(Any Catholics) Come as you are.

kepha31 · Apr 30, 2015

Carlita said:
Id have to refer to my catcheism.. Id have to enlarge it when I am at desktop. Im on my smart phone. I got the impression at Church that the Church doesnt consider Christians full christians.

Since, one, they havent recieved the sacraments through the Church and two,

They say it here in the easter vigil calender

"We welcome our fellow Christians to this celebration of the Eucharist as our brothers and sisters. We pray that our common baptism and the action of the Holy Spirit in this Eucharist will draw us closer to one another and begin to dispel the sad divisions which separate us. We pray that these will lessen and finally disappear, in keeping with Christ's prayer for us 'that they may all be one'. Because Catholics believe that the celebration of the Eucharist is a sign of the reality of the oneness of faith, life, and worship, members of those churches with whom we are not yet fully united are ordinarily not admitted to Communion. Eucharistic sharing in exceptional circumstances by other Christians requires permission according to the directives of the diocesan bishop and the provisions of canon law..."
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Without partaking of the Eucharist, how can one say a Christian is a full christian? That would mean no one needs to be Catholic. The church doesnt teach that.

True, but your quote above says they are "ordinarily not admitted to Communion", nowhere in any Church document does it say that anyone in separate communities are not Christian just because they cannot receive the Eucharist. You are reading into your own quotes what is not there.

790 Believers who respond to God's word and become members of Christ's Body, become intimately united with him: "In that body the life of Christ is communicated to those who believe, and who, through the sacraments, are united in a hidden and real way to Christ in his Passion and glorification."220 This is especially true of Baptism, which unites us to Christ's death and Resurrection, and the Eucharist, by which "really sharing in the body of the Lord, . . . we are taken up into communion with him and with one another."221
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p123a9p2.htm
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Implied or explicidly stated, the Church is not calling other christians christian until they take the sacraments and become in union with the Church.

Your opinion is in error, in direct conflict with Catechism paragraph 818, as found in post #15.

Its not bad, in itself. I just disagree that "only" through the Church one can obtain these sacraments sense they are from God.

God commissions the Church to administer the sacraments. The Eucharist and a valid priesthood are constitutional elements that are required to make a Church. I don't understand why you think the Church should give out sacraments to members of outside communities that don't accept either. That makes no sense. When they are enlightened by God as to what the Eucharist really is, and learn they can't have it, it motivates them to become Catholic. The Eucharist is also the #1 reason for ex-Catholics to come home.

As long as there is a division on which "christian" can take the sacraments one side will always say they arent fully christian until they take the Eucharist while the other side will say Catholics are not fully christian until they break from physical ritual means of worship in favor for only spiritual means, there will be a gap.

The Catholic Church didn't separate from anyone or any group at any time. I don't think you understand this.
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With baptism, if that is the only thing that makes one christian, why take the other sacraments (rhetorical question)

Baptism is a Catholic act, which is why it is accepted from other churches/communities, provided the biblical formula is used. The Catholic Church does not have the corner market on grace and truth, what she has is the fullness of the means of salvation. That does NOT mean other churches/communities have no means at all. I think I made that clear in post #15

Basically, I believe that scripture says the sacraments come from God not the apostles.

Chapter and verse, please.

So, if one christian wants to God directly to confess and recieve absolution how is that different than going to a priest who is asking God to do the same as the christian did for himself? Both Catholic and protestant are recieving the sacraments from God.

Catholics confess directly to God all the time, especially at Mass. But non-Catholic Christians cannot receive absolution because none of there confessors (minister, psychologist, psychiatrist) have been legitimately ordained.
You are missing out on the basics of the Sacrament of Reconciliation, otherwise you would not be making such fundamentalist assertions.. Please be enlightened:
The Forgiveness of Sins | Catholic Answers
Is Confession in Scripture? | Catholic Answers

The Church is the body of Christ:

790 Believers who respond to God's word and become members of Christ's Body, become intimately united with him
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I agree that any christian should take the sacraments through the Church. I also believe that the sacraments are recieved by God. So if they wish not to go through the "physical" Church they are still united in Christ in spirit.

Who has the right to deny them this based on who administors the sacraments?

The Church has the responsibility to see that those receiving the sacraments do so properly. The Church slackened on her responsibility in the '60's by admitting homosexual men into the seminary, leading to the worst crisis in the history of the Church. Certain outside Christians don't believe anything on this earth can be sacred, nor do they accept the teaching authority of the Church, so why should the Church liberally confect her sacraments to anybody with no qualification? Sacraments are sacred. Dishing them out to anybody would be a sacrilege, not a sacrament.

