Is the holy spirit, God, or something else?

moorea944 · Apr 29, 2015

OK, I believe we see eye to eye on most of what you said, but when you say, "In order to condemn sin, it had to be someone like us. Someone who "shared" our nature", do you mean that Jesus had sin in his nature, or do you mean only that by his like nature to our he could choose to sin by temptation just as we?

I mean that Jesus has our nature. He was prone to sin like us. Could Jesus has sinned if he wanted to? Yes, but he chose not to. He didnt have sin in him, he just had our sin nature.

Also I notice you said, "He didnt take on the nature of angels (immortality) but the seed of Abraham." How does that thought that the angels are immortal, mesh with the following scripture:

1 Timothy 6:16 "Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

This verse is talking about God, not Jesus. God was the only one who has always had immortality. Angels were given that. Jesus was also given that too, along with his glorification.

Mountain_Climber · Apr 29, 2015

atpollard said:
In Context:

Romans 8
1 Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in the flesh, 4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

5 Those who live according to the flesh have their minds set on what the flesh desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. 6 The mind governed by the flesh is death, but the mind governed by the Spirit is life and peace. 7 The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. 8 Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God.

9 You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ. 10 But if Christ is in you, then even though your body is subject to death because of sin, the Spirit gives life because of righteousness. 11 And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of his Spirit who lives in you.

12 Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. 13 For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.

14 For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God. 15 The Spirit you received does not make you slaves, so that you live in fear again; rather, the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to sonship. And by him we cry, “Abba, Father.”16 The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children. 17 Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.

The "Spirit" of Romans 8:1-17 very much appears to be a person to me ... a person who leads and guides and empowers ... a person who lights the way from sin to Christ and ultimately to the Father.
From my perspective, you mistake the fact that the person of the Holy Spirit also empowers the minds of human beings to see the truth, the flesh of human beings to resist sin and the souls of human beings to have a relationship with God to mean that HE is only a power ... the Holy Spirit has power and gives power, but He is also so much more.

I can see why you might think that I, quote, "mistake the fact that the person of the Holy Spirit also empowers the minds of human beings to see the truth, the flesh of human beings to resist sin ....", but no, I am way ahead of that laboring, having long ago thought that way. Seeing this was a slow process for me and I expect it will be for most others, too.

The tragedy of viewing it the way you do is that it puts our responsibility off on God. By reason of that very way of thinking many claim that the reason they do not defeat certain sins is that God sees it is not their time for it. And there are many other subtle little ways that one wrong conclusion produces other misconceptions to our minds.

You are missing out on the vital role that love plays in all of this. Love is the power to be faithful that God gives us.

1 John 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

John 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

John 14:24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

Because love is the power that drives our faithfulness to be complete, our being faithful proves our love. That is why Jesus told us what he did there in John 14:21-24.

That is why our faithful works follow us: Revelation 14:13 "And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them."

And that is why the responsibility does rest upon us where it belongs so that God is justified to judge us by our works when those works were not faithfully done:

Repentance is in fact impossible apart from works: Acts 26:20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.

Ecclesiastes 12:14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Revelation 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

That is why this following is the critical factor: 2 Thessalonians 3:5 And the Lord direct your hearts into the love of God, and into the patient waiting for Christ.

That direction is by education in his word, which word has the spirit upon it. John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

Take a look at what the first half of the following verse is really telling us: 2 Corinthians 5:14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:

Notice how Weymouth New Testament renders that first part: 2 Corinthians 5:14 For the love of Christ overmasters us ....

Bible in Basic English: 2 Corinthians 5:14 For it is the love of Christ which is moving us;

"constraineth" - sunecho - to hold together, i.e. to compress (the ears, with a crowd or siege) or arrest (a prisoner); figuratively, to compel, perplex, afflict, preoccupy:

No, it is not a person called the holy spirit that does this for us but the spirit of godly love: 2 Timothy 1:7 For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but [the spirit] of power, and [the spirit] of love, and [the spirit] of a sound mind.

