Joseph Smith's First Vision

Hong Xiuquan · May 3, 2015

I have lived in many countries and I have seen Mormons in action and though I don't hold their beliefs, I admire them for their devotion and efforts to share what they believe with others. They go the extra mile to learn about other religions. I thought I would go the extra mile and read some of the things Joseph Smith had to say....so that the conversation is not one sided....focusing on my beliefs.....but looking at their beliefs too. I will share Joesph Smith's first vision soon so we can discuss it. For those who don't know who Joseph Smith was.....He was the leader or prophet of the Latter Day Saints Church, who started the LDS church.

Hong Xiuquan · May 3, 2015

Here is a copy of Joseph Smith's first vision.....

Extract from Joseph Smith 2 [background information first....In 1820, Joseph Smith had a question about which of the Protestant denominations was correct, which he wanted to ask God about]

Joseph Smith 2:15-20a following...."After I had retired to the place where I had previously designed to go, having looked around me, and finding myself alone, I kneeled down and began to offer up the desire of my heart to God. I had scarcely done so, when immediately I was seized upon by some power which entirely overcame me, and had such an astonishing influence over me as to bind my tongue so that I could not speak. Thick darkness gathered around me, and it seemed to me for a time as if I were doomed to sudden destruction.

But , exerting all my powers to call upon God to deliver me out of the power of this enemy which had seized me, and at the very moment when I was ready to sink into despair and abandon myself to destruction- not to an imaginary ruin, but to the power of some actual being from the unseen world, who had such marvelous power as I had never before felt in any being- just at this moment of great alarm, I saw a pillar of light exactly over my head, above the brightness of the sun, which descended gradually until it fell upon me.

It not sooner appeared than I found myself delivered from the enemy which held me bound. When the light rested upon me I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said , pointing to the other-This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!

My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know of which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right- and which I should join.

I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personages who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: "they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof".

He again forbade me to join with any of them; and many other things did he say unto me, which I can not write at this time. When I came to myself again, I found myself lying on my back, looking up into Heaven. When the light had departed, I had no strength; but soon recovering in some degree, I went home."

Any comments about this? Have you read this vision before? If so, what is your interpretation? God bless.

A Vestigial Mote · May 3, 2015

What he describes as (supposedly) God's account of the condition of believers and beliefs ("they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me") sounds a lot like what has been a rampant problem throughout all of history. The same holds true for today's world. So I have to wonder why God hasn't visited more "Joseph Smith's" to try and finally get the job done? Does he feel he did enough with the visit to this man and now he's just waiting for the LDS church to fulfill its destiny and restore the scriptures and, ultimately, the "church"? If so, I think He'll be waiting quite a long time.

I spoke with some Mormons who came to my door on several occasions. They were nice enough guys, but no matter what questions I had, their response was that they would go back, pray on it, and see what God revealed to them in order to answer me. Every time they came back, all they could do was point to more scripture, or hand me some pamphlet and ask me to read it - telling me that once I read it, and prayed to God, I would come to know that what they were telling me was true. I felt sorry for them. The entire time I spoke with them, they may have had 3 or 4 original thoughts between them the entire time. I eventually had to tell them they needn't bother coming back. Again - they were nice enough guys.

Hong Xiuquan · May 3, 2015

Thanks for the reply. It's interesting to hear your comments about door to door witnessing. They must have been trained in your area to do this. I didn't experience what you did. However, I found it really hard to have a conversation with 2 Mormons at once. I would prefer a one to one conversation so I can get my view across. As soon as one guy was finished, his friend was ready to say what he wanted to. They didn't really want to hear what I had to say.But we can't change this. The rule is to go out in twos. I gave up in the end. That is why I like the internet. I've had some good conversations on the worldwide web with Mormons where we both get to say what we want to.

Personally, I'm not sure that JS actually saw Jesus and God. In the Bible, no one actually saw God the father completely. The image I see in Christian scripture is more of a being in a kind of blurred spirit form. To have 2 figures that look like men together goes against what I've read in the Bible. Jesus is the figure who always comes in human form. Even in the Old Testament, Christians believe that Christ existed as the word of God and could come in human form and did....to Abraham....and to Daniel's friends in the furnace etc.