"So if they wish not to go through the "physical" Church they are still united in Christ in spirit."

That's fine, but it only goes so far.
30. The lack of a definitive teaching authority in Protestant (as with the Catholic magisterium) makes many individual Protestants think that they have a direct line to God, notwithstanding all of Christian Tradition and the history of biblical exegesis (a "Bible, Holy Spirit and me" mentality). Such people are generally under-educated theologically, unteachable, lack humility, and have no business making presumed "infallible" statements about the nature of Christianity.
37. Too many brands of Protestantism tend to oppose matter and spirit, favoring the latter, and sometimes exhibit Gnostic or Docetic strains of thought in this regard.

38. Catholicism upholds in the fullest way the "incarnational principle," wherein Jesus became flesh and thus raised flesh and matter to new spiritual heights.

39. Some strains of Protestantism (particularly evangelicalism and pentecostalism and especially the Baptists) greatly limit or disbelieve in sacramentalism, which is simply the extension of the incarnational principle and the belief that matter can convey grace. Some sects (e.g., Quakers and the Salvation Army) reject all sacraments.

41. Many Protestants tend to separate life into categories of "spiritual" and "carnal," as if God is not Lord of all of life. They forget that all non-sinful endeavors are ultimately spiritual.
Biblical Evidence for Catholicism: 150 Reasons Why I am a Catholic (Revised)

kepha31 · Apr 30, 2015

lostwanderingsoul said:
Jesus said to " do this in memory of Me" He did not say you must confess or be free of sin or anything else. just do it to remember Him. all this other stuff was added later by someone other than Jesus and has no meaning in regard to what Jesus wanted.

" do this in memory of Me" has to do with the Eucharist, and instituting the priesthood.
Confessing sins to a priest is another sacrament.
"all this other stuff was added later " is a theory by Modernists whose ultimate goal is to deny the Resurrection. Modernism is the synthesis of all heresies, a dominating viewpoint on this forum.

" do this in memory of Me"
Luke 22:19; 1 Cor. 11:24-25 - the translation of Jesus' words of consecration is "touto poieite tan eman anamnasin." Jesus literally said "offer this as my memorial sacrifice." The word “poiein” (do) refers to offering a sacrifice (see, e.g., Exodus 29:38-39, where God uses the same word – poieseis – regarding the sacrifice of the lambs on the altar). The word “anamnesis” (remembrance) also refers to a sacrifice which is really or actually made present in time by the power of God, as it reminds God of the actual event (see, e.g., Heb. 10:3; Num. 10:10). It is not just a memorial of a past event, but a past event made present in time.

In other words, the “sacrifice” is the “memorial” or “reminder.” If the Eucharist weren’t a sacrifice, Luke would have used the word “mnemosunon” (which is the word used to describe a nonsacrificial memorial. See, for example, Matt. 26:13; Mark 14:9; and especially Acts 10:4). So there are two memorials, one sacrificial (which Jesus instituted), and one non-sacrificial.

Lev. 24:7 - the word "memorial" in Hebrew in the sacrificial sense is "azkarah" which means to actually make present (see Lev. 2:2,9,16;5:12;6:5; Num.5:26 where “azkarah” refers to sacrifices that are currently offered and thus present in time). Jesus' instruction to offer the bread and wine (which He changed into His body and blood) as a "memorial offering" demonstrates that the offering of His body and blood is made present in time over and over again.

Num. 10:10 - in this verse, "remembrance" refers to a sacrifice, not just a symbolic memorial. So Jesus' command to offer the memorial “in remembrance” of Him demonstrates that the memorial offering is indeed a sacrifice currently offered. It is a re-presentation of the actual sacrifice made present in time. It is as if the curtain of history is drawn and Calvary is made present to us.

Mal. 1:10-11 - Jesus' command to his apostles to offer His memorial sacrifice of bread and wine which becomes His body and blood fulfills the prophecy that God would reject the Jewish sacrifices and receive a pure sacrifice offered in every place. This pure sacrifice of Christ is sacramentally re-presented from the rising of the sun to its setting in every place, as Malachi prophesied.

