• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Is the holy spirit, God, or something else?

Bunyip

Bunyip

pro scapegoat
In considering this point it strikes me that the Holy Spirit exists in order to harmonise different conceptions of God that existed at the time. The Yahweh character represents the new monotheistic notion, Jesus is the messenger and the holy spirit is the link that unites the monotheistic god with the earlier pantheistic notion of God as the all, the everything. And so Christian theologians could present a kind of unified theory to establish a cohesive whole.
 
Kolibri

Kolibri

Well-Known Member
Mountain_Climber said:
My only concern is the many who have fallen prey to the lie that claims they cannot overcome sin, for that is what we must do if we are able as the scriptures teach to tread on serpents.
Click to expand...

That is definitely a lie. We can overcome sin. At the very least we can learn to avoid gross sins completely, even while imperfect. But the Bible never says we will stop sinning altogether just yet.
What is promised is that we would never fall so hard that we cannot get back up and recover.

"No temptation has come upon you except what is common to men. But God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear, but along with the temptation he will also make the way out so you may be able to endure it."
- 1 Corinthians 10:13

He gives power to the tired one
And full might to those lacking strength. (or "dynamic energy.")
- Isaiah 40:29

For the righteous one may fall seven times, and he will get up again,
But the wicked will be made to stumble by calamity.
- Proverbs 24:16

"Is there anyone suffering hardship among you? Let him carry on prayer. Is there anyone in good spirits? Let him sing psalms. Is there anyone sick among you? Let him call the elders of the congregation to him, and let them pray over him, applying oil to him in the name of Jehovah. And the prayer of faith will make the sick one (or possibly, "tired one.") well, and Jehovah will raise him up. Also, if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven. Therefore, openly confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, so that you may be healed. A righteous man's supplication has a powerful effect. (Lit., "has much force when it is at work.")"
- James 5:13-16
 
M

Mountain_Climber

Active Member
OK Tumah,

You no doubt recall the following verse: Hebrews 6:6 "If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame."

I want to explain the roots of that verse to you.

That thought is rooted in the same thought as the following: 1 Samuel 15:22 "And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams."

That is how David knew the following: Psalms 40:6 "Sacrifice and offering thou didst not desire; mine ears hast thou opened: burnt offering and sin offering hast thou not required."

This erroneous belief that says we cannot overcome sin in this life causes the many to be relying upon a sacrifice God did not really desire to have to make on our behalf but did so because he so loved us.

Do we now make a mockery of that loving kindness by turning it into a constant need instead of listening and learning so that those things become past?

Romans 3:25 "Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God."
 
M

Mountain_Climber

Active Member
Kolibri said:
That is definitely a lie. We can overcome sin. At the very least we can learn to avoid gross sins completely, even while imperfect. But the Bible never says we will stop sinning altogether just yet.
What is promised is that we would never fall so hard that we cannot get back up and recover.

"No temptation has come upon you except what is common to men. But God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear, but along with the temptation he will also make the way out so you may be able to endure it."
- 1 Corinthians 10:13

He gives power to the tired one
And full might to those lacking strength. (or "dynamic energy.")
- Isaiah 40:29

For the righteous one may fall seven times, and he will get up again,
But the wicked will be made to stumble by calamity.
- Proverbs 24:16

"Is there anyone suffering hardship among you? Let him carry on prayer. Is there anyone in good spirits? Let him sing psalms. Is there anyone sick among you? Let him call the elders of the congregation to him, and let them pray over him, applying oil to him in the name of Jehovah. And the prayer of faith will make the sick one (or possibly, "tired one.") well, and Jehovah will raise him up. Also, if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven. Therefore, openly confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, so that you may be healed. A righteous man's supplication has a powerful effect. (Lit., "has much force when it is at work.")
- James 5:13-16
Click to expand...

Along the way top learning to be fully mature as Christians, yes. But you too need to consider that post I made for Tumah.

And then we can speak of much orther scripture which shows us this.
 
Kolibri

Kolibri

Well-Known Member
Um...Tumah is an Orthodox Jew. He will readily admit that he is not very familiar with the Christian Greek Scriptures. I do deeply value his input on the Hebrew portion of the texts though.
 
Tumah

Tumah

Veteran Member
Mountain_Climber said:
OK Tumah,

You no doubt recall the following verse: Hebrews 6:6 "If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame."

I want to explain the roots of that verse to you.

That thought is rooted in the same thought as the following: 1 Samuel 15:22 "And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams."

That is how David knew the following: Psalms 40:6 "Sacrifice and offering thou didst not desire; mine ears hast thou opened: burnt offering and sin offering hast thou not required."

This erroneous belief that says we cannot overcome sin in this life causes the many to be relying upon a sacrifice God did not really desire to have to make on our behalf but did so because he so loved us.

Do we now make a mockery of that loving kindness by turning it into a constant need instead of listening and learning so that those things become past?

Romans 3:25 "Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God."
Click to expand...
I am totally unfamiliar with Hebrew, as its not in the Jewish Canon.
And I wasn't following your conversation, I was just correcting your translation of the verse, when I passed it by after Kolibri tagged me. So I don't really know the context of what you are talking about here.
 
Bunyip

Bunyip

pro scapegoat
Tumah said:
I am totally unfamiliar with Hebrew, as its not in the Jewish Canon.
And I wasn't following your conversation, I was just correcting your translation of the verse, when I passed it by after Kolibri tagged me. So I don't really know the context of what you are talking about here.
Click to expand...
Could you please give a brief explanation of how Jewish Orthodoxy sees the holy spirit?
 
