which exists for the purpose of discrediting Mormonism by presenting what I would call a series of half-truths and exaggerations. If you really want to understand Mormonism, a far better source would be one or the other of the Church's official sites: Mormon.org and LDS.org. But thank you for at least taking the time to verify the information you got with those of us who actually know what it is Mormonism believes and teaches. I'll be back later today with my answers.

Kristoffer said:

"Mormons believe the following about God: He has not always been the Supreme Being of the universe (Mormon Doctrine, p. 321) but attained that status through righteous living and persistent effort (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 345).

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Actually, since He designed and created (through His Son, Jesus Christ) our universe, this statement makes no sense whatsoever. We believe that God was God "in the beginning." The statements you have quoted are not doctrinal but speculative interpretations of two men. Neither of them can be found in the LDS canon, which is composed of The Holy Bible (KJV), The Book of Mormon, The Doctrine and Covenants, and The Pearl of Great Price. In order to make sense of the out-of-context statements provided by the website you quoted, we would have to get into a more lengthy discussion of "what might have been before the clock started ticking." I'm willing to do that, but you would have to understand up front that anything I might say is just a matter of opinion and not official doctrine. We have no official doctrine that states what your website is claiming.

They believe God the Father has a “body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s” (Doctrine and Covenants 130:22).

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This is true (and you will note that there is a doctrinal source for the statement -- the D&C).

Brigham Young taught that Adam actually was God and the father of Jesus Christ—although this teaching has been abandoned by modern Mormon leaders.

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During the latter half of the 19th century, Brigham Young did make some statements to this effect. Oddly enough, though, during the same time period, he also made statements to the contrary. Since no LDS Church President before or since has ever said anything of that sort, this is simply an anomaly that we are left to wonder about. It's not a matter of whether we believe what he said or not. Rather, we're left to try to figure out what he could have possibly been thinking since Mormons have always believed (and Brigham Young himself taught) that Adam conversed with God while in the Garden of Eden. We certainly don't think he was talking to himself.

In contrast, Christians know this about God: there is only one true God (Deuteronomy 6:4; Isaiah 43:10; 44:6–8). He always has existed and always will exist (Deuteronomy 33:27; Psalm 90:2; 1 Timothy 1:17). He was not created but is the Creator (Genesis 1; Psalm 24:1; Isaiah 37:16). He is perfect, and no one else is equal to Him (Psalm 86:8; Isaiah 40:25). God the Father is not a man, nor was He ever (Numbers 23:19; 1 Samuel 15:29; Hosea 11:9). He is Spirit (John 4:24), and Spirit is not made of flesh and bone (Luke 24:39).

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Basically, we believe these same things except with respect to God's physicality. We, too, believe that He is spirit, but that is merely one of His many attributes. The scriptures also describe Him as "light." So He is both spirit and light. Even so, those things are not the sum of what He is. The Greek word "pneuma" is translated in John 4:24 as "spirit." The same word, however, is translated in Revelation 13:15 as "life." So it is equally accurate to say that "God is life." He is the breath of life, the giver of life and the source of literally all life. That does not mean that His spirit cannot reside within a physical body. After all, most Christians will also tell you that Jesus Christ is God (we would agree with them on this). Well, Jesus obviously had a body of flesh and bone. So what does that mean -- that because Jesus had a body He was not God after all? Of course not. Being spirit and having a corporeal body are not mutually exclusive.

Mormons believe that there are different levels or kingdoms in the afterlife: the celestial kingdom, the terrestrial kingdom, the telestial kingdom, and outer darkness (Mormon Doctrine, p. 348). Where mankind will end up depends on what they believe and do in this life (2 Nephi 25:23; Articles of Faith, p.79).

In contrast, the Bible tells us that after death we go to heaven or hell based on whether or not we had faith in Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior.

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There is no "on contrast." The Bible is simply less specific about heaven than the additional LDS scriptures are. No, we don't see Heaven as a one-size-fits all kind of place. And why should we? Jesus Christ said that He will reward every man according to his works. I don't know how much more plainly He could have stated the fact that greater faithfulness and commitment will result in greater blessings. The varying "degrees of glory" we believe will exist in Heaven are very much in line with this concept.

In 1 Corinthians 15, Paul discusses the afterlife. In verses 40-42, he alludes to the doctrine of multiple kingdoms within Heaven when he says: “There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory. So also is the resurrection of the dead.”

We believe that the lowest of Heaven's three kingdoms can be said to have a glory like that of the stars. The middle kingdom can likewise be compared in glory to the moon. Finally, the highest degree of glory is believed to have a glory like that of the sun.

Also, in 2 Corinthians 12:2, we read: “I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven.” Here we have a very definite reference to the fact that there is more than one Heaven or that Heaven is made up of more than one part. Why would anybody believe there is a third Hheaven unless there is also a first and a second Heaven?

To be absent from our bodies means, as believers, we are with the Lord (2 Corinthians 5:6–8). Unbelievers are sent to hell or the place of the dead (Luke 16:22–23). When Jesus comes the second time, we will receive new bodies (1 Corinthians 15:50–54). There will be a new heaven and new earth for believers (Revelation 21:1), and unbelievers will be thrown into an everlasting lake of fire (Revelation 20:11–15). There is no second chance for redemption after death (Hebrews 9:27).

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Apparently billions of people who died without ever having heard the name of Jesus Christ won't even get a first chance, then. How fair is that?

During the time Jesus Christ's body lay in the tomb, He was said to have visited "the spirits in prison" and taught them His gospel. Why do you believe He would have done such a thing? Certainly not so that He could conclude by saying, "Too bad for you guys. You happened to be born at the wrong time and in the wrong place, so it's off to Hell for you!"

