"atpollard, post: 4264660, member: 56780"]When dealing with God ... some things are a mystery.
I do not say that as an excuse to avoid really thinking about it ... I say that because I have really spent the time thinking about it.
I have a mentor who pointed out that whatever position you take on the nature of God, if you are honest, study all of scripture (rather than just cherry pick verses) and examine the logical consequences of your conclusions ... you will eventually bump into a place that is either 'mystery' or 'faith' or both. Different people reach different conclusions, which places the 'mystery/faith' in a different place ... but all views appear to have some point of mystery/faith.
i believe God had recorded in his word, enough for us in our current limited capacity, to understand much of the "basics" if you like about our awesome father and creator. He has revealed enough about himself for us to be able to form a relationship with him, and to know of all the attributes he posses, justice, power etc... His greatest attribute, and what describes God best, Is love.
I'll never know all there is to know about God. Even after a billion years I would still be scratching the surface as to all that God has done, and will be doing. That said, for the here and now, the evidence is the same for all those earnestly seeking to find out more about God. What does differ are the conclusions.
If I can just say thank you in advance for taking the time to make such a thought-provoking post. I Don't underestimate how much time has gone into it, and so any pov I post that may be a little different to yours, is in No way meant to undermine your faith, and I hope it is taken that way.
So, how do I explain Jesus relationship with God, and where does the Holy Spirit come into it?
- God is one ... He is completely clear on this point ... there is only one real God (who has many names in the Bible designed to reflect the breath of his character).
many names, or titles? The reason I say is for what he had recorded at (King James Version)
Psalms 83:18 That men may know that thou,
whose name alone is JEHOVAH, art the most high over all the earth.
- Jesus of Nazareth was "fully human in every way" (Heb 2:17) and yet “before Abraham was born, I am!” (John 8:58) ...
Holy Spirit certainly came upon Mary and she conceived Jesus. In this way he was human, however, as no male was involved in the process, sin was not passed into the new born child. My questions to you are:
1/ why did Jesus have to become a human?
2/ is Jesus answer to the pharasees in John 8:58 regarding his age, or his existence, or his identity?
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Once I accepted that God the Father and Jesus Christ are both fully God (eternal, worshiped, possessing divine power) and distinct persons ... I am dragged kicking and screaming into the conflict of one God and two persons both claiming that THEY have the right to that title ...
I appreciate many people come to this conclusion. A close look at what the bible says leads me to a different conclusion based on the evidence.
- (Byington) Hebrews 1:9 You loved rectitude and hated wickedness; for this reason God, your God, has anointed you with the oil of joy beyond your fellows,”
Where the conflict with your conclusions arises, IMO, is that if Jesus and Jehovah are both fully God, why is it that Paul says that Jesus has a God? How do you reconcile that?
- Also Paul writes in (King James Version) 1Corinthians 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
- When the apostles were being persecuted, in prayer to God they said
American Standard Version) Acts 4:29,30 And now, Lord, behold their threatenings: and grant unto thy servants, that with all boldness they may speak thy word,while thy stretchest forth thy hand to heal; and that signs and wonders may be done through the name of thy holy Servant Jesus.
- If Jesus is a co-equal God, why is he described as a servant?
- the scriptures, to me at least do NOT indicate God and Christ are equal. I would say they share the same nature, Jesus most definately is God-like. However, I don't see any indication that Jesus, nor any other bible writer suggesting he is almighty God.
- Father and Son is the closest human relationship they have to explain their relationship ... both claim that relationship ... it is clearly not a perfect explanation of a "Godhead" (we need a new word to describe this new reality) ... thus we have another piece of the "God mystery".
thats an interesting point you raise there. If I wanted to teach someone that two people are equal, I would illustrate it using identical twins.
But Jesus referred to
God as thefatherand to
himself as the Son. So, what message do you suppose Jesus was conveying?
What did he want us, some 2000 years later to conclude about their relationship?
- Taking everything said in scripture about the Holy Spirit together as a whole, there are many passages that describe the power and attributes of the Holy Spirit that can legitimