If Jesus spoke, ''father, why have you forsaken me'', then why would Xians worship the father?

Scott C. said:

Jesus needed to suffer through the atonement on his own without the support of his Heavenly Father. Only Jesus was qualified to atone. The Father withdrew (forsook) because it was necessary to allow Jesus to do this on his own. It appears that even Jesus did not understand what it would take, the full suffering required, and that the Father would withdraw to allow him to do it alone.

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So you feel that this was just a spontaneous outburst and not an allusion to Psalm 22?

I figured that by the events that happen next in the story (e.g. gambling for his clothes), it was Jesus' way of calling attention to the Pslam... kind of like "look - the Psalm is playing itself out! A prophecy is being fulfilled!"

disciple said:

If Jesus said, literally, father, why have you forsaken me, then why would Xians worship the deity that forsook the one they follow/

Also:
If Jesus did state that on the cross, why would xians worship Jesus, or even follow Jesus, when He was forsaken by the deity they claim to worship as well?

As for myself, I don't think Jesus stated that, at all.
Although consequently, we are then faced with the reality that Jesus sacrificed Himself.
/for His followers.

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I was taught that it meant that Jesus had taken on the sin of the world and God who is Holy, Holy, Holy, couldn't look upon him in that moment.
But sure, like others have said, it could be him quoting Psalms. Though I'm not sure why he would?

rosends said:

and what would you suggest the solution with the fewest assumptions would be?

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That he was simply quoting scripture and the Lord's Prayer had not yet reached No. 1 on the funereal recitation charts. It would be easier for someone hanging on a cross to quote something familiar than to try and think of something cogent and appropriate, given the circumstances.

9-10ths_Penguin said:

So you feel that this was just a spontaneous outburst and not an allusion to Psalm 22?

I figured that by the events that happen next in the story (e.g. gambling for his clothes), it was Jesus' way of calling attention to the Pslam... kind of like "look - the Psalm is playing itself out! A prophecy is being fulfilled!"

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It seems that Psalm 22 alludes to the suffering of Christ on the cross, but I do believe that even Jesus was surprised by the intensity of his suffering and that he had to go it entirely alone.

BSM1 said:

That he was simply quoting scripture and the Lord's Prayer had not yet reached No. 1 on the funereal recitation charts. It would be easier for someone hanging on a cross to quote something familiar than to try and think of something cogent and appropriate, given the circumstances.

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So the choice was just arbitrary and convenient and nothing can be made of the content in any direction?

9-10ths_Penguin said:

All the Christian translations I've been able to find render that first verse as something like "for the choir leader: set to 'Deer of the Dawn'" like it's quoting the title of a tune.

The way you rendered the verse would probably have theological implications, considering the use elsewhere of "Morning Star" as a reference to Lucifer. Is that how you intended the verse to be taken?

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The considering of the phrase as a reference to "Lucifer" is from outside of Jewish tradition (as it the entire back story of "Lucifer").

Scott C. said:

It seems that Psalm 22 alludes to the suffering of Christ on the cross, but I do believe that even Jesus was surprised by the intensity of his suffering and that he had to go it entirely alone.

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Since one of the messages of Psalm 22 is that God is always with us even when things seem their bleakest, it seems a strange choice to me for someone who didn't think that God was with him. After all, even though the psalm starts with "my God, my God, why have you forsaken me?", by the end, it's clear that God never actually forsook him at all.

rosends said:

The considering of the phrase as a reference to "Lucifer" is from outside of Jewish tradition (as it the entire back story of "Lucifer").

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That being said, it's still reasonable to expect that a Jew could have heard about the weight that some Christians place on the term "Morning Star", which allows for the possibility that a Jew could post it in a thread to make a theological point.

9-10ths_Penguin said:

That being said, it's still reasonable to expect that a Jew could have heard about the weight that some Christians place on the term "Morning Star", which allows for the possibility that a Jew could post it in a thread to make a theological point.

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Or the Jew could have posted it because it is a fairly well known Jewish translation/interpretation of that phrase. I don't think that this site or this one would do anything trying to echo anything Christian.

rosends said:

Or the Jew could have posted it because it is a fairly well known Jewish translation/interpretation of that phrase. I don't think that this site or this one would do anything trying to echo anything Christian.

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As fun as it would be for the two of us to muse about what Levite meant by his post, I think it will be more productive to just wait and let him answer for himself.

rosends said:

So the choice was just arbitrary and convenient and nothing can be made of the content in any direction?

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If you have a better take I would be glad to hear it.

BSM1 said:

If you have a better take I would be glad to hear it.

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None. I like what you wrote. I just wanted to make sure I got the gist of it.

9-10ths_Penguin said:

All the Christian translations I've been able to find render that first verse as something like "for the choir leader: set to 'Deer of the Dawn'" like it's quoting the title of a tune.