Mormon leaders have taught that Jesus’ incarnation was the result of a physical relationship between God the Father and Mary (Journal of Discourses, vol. 8, p. 115; Mormon Doctrine, p. 547).

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See, once again, we have quotes from non-canonical sources. Mormons believe that Mary was a virgin, both at the time of Jesus' conception and at the time of His birth. Last I checked, a woman who has had sexual relations with a man is not a virgin. We believe that God the Father is precisely that: the Father. The real Father. The literal Father. Mary was the mother. The real mother. The literal mother. How her Son's conception took place is clearly a mystery. The scriptures don't tell us anything more than that the Holy Ghost was to come upon her and the power of the Highest would overshadow her. That is what we teach. That is what we believe.

Mormons believe Jesus is a god, but that any human can also become a god (Doctrine and Covenants132:20; Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 345–354).

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Mormons actually believe that Jesus is God. The Book of Mormon clearly teaches this. He is not merely one of a myriad of like beings. He is unique. He is God the Father's Only Begotten Son. With respect to whether or not humans came become gods, I'm going to save this for an entirely separate post, as I have a feeling I'm nearing the maximum length for a single post.

Mormonism teaches that salvation can be earned by a combination of faith and good works (LDS Bible Dictionary, p. 697)."

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We believe that if we claim to be followers of Jesus Christ, we will keep His commandments, if that's what you mean. There are numerous passages of scripture that attest to the fact that our works are, in fact, very important to Him. Here are just a few:

Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

John 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

Hebrews 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him.

James 2:20-24 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

To us, these things are clear: (1) He that does the Father's will shall enter the kingdom of Heaven. (2) If we keep Christ's commandments, we'll abide in His love. (3) Jesus Christ saves those that obey Him. (4) Without the works to back it up, our faith is dead. None of these things mean that we believe we can save ourselves. There is no one who has ever lived (save Christ Himself) who is in a position to be able to do that. Without Christ, every last one of us would be lost.

1) Is it right that mormons dont believe in a eternal God? Is God, our Father, to be resembled with ourselves when/if we get to the celestial kingdom?
2a) Have there been other Gods before the Father of ours?
2b) Is our Father like other "people" that in other dimensions/planets have come to the celestial kingdom, and therefore can create own planets?
2c) Who is then the true God (the one who started it all)?
3a) When/if we come to the celestial kingdom: then are we on a higher spiritual state than Jesus himself, because he is on the terrestrial kingdom, and therefore doesn't live with God himself and get the opportunity to evolve himself eternally, or either create own planets?
3b) How does this work?
3c) Why doesn't Jesus live with God our father, but some of us got the opportunity to do this? Isn't Jesus bigger than us?

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Due to lack of space, I'm going to get back to you on these questions in a subsequent post.

I only ask this questions because I doesntknow how a mormon sees these things. I hope there are understandings for that!

Hope for good answers!

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Well thank you for asking, and I hope that between the Mormons on this site, we'll be able to give you some satisfactory answers.

Kristoffer said:

Mormons believe Jesus is a god, but that any human can also become a god (Doctrine and Covenants132:20; Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 345–354).

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The Latter-day Saints are frequently accused of believing that they can, at some point in the future, become "Gods." Understandably, to many who do not fully understand our doctrine, the mere idea is out-and-out heresy.

Before we get started, let's clear up two big, big misconceptions:

(1) We do not believe that any of us will ever be equal to God, our Eternal Father in Heaven. He will always be our God and we will always worship Him.

(2) Nothing we could possibly do on our own could exalt us to the level of deity. It is only through the will and grace of God that man is given this potential. And "with God, nothing is impossible."

We believe, as you may know, that ours is a restoration of the very Church Jesus Christ established during His ministry here on earth. It would follow, then, that we believe we are teaching the same doctrines as were taught then and accepted by Jesus’ followers. Throughout the New Testament, there are indications that this doctrine (known as deification or exaltation) is not one the Latter-day Saints invented, but that the earliest Christians understood and believed it, as well.

Romans 8:16-17, 2 Peter 1:4, Revelation 2:26-27 and Revelation 3:21 are the four I like best. Through these verses, we learn that, as children of God, we may also be His heirs, joint-heirs with Christ, even glorified with Him. We might partake of the nature of divinity and be allowed to sit with our Savior on His throne, to rule over the nations.

Now, if these promises are true (as I believe they are), what do they all boil down to? To the Latter-day Saints, they mean that we have the potential to someday, be “godlike.” One of our prophets explained that "we are gods in embryo." If our Father is divine and we are literally his "offspring", as the Bible teaches we are, is it really such a stretch of the imagination to believe that he has endowed each of us with a spark of divinity?

Finally, there is considerable evidence that the doctrine of deification was taught for quite some time after the Savior’s death, and accepted as orthodox. Some of the most well-known and respected of the early Christian Fathers made statements that were remarkably close to the statements LDS leaders have made. For example:

In the second century, Saint Irenaeus said, “If the Word became a man, it was so men may become gods.” He also posed this question: “Do we cast blame on Him (God) because we were not made gods from the beginning, but were at first created merely as men, and then later as Gods?” At about the same period of time, Saint Clement made this statement: “The Word of God became a man so that you might learn from a man how to become a god.” And Saint Justin Martyr agreed, saying that men are “deemed worthy of becoming gods and of having power to become sons of the highest.” Some two centuries later, Athanasius explained that “the Word was made flesh in order that we might be enabled to be made gods. He became man that we might be made divine.” And, finally, Augustine, said, “But He that justifies also deifies, for by justifying he makes sons of God. For he has given them power to become the sons of God. If then we have been made sons of God, we have also been made gods.”