Sacrament of Reconciliation

Lev. 5:4-6; 19:21-22 - even under the Old Covenant, God used priests to forgive and atone for the sins of others.
Num. 5:7 - this shows the historical practice of publicly confessing sins, and making public restitution.
Neh. 9:2-3 - the Israelites stood before the assembly and confessed sins publicly and interceded for each other.
Sir. 4:26 - God tells us not to be ashamed to confess our sins, and not to try to stop the current of a river. Anyone who has experienced the sacrament of reconciliation understands the import of this verse.
Baruch 1:14 - again, this shows that the people made confession in the house of the Lord, before the assembly.

Confessing sins was not an invention of the Catholic Church, it began in certain forms, with God's commands to the Jews.

John 20:21 - before He grants them the authority to forgive sins, Jesus says to the apostles, "as the Father sent me, so I send you." As Christ was sent by the Father to forgive sins, so Christ sends the apostles and their successors forgive sins.

John 20:22 - the Lord "breathes" on the apostles, and then gives them the power to forgive and retain sins. The only other moment in Scripture where God breathes on man is in Gen. 2:7, when the Lord "breathes" divine life into man. When this happens, a significant transformation takes place.

John 20:23 - Jesus says, "If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven. If you retain the sins of any, they are retained." In order for the apostles to exercise this gift of forgiving sins, the penitents must orally confess their sins to them because the apostles are not mind readers. The text makes this very clear.

Matt. 9:8 - this verse shows that God has given the authority to forgive sins to "men." Hence, those Protestants who acknowledge that the apostles had the authority to forgive sins (which this verse demonstrates) must prove that this gift ended with the apostles. Otherwise, the apostles' successors still possess this gift. Where in Scripture is the gift of authority to forgive sins taken away from the apostles or their successors? NOWHERE

Matt. 9:6; Mark 2:10 - Christ forgave sins as a man (not God) to convince us that the "Son of man" has authority to forgive sins on earth.

Luke 5:24 - Luke also points out that Jesus' authority to forgive sins is as a man, not God. The Gospel writers record this to convince us that God has given this authority to men. This authority has been transferred from Christ to the apostles and their successors.

Matt. 18:18 - the apostles are given authority to bind and loose. The authority to bind and loose includes administering and removing the temporal penalties due to sin. The Jews understood this since the birth of the Church.

John 20:22-23; Matt. 18:18 - the power to remit/retain sin is also the power to remit/retain punishment due to sin. If Christ's ministers can forgive the eternal penalty of sin, they can certainly remit the temporal penalty of sin (which is called an "indulgence").

2 Cor. 2:10 - Paul forgives in the presence of Christ (some translations refer to the presences of Christ as "in persona Christi"). Some say that this may also be a reference to sins.

2 Cor. 5:18 - the ministry of reconciliation was given to the ambassadors of the Church. This ministry of reconciliation refers to the sacrament of reconciliation, also called the sacrament of confession or penance.

James 5:15-16 - in verse 15 we see that sins are forgiven by the priests in the sacrament of the sick. This is another example of man's authority to forgive sins on earth. Then in verse 16, James says “Therefore, confess our sins to one another,” in reference to the men referred to in verse 15, the priests of the Church.

1 Tim. 2:5 - Christ is the only mediator, but He was free to decide how His mediation would be applied to us. The Lord chose to use priests of God to carry out His work of forgiveness.
Scripture Catholic - SACRAMENT OF CONFESSION & FORGIVENESS OF SINS

Confess sins directly to God, yes, by all means. But non-Catholic Christians have no right to criticize this thoroughly biblical sacrament, even if they have no priesthood.

Unveiled Artist · May 1, 2015

I read all you said. Something stook out. Youd like me to proove the sacraments come from God? I know I listed them all from scripture for a JW which is a different debate since she doesnt believe in the Church. As a Catholic, why would ask to proove that the sacraments come from God?

If they did not, to who do you believe is the Eucharist? Who do you confess to and are asked to confess to take the Eucharist? Who bapizes you? (these are rethorical questions could answer if you like). For a Catholic to ask this, that doesnt make sensse. If you need verses from scripture, Ill try to find them in the forrmer post I made to a JW here.
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The Church is just saying they are not fully Christian, in union with the Church hence Christ, because they (non catholicn christians) do not believe in the nature of the Eucharist. Many christians have not been baptized. Some christian churches use grape juice rather than wine, which I believe is a personal insult to Christ.

The catchism itself talks explicidly that being in union with the Church and Christ through its sacraments, makes one Catholic. You are in union with Christ. That is what it means to be a Christian.

