Shedding blood in the name of God.

jeffrey said:

Look at the bloodshed in the name of the Christian God. Look at the OT. And as I stated in the OP, when you think of violence, your 1st thought isn't Christianity. Until you look at the history of it. Name Religion who's history can compare with the amount of deaths that Christianity has.

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Would that be deaths per believer, or just a sum total?

Seriously, Jeffrey, how could we even come up with a reliable bunch of numbers to compare? Do we in the West really have the straight dope on the numbers killed in Islam, or Hinduism, or hey...maybe even Zoroastrianism?

We hear all about the deaths done in the name of Christianity *because we live here*.

Maybe, but it seems more so with Christianity. As I've stated in other threads, I do not see God ordering man to kill other men. The overlay of Christ's teachings was peace. Defending yourself is one thing, but killing just because someone's beliefs are different are wrong, no matter what religion you follow.

jeffrey said:

FYI, I'm not knocking Christianity. I'm saying that "Killing in the name of God" is wrong and misguided. If God truely wanted someone dead, he could do it himself.

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Granted, I realized you don't view the bible in the same manner that I do...

I don't agree that killing in the name of God has always been wrong and misguided. I'm speaking of the God of Abraham here...take the OT of the Bible, for example...

God Himself DID kill people on the spot...I could site several examples, if you'd like. He also instructed his people to kill at times...the punishment for certain sins WAS death...this was mandated by God.

So, in one respect...one could view that your gripe is with God.

Again, I realize that you don't accept the OT of the Bible to be truth...but if Moses were face to face with you...he'd probably tell you...he was following orders, if you know what I mean.

I'm not saying that all killings and murder in the name of Christianity and God have been just...so please don't read this...I just wanted to provide a different take on this...

And if you accept the NT of the Bible to be truth...you do know that many will be killed in the end in the name of Christ.

Sorry, Dawny, I don't buy it. If I said that God told me to in kill someone from another religion, what would you think? Would you believe me?

And no. I don't have a gripe with God. I just think people to often, as in the OT, use God as an excuse to kill. God doesn't kill. People kill.

jeffrey said:

Sorry, Dawny, I don't buy it. If I said that God told me to in kill someone from another religion, what would you think? Would you believe me?

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Now, probably not.

I was referencing the OT when God spoke directly to Moses and established the law under the OT covenant. God himself killed people right on the spot. The punishment for certain sin was death...as mandated by God.

You may not buy it but many who believe...understand that God Almighty HAS commanded death...upon those who oppose and defy Him.

jeffrey said:

And no. I don't have a gripe with God. I just think people to often, as in the OT, use God as an excuse to kill. God doesn't kill. People kill.

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But God did kill. I could quote scripture...but I'm sure you're already familiar with it...you simply don't accept it.

God has killed on the spot...without the hand of man...

Can you cite examples throughout history (other than the persecution of supposed witches and beyond the writing of the OT) where Christians have murdered for the sake of Christianity and God?

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When Christianity was young Christians were persecuted. We also know that the orthodox Christians persecuted the more 'liberal' Christians of that time. The Gnostics were persecuted by other Christians for example.

The previous post mentioned the Crusades. There were at least 12 of those where Christians killed in the name of Christianity. Additionally, both the Inquisitions were mentioned. Those too were killings in the name of Christianity. Then there was the centuries of war in Ireland that started over religion.

As someone else mentioned, the Muslims and Hindus in India fight. Then there was the whole scene with the witch trials in North America.

And of course this past few years there's been AlQuada and now Bush who is at war in the name of the Almighty.

I'm sure there have been lots of other wars fought in the name of religion, but that's a good start. Check out Wikipedia for more information on both the Crusades and the Inqisitions. Those were some really great Christians!!

I think it's possible that religion has been responsible for more wars and deaths than any one other thing.

True followers of Jesus have never engaged in mortal combat on earth since Jesus told us to love our enemies. Of course there have been many false christians and false christian organizations who have rebelled against the Words of Jesus and have taken part in combat. But that does not make Christianity a bloody religion. That just makes false Christianity a bloody religion. False christianity is Not Christianity and therefore one cannot use the action of false christians to attack Christianity.

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Whether people who did these things were false Christians or not is a laughable argument. They professed to be Christian. It is nice when you can try to wiggle out of the fact that terrible things have been done in the name of Christianity, but trying to say they were false Christians doesn't wash. They were Christians and they did these terrible things. Period.

Additionally, I assure you that there were many men who fought in both the First and Second World Wars who were followers of Jesus and fought in mortal combat. Oh yeah, also the Korean and Vietnam wars as well. So to say that no follower of Jesus has fought in mortal combat just isn't so. Just ask the surviving relatives of those who died in those wars and I think they would agree with me on that.

dawny0826 said:

But God did kill. I could quote scripture...but I'm sure you're already familiar with it...you simply don't accept it.

God has killed on the spot...without the hand of man...

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And I could quote Grimm's fairy tales too! About the same.

If someone raped a member of a Christian family from another town, would it be ok for the men of that family to go to that town, play Rambo and wipe out the entire town?

jeffrey said:

If someone raped a member of a Christian family from another town, would it be ok for the men of that family to go to that town, play Rambo and wipe out the entire town?

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Of course not...

And you could take out the word Christian and insert any other religion you'd like...and my answer would be the same.

jeffrey said:

And I could quote Grimm's fairy tales too! About the same.