Even the noted Christian theologian, C.S. Lewis, said much the same thing in his book "Mere Christianity."

“The command Be ye perfect is not idealistic gas. Nor is it a command to do the impossible. He is going to make us into creatures that can obey that command. He said (in the Bible) that we were “gods” and He is going to make good His words. If we let Him – for we can prevent Him, if we choose – He will make the feeblest and filthiest of us into a god or goddess, dazzling, radiant, immortal creature, pulsating all through with such energy and joy and wisdom and love as we cannot now imagine, a bright stainless mirror which reflects back to God perfectly (though, of course, on a smaller scale) His own boundless power and delight and goodness. The process will be long and in parts very painful; but that is what we are in for. Nothing less. He meant what He said."

Finally, according to The Westminster Dictionary of Christian Theology, “Deification (Greek theosis) is for Orthodoxy the goal of every Christian. Man, according to the Bible, is made in the image and likeness of God…. It is possible for man to become like God, to become deified, to become god by grace.”

So, the "Mormons" really didn't come up with this doctrine. We only restored that which had been lost for many, many years.

Kristoffer said:

1) Is it right that mormons dont believe in a eternal God?

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No, that's wrong. We absolutely do believe in God "the Eternal Father."

Is God, our Father, to be resembled with ourselves when/if we get to the celestial kingdom?

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We believe that as His spirit offspring, we have been given the potential to become like Him. I explained this more fully in my prior post.

2a) Have there been other Gods before the Father of ours?

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The Bible uses the word "god" on several occasions. Here are a few examples:

Deuteronomy 10:17 For the LORD your God is God of gods, and Lord of lords, a great God, a mighty, and a terrible, which regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward…

Joshua 22:22 The LORD God of gods, the LORD God of gods, he knoweth, and Israel he shall know; if it be in rebellion, or if in transgression against the LORD…

1 Corinthians 8:5-6 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,) But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

The Apostle Paul acknowledges the existence of others "that are called gods" and even goes so far as to say that this is the case, not only on earth but in heaven. He also makes it absolutely clear that he (and other Christians) worship only one God. That is the best explanation I can give you as to what Mormons believe.

2b) Is our Father like other "people" that in other dimensions/planets have come to the celestial kingdom, and therefore can create own planets?

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I'm sorry, but this particular question doesn't even make sense in terms of what Mormons believe. Maybe I'm just misunderstanding you, but I simply don't know what you're after.

2c) Who is then the true God (the one who started it all)?

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What do you mean by "it all"? If you're referring to our universe and everything in it, the true God is the God of Abraham, the God worshipped by all Christians as the Almighty.

3a) When/if we come to the celestial kingdom: then are we on a higher spiritual state than Jesus himself, because he is on the terrestrial kingdom, and therefore doesn't live with God himself and get the opportunity to evolve himself eternally, or either create own planets?

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We will never be on a higher spiritual state that Jesus. He is our Savior and we will worship Him as such throughout eternity. Your source is mistaken in leading you to believe that He is not in the Celestial Kingdom where He sits on the right hand of God the Father.

3b) How does this work?

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It doesn't.

3c) Why doesn't Jesus live with God our father, but some of us got the opportunity to do this? Isn't Jesus bigger than us?

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He does live with God the Father.

Katzpur said:

The Latter-day Saints are frequently accused of believing that they can, at some point in the future, become "Gods." Understandably, to many who do not fully understand our doctrine, the mere idea is out-and-out heresy.

Before we get started, let's clear up two big, big misconceptions:

(1) We do not believe that any of us will ever be equal to God, our Eternal Father in Heaven. He will always be our God and we will always worship Him.

(2) Nothing we could possibly do on our own could exalt us to the level of deity. It is only through the will and grace of God that man is given this potential. And "with God, nothing is impossible."

We believe, as you may know, that ours is a restoration of the very Church Jesus Christ established during His ministry here on earth. It would follow, then, that we believe we are teaching the same doctrines as were taught then and accepted by Jesus’ followers. Throughout the New Testament, there are indications that this doctrine (known as deification or exaltation) is not one the Latter-day Saints invented, but that the earliest Christians understood and believed it, as well.

Romans 8:16-17, 2 Peter 1:4, Revelation 2:26-27 and Revelation 3:21 are the four I like best. Through these verses, we learn that, as children of God, we may also be His heirs, joint-heirs with Christ, even glorified with Him. We might partake of the nature of divinity and be allowed to sit with our Savior on His throne, to rule over the nations.

Now, if these promises are true (as I believe they are), what do they all boil down to? To the Latter-day Saints, they mean that we have the potential to someday, be “godlike.” One of our prophets explained that "we are gods in embryo." If our Father is divine and we are literally his "offspring", as the Bible teaches we are, is it really such a stretch of the imagination to believe that he has endowed each of us with a spark of divinity?

Finally, there is considerable evidence that the doctrine of deification was taught for quite some time after the Savior’s death, and accepted as orthodox. Some of the most well-known and respected of the early Christian Fathers made statements that were remarkably close to the statements LDS leaders have made. For example:

In the second century, Saint Irenaeus said, “If the Word became a man, it was so men may become gods.” He also posed this question: “Do we cast blame on Him (God) because we were not made gods from the beginning, but were at first created merely as men, and then later as Gods?” At about the same period of time, Saint Clement made this statement: “The Word of God became a man so that you might learn from a man how to become a god.” And Saint Justin Martyr agreed, saying that men are “deemed worthy of becoming gods and of having power to become sons of the highest.” Some two centuries later, Athanasius explained that “the Word was made flesh in order that we might be enabled to be made gods. He became man that we might be made divine.” And, finally, Augustine, said, “But He that justifies also deifies, for by justifying he makes sons of God. For he has given them power to become the sons of God. If then we have been made sons of God, we have also been made gods.”