In Joseph Smith's own words, he describes what I would call a demonic possession. Who's to say the demon actually left. I've never read in the Bible where a person got possessed prior to seeing Jesus or God or an angel. It's important to look at the Christian scriptures because it is a record of over 1000 years of encounters with God the father, Jesus, the Holy Spirit, angels, and demons. But I believe that Joseph Smith did have a vision. My view is an acceptable Christian perspective. Another more common Christian view is that Joseph Smith was lying. That's not my view.

God bless.

Katzpur · May 3, 2015

Hong Xiuquan said:
I have lived in many countries and I have seen Mormons in action and though I don't hold their beliefs, I admire them for their devotion and efforts to share what they believe with others. They go the extra mile to learn about other religions. I thought I would go the extra mile and read some of the things Joseph Smith had to say....so that the conversation is not one sided....focusing on my beliefs.....but looking at their beliefs too. I will share Joesph Smith's first vision soon so we can discuss it. For those who don't know who Joseph Smith was.....He was the leader or prophet of the Latter Day Saints Church, who started the LDS church.

Maybe we ought to start this conversation by getting the name of the church you're talking about correct. It's The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, not the Latter Day Saints Church. Note the name "Jesus Christ." Those are the two most important words in the name of our church and you conveniently left them out.

Nietzsche · May 3, 2015

Katzpur said:
Maybe we ought to start this conversation by getting the name of the church you're talking about correct. It's The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, not the Latter Day Saints Church. Note the name "Jesus Christ." Those are the two most important words in the name of our church and you conveniently left them out.

I sincerely doubt he did that to snub the LDS. You lot have an incredibly convoluted name(The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints). LDS or Church of Latter-Day Saints is simply convenient. It's a similar thing with JWs and SDAs. You Christians seem to have a penchant for slapping on adjectives.

Katzpur · May 3, 2015

Nietzsche said:
I sincerely doubt he did that to snub the LDS. You lot have an incredibly convoluted name(The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints). LDS or Church of Latter-Day Saints is simply convenient. It's a similar thing with JWs and SDAs. You Christians seem to have a penchant for slapping on adjectives.

Depending upon the poster, you might have a point. But this particular poster has already said (on another thread) that Mormons are polytheists and non-Christians. Yeah, the name of the Church is quite a mouthful, but when people choose to drop the two most important words in it, there's usually a reason.

Nietzsche · May 3, 2015

Katzpur said:
Depending upon the poster, you might have a point. But this particular poster has already said (on another thread) that Mormons are polytheists and non-Christians. Yeah, the name of the Church is quite a mouthful, but when people choose to drop the two most important words in it, there's usually a reason.

Fair enough. Just thought I'd offer the benefit of the doubt first. And do remember;

Never attribute to malice that which can be readily explained by incompetence, laziness, stupidity or simple ignorance.

Katzpur · May 3, 2015

Hong Xiuquan said:
And do remember;

Never attribute to malice that which can be readily explained by incompetence, laziness, stupidity or simple ignorance.

LOL! Good advice.

Katzpur · May 3, 2015

Hong Xiuquan said:
Any comments about this? Have you read this vision before? If so, what is your interpretation?

Well, as one LDS author said, "It either happened or it didn't. No other perspective is of any relevance." I believe it happened.

Mycroft · May 3, 2015

Hong Xiuquan said:
door to door witnessing. .

Door to door witnessing, like street witnessing is ultimately a waste of time. This isn't just true of Mormons, but of JW's and other assorted beliefs, too. The reason for this is that if someone isn't ready/willing to convert, nothing you say is ever going to change their mind. And if they are ready to convert, they'll probably have found some means of doing so before you ever knock on their door.

silvermoon383 · May 3, 2015

You're right, HongXiuquan, it was incredibly unusual for Heavenly Father to appear personally to Joseph, but not entirely unprecedented. At Christ's baptism there was a voice declaring "This is my beloved Son.". Granted, just a voice but clearly a separate being from Christ.

When you consider the standard teachings that the Father and the Son are the same person (along with the Holy Ghost), to me it makes sense for both to appear to Joseph at the same time, no better way to demonstrate a very critical point about Their nature.

As for the idea of Joseph being possessed, I can see where you get the idea. He was clearly attacked while trying to pray in the grove, but the possessions experienced in the Bible that I can think of off the top of my head werent momentary events that left no lasting effect. Those who had demons cast out of hem by Christ and the prophets and apostles were continually afflicted with the effects.

