The most random thread in the world:

Heylo all!
(*crowd says back, "hi buttons!"*)

Good to see you all again after that outage this morning.... i truly thought I was in hell! I think we should re-define hell as: "life without RF"
(crowd :clap: ) ... now, now, no applause needed!

....But onto an actual, debatable (or maybe not) topic I've thought about. When I was going through my Christianity to Gnosticism stage, i had MANY questions. (I now have conclusions to all my answers,[or maybe not] so most of the things i ask are out of pure curiosity.) This is my logic:

Christians say, "Yeshua took away all the sin of the world."

and yet we can still commit "sins"... so if Yeshua took away the sin of the world, how are we able to still commit sin?

{There are MANY different branches that stem off from my questioning at this point because thoughts come to me at a mile a minute when i'm rethinking old thoughts... If some of the questions from here on out dont make sense, and probably wont make sense unless you actually understand my locomotive of thought. (tee hee, train, get it?) Please just quote what you dont understand, and ask what i meant by it, and try not to take my opinions or inquiries too harshly. Danke alles! }

In my opinion, and through manly countless hours of thinking on it, sin would not exist if man did not also exist. (well dur ashley) .... Yes, it seems like common knowledge a two year old could grasp, however, by changing the perception on that analysis, (to my perceptions...) you get this question: Well, if man was not around, would sin be an issue?
and my answer: No, because without man, there is no sin.
another question: Therefore, is it possible that man created sin?
and yes, the same answer: yes.

"If we didn't have laws would there still be 'crime'?"
"No."

(RANDOM THOUGHT: "bad" and "wrong" is defined by a culture or population of people... and i dont believe in absolutes...)

....WELL! Why is this important to anyone? ITS NOT! But out of that line of questioning and thinking through the history of civilization, i know that religion, in some form or fashion, has always been around. People need answers to things they cannot explain or understand on their own, and sometimes that is why we have a god, or many gods, or abstract gods(SOME of the time). Most of the worlds religions have good and bad, oppisites, if you will, that co-exist, or are dualistic.... well anyways... the point is that I see it that man made sin... no, not taking the apple from the tree... i mean, man created evil in consiousness and named it "sin" himself. (this is also assuming that you dont take a literalist approach to god... and that you're in my head... so i dont expect any of you to agree with me)

It seems to me that god did not make man in his image, but man made god in ours! What a concept! (though, i'm sure i'm not the first heretical scum to think of it) It seems to me that people just dont want to think of dying alone, and so they created god/s/esses to aid them in this process. SOMETIMES it is not this case, but for my purposes, I'm going to state the above point as fact. copasetic?

RANDOM COMMENT:
(Some of the gods that have been throught centuries are thought personafied, or feelings personafied... it all is varied... but somehow we come to one source behind it all. Some "top god" or oneness....)

... so anyways, (this is contradiction galore!) from one of the books left out of the canon... (cant remember which one... ) It talks about the end of the world, and how Yeshua comes to hell, and releases all of those poor souls who inhabit it. Yeshua tells, Philip, i believe? that in fact, there IS no hell.

I think that heaven and hell are simple concepts - easy to grasp. It's MUCH more comforting to believe that you'll either go to heaven or hell than just dying and wondering... "what's next?" In death, we're alone... but we're together in that we are alone. (wow ashley, i never knew you were THIS messed up!)

SO... my conclusions: There is no sin, there is no god, and there is no hell; there is only self seeking subjective analyzations of the ideas that we have been presented and accepted as truth.

*sigh*

may the dogs tear this thread to shreds! Enjoy taking apart my theories and ideas! (as i know you will )

Victor said:

Before I comment, is there "right and wrong" in your mind? If so, why? If not, why?