Even the noted Christian theologian, C.S. Lewis, said much the same thing in his book "Mere Christianity."

“The command Be ye perfect is not idealistic gas. Nor is it a command to do the impossible. He is going to make us into creatures that can obey that command. He said (in the Bible) that we were “gods” and He is going to make good His words. If we let Him – for we can prevent Him, if we choose – He will make the feeblest and filthiest of us into a god or goddess, dazzling, radiant, immortal creature, pulsating all through with such energy and joy and wisdom and love as we cannot now imagine, a bright stainless mirror which reflects back to God perfectly (though, of course, on a smaller scale) His own boundless power and delight and goodness. The process will be long and in parts very painful; but that is what we are in for. Nothing less. He meant what He said."

Finally, according to The Westminster Dictionary of Christian Theology, “Deification (Greek theosis) is for Orthodoxy the goal of every Christian. Man, according to the Bible, is made in the image and likeness of God…. It is possible for man to become like God, to become deified, to become god by grace.”

So, the "Mormons" really didn't come up with this doctrine. We only restored that which had been lost for many, many years.

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Thanks very much for this thoughtful post.

I have been an heir to a deceased person's estate. My mother inherited as well. I was a joint heir with my mother, yet still her son only and neither a woman nor a mother.

Jesus is over all even in Heaven, save the Father (Ephesians 1). I am also an heir of the Kingdom that is coming, but I will not be god or even remotely godlike, except in the sinless nature imputed to me at the rapture by Jesus.

You may recall the other reason that people bring up the "ye are gods" doctrine. The former statements of the LDS that believers will propagate endless children on private planets throughout the universe, that women will be perpetually bearing children in a heaven where the men serve as gods, etc.

BilliardsBall said:

You may recall the other reason that people bring up the "ye are gods" doctrine. The former statements of the LDS that believers will propagate endless children on private planets throughout the universe, that women will be perpetually bearing children in a heaven where the men serve as gods, etc.

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Feel free to believe anything you want about what we teach. I have explained our doctrine accurately and you continue to embellish and parody it. No LDS leader has ever said, "Believers will propagate endless children on private planets throughout the universe and women will be perpetually bearing children in a heaven where the men serve as gods." That's simply not the case. You went into reading my post with a preconceived idea about what we believe and you concluded reading my post with exactly the same idea.

Katzpur said:

Feel free to believe anything you want about what we teach. I have explained our doctrine accurately and you continue to embellish and parody it. No LDS leader has ever said, "Believers will propagate endless children on private planets throughout the universe and women will be perpetually bearing children in a heaven where the men serve as gods." That's simply not the case. You went into reading my post with a preconceived idea about what we believe and you concluded reading my post with exactly the same idea.

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"We educate ourselves in the secular field and in the spiritual field so that we may one day create worlds, people and govern them." (The Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball, ed. Edward L. Kimball [1982], 386).

"The real life we’re preparing for is eternal life. Secular knowledge has for us eternal significance. Our conviction is that God, our Heavenly Father, wants us to live the life that He does. We learn both the spiritual things and the secular things 'so we may one day create worlds [and] people and govern them' (Spencer W. Kimball, The Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball, ed. Edward L. Kimball [1982], 386)." (Henry B. Eyring)

“Brethren, 225,000 of you are here tonight. I suppose 225,000 of you may become gods. There seems to be plenty of space out there in the universe. And the Lord has proved that he knows how to do it. I think he could make, or probably have us help make, worlds for all of us, for every one of us 225,000” (Spencer W. Kimball, “The Privilege of Holding the Priesthood,” Ensign (Conference Edition), November 1975, p. 80. Quoted in Doctrine and Covenants Institute Student Manual).

“The Father has promised us that through our faithfulness we shall be blessed with the fullness of his kingdom. In other words, we will have the privilege of becoming like him. To become like him we must have all the powers of godhood; thus a man and his wife when glorified will have spirit children who eventually will go on an earth like this one we are on and pass through the same kind of experiences, being subject to mortal conditions, and if faithful, then they also will receive the fullness of exaltation and partake of the same blessings. There is no end to this development; it will go on forever. We will become gods and have jurisdiction over worlds, and these worlds will be peopled by our own offspring.” (Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation 2:48, quoted in Achieving a Celestial Marriage Student Manual, 1976, p.132)

“When two Latter-day Saints are united together in marriage, promises are made to them concerning their offspring that reach from eternity to eternity. They are promised that they shall have the power and the right to govern and control and administer salvation and exaltation and glory to their offspring, worlds without end. And what offspring they do not have here, undoubtedly there will be opportunities to have them hereafter. What else could man wish? A man and a woman, in the other life, having celestial bodies, free from sickness and disease, glorified and beautified beyond description, standing in the midst of their posterity, governing and controlling them, administering life, exaltation and glory worlds without end” (Deseret News, 13 Mar. 1897; quoted by Spencer W. Kimball in The Miracle of Forgiveness [1969], 246; See also Lesson 10 of The Latter-day Saint Woman: Basic Manual for Women, Part A).