Norman · May 3, 2015

Hong Xiuquan said:
I have lived in many countries and I have seen Mormons in action and though I don't hold their beliefs, I admire them for their devotion and efforts to share what they believe with others. They go the extra mile to learn about other religions. I thought I would go the extra mile and read some of the things Joseph Smith had to say....so that the conversation is not one sided....focusing on my beliefs.....but looking at their beliefs too. I will share Joesph Smith's first vision soon so we can discuss it. For those who don't know who Joseph Smith was.....He was the leader or prophet of the Latter Day Saints Church, who started the LDS church.

Norman: Hi Hong Xiuquan, The name is The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. We prefer to be called appropiatley LDS or as speaking of our Church as a whole, Mormonism is prefered. We believe that Joseph Smith is a true Prophet of God. What sect of Protestantism do you embrace?

Norman · May 3, 2015

Hong Xiuquan said:
Here is a copy of Joseph Smith's first vision.....

Extract from Joseph Smith 2 [background information first....In 1820, Joseph Smith had a question about which of the Protestant denominations was correct, which he wanted to ask God about]

Joseph Smith 2:15-20a following...."After I had retired to the place where I had previously designed to go, having looked around me, and finding myself alone, I kneeled down and began to offer up the desire of my heart to God. I had scarcely done so, when immediately I was seized upon by some power which entirely overcame me, and had such an astonishing influence over me as to bind my tongue so that I could not speak. Thick darkness gathered around me, and it seemed to me for a time as if I were doomed to sudden destruction.

But , exerting all my powers to call upon God to deliver me out of the power of this enemy which had seized me, and at the very moment when I was ready to sink into despair and abandon myself to destruction- not to an imaginary ruin, but to the power of some actual being from the unseen world, who had such marvelous power as I had never before felt in any being- just at this moment of great alarm, I saw a pillar of light exactly over my head, above the brightness of the sun, which descended gradually until it fell upon me.

It not sooner appeared than I found myself delivered from the enemy which held me bound. When the light rested upon me I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said , pointing to the other-This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!

My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know of which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right- and which I should join.

I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personages who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: "they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof".

He again forbade me to join with any of them; and many other things did he say unto me, which I can not write at this time. When I came to myself again, I found myself lying on my back, looking up into Heaven. When the light had departed, I had no strength; but soon recovering in some degree, I went home."

Any comments about this? Have you read this vision before? If so, what is your interpretation? God bless.

Norman: Hi Hong Xiuquan, What is your interest in Joseph Smith's vision of God the Father and Jesus Christ?

Norman · May 3, 2015

A Vestigial Mote said:
What he describes as (supposedly) God's account of the condition of believers and beliefs ("they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me") sounds a lot like what has been a rampant problem throughout all of history. The same holds true for today's world. So I have to wonder why God hasn't visited more "Joseph Smith's" to try and finally get the job done? Does he feel he did enough with the visit to this man and now he's just waiting for the LDS church to fulfill its destiny and restore the scriptures and, ultimately, the "church"? If so, I think He'll be waiting quite a long time.

I spoke with some Mormons who came to my door on several occasions. They were nice enough guys, but no matter what questions I had, their response was that they would go back, pray on it, and see what God revealed to them in order to answer me. Every time they came back, all they could do was point to more scripture, or hand me some pamphlet and ask me to read it - telling me that once I read it, and prayed to God, I would come to know that what they were telling me was true. I felt sorry for them. The entire time I spoke with them, they may have had 3 or 4 original thoughts between them the entire time. I eventually had to tell them they needn't bother coming back. Again - they were nice enough guys.

Norman: Hi A Vestigial Mote, As far as the claim by Joseph Smith that God the Father and Jesus Christ appeared to him, we share with people that the only way to know if this really happened is to pray to God and by the power of the Holy Ghost one can know the truth of this. As far as our missionaries, they are young men and woman who leave there families, friends for two years to share the message of our Church. I think it takes a lot of courage to knock on a stranger's door to share a message that we feel will bring happiness and peace to someone's life. Most people do not have that courage to go to a stranger to share a message of conviction with them. The Lord said that he would use the weak things to bring about his gospel message to all, I think you would agree that most of our missionaries have no experience in Proselytizing and believe it or not, some of them have never read the Bible which is a weakness to them. We do not share our message and say, well, believe it or not it is true, take it or leave it like a lot of other Churches and there missionaries do. We believe that a person can find out for themselves by asking God in the name of Jesus Christ if our message is true or not, we believe that is the only way. I have been a member for thirty years, I was a Jew before I joined this Church, it is a lot to take in, there is no mistake about that, one definitely has to be open minded to our message.