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I have opinions of what i find to be wright and wrong for myself. But those are based on how i was raised, and a logical thoughtful approach to a situation... well, the way i see logic anyways.... which isnt really logical at all

I think this was a parable in the Bible. It applies perfectly to what the relationship between Christ and our personal sins. The parable starts out w/ a man(debtor) that borrows money from the another man(creditor). The debtor sees that the creditor won't want the loan back for a while. The debtor buys all of this stuff, and when the creditor calls his loan back, the debtor has no money. The debtor is faced w/ prison and pleads for mercy. The creditor demands justice and demands payment or prison. Now, it would seem that mercy and justice both can't be saticfied. At this point, a third person comes into the story. He is a friend of the debtor. He tells the debtor that he will pay the debt, and the debtor will be in debt to his friend. His friend tells the debtor that he'll prepare a way that the debtor will pay him back and not go to jail. The friend pays the creditor and the debtor is in debt to his friend. You see that mercy and justice is fulfilled. This is the same way w/ Christ. Christ is the friend. He pays the debt of our sins, and He has prepared a way that we can get back w/Him and Heavenly Father(Notice, I said "and", they are 2 separate beings). So, it's not that we can't sin, it's that WHEN we sin, we have a chance to repent because of the sacrifice of Christ. Hope that helps.

Buttons* said:

I have opinions of what i find to be wright and wrong for myself. But those are based on how i was raised, and a logical thoughtful approach to a situation... well, the way i see logic anyways.... which isnt really logical at all

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And round and round we go. :dan:
Your oppositions to standards will always be a stumbling block.

Victor said:

..... a stumbling block.

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To what?

mormonman said:

I think this was a parable in the Bible. It applies perfectly to what the relationship between Christ and our personal sins. The parable starts out w/ a man(debtor) that borrows money from the another man(creditor). The debtor sees that the creditor won't want the loan back for a while. The debtor buys all of this stuff, and when the creditor calls his loan back, the debtor has no money. The debtor is faced w/ prison and pleads for mercy. The creditor demands justice and demands payment or prison. Now, it would seem that mercy and justice both can't be saticfied. At this point, a third person comes into the story. He is a friend of the debtor. He tells the debtor that he will pay the debt, and the debtor will be in debt to his friend. His friend tells the debtor that he'll prepare a way that the debtor will pay him back and not go to jail. The friend pays the creditor and the debtor is in debt to his friend. You see that mercy and justice is fulfilled. This is the same way w/ Christ. Christ is the friend. He pays the debt of our sins, and He has prepared a way that we can get back w/Him and Heavenly Father(Notice, I said "and", they are 2 separate beings). So, it's not that we can't sin, it's that WHEN we sin, we have a chance to repent because of the sacrifice of Christ. Hope that helps.

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i see your point, it's good!

Buttons* said:

When I was going through my Christianity to Gnosticism stage, i had MANY questions.

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Hey Buttons, Are you a Christian Gnostic or a gnostic Gnostic? That is, do you approach this from the viewpoint of there being a DemiUrge who mistakenly thinks that He is creator? Or is it just from the viewpoint that the only way to know God is thru direct experience of God, gnosis.

Buttons* said:

Christians say, "Yeshua took away all the sin of the world."

and yet we can still commit "sins"... so if Yeshua took away the sin of the world, how are we able to still commit sin?

Click to expand...

Christians have a very reasonable explanation for this and I'll leave them to it.

Buttons* said:

In my opinion, and through manly countless hours of thinking on it, sin would not exist if man did not also exist. (well dur ashley) .... Yes, it seems like common knowledge a two year old could grasp, however, by changing the perception on that analysis, (to my perceptions...) you get this question: Well, if man was not around, would sin be an issue?
and my answer: No, because without man, there is no sin.
another question: Therefore, is it possible that man created sin?
and yes, the same answer: yes.

"If we didn't have laws would there still be 'crime'?"
"No."

Click to expand...

Actually, Paul says as much in Romans 7:7-9

What shall we say then? is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead. For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

(Yeah, yeah, I know I'm taking this out of context but I always found that passage amusing. :devil: )

Buttons* said:

(RANDOM THOUGHT: "bad" and "wrong" is defined by a culture or population of people... and i dont believe in absolutes...)

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Ack, I don't know if I have the energy to argue this one again. I agree with you and I also don't agree with you. Short answer is that to say that there is no "bad" and "wrong" is also an absolute.

Buttons* said:

It seems to me that god did not make man in his image, but man made god in ours! What a concept! (though, i'm sure i'm not the first heretical scum to think of it)

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Sorry, you're not the first heretic by far.

Buttons* said:

... so anyways, (this is contradiction galore!) from one of the books left out of the canon... (cant remember which one... ) It talks about the end of the world, and how Yeshua comes to hell, and releases all of those poor souls who inhabit it. Yeshua tells, Philip, i believe? that in fact, there IS no hell.