"All those who are counted worthy to be exalted and to become Gods, even the sons of God, will go forth and have earths and worlds like those who framed this and millions on millions of others." (Journal of Discourses 17:143)
“Having fought the good fight we then shall be prepared to lay our bodies down to rest to await the morning of the resurrection when they will come forth and be reunited with the spirits, the faithful, as it is said, receiving crowns, glory, immortality and eternal lives, even a fulness with the Father, when Jesus shall present His work to the Father, saying, ‘Father, here is the work thou gavest me to do.’ Then will they become Gods, even the sons of God; then will they become eternal fathers, eternal mothers, eternal sons and eternal daughters; being eternal in their organization they go from glory to glory, from power to power; they will never cease to increase and to multiply, worlds without end. When they receive their crowns, their dominions, they then will be prepared to frame earths like unto ours and to people them in the same manner as we have been brought forth by our parents, by our Father and God” (Discourses of Brigham Young, p. 283; Journal of Discourses 18:259, October 8, 1876)

Etc.

I recognize that the LDS seeks to distance itself from this doctrine today. Thanks.

BilliardsBall said:

"We educate ourselves in the secular field and in the spiritual field so that we may one day create worlds, people and govern them." (The Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball, ed. Edward L. Kimball [1982], 386).

"The real life we’re preparing for is eternal life. Secular knowledge has for us eternal significance. Our conviction is that God, our Heavenly Father, wants us to live the life that He does. We learn both the spiritual things and the secular things 'so we may one day create worlds [and] people and govern them' (Spencer W. Kimball, The Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball, ed. Edward L. Kimball [1982], 386)." (Henry B. Eyring)

“Brethren, 225,000 of you are here tonight. I suppose 225,000 of you may become gods. There seems to be plenty of space out there in the universe. And the Lord has proved that he knows how to do it. I think he could make, or probably have us help make, worlds for all of us, for every one of us 225,000” (Spencer W. Kimball, “The Privilege of Holding the Priesthood,” Ensign (Conference Edition), November 1975, p. 80. Quoted in Doctrine and Covenants Institute Student Manual).

“The Father has promised us that through our faithfulness we shall be blessed with the fullness of his kingdom. In other words, we will have the privilege of becoming like him. To become like him we must have all the powers of godhood; thus a man and his wife when glorified will have spirit children who eventually will go on an earth like this one we are on and pass through the same kind of experiences, being subject to mortal conditions, and if faithful, then they also will receive the fullness of exaltation and partake of the same blessings. There is no end to this development; it will go on forever. We will become gods and have jurisdiction over worlds, and these worlds will be peopled by our own offspring.” (Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation 2:48, quoted in Achieving a Celestial Marriage Student Manual, 1976, p.132)

“When two Latter-day Saints are united together in marriage, promises are made to them concerning their offspring that reach from eternity to eternity. They are promised that they shall have the power and the right to govern and control and administer salvation and exaltation and glory to their offspring, worlds without end. And what offspring they do not have here, undoubtedly there will be opportunities to have them hereafter. What else could man wish? A man and a woman, in the other life, having celestial bodies, free from sickness and disease, glorified and beautified beyond description, standing in the midst of their posterity, governing and controlling them, administering life, exaltation and glory worlds without end” (Deseret News, 13 Mar. 1897; quoted by Spencer W. Kimball in The Miracle of Forgiveness [1969], 246; See also Lesson 10 of The Latter-day Saint Woman: Basic Manual for Women, Part A).

"All those who are counted worthy to be exalted and to become Gods, even the sons of God, will go forth and have earths and worlds like those who framed this and millions on millions of others." (Journal of Discourses 17:143)
“Having fought the good fight we then shall be prepared to lay our bodies down to rest to await the morning of the resurrection when they will come forth and be reunited with the spirits, the faithful, as it is said, receiving crowns, glory, immortality and eternal lives, even a fulness with the Father, when Jesus shall present His work to the Father, saying, ‘Father, here is the work thou gavest me to do.’ Then will they become Gods, even the sons of God; then will they become eternal fathers, eternal mothers, eternal sons and eternal daughters; being eternal in their organization they go from glory to glory, from power to power; they will never cease to increase and to multiply, worlds without end. When they receive their crowns, their dominions, they then will be prepared to frame earths like unto ours and to people them in the same manner as we have been brought forth by our parents, by our Father and God” (Discourses of Brigham Young, p. 283; Journal of Discourses 18:259, October 8, 1876)

Etc.

I recognize that the LDS seeks to distance itself from this doctrine today. Thanks.

Click to expand...

Next we will hear how none of that is doctrine.

Do you realize, BilliardsBall, that you haven't provided one single solitary canonical source? Not one. Furthermore, it's clear that none of this research is your own. You've simply copied and pasted from some non-Mormon website. Furthermore, I didn't see one single solitary statement in any of these quotations that was even close to this claim: "Believers will propagate endless children on private planets throughout the universe and women will be perpetually bearing children in a heaven where the men serve as gods."

BilliardsBall said:

I recognize that the LDS seeks to distance itself from this doctrine today.

Click to expand...

No we do not. We do not seek to distance ourselves from what we actually teach. We believe in Eternal Progression. We do not deny for one minute that we believe our potential is to become like our Father in Heaven. Perhaps you believe that God is incapable of having created children that, with His guidance and blessing, will be capable of doing more than sitting on clouds and strumming harps. Perhaps you believe that He is so insecure that He is intimidated by the idea that His children might actually become like Him.

What we seek to distance ourselves from are the half-truths and parodies that people like you enjoy perpetrating with your pathetic attempt to paraphrase our doctrines. Before you return to continue to "debate" the issue, keep in mind that your perspective on this topic is not welcome here. You may ask respectful questions in the DIR, but you are not to debate the answers which you are given.

Katzpur said:

Do you realize, BilliardsBall, that you haven't provided one single solitary canonical source? Not one. Furthermore, it's clear that none of this research is your own. You've simply copied and pasted from some non-Mormon website. Furthermore, I didn't see one single solitary statement in any of these quotations that was even close to this claim: "Believers will propagate endless children on private planets throughout the universe and women will be perpetually bearing children in a heaven where the men serve as gods."