The way you rendered the verse would probably have theological implications, considering the use elsewhere of "Morning Star" as a reference to Lucifer. Is that how you intended the verse to be taken?

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Of course not. "Lucifer" is an invention of Christianity, based on a mistranslation, which postdates the writing of the psalms by many centuries, and postdates the life of Jesus by at least many decades if not more. There is simply no reason to read anything of the sort into what was likely a fairly straightforward direction to the Levitical choir leader as to when the psalm should be recited.

Levite said:

Of course not. "Lucifer" is an invention of Christianity, based on a mistranslation, which postdates the writing of the psalms by many centuries, and postdates the life of Jesus by at least many decades if not more. There is simply no reason to read anything of the sort into what was likely a fairly straightforward direction to the Levitical choir leader as to when the psalm should be recited.

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I'm not sure it's that straightforward. One of rosend's links suggested that "morning star" was the type of instrument that the psalm was to be played on, and as I mentioned, all the Christian translations I checked suggested that it referred to the name of the tune the psalm was to be sung to. So far, you're the only one I've seen who says it refers to a time of day.

Regardless, you say that the "Morning Star" reference in your post wasn't meant to create an association between the psalm and Lucifer to the Christians reading this thread, so that answers my question. Thank you.

9-10ths_Penguin said:

Since one of the messages of Psalm 22 is that God is always with us even when things seem their bleakest, it seems a strange choice to me for someone who didn't think that God was with him. After all, even though the psalm starts with "my God, my God, why have you forsaken me?", by the end, it's clear that God never actually forsook him at all.

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I believe that the Father withdrew his supporting influence. He had to do so, in order for Jesus to atone for our sins. Otherwise, the suffering would have been lessened by the Father's blessing of comfort. But the suffering had to be infinite in order to satisfy justice in behalf of humanity.

Scott C. said:

I believe that the Father withdrew his supporting influence. He had to do so, in order for Jesus to atone for our sins. Otherwise, the suffering would have been lessened by the Father's blessing of comfort. But the suffering had to be infinite in order to satisfy justice in behalf of humanity.

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One of the great causes of confusion in religion, IMHO, is when man saddles an all supreme deity with human qualities.

Scott C. said:

I believe that the Father withdrew his supporting influence. He had to do so, in order for Jesus to atone for our sins. Otherwise, the suffering would have been lessened by the Father's blessing of comfort. But the suffering had to be infinite in order to satisfy justice in behalf of humanity.

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I understand that. What I want to know, though, is why you think Jesus would quote from a psalm about how God is always with us even when things are bleakest if he thought that he really had been abandoned by God. Do you think the connection doesn't mean anything?

Rival said:

It's a reference to Psalm 22. Read the Psalm.

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Yes! It's a prophesy of the Passion of Christ. That's why he quoted the first line of it when he was dying on the Cross.

We can not be certain of Jesus' motive, but both the idea that Jehovah had taken His protection away so that His Son’s integrity could be fully tested and the idea that Jesus said this because he wanted to fulfill what Psalm 22:1 foretold regarding him are feasible.

disciple said:

If Jesus said, literally, father, why have you forsaken me, then why would Xians worship the deity that forsook the one they follow/

Also:
If Jesus did state that on the cross, why would xians worship Jesus, or even follow Jesus, when He was forsaken by the deity they claim to worship as well?

As for myself, I don't think Jesus stated that, at all.
Although consequently, we are then faced with the reality that Jesus sacrificed Himself.
/for His followers.

Click to expand...

Yeshua was quoting Psalm 22.

My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring? 2O my God, I cry in the daytime, but thou hearest not; and in the night season, and am not silent. 3But thou art holy, O thou that inhabitest the praises of Israel. 4Our fathers trusted in thee: they trusted, and thou didst deliver them. 5They cried unto thee, and were delivered: they trusted in thee, and were not confounded. 6But I am a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people.7All they that see me laugh me to scorn: they shoot out the lip, they shake the head, saying,8He trusted on the LORD that he would deliver him: let him deliver him, seeing he delighted in him.9But thou art he that took me out of the womb: thou didst make me hope when I was upon my mother's breasts.10I was cast upon thee from the womb: thou art my God from my mother's belly.11Be not far from me; for trouble is near; for there is none to help.12Many bulls have compassed me: strong bulls of Bashan have beset me round.13They gaped upon me with their mouths, as a ravening and a roaring lion.14I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint: my heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels.15My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; and thou hast brought me into the dust of death.16For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.17I may tell all my bones: they look and stare upon me.18They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.19But be not thou far from me, O LORD: O my strength, haste thee to help me.20Deliver my soul from the sword; my darling from the power of the dog.21Save me from the lion's mouth: for thou hast heard me from the horns of the unicorns.22I will declare thy name unto my brethren: in the midst of the congregation will I praise thee.23Ye that fear the LORD, praise him; all ye the seed of Jacob, glorify him; and fear him, all ye the seed of Israel. Psalm 22: 1-23