M

Mountain_Climber

Active Member
Tumah said:
I am totally unfamiliar with Hebrew, as its not in the Jewish Canon.
And I wasn't following your conversation, I was just correcting your translation of the verse, when I passed it by after Kolibri tagged me. So I don't really know the context of what you are talking about here.
Click to expand...

Kolibri says you are an Orthodox Jew? That then would be of the same as the Pharisees, wouldn't it. Then there are what, three groups to the pharises aren't there. the Esenes' and I forget the other two at this moment.

Tell me a little about yourself.

I just realized my spell check is not working. I am using IE and downloaded a spell check claimed to be usable with IE but something is not working out. LOL
 
Kolibri

Kolibri

Well-Known Member
I think @Tumah made a interesting connection between the words for purity and innocence. It isn't that the child born isn't innocent. It is that the child born isn't clean. As such it needs a ransom as it is born already unholy, tainted with a moral imperfection.

When mankind is perfected and even the last enemy, Adamic death, is done away with, any children born after that time will not need atonement. They will be born both innocent and pure. (1 Cor 15:26)
 
M

Mountain_Climber

Active Member
Kolibri said:
I think @Tumah made a interesting connection between the words for purity and innocence. It isn't that the child born isn't innocent. It is that the child born isn't clean. As such it needs a ransom as it is born already unholy, tainted with a moral imperfection.

When mankind is perfected and even the last enemy, Adamic death, is done away with, any children born after that time will not need atonement. They will be born both innocent and pure. (1 Cor 15:26)
Click to expand...

No you are grasping the wrong thoughts to go with the wrong evidences. I never presented that about Jesus to show he was born innocent or not innocent but onlt to show how he kept himself from sin.

You wonder all over in your unwillingness to actually hear so that you might be able to accept.
 
Tumah

Tumah

Veteran Member
Mountain_Climber said:
Kolibri says you are an Orthodox Jew? That then would be of the same as the Pharisees, wouldn't it. Then there are what, three groups to the pharises aren't there. the Esenes' and I forget the other two at this moment.
Click to expand...
I think all Jews today are descendants of the Pharisees as the other sects pretty much died out.
Essenes are not a sect of Pharisees, they like the Saducees are their own sects.

Mountain_Climber said:
Tell me a little about yourself.
Click to expand...
I like watching the sunset and not eating pig..?
That's a pretty vague question.

Kolibri said:
I think @Tumah made a interesting connection between the words for purity and innocence. It isn't that the child born isn't innocent. It is that the child born isn't clean. As such it needs a ransom as it is born already unholy, tainted with a moral imperfection.

When mankind is perfected and even the last enemy, Adamic death, is done away with, any children born after that time will not need atonement. They will be born both innocent and pure. (1 Cor 15:26)
Click to expand...
If a child wasn't born pure, wouldn't there be purification Laws as there is for his mother?
 
Kolibri

Kolibri

Well-Known Member
Tumah said:
If a child wasn't born pure, wouldn't there be purification Laws as there is for his mother?
Click to expand...

I will give this some thought.

What I do know is that I need atonement, I know that I still sin in relatively minor ways everyday, often in ways I am not even aware of. I still need some sort of reconciliation with God. I know I will have more things to ask forgiveness over tomorrow. I can't say at what age I was when I committed my first personal sin. What I sense is that it was inevitable - and eventually I committed a few doozies. It is clear to me that it would have been impossible for me to earn life by avoiding sin altogether - even with perfect education.

Part of Paul's argument was that the Law Covenant make our transgressions obvious as no imperfect man could keep it perfectly, and thus earn everlasting life. His argument was that the Law by its very nature made our weakness towards sin crystal clear even to ourselves. (Galatians 3:19; Romans 3:20)

The argument I am following is that the principle of Haggai 2:12-13 applies to human children. We lost our birthright to the capacity to never sin in the first place when our first human parents became unclean in God's eyes.
 
Tumah

Tumah

Veteran Member
Kolibri said:
I will give this some thought.

What I do know is that I need atonement, I know that I still sin in relatively minor ways everyday, often in ways I am not even aware of. I still need some sort of reconciliation with God. I know I will have more things to ask forgiveness over tomorrow. I can't say at what age I was when I committed my first personal sin. What I sense is that it was inevitable - and eventually I committed a few doozies. It is clear to me that it would have been impossible for me to earn life by avoiding sin altogether - even with perfect education.

Part of Paul's argument was that the Law Covenant make our transgressions obvious as no imperfect man could keep it perfectly, and thus earn everlasting life. His argument was that the Law by its very nature made our weakness towards sin crystal clear even to ourselves. (Galatians 3:19; Romans 3:20)

The argument I am following is that the principle of Haggai 2:12-13 applies to human children. We lost our birthright to the capacity to never sin in the first place when our first human parents became unclean in God's eyes.
Click to expand...
I'm not sure what Haggai 2:12-13 has to do with anything.
 
M

Mountain_Climber

Active Member
"If one bear holy flesh in the skirt of his garment, and with his skirt do touch bread, or pottage, or wine, or oil, or any meat, shall it be holy? And the priests answered and said, No."

That is about bad association and compares to: 1 Corinthians 15:33 "Be not deceived: Evil companionships corrupt good morals." (ASV)

The skirt of his garment being like taking something unholy to ones bosom. From that point on anything that is draw to his or her bosom is only corrupted by his or her bosom.
 
Kolibri

Kolibri

Well-Known Member
Tumah said:
I'm not sure what Haggai 2:12-13 has to do with anything.
Click to expand...

yeah. It is what happens when I start musing over things I have recently read w/o really doing any research yet.

Considering my openness in regards to my religious affiliation, this may not be the place for "thinking out-loud". I am bound to misrepresent if I am not careful to say specifically when I am doing so.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top