No we do not. We do not seek to distance ourselves from what we actually teach. We believe in Eternal Progression. We do not deny for one minute that we believe our potential is to become like our Father in Heaven. Perhaps you believe that God is incapable of having created children that, with His guidance and blessing, will be capable of doing more than sitting on clouds and strumming harps. Perhaps you believe that He is so insecure that He is intimidated by the idea that His children might actually become like Him.

What we seek to distance ourselves from are the half-truths and parodies that people like you enjoy perpetrating with your pathetic attempt to paraphrase our doctrines. Before you return to continue to "debate" the issue, keep in mind that your perspective on this topic is not welcome here. You may ask respectful questions in the DIR, but you are not to debate the answers which you are given.

Click to expand...

I apologize. You said you were writing this thread "elsewhere", I see now after reading your remarks that it is in the LDS DIR.

Respectfully, I did not debate you, and I can provide further quotes from Joseph [Fielding] Smith and Brigham Young if you would like me to, actually, I can provide several dozen more quotations, but I answered your question/objection, which was:

No LDS leader has ever said

Click to expand...

You asked to help me dispel rumors and I see you are helping me to do so. You didn't ask me for canon references. If you have, I apologize.

I'm not looking to upset you. I believe in Eternal Progression for Christians, yes. I shouldn't have used the word "perpetually" or "endless", for which I apologize. I should have written "bear enough children to propagate throughout a planet over time/eternity".

Thanks for your patience with me.

BilliardsBall said:

I apologize. You said you were writing this thread "elsewhere", I see now after reading your remarks that it is in the LDS DIR.

Respectfully, I did not debate you, and I can provide further quotes from Joseph [Fielding] Smith and Brigham Young if you would like me to, actually, I can provide several dozen more quotations, but I answered your question/objection, which was:



You asked to help me dispel rumors and I see you are helping me to do so. You didn't ask me for canon references. If you have, I apologize.

I'm not looking to upset you. I believe in Eternal Progression for Christians, yes. I shouldn't have used the word "perpetually" or "endless", for which I apologize. I should have written "bear enough children to propagate throughout a planet over time/eternity".

Thanks for your patience with me.

Click to expand...

Okay, let's try again. Here's the statement I object to: "Believers will propagate endless children on private planets throughout the universe and women will be perpetually bearing children in a heaven where the men serve as gods." It appears to be an attempt on your part to paraphrase or summarize our doctrine. And it was flawed in such a way that it's clearly intended to be insulting. I'll break the statement down into its component parts:

"Propagate endless children" and "perpetually bearing children": No woman bears children in heaven. Copulation, conception and pregnancy are functions unique to mortal women. It's the way a mortal infant comes into existence. There is no reason in the world for anyone to imagine a heaven where millions of women are wandering around eternally pregnant. The Bible tells us that God, our Father in Heaven is the father of our spirits and that we are His offspring. It says absolutely nothing about how a spirit is created, but the creation of spirits is something that gods and goddesses obviously are capable of. We believe that if we are able to progress eternally, we may someday have the godly powers to create new spirits.

"Private planets": I can't count the times I've heard people say, "Mormons believe that when they die, they'll be given a planet to rule over." That's utter nonsense. If I ever attain goddesshood (and it's something that, quite frankly, I don't even really even know that I'd want), nobody's going to give me my own little "private planet" to play with. If my husband and I become like god, we will be creators ourselves. God will have given us the same power to create as He has, and I would imagine that we'll want to use those powers to further glorify Him.

"Men serve as gods": Okay, so what else would they serve as -- goddesses? Men serve as gods and women serve as goddesses. They become that together, not separately. They will be equal partners, and neither will rule over the other.

As far as you providing additional quotations, it's not necessary. As my Church leadership has repeatedly stated, anything that is considered doctrinally binding upon the Latter-day Saints can be substantiated through the "Standard Works." This is the LDS canon on scripture: The Holy Bible (we use the KJV), The Book of Mormon, The Doctrine and Covenants, and The Pearl of Great Price. Any statement which cannot be backed up by scripture is nothing more than one man's opinion. Period.

Katzpur said:

Okay, let's try again. Here's the statement I object to: "Believers will propagate endless children on private planets throughout the universe and women will be perpetually bearing children in a heaven where the men serve as gods." It appears to be an attempt on your part to paraphrase or summarize our doctrine. And it was flawed in such a way that it's clearly intended to be insulting. I'll break the statement down into its component parts:

"Propagate endless children" and "perpetually bearing children": No woman bears children in heaven. Copulation, conception and pregnancy are functions unique to mortal women. It's the way a mortal infant comes into existence. There is no reason in the world for anyone to imagine a heaven where millions of women are wandering around eternally pregnant. The Bible tells us that God, our Father in Heaven is the father of our spirits and that we are His offspring. It says absolutely nothing about how a spirit is created, but the creation of spirits is something that gods and goddesses obviously are capable of. We believe that if we are able to progress eternally, we may someday have the godly powers to create new spirits.

"Private planets": I can't count the times I've heard people say, "Mormons believe that when they die, they'll be given a planet to rule over." That's utter nonsense. If I ever attain goddesshood (and it's something that, quite frankly, I don't even really even know that I'd want), nobody's going to give me my own little "private planet" to play with. If my husband and I become like god, we will be creators ourselves. God will have given us the same power to create as He has, and I would imagine that we'll want to use those powers to further glorify Him.

"Men serve as gods": Okay, so what else would they serve as -- goddesses? Men serve as gods and women serve as goddesses. They become that together, not separately. They will be equal partners, and neither will rule over the other.