Jude 1:21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

atpollard · Apr 29, 2015

Thank you, those were real answers to honest questions.
If I could ask for a brief clarification on two points:

moorea944 said:
I think I already stated that. First of all, I dont think he was a Greek god like Hercules. Well, you see, Hercules wasnt real. Jesus was. But I'm sure you already know that. The bible tells us that Jesus was a man like us, yet God was his father. David was also his father too. Scripture tells us that. Do I believe Jesus was a god or God Himself? lol no, of course not. There is only one God. Not three. And no other Gods beside him.
So what does the "son of God and the son of man" mean?

He had to be the Son of God because no man left to himself had or could achieve spotless righteousness as required by God as the basis for forgiveness. Perfection was attained by Jesus because 1. he inherited from his father a unique capacity for spiritual things, and 2. he was given unhindered access to God and he chose to accept it. Sonship of the Father conveyed an insight, an intimacy with his God, an unequalled knowledge of what was in man, fitting him eninently to be the Saviour - if only he chose to be so. Sonship did not make him sinless, but made sinlessness possible.

He had to be the son of man in order to inherit the consequences of Adam's transgression, a weak and mortal nature prone to sin, so that he might condemn sin. He had to be tempted in all points like us and yet be sinless in order to be the Saviour. Sin could only be condemned by one possessing the same flesh with its tendency to sin.

Would it be fair to say that you view Jesus like Adam before the fall?
(Without sin and able to be friends with God, but still human and free to choose for himself whether to sin or not to sin.)

It doesn't "overturn" the death sentence. Jesus was not a substitute. He didn't die so we don't have to.

When God pronounced the death sentence on mankind in Eden He was upholding His own righteous law. If He were to waive this sentence, He would, in effect, be saying that sin does not really matter after all. So the sentence of Eden stands and God requires that each of us must die.
Sooner or later death overtakes all men: but God encourages us to recognize our own degraded and hopeless condition and anticipate the death sentence. We must volunteer for crucifixion.

Now think of Christ. He is our representative, who identified himself with the human race in suffering, in temptation, in mortality. Although he never sinned, he carried the great burden of other people's sins, with their painful and shameful consequences. Isaiah the prophet expresses it like this:
"He was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth" (Isa. 53:5-7).
The question is sometimes asked: Why did Jesus have to die such a painful and shameful death? One reason is because he bore the sins of others: he bore the sins of all who identify themselves with him. The pain and the shame of the cross are the just reward for their deeds. The penitent thief recognized that he deserved crucifixion (Luke 23:40,41), and so must all true Christians. By crucifixion our Lord placarded before the world what human nature deserves.

Christ is our representative. He identified himself with human nature in life and in death. And we must identify ourselves with him. With him we must die; and with him we shall be raised to a life over which death has no power.

What happens to those who don't?
'Hell' or 'Nothingness' (or something else).

Again, thank you for your time and effort to explain your beliefs in more detail.

Mountain_Climber · Apr 29, 2015

moorea944 said:
I mean that Jesus has our nature. He was prone to sin like us. Could Jesus has sinned if he wanted to? Yes, but he chose not to. He didnt have sin in him, he just had our sin nature.

This verse is talking about God, not Jesus. God was the only one who has always had immortality. Angels were given that. Jesus was also given that too, along with his glorification.

Try again. That verse clearly is speaking about Jesus. Even Jehovah's Witnesses admit that.

atpollard · Apr 29, 2015

Mountain_Climber said:
I can see why you might think that I, quote, "mistake the fact that the person of the Holy Spirit also empowers the minds of human beings to see the truth, the flesh of human beings to resist sin ....", but no, I am way ahead of that laboring, having long ago thought that way. Seeing this was a slow process for me and I expect it will be for most others, too.

Since you have evolved spiritually so far beyond me, I will just patiently wait until you evolve full circle back to Calvinism.

[It was a joke.]

Good luck working out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

Mountain_Climber · Apr 29, 2015

atpollard said:
Since you have evolved spiritually so far beyond me, I will just patiently wait until you evolve full circle back to Calvinism. [It was a joke.]

Good luck working out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

I understand that this can be stressful emotionally, but you will be alright.

Just suspend quick judgments and patiently trust that what we do not know, God is able to teach us.

When it comes to those of us who are trying, God is not nearly as critical of us as many imagine. Perfect love casts out fear, and whoever fears God in a morbid sense does not yet know his love. Which would well explain why most of them have little power to resist sin and can be seen sinning over and over again.

Comparing 2 Corinthians 7:15; Ephesians 6:5; Philippians 2:12 helps us better understand that fear Paul speaks of at Philippians 2:12 is a kind of reverence rather than a morbid fear.

So if you would but leave out the word, "luck", your advice would be actually good. Don't depend on luck. Depend on God's love and faithfully learning that love. That is where your true power will be found.

Kolibri · Apr 29, 2015

Mountain_Climber said:
Did Jesus wear sinful flesh and simply not sin even though he wore sinful flesh? Is that what the following scripture tells us:

Romans 8:3 "For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh.."

Simpliest answer. "likeness" does not equate with "is". John 1:14 clarifies what Jesus was.

"So the Word became flesh and resided among us, and we had a view of his glory, a glory such as belongs to an only-begotten son from a father; and he was full of divine favor (or "undeserved kindness.") and truth." - John 1:14

Flesh w/o sin is "like" sinful flesh, but the two are not identical. Unlike the rest of mankind starting with Cain, Jesus was not born weak. Though tempted and capable of sin, he was not condemned to eventually sin as we are.

Kolibri · Apr 29, 2015

atpollard said:
Would it be fair to say that you view Jesus like Adam before the fall?

Yes, except I also see Jesus as being the only human with a pre-human existence. Before becoming human he was the first spirit son of God. Because of the billions of years just the material part of our universe has been around, Jesus already had at least that much time to build a much closer relationship with his Father than just a friend. He truly was the beginning of his Father's family.

Mountain_Climber · Apr 29, 2015

Kolibri said:
Yes, except I also see Jesus as being the only human with a pre-human existence. Before becoming human he was the first spirit son of God. Because of the billions of years just the material part of our universe has been around, Jesus already had at least that much time to build a much closer relationship with his Father than just a friend. He truly was the beginning of his Father's family.

I agree with that.

Mountain_Climber · Apr 29, 2015

Kolibri said:
Simpliest answer. "likeness" does not equate with "is". John 1:14 clarifies what Jesus was.

"So the Word became flesh and resided among us, and we had a view of his glory, a glory such as belongs to an only-begotten son from a father; and he was full of divine favor (or "undeserved kindness.") and truth." - John 1:14

Flesh w/o sin is "like" sinful flesh, but the two are not identical. Unlike the rest of mankind starting with Cain, Jesus was not born weak. Though tempted and capable of sin, he was not condemned to eventually sin as we are.

We are very close there, in the sense that Jesus had not corrupted himself like all other men who were born to a world wherein all man's knowledge had been polluted of sin, leaving them with little or no chance to avoid learning sin.

Kolibri · Apr 29, 2015

Mountain_Climber said:
We are very close there, in the sense that Jesus had not corrupted himself like all other men who were born to a world wherein all man's knowledge had been polluted of sin, leaving them with little or no chance to avoid learning sin.

I had an interesting thought, from the point of Jesus mother Mary, he as a 12 year old "sinned" or missed the mark of her will for him when he got left behind in Jerusalem. "Child, why did you treat us this way? Here your father and I have been frantically looking for you." You can imagine her tone of voice after looking for him for 4 days. (One to go back to Jerusalem when he was missed and 3 days searching for him.) Even after he replied the account says "they did not understand what he was saying to them." (Luke 2:48,50).

But it is with regards to his Father's will that determines what is sin and what is not, not Mary's or anyone elses. I am certain Mary knew the difference. It was merely a thought but it may illustrate a point. Sin is based on how we individually measure up to God's standards for humans. While we can learn what sin is as we grow up, we sin, not because it is merely part of the world. We sin because our body/mind/energy is not capable of perfect obedience to Jehovah's will. For us it is as Paul wrote.

"I find, then, this law in my case: When I wish to do what is right, what is bad is present with me. I really delight in the law of God according to the man I am within, but I see in my body (Lit., "members.") another law warring against the law of my mind and leading me captive to sin's law that is in my body. Miserable man that I am! Who will rescue me from the body undergoing this death?" - Romans 7:21-24

Jesus may have had to deal with sources of temptation but he was never captive to sin's law. He had no reason to be miserable in this way. Unlike the rest of us, Jesus was not born with the human blueprint compromised because of Adam's uncleanness. (Rom 5:12)

Mountain_Climber · Apr 29, 2015

Kolibri said:
I had an interesting thought, from the point of Jesus mother Mary, he as a 12 year old "sinned" or missed the mark of her will for him when he got left behind in Jerusalem. "Child, why did you treat us this way? Here your father and I have been frantically looking for you." You can imagine her tone of voice after looking for him for 4 days. (One to go back to Jerusalem when he was missed and 3 days searching for him.) Even after he replied the account says "they did not understand what he was saying to them." (Luke 2:48,50).

But it is with regards to his Father's will that determines what is sin and what is not, not Mary's or anyone elses. I am certain Mary knew the difference. It was merely a thought but it may illustrate a point. Sin is based on how we individually measure up to God's standards for humans. While we can learn what sin is as we grow up, we sin, not because it is merely part of the world. We sin because our body/mind/energy is not capable of perfect obedience to Jehovah's will. For us it is as Paul wrote.

"I find, then, this law in my case: When I wish to do what is right, what is bad is present with me. I really delight in the law of God according to the man I am within, but I see in my body (Lit., "members.") another law warring against the law of my mind and leading me captive to sin's law that is in my body. Miserable man that I am! Who will rescue me from the body undergoing this death?" - Romans 7:21-24

Jesus may have had to deal with sources of temptation but he was never captive to sin's law. He had no reason to be miserable in this way. Unlike the rest of us, Jesus was not born with the human blueprint compromised because of Adam's uncleanness. (Rom 5:12)

I can see much sound reasoning in what you point out there, however, I see also a couple of points about it that I cannot agree with. Not that I refuse to agree, nut that I see sound reasons why i cannot agree. I will try to explain those things I disagree with and why:

It is true that, quote, "Sin is based on how we individually measure up to God's standards for humans."

I disagree here, quote, "While we can learn what sin is as we grow up, we sin, not because it is merely part of the world. We sin because our body/mind/energy is not capable of perfect obedience to Jehovah's will."

First of all, was Adam a perfect man before he sinned or not? I think we both believe he was. And after Adam sinned God did not give Adam different flesh. No where in the Bible can we find that Adam's flesh became different other than by his own corruption of himself causing the loss of God's sustaining power of life.

I read the society's literature diligently and I am familiar with what they have to say on this subject. (See the Watchtower 2002 6/1 pp. 9-12 Who Is to Blame – You or Your Genes?)

After saying, quote, "God’s response to the sin of Adam and Eve is revealing. He did not try to correct some ‘design flaw’ in their genes. Rather, he carried out what he told them would be the consequences of their actions, which led to their eventual death. (Genesis 3:17-19) This early history sheds much light on the nature of human behavior", that article then goes on to highlight, 'The Evidence Against Biology'.