Click to expand...

I had a similar discussion in my Buddhist sutta class last night. For the sake of argument, let's say that samsara = hell and nibbana = heaven. They're not the same but close enough for these purposes. Samsara is not a metaphysical state. It does not exist in and of itself, but only as how we percieve the word. Once we realize that, we are released from samsara. Samsara is nibbana. Jesus healed lepers by allowing them to realize that they weren't sick in the first place. And released those in hell by allowing them to realize that they were the ones who were keeping themselves there.

Buttons* said:

SO... my conclusions: There is no sin, there is no god, and there is no hell; there is only self seeking subjective analyzations of the ideas that we have been presented and accepted as truth.

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I don't understand the "no god" part. How can one be a Gnostic if there is no god? Unless by god here you are refering to the DemiUrge.

sorry i didnt get to this earlier... i had a bunch of stuff on my plate! *ugh*

lilithu said:

Hey Buttons, Are you a Christian Gnostic or a gnostic Gnostic? That is, do you approach this from the viewpoint of there being a DemiUrge who mistakenly thinks that He is creator? Or is it just from the viewpoint that the only way to know God is thru direct experience of God, gnosis.

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WELL, actually i'm transitioning from Christian Gnostic to Gnostic Gnostic.... maybe Taoist Gnostic... we've yet to see where i end up acutally....

Actually, Paul says as much in Romans 7:7-9

What shall we say then? is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead. For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

(Yeah, yeah, I know I'm taking this out of context but I always found that passage amusing. :devil: )

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Well i dont see how it defeats my purposes.

Ack, I don't know if I have the energy to argue this one again. I agree with you and I also don't agree with you. Short answer is that to say that there is no "bad" and "wrong" is also an absolute.

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I like your short answer, it suits me fine! *smiles*

Sorry, you're not the first heretic by far.

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aww... crap!

I had a similar discussion in my Buddhist sutta class last night. For the sake of argument, let's say that samsara = hell and nibbana = heaven. They're not the same but close enough for these purposes. Samsara is not a metaphysical state. It does not exist in and of itself, but only as how we percieve the word. Once we realize that, we are released from samsara. Samsara is nibbana. Jesus healed lepers by allowing them to realize that they weren't sick in the first place. And released those in hell by allowing them to realize that they were the ones who were keeping themselves there.

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... can i hug you now?

I don't understand the "no god" part. How can one be a Gnostic if there is no god? Unless by god here you are refering to the DemiUrge.

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I mean the Demiurge. *smiles*

OMG! Lilithu i love your posts, thank you SOOOOO much for your contributions to my thread... *hugs*

Anyone else? (I know this is confusing, and i prolly wont get many takers on this discussion.... but i may keep bumping it just to see what happens)

I have a radical interpretation of why mankind still sins...If you are open-minded enough to think about it.

Malkav's Knight said:

I have a radical interpretation of why mankind still sins...If you are open-minded enough to think about it.

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Yeah, but dude...I'm not psychic enough to know what it is.

These are my two working theories on the continuation of "sin" in humanity...

A) Jesus was NOT the Son of God, just an extraordinary good hearted person who took his beliefs a little too far.

B) If Jesus was the Son of God, then he FAILED his task to rid the world of sin. By doubting his fathers plan for him by saying "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" (Matthew 27: 46) while up on the cross at his moment of death, he in esscence, FAILED. He doubted his destiny and therefore died, but not taking sin with him. When the earth shook afterwards (Matthew 27: 54), only then did people begin to belive him. You see, becasue there very people he claimed to be here to save mocked him, in the end, he doubted whether or not God really did care. Because "man" doubted him and in turn Jesus doubted his father, "man" is now forever to live in sin and continue to sin. Which is why Modern Christians believe in attonment, if "sin" had been wiped away, there would be no need for attonment.

Malkav's Knight said:

These are my two working theories on the continuation of "sin" in humanity...

A) Jesus was NOT the Son of God, just an extraordinary ood hearthed person who took his beliefs a little too far.