As far as you providing additional quotations, it's not necessary. As my Church leadership has repeatedly stated, anything that is considered doctrinally binding upon the Latter-day Saints can be substantiated through the "Standard Works." This is the LDS canon on scripture: The Holy Bible (we use the KJV), The Book of Mormon, The Doctrine and Covenants, and The Pearl of Great Price. Any statement which cannot be backed up by scripture is nothing more than one man's opinion. Period.

Click to expand...

Did I post "one" man's opinion?

I want to understand. Are you saying Eternal Progression does not include childbearing?

I had not yet heard the statement, "Men serve as gods and women serve as goddesses". Is that canon? Do you have a reference? I believe that there is one God. I also believe that unless I misunderstand, gods and goddesses are to rule over subject of some kind, somewhere.

Thanks.

BilliardsBall said:

I want to understand. Are you saying Eternal Progression does not include childbearing?

Click to expand...

It definitely does not include childbearing as we use the term. It is referring to the creation of new spirits that would give life to physical bodies. Maybe it's that you don't understand that we believe every human being existed in spirit form prior to his or her birth. In other words, we don't believe that our spirits were created at either conception or birth but lived in God's presence for millennia prior to giving life to a tiny baby's body. In essence, Eternal Progression teaches that the same thing is going to happen and over again. And keep in mind that we're not talking about any of this taking place the instant we enter heaven. If any of us are to progress to be gods or goddesses, this may not occur for billions of years. Eternity is a very long time, you know.

I had not yet heard the statement, "Men serve as gods and women serve as goddesses". Is that canon? Do you have a reference?

Click to expand...

We believe that in order to become a god, a man must be united in celestial marriage to a woman. Likewise, in order to become a goddess, a woman must be united in celestial marriage to a man. The husband-wife relationship is extremely important in Mormonism, and no one is exacted alone.

I believe that there is one God.

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Well, so do I, inasmuch as I believe that there is only one God who has any control over my life. One God created me, gave me life, watches over me, loves me, hears and answers my prayers, ends my life at His will, and will be judging me in the end. In terms of any other gods, I recognize that they are mentioned in the Bible (Paul even referred to them as being, not only on earth, but in heaven), but they can do absolutely nothing to or for me. If I were to think they had any power or influence over me, I would be worshipping false gods.

I also believe that unless I misunderstand, gods and goddesses are to rule over subject of some kind, somewhere.

Click to expand...

Yes, and that's what I tried to explain in my first paragraph. If it still doesn't make sense, let me know and I'll try again.

Katzpur said:

It definitely does not include childbearing as we use the term. It is referring to the creation of new spirits that would give life to physical bodies. Maybe it's that you don't understand that we believe every human being existed in spirit form prior to his or her birth. In other words, we don't believe that our spirits were created at either conception or birth but lived in God's presence for millennia prior to giving life to a tiny baby's body. In essence, Eternal Progression teaches that the same thing is going to happen and over again. And keep in mind that we're not talking about any of this taking place the instant we enter heaven. If any of us are to progress to be gods or goddesses, this may not occur for billions of years. Eternity is a very long time, you know.

We believe that in order to become a god, a man must be united in celestial marriage to a woman. Likewise, in order to become a goddess, a woman must be united in celestial marriage to a man. The husband-wife relationship is extremely important in Mormonism, and no one is exacted alone.

Well, so do I, inasmuch as I believe that there is only one God who has any control over my life. One God created me, gave me life, watches over me, loves me, hears and answers my prayers, ends my life at His will, and will be judging me in the end. In terms of any other gods, I recognize that they are mentioned in the Bible (Paul even referred to them as being, not only on earth, but in heaven), but they can do absolutely nothing to or for me. If I were to think they had any power or influence over me, I would be worshipping false gods.

Yes, and that's what I tried to explain in my first paragraph. If it still doesn't make sense, let me know and I'll try again.

Click to expand...

Thank you sincerely for clarifying. I'm not trying to twist your words or put words in your mouth, and it sounds like I need to do more reading of some LDS canonical materials, but are you saying I would be in a celestial marriage with a wife but no children and/or that the children would have spirits but no bodies?

May I ask also, what is your interpretation of this statement? Even if it takes billions of years, it would be us adding to the divine spark of grace in not just eternally progressing, but progressing unto godhood.

And, I apologize for all these questions, but what are your thoughts about Isaiah 43:10?

"You are my witnesses," declares the LORD, "and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me.

Thank you.

BilliardsBall asked “…what are your thoughts about Isaiah 43:10?

"You are my witnesses," declares the LORD, "and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me.”



Hi BilliardsBall, I didn’t want to intercept Katzpur’s response but saw this thread and read a bit of it. Katzpur may have understood your question, when you asked “what are your thoughts about…”. However, "what are your thoughts" was too vague of a question for me to understand what sort of information you were seeking. If katzpur answers “I like Isaiah 43:10”, it may give us her “thoughts” but not answer your actual question. Can you give some specifics?

For example, I can’t tell if you are assuming that the translator is speaking temporally or spatially since you have not given any details. I very much agree with the writer of Isaiah 43:10 and if you also agree with Isaiah, such vague agreements still don’t necessarily place us in agreement on what the writer meant.

For example, beginning where the translator rendered “I am he” , the Hebrew is : כִּי-אֲנִי הוּא--לְפָנַי לֹא-נוֹצַר אֵל, וְאַחֲרַי לֹא יִהְיֶה.

Do you think the readers of Isaiahs time would have thought לְפָנַי (literally “to face”) actually was a temporal reference meaning “before me”? Or do you think that in their historical context, לְפָנַי would have had a different contextual meaning?

As a second question, the later translator rendered the Hebrew “נוֹצַר” as “formed”.