The Awake 1996 9/22 pp. 4-8 also has some good information pertaining to this. You may wish to locate those articles and read them so that you know their true position on this subject.

Mountain_Climber · Apr 29, 2015

This was supposed to go with that last post, right where it cut off:

After saying, quote, "God’s response to the sin of Adam and Eve is revealing. He did not try to correct some ‘design flaw’ in their genes. Rather, he carried out what he told them would be the consequences of their actions, which led to their eventual death. (Genesis 3:17-19) This early history sheds much light on the nature of human behavior", that article then goes on to highlight, 'The Evidence Against Biology'.

The Awake 1996 9/22 pp. 3-8 also has some good information pertaining to this. You may wish to locate those articles and read them so that you know their true position on this subject and understand why.

It deeply saddens me to see that the members are not all of the same understanding of this subject and I see that as a consequence of the confusion resulting from how only a few not really well understood scriptures actually apply. And I am saying that it is because the society itself has not explained those few texts as well as they could have done.

First of all, Paul is in no way saying in that scripture you quoted that this is the condition of man at birth. That mistaken idea comes from a failure to clearly understand Psalms 51:5. But before looking closer at Psalms 51:5, let's look deeper at Romans 7:21-24.

There are two laws vying for this man's attention. One is the law of God by the Old Law Covenant. The second are the laws men formulated of their own wisdom.

And thus it is that, "But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members." Romans 7:23

That this falling into sin is the result of the wisdom of man being preferred over the wisdom of God is a major theme in the scriptures. And that ought to not surprise us as that Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Bad symbolizes man turning from God unto his own short-sighted wisdom. Why else do you think that God has declared he is bringing the wisdom of this world to nothing and proving it's foolishness? (1 Corinthians 1:19-21; 1 Corinthians 3:19)

At Romans 7:21-24 Paul is not speaking of the then man he was in his current situation, but is speaking as the man before that man received education in Christ:

Romans 6:19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.

20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.

21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.

22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Right there at Romans 6:19 Paul ques us that he was going to talk as if he were yet one without understanding, not yet dead to the flesh but alive to God in Christ.

There is an awful lot to discuss on this. Perhaps we ought to make a separate thread to discuss it?

Kolibri · Apr 29, 2015

Mountain_Climber said:
I can see much sound reasoning in what you point out there, however, I see also a couple of points about it that I cannot agree with. Not that I refuse to agree, nut that I see sound reasons why i cannot agree. I will try to explain those things I disagree with and why:

It is true that, quote, "Sin is based on how we individually measure up to God's standards for humans."

I disagree here, quote, "While we can learn what sin is as we grow up, we sin, not because it is merely part of the world. We sin because our body/mind/energy is not capable of perfect obedience to Jehovah's will."

First of all, was Adam a perfect man before he sinned or not? I think we both believe he was. And after Adam sinned God did not give Adam different flesh. No where in the Bible can we find that Adam's flesh became different other than by his own corruption of himself causing the loss of God's sustaining power of life.

I read the society's literature diligently and I am familiar with what they have to say on this subject. (See the Watchtower 2002 6/1 pp. 9-12 Who Is to Blame – You or Your Genes?)

After saying, quote, "God’s response to the sin of Adam and Eve is revealing. He did not try to correct some ‘design flaw’ in their genes. Rather, he carried out what he told them would be the consequences of their actions, which led to their eventual death. (Genesis 3:17-19) This early history sheds much light on the nature of human behavior", that article then goes on to highlight, 'The Evidence Against Biology'.

The Awake 1996 9/22 pp. 4-8 also has some good information pertaining to this. You may wish to locate those articles and read them so that you know their true position on this subject.