Norman · May 3, 2015

Quatermass said:
Door to door witnessing, like street witnessing is ultimately a waste of time. This isn't just true of Mormons, but of JW's and other assorted beliefs, too. The reason for this is that if someone isn't ready/willing to convert, nothing you say is ever going to change their mind. And if they are ready to convert, they'll probably have found some means of doing so before you ever knock on their door.

Norman: Hi Quatermass, The first century Church was a Proselytizing Church, we have followed that pattern as described by the Apostle Paul in Romans 10:13-17. It takes courage to go to a stranger’s door to share a message that one has. We have a message and a conviction in our heart’s to want to share something that we believe will bring happiness to people. Yes it is not always a productive method of trying to share a message, however, we continue to do that. I think you would agree that our missionaries are young in-experienced men and woman. The average age is 18 to 21 years of age, some of them are shy and some are not and they come from all walks of life. We do not try to force anyone to listen to our message or to read the Book of Mormon. I will admit that there is a lot to take in about our Church. I have been a member now for thirty years, it has brought a lot of happiness and peace into my life. It is not all about numbers, it is just about wanting to share something from our heart.

Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call‍ upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. 14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet‍ of them that preach the gospel‍ of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! 16 But they have not all obeyed‍ the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed‍ our report? 17 So then faith cometh‍ by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Norman · May 3, 2015

Hong Xiuquan said:
Thanks for the reply. It's interesting to hear your comments about door to door witnessing. They must have been trained in your area to do this. I didn't experience what you did. However, I found it really hard to have a conversation with 2 Mormons at once. I would prefer a one to one conversation so I can get my view across. As soon as one guy was finished, his friend was ready to say what he wanted to. They didn't really want to hear what I had to say.But we can't change this. The rule is to go out in twos. I gave up in the end. That is why I like the internet. I've had some good conversations on the worldwide web with Mormons where we both get to say what we want to.

Norman: Hi Hong Xiuquan, I will repeat to you what I stated to Quartermass. The first century Church was a Proselytizing Church, we have followed that pattern as described by the Apostle Paul in Romans 10:13-17. It takes courage to go to a stranger’s door to share a message that one has. We have a message and a conviction in our heart’s to want to share something that we believe will bring happiness to people. Yes it is not always a productive method of trying to share a message, however, we continue to do that. I think you would agree that our missionaries are young in-experienced men and woman. The average age is 18 to 21 years of age, some of them are shy and some are not and they come from all walks of life. We do not try to force anyone to listen to our message or to read the Book of Mormon. I will admit that there is a lot to take in about our Church. I have been a member now for thirty years, it has brought a lot of happiness and peace into my life. It is not all about numbers, it is just about wanting to share something from our heart. Some of our missionaries have not even read the Bible which is a weakness to them. However, they continue on and I often wonder how many people have the courage to knock on a stranger's door to share a message of conviction? Our missionaries leave there family, friends for two long years and are out of there element in some cases.

Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call‍ upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. 14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet‍ of them that preach the gospel‍ of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! 16 But they have not all obeyed‍ the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed‍ our report? 17 So then faith cometh‍ by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Personally, I'm not sure that JS actually saw Jesus and God. In the Bible, no one actually saw God the father completely. The image I see in Christian scripture is more of a being in a kind of blurred spirit form. To have 2 figures that look like men together goes against what I've read in the Bible. Jesus is the figure who always comes in human form. Even in the Old Testament, Christians believe that Christ existed as the word of God and could come in human form and did....to Abraham....and to Daniel's friends in the furnace etc.

Norman: There are events in the Bible where deity and other heavenly messengers appeared. Elijah, John the Baptist, and perhaps others appeared to Peter, James, and John on the Mount of Transfiguration, where the “keys of the kingdom of heaven” (Matt. 16:19) were conferred upon them. There is evidence that they also were endowed with power from on high and instructed in the affairs of the kingdom of God. Matthew (Matt. 17:1–13), Mark (Mark 9:2–13), and Luke (Luke 9:28–36) all give an account of the event. From their accounts in the King James Version of the Bible‍ we learn: 1. Approximately one week after Peter had been told that he would be given the keys of the kingdom of heaven (Matt. 16:19), Jesus took Peter, James, and John “up into a high mountain apart.” (Mark 9:2.) 2. There Jesus was transfigured before them—his face shone as the sun and his raiment became “white as light.” (Matt. 17:2.) 3. Peter, James, and John saw Moses‍ and Elijah (“Elias” is the Greek rendering of the Hebrew Elijah; see Luke 4:25–26; 1 Kgs. 17) talking with Christ. Luke tells us that Moses and Elijah spoke of the Savior’s “decease which he should accomplish at Jerusalem.” (Luke 9:31.) 4. A bright cloud “overshadowed them” and “they feared as they entered into the cloud.” 5. The Father spoke “out of the cloud” saying, “This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.”