Do you think this is the best contextual rendering for this word that conveys it’s meaning for Isaiah and his readers, or do you think another rendering would better reflect what a hebrew would have understood this word to mean when it was written?

For example, in the historical context of Israels tendency to worship other Gods and the repeated textual witnesses to Jehovahs incomparability to them, do you think this Hebrew root, meaning to “flourish” or “blossom” would have been understood to mean “formed” by the writer?

What do you think the Hebrew actually meant and why do you assign it that meaning?

BilliardsBall, I hope your spiritual journey is Good.


Clear
ειαξτζω

BilliardsBall said:

"We educate ourselves in the secular field and in the spiritual field so that we may one day create worlds, people and govern them." (The Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball, ed. Edward L. Kimball [1982], 386).

"The real life we’re preparing for is eternal life. Secular knowledge has for us eternal significance. Our conviction is that God, our Heavenly Father, wants us to live the life that He does. We learn both the spiritual things and the secular things 'so we may one day create worlds [and] people and govern them' (Spencer W. Kimball, The Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball, ed. Edward L. Kimball [1982], 386)." (Henry B. Eyring)

“Brethren, 225,000 of you are here tonight. I suppose 225,000 of you may become gods. There seems to be plenty of space out there in the universe. And the Lord has proved that he knows how to do it. I think he could make, or probably have us help make, worlds for all of us, for every one of us 225,000” (Spencer W. Kimball, “The Privilege of Holding the Priesthood,” Ensign (Conference Edition), November 1975, p. 80. Quoted in Doctrine and Covenants Institute Student Manual).

“The Father has promised us that through our faithfulness we shall be blessed with the fullness of his kingdom. In other words, we will have the privilege of becoming like him. To become like him we must have all the powers of godhood; thus a man and his wife when glorified will have spirit children who eventually will go on an earth like this one we are on and pass through the same kind of experiences, being subject to mortal conditions, and if faithful, then they also will receive the fullness of exaltation and partake of the same blessings. There is no end to this development; it will go on forever. We will become gods and have jurisdiction over worlds, and these worlds will be peopled by our own offspring.” (Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation 2:48, quoted in Achieving a Celestial Marriage Student Manual, 1976, p.132)

“When two Latter-day Saints are united together in marriage, promises are made to them concerning their offspring that reach from eternity to eternity. They are promised that they shall have the power and the right to govern and control and administer salvation and exaltation and glory to their offspring, worlds without end. And what offspring they do not have here, undoubtedly there will be opportunities to have them hereafter. What else could man wish? A man and a woman, in the other life, having celestial bodies, free from sickness and disease, glorified and beautified beyond description, standing in the midst of their posterity, governing and controlling them, administering life, exaltation and glory worlds without end” (Deseret News, 13 Mar. 1897; quoted by Spencer W. Kimball in The Miracle of Forgiveness [1969], 246; See also Lesson 10 of The Latter-day Saint Woman: Basic Manual for Women, Part A).

"All those who are counted worthy to be exalted and to become Gods, even the sons of God, will go forth and have earths and worlds like those who framed this and millions on millions of others." (Journal of Discourses 17:143)
“Having fought the good fight we then shall be prepared to lay our bodies down to rest to await the morning of the resurrection when they will come forth and be reunited with the spirits, the faithful, as it is said, receiving crowns, glory, immortality and eternal lives, even a fulness with the Father, when Jesus shall present His work to the Father, saying, ‘Father, here is the work thou gavest me to do.’ Then will they become Gods, even the sons of God; then will they become eternal fathers, eternal mothers, eternal sons and eternal daughters; being eternal in their organization they go from glory to glory, from power to power; they will never cease to increase and to multiply, worlds without end. When they receive their crowns, their dominions, they then will be prepared to frame earths like unto ours and to people them in the same manner as we have been brought forth by our parents, by our Father and God” (Discourses of Brigham Young, p. 283; Journal of Discourses 18:259, October 8, 1876)

Etc.

I recognize that the LDS seeks to distance itself from this doctrine today. Thanks.

Click to expand...

Norman: Hi BilliardsBall, you are in a DIR, which means it is for questions only, and no debate on the answers received. You copied and pasted many things here without any questions. What are
you questions about The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints?

BilliardsBall said:

Thanks very much for this thoughtful post.

I have been an heir to a deceased person's estate. My mother inherited as well. I was a joint heir with my mother, yet still her son only and neither a woman nor a mother.

Jesus is over all even in Heaven, save the Father (Ephesians 1). I am also an heir of the Kingdom that is coming, but I will not be god or even remotely godlike, except in the sinless nature imputed to me at the rapture by Jesus.

You may recall the other reason that people bring up the "ye are gods" doctrine. The former statements of the LDS that believers will propagate endless children on private planets throughout the universe, that women will be perpetually bearing children in a heaven where the men serve as gods, etc.

Click to expand...

Norman: Hi BilliardsBall, again, what is your question (s)? All you keep doing is making statements.

Katzpur said:

We believe that in order to become a god, a man must be united in celestial marriage to a woman. Likewise, in order to become a goddess, a woman must be united in celestial marriage to a man. The husband-wife relationship is extremely important in Mormonism, and no one is exalted alone.

Click to expand...

I just noticed a typo and with it, my post doesn't make much sense.

Norman said:

Norman: Hi BilliardsBall, you are in a DIR, which means it is for questions only, and no debate on the answers received. You copied and pasted many things here without any questions. What are
you questions about The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints?

Click to expand...

Actually, I think BilliardsBall is trying to understand our doctrine at this point. He just doesn't have a lot of background in Mormon theology, so it's kind of confusing.