I will look up these articles. Thank-you. As to whether there was a genetic defect created by sin or as consequence to the uncleanness on their offspring that may require a bit more research on my part. Having been spiritually inert for about 7 years there are some holes in my keeping up-to-date with scriptural understanding. We certainly see genetic defects today. I have a cousin with CAIS. And I've known those with Down's Syndrome. These genetic disorders are of no fault of the individuals with them but is part of the consequences of the uncleanness that stuck to Adam. I am reminded of the principle discussed at Haggai 2:11-13 (though it was applied to a different subject matter in verse 14.)

"This is what Jehovah of armies says, 'Ask, please, the priest about the law: "If a man carries holy flesh in the fold of his clothing, and his clothing touches bread or stew or wine or oil or any sort of food, will it become holy?"'"
The priests answered: "No!"
Haggai then asked: "If someone who is unclean from contact with a dead body (or "by a soul.") touches any of these things, will it become unclean?"
The priests answered: "It will become unclean."
- Haggai 2:11-13

But I will review the articles you posted and reread a bit more slowly what you posted. Again Thank-you.

Kolibri · Apr 29, 2015

Here is the 2002 article. The 1996 is too old to be included in the online library. I will look at it via my copy of a Watchtower library on CD. It should be noted that this article was discussing personal responsibility toward behavior. It was not saying that our genes are perfect. But that our genetics do not absolve us of doing our best while relying on the help provided by "Jehovah, Jesus Christ, God’s holy spirit, his Word the Bible, and the Christian congregation." We are NOT so badly damaged that we can not meet God's standards for imperfect humans - with help.

Who Is to Blame—You or Your Genes? — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

moorea944 · Apr 29, 2015

Mountain_Climber said:
Try again. That verse clearly is speaking about Jesus. Even Jehovah's Witnesses admit that.

Absolutely not. Look at the other verses, esp, verse 15. IT's talking about God and still in 16. Read it carefully.

Kolibri · Apr 29, 2015

Again the article in the Sept 22 issue of the Awake! in 1996 discussed how media presents genetic markers for behavior as fact instead of conjecture.

partial quote:
*** g96 9/22 pp. 3-4 “It’s Not My Fault” ***
Ever since that time, humans have invented various forms of belief and have searched for exotic excuses that would exonerate them from any real accountability for their actions. Notable among these was the ancient belief in fate. A Buddhist woman who sincerely believed in Karma said: “I thought it did not make sense to have to suffer for something I was born with but about which I knew nothing. I had to accept it as my destiny.” Nurtured by the doctrine of predestination as taught by John Calvin, belief in fate is also common in Christendom. Clergymen often tell grieving relatives that a certain accident was the will of God. Then, too, some well-meaning Christians blame Satan for everything that goes wrong in their lives.
Now, we are beginning to witness behavior without accountability that is legally and socially sanctioned. We live in an age of increasing rights and diminishing responsibilities of the individual.
Research into human behavior has produced supposed scientific evidence that some feel could give free rein to behavior ranging from immorality to murder. This is a reflection of society’s eagerness to shift blame onto anything or anyone except the individual.
We need answers to questions such as these: What has science actually discovered? Is human behavior solely determined by our genes? Or do both internal and external forces control our behavior? What does the evidence really show?

Since the first human couple, man has been saving face by passing the blame. Adam blamed God for giving him the woman. Eve blamed the serpent. Now today people are blaming their genetics as a reason to just live as they were 'made.' While things may be more difficult because of imperfection this does not absolve us of responsibility to determine our overall behavior.

It is impossible for humans to be more than 'declared righteous' in our day. (1 Cor 6:11) Only Jesus remained truly righteous as regards to having no sin. Instead for us it is as stated in this proverb:

For the righteous one may fall seven times, and he will get up again,
But the wicked will be made to stumble by calamity.
- Prov 24:16

Mountain_Climber · Apr 29, 2015

Kolibri said:
Again the article in the Sept 22 issue of the Awake! in 1996 discussed how media presents genetic markers for abhorrent behavior as fact instead of conjecture.