In Joseph Smith's own words, he describes what I would call a demonic possession. Who's to say the demon actually left. I've never read in the Bible where a person got possessed prior to seeing Jesus or God or an angel. It's important to look at the Christian scriptures because it is a record of over 1000 years of encounters with God the father, Jesus, the Holy Spirit, angels, and demons. But I believe that Joseph Smith did have a vision. My view is an acceptable Christian perspective. Another more common Christian view is that Joseph Smith was lying. That's not my view.

Norman: Satan was there from the very beginning with Adam and Eve, He always show's up when there is truth to be told but cannot counterfeit truth. Jesus was accussed of being possessed by a Philistine god called Beelzebub. Used as a title for the “chief of the demons,” or Satan. The Pharisees referred to him as the “prince of the devils” Today, people give Satan more power than God. So many claim that visions, revelation, dreams are all from Satan. I am sure Satan is enjoying this as he likes to draw attention to himself by others. The fact is that Satan exist’s but has no more power than God does. As Latter Day-Saints we believe in revelation, visions, dreams even in our day. Know one can prove that Jesus Christ and God the Father appeared to Joseph Smith. The only revealer of truth is the Holy Ghost, it is a witness from spirit to our spirit and there is no greater witness. This reflects the same on the Bible, Book of Mormon and the Quran or any other holy writ.

Matthew 12:24 But when the Pharisees heard it,‍ they said, This fellow‍ doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub‍ the prince of the devils. 25 And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom‍ divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand: 26 And if Satan‍ cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand? 27 And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them‍ out? therefore they shall be your judges. 28 But if I cast out devils‍ by the Spirit‍ of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.

God bless.

Norman · May 3, 2015

silvermoon383 said:
You're right, HongXiuquan, it was incredibly unusual for Heavenly Father to appear personally to Joseph, but not entirely unprecedented. At Christ's baptism there was a voice declaring "This is my beloved Son.". Granted, just a voice but clearly a separate being from Christ.

When you consider the standard teachings that the Father and the Son are the same person (along with the Holy Ghost), to me it makes sense for both to appear to Joseph at the same time, no better way to demonstrate a very critical point about Their nature.

As for the idea of Joseph being possessed, I can see where you get the idea. He was clearly attacked while trying to pray in the grove, but the possessions experienced in the Bible that I can think of off the top of my head werent momentary events that left no lasting effect. Those who had demons cast out of hem by Christ and the prophets and apostles were continually afflicted with the effects.

Norman: Hi silvermoon383, I like your comment, accept that as you stated " Those who had demons cast out of hem by Christ and the prophets and apostles were continually afflicted with the effects." From reading the Bible these people were healed and Satan was there no more, there was no lasting effects on the person (s). However, I believe that a person can again be influenced by Satan only if that person does things that are pleasing to Satan instead of God.

Hong Xiuquan · May 10, 2015

Katzpur said:
Maybe we ought to start this conversation by getting the name of the church you're talking about correct. It's The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, not the Latter Day Saints Church. Note the name "Jesus Christ." Those are the two most important words in the name of our church and you conveniently left them out.

I was actually following your lead. You have got LDS on your profile caption. Yes, I know your name is very important...you guys like to use the full name as on your official name tags. Do you use the abbreviation CJSLDS? I could use that. However, I'm not going to type in your full church name every time I make a comment. LDS or Mormon is quicker to say or type.

Hong Xiuquan · May 10, 2015

Nietzsche said:
I sincerely doubt he did that to snub the LDS. You lot have an incredibly convoluted name(The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints). LDS or Church of Latter-Day Saints is simply convenient. It's a similar thing with JWs and SDAs. You Christians seem to have a penchant for slapping on adjectives.

Yes...I agree with what you say about the abbreviations.

Joseph Smith's First Vision

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