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I know...I know...

I kind of had a hunch you'd respond that way but I thought I'd give it a go...

Whether people who did these things were false Christians or not is a laughable argument. They professed to be Christian. It is nice when you can try to wiggle out of the fact that terrible things have been done in the name of Christianity, but trying to say they were false Christians doesn't wash. They were Christians and they did these terrible things. Period.

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I don't deny that Christians throughout history have done terrible things.

But I can tell you AS a Christian that claiming to be Christian and actually living as Christ instructs ARE two very DIFFERENT things.

I hear you that when one claims to be Christian and claims to be doing things in the name of Christianity...the world and history documents that at face value. On this note...I agree with you...Christians have done some horrible acts throughout history and I do appreciate your detailed post.

However...I will state...even if this statement causes you to break down in a giggle fit biglaugh: )...professing that you're Christian doesn't mean you actually follow Christ. Period.

I could claim anything...doesn't mean that my claim is true...

dawny0826 said:

Of course not...

And you could take out the word Christian and insert any other religion you'd like...and my answer would be the same.

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But it was ok in the ot to do it... So why not now, sense it was ok then? In the name of God, that is?

jeffrey said:

But it was ok in the ot to do it... So why not now, sense it was ok then? In the name of God, that is?

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Because in the OT...man was bound by different laws, Jeff. If God mandated that the punishment for such a sin was death upon the culprit...then so be it...

Now...if one believes in and follows Christ...they are bound by the laws of the NT...the covenant established with Christ.

And I think it is noteworthy that Jesus Christ Himself said "An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth".

Show me were he said that. I believed he replied to someone that asked him that, turn the other cheek. Now, your saying God changed his mind? That in the OT it was ok to murder whole towns in the name of revenge? Look at what you're saying. Christ also said he was not there to change the laws.

Greetings!

jeffrey said:

What religion/s would boast this? My 1st thought would be Islamic. But this was said in another thread about Christianity, or more precisely, Moses. Looking back, Christianity has some pretty violent history, murdering people that from different religions. I believe Islam has a way to go before catching Christianity.. Your thoughts?

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Certainly true religion does not value nor boast of this!

(And granted, various individuals in various religions have perverted it and corrupted it over the centuries for their own nefarious purposes!)

But that said, the principle remains clear!

The Baha'i scriptures state this very plainly:

42 Beware lest ye shed the blood of anyone. Unsheathe the sword of your tongue from the scabbard of utterance, for therewith ye can conquer the citadels of men’s hearts. We have abolished the law to wage holy war against each other. God’s mercy, hath, verily, encompassed all created things, if ye do but understand. Aid ye your Lord, the God of Mercy, with the sword of understanding. Keener indeed is it, and more finely tempered, than the sword of utterance, were ye but to reflect upon the words of your Lord. Thus have the hosts of Divine Revelation been sent down by God, the Help in Peril, the Self-Subsisting

-- The Summons of the Lord of Hosts, p. 23

And sufice it to say that in Islam, the Qur'an 2:256 explicitly says "Let there be no compulsion in religion!"

Peace,

Bruce

A great bedtime psalm to tell your children is psalm 137. The last verse is "Happy those who seize your children and smash them against a rock"..... If our soldiers in Iraq did this,... and especially were happy...

jeffrey said:

FYI, I'm not knocking Christianity. I'm saying that "Killing in the name of God" is wrong and misguided. If God truely wanted someone dead, he could do it himself.

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This is what the jewish said to their prophet Moses when he commanded them to enter to the holy land which God gave to them. So, they disobied God out of fear of fighting.

God can make anyone dead anytime he please but this life is a test for us, human beings, whether we believe in him or disbelieve.

[20] Remember Musa said to his people: "O my People! call in remembrance the favour of Allah unto you, when He produced prophets among you, made you kings, and gave you what He had not given to any other among the peoples.


[21] "O my people! enter the holy land which Allah hath assigned unto you, and turn not back Ignominiously, for then will ye be overthrown, to your own ruin."


[22] They said: "O Musa! in this land are a people of exceeding strength: never shall we enter it until they leave it: if (once) they leave, then shall we enter."

[23] (But) among (their) God-fearing men were two on whom Allah had bestowed His grace: they said: "Assault them at the (proper) Gate: when once ye are in, victory will be yours; But on Allah put your trust if ye have faith."


[24] They said: "O Musa! while they remain there, never shall we be able to enter, to the end of time. Go thou, and thy Lord, and fight ye two, while we sit here (and watch)."


[25] He said: "O my Lord! I have power only over myself and my brother: so separate us from this rebellious people!"

[26] Allah said: "Therefore will the land be out of their reach for forty years: in distraction will they wander through the land: but sorrow thou not over these rebellious people. (Quran Surah 5)


Actually, i'm surprised in how many christians deny the OT while they hold it under thier arm when they preach.

How can a christian who believe in the whole bible as the word of God say no no, oh, that was the OT God not the NT one !!!

If they are one person (the father and the son), is that mean Jesus was part of that thing (because the trinity say Jesus is part of God, so he was there !!!)

I have been confused about this since a while :bonk:

Any thoughts?

Moses, commanded by God, in Numbers 7-18, wiped out an entire city, killed the male children, the women who were not virgins were also killed. The virgins were spared to be raped when they so desired... I'll ask again. If our soldiers did this, what would be thought of them?