partial quote:
*** g96 9/22 pp. 3-4 “It’s Not My Fault” ***
Ever since that time, humans have invented various forms of belief and have searched for exotic excuses that would exonerate them from any real accountability for their actions. Notable among these was the ancient belief in fate. A Buddhist woman who sincerely believed in Karma said: “I thought it did not make sense to have to suffer for something I was born with but about which I knew nothing. I had to accept it as my destiny.” Nurtured by the doctrine of predestination as taught by John Calvin, belief in fate is also common in Christendom. Clergymen often tell grieving relatives that a certain accident was the will of God. Then, too, some well-meaning Christians blame Satan for everything that goes wrong in their lives.
Now, we are beginning to witness behavior without accountability that is legally and socially sanctioned. We live in an age of increasing rights and diminishing responsibilities of the individual.
Research into human behavior has produced supposed scientific evidence that some feel could give free rein to behavior ranging from immorality to murder. This is a reflection of society’s eagerness to shift blame onto anything or anyone except the individual.
We need answers to questions such as these: What has science actually discovered? Is human behavior solely determined by our genes? Or do both internal and external forces control our behavior? What does the evidence really show

Since the first human couple, man has been saving face by passing the blame. Adam blamed God for giving him the woman. Eve blamed the serpent. No today people are blaming their genetics as a reason to just live as they were 'made.' While things may be more difficult because of imperfection this does not absolve us of responsibility to determine our overall behavior.

It is impossible for humans to be more than 'declared righteous' in our day. (1 Cor 6:11) Only Jesus remained truly righteous as regards to having no sin. Instead for us it is as stated in this proverb:

For the righteous one may fall seven times, and he will get up again,
But the wicked will be made to stumble by calamity.
- Prov 24:16

Yes, what they do there is step over the top of addressing it, favoring focusing on the idea that it is not a good excuse to sin anyway. They are avoiding the issue.

Anything that becomes corrupted becomes imperfect. But we have two types of corruption we deal with. One has nothing to do with moral sin for us, as it is merely the corruption caused of Adam body's loss of God's sustaining spirit so that Adam does not pass life to us without physical flaws. That has nothing whatsoever to do with our moral sins and while it may make us ache and be cranky at times, it would have no power over us if not for the corruption we administer to ourselves through ignorance.

The inspired Bible writer Peter told us both very plainly why men commit moral sins and we ought to build on what he told us: 1 Peter 1:14 "As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance:"

Paul agreed: Ephesians 4:18 "Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:"

Acts 17:30 "And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:.."

Why did Peter say they killed Jesus? Acts 3:17 "And now, brethren, I wot that through ignorance ye did it, as did also your rulers."

Would you rather blame your genes or accept their word for what the cause is?

Hosea 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.

Genesis 6:5 "And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually."

Genesis 6:12 "And God saw the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted their [own] way upon the earth."

Numbers 20:24 "Aaron shall be gathered unto his people; for he shall not enter into the land which I have given unto the children of Israel, because ye rebelled against my word at the waters of Meribah."

Deuteronomy 32:5 "They have corrupted themselves, their spot is not the spot of his children: they are a perverse and crooked generation."

Deuteronomy 32:6 Do ye thus requite the LORD, O foolish people and unwise? is not he thy father that hath bought thee? hath he not made thee, and established thee?

How many times do we need to be told what causes it before we believe it?

This is in the scriptures hundreds if not thousands of times, but not this idea that we sin due to being born with a sinful nature. That idea is only able to be gleabned from a couple places and as I have seen, not without we miss the understanding of those couple of scriptures.

Let's discuss another paragraph from that article in a moment.

Mountain_Climber · Apr 29, 2015

I have to shut down and revamp my computer first as it is acting up.

Mountain_Climber · Apr 29, 2015

moorea944 said:
Absolutely not. Look at the other verses, esp, verse 15. IT's talking about God and still in 16. Read it carefully.

Is the holy spirit, God, or something else?

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