Its more common sense. Jesus is in the Eucharist. A non Catholic are not addmitted communion. They cannot recieve Christ through the Eucharist. What makes onena christian? Christ. From what I learned from the Church, that is what makes one Christian. You MUST be baptized; and you MUST recieve Christ?

Unless you say Catholics are not christian, I dont understand how you out of many Catholics I speak with, dont understand what Im saying.

In other words, in a Catholic point of view, how is one fully Christian given they are Not in union with God's physical Church? The Church doesnt deny they have a relationship with Christ. They just need to take the sacraments to be in FULL union with Him.

kepha31 said:
True, but your quote above says they are "ordinarily not admitted to Communion", nowhere in any Church document does it say that anyone in separate communities are not Christian just because they cannot receive the Eucharist. You are reading into your own quotes what is not there.

790 Believers who respond to God's word and become members of Christ's Body, become intimately united with him: "In that body the life of Christ is communicated to those who believe, and who, through the sacraments, are united in a hidden and real way to Christ in his Passion and glorification."220 This is especially true of Baptism, which unites us to Christ's death and Resurrection, and the Eucharist, by which "really sharing in the body of the Lord, . . . we are taken up into communion with him and with one another."221
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p123a9p2.htm
--

Your opinion is in error, in direct conflict with Catechism paragraph 818, as found in post #15.

God commissions the Church to administer the sacraments. The Eucharist and a valid priesthood are constitutional elements that are required to make a Church. I don't understand why you think the Church should give out sacraments to members of outside communities that don't accept either. That makes no sense. When they are enlightened by God as to what the Eucharist really is, and learn they can't have it, it motivates them to become Catholic. The Eucharist is also the #1 reason for ex-Catholics to come home.

The Catholic Church didn't separate from anyone or any group at any time. I don't think you understand this.
--
Baptism is a Catholic act, which is why it is accepted from other churches/communities, provided the biblical formula is used. The Catholic Church does not have the corner market on grace and truth, what she has is the fullness of the means of salvation. That does NOT mean other churches/communities have no means at all. I think I made that clear in post #15

Chapter and verse, please.
Catholics confess directly to God all the time, especially at Mass. But non-Catholic Christians cannot receive absolution because none of there confessors (minister, psychologist, psychiatrist) have been legitimately ordained.
You are missing out on the basics of the Sacrament of Reconciliation, otherwise you would not be making such fundamentalist assertions.. Please be enlightened:
The Forgiveness of Sins | Catholic Answers
Is Confession in Scripture? | Catholic Answers

The Church has the responsibility to see that those receiving the sacraments do so properly. The Church slackened on her responsibility in the '60's by admitting homosexual men into the seminary, leading to the worst crisis in the history of the Church. Certain outside Christians don't believe anything on this earth can be sacred, nor do they accept the teaching authority of the Church, so why should the Church liberally confect her sacraments to anybody with no qualification? Sacraments are sacred. Dishing them out to anybody would be a sacrilege, not a sacrament.

That's fine, but it only goes so far.
30. The lack of a definitive teaching authority in Protestant (as with the Catholic magisterium) makes many individual Protestants think that they have a direct line to God, notwithstanding all of Christian Tradition and the history of biblical exegesis (a "Bible, Holy Spirit and me" mentality). Such people are generally under-educated theologically, unteachable, lack humility, and have no business making presumed "infallible" statements about the nature of Christianity.
37. Too many brands of Protestantism tend to oppose matter and spirit, favoring the latter, and sometimes exhibit Gnostic or Docetic strains of thought in this regard.

38. Catholicism upholds in the fullest way the "incarnational principle," wherein Jesus became flesh and thus raised flesh and matter to new spiritual heights.

39. Some strains of Protestantism (particularly evangelicalism and pentecostalism and especially the Baptists) greatly limit or disbelieve in sacramentalism, which is simply the extension of the incarnational principle and the belief that matter can convey grace. Some sects (e.g., Quakers and the Salvation Army) reject all sacraments.

41. Many Protestants tend to separate life into categories of "spiritual" and "carnal," as if God is not Lord of all of life. They forget that all non-sinful endeavors are ultimately spiritual.
Biblical Evidence for Catholicism: 150 Reasons Why I am a Catholic (Revised)

(Any Catholics) Come as you are.

kepha31

Active Member

kepha31

Active Member

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member