B) If Jesus was the Son of God, then he FAILED his task to rid the world of sin. By doubting his fathers plan for him by saying "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" (Matthew 27: 46) while up on the cross at his moment of death, he in esscence, FAILED. He doubted his destiny and therefore died, but not taking sin with him. When the earth shook afterwards (Matthew 27: 54), only then did people begin to belive him. You see, becasue there very people he claimed to be here to save mocked him, in the end, he doubted whether or not God really did care. Because "man" doubted him and in turn Jesus doubted his father, "man" is now forever to live in sin and continue to sin. Which is why Modern Christians believe in attonment, if "sin" had been wiped away, there would be no need for attonment.

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Or maybe C:

Jesus gave us the means to take away sin, but we still get to choose whether we will use that means or not.

There was sin before Jesus, sin during Jesus, and sin after Jesus. It doesn't seem the world changed all that radically before during and after, so there must be something else going on with the meaning of "taking away the sins of the world."

Booko said:

Or maybe C:

Jesus gave us the means to take away sin, but we still get to choose whether we will use that means or not.

There was sin before Jesus, sin during Jesus, and sin after Jesus. It doesn't seem the world changed all that radically before during and after, so there must be something else going on with the meaning of "taking away the sins of the world."

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That means to take away "sin" is atonement. However, the problem is that in Hebrews 10, it states that there is no possible way to take away sins since Jesus supposedly already washed away "sin". Hebrews 10: 10 says that "And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all." Then God goes on to make a covenant. "This is teh covenant I will make with them after that time, says the Lord. I will put my laws in their hearts, and I will write them on their minds. Their sins and lawless acts I will remember no more" (Hebrews 10: 16-17). Which takes us back to how "sins" where atoned for before Jesus. By burning offererings. (Numbers 7:16) This combined with Hebrews 10 leads me to believe that Jesus was never meant to wipe "sin" clean from humanity, but simply to be the last physical sacrifice to atone for "sin". Therefore Jesus, though died for "sins" of humanity, was never meant to wipe away sin, but to merely be the last sacrifice so that humans would no longer have to perform sacrifices to atone.

Super Universe said:

Sin has no bearing on the length of our life. Human sin was not wiped away but forgiven.

It's not possible for Jesus to doubt His Father's plan or His own destiny because He was created by God. He came from God directly. He knows God and His own purpose.

There is no punishment from God.

You do what you choose to do just as others do what they choose to do.

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If that were the case, then why would Jesus have questioned his father while he was on the cross?

Buttons* said:

This is my logic:

Christians say, "Yeshua took away all the sin of the world."

and yet we can still commit "sins"... so if Yeshua took away the sin of the world, how are we able to still commit sin?

Click to expand...

to answer that question you need to go to John 16:

''[8] And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
[9] Of sin, because they believe not on me;...

The sin of the world in to not believe in Christ. The atoning death of Christ removed the penalty of that sin for those who believe in Christ.

sandy whitelinger said:

to answer that question you need to go to John 16:

''[8] And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
[9] Of sin, because they believe not on me;...

The sin of the world in to not believe in Christ. The atoning death of Christ removed the penalty of that sin for those who believe in Christ.

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John 16: 8 - 11 only shows that Christ came to cleanse the world of guilt for the 'sins' they commit... Which means that after his death, "sin" still remained and humanity is still free to "sin". Hebrew 10 shows that a covenant was made by God to never send a sacrifice to cleanse guilt again. So, this shows that only those would believed in Jesus at the time of his death were cleansed of guilt for there "sins", not the "sin" itself and everyone who didnt (which was the rest of the world) would remain in "sin" and live in guilt for it.

Ophiuchus said:

As the Son of God, Jesus has rid millions of much of their previous sins. He has touched billions with his grace and his righteousness, and continues to do so. Many lives have been changed for ever, including mine.

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You do realize that before Jesus, God gave the Jews the means to have their sins forgiven, yes?

I have no problem with the idea that many many lives have been changed for the better because of Jesus.

Jesus Christ's work is not complete, there will be many more billions of lives saved after me and this generation. You would not look at a half built house and say that the carpentor is flawed before his work can be complete. So do not judge Christs work as it is not complete yet.

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What is it you think will signal completion? Is it the time of the end stuff? The Return and all?

btw, I don't think I'm in much of a position to judge Christ's work. That would be like my cat rendering its judgment on my choice of color in the living room.

At most, I might make some judgements about the state of institutions within the Church, but that has nothing to do with the Gospel or Christ...just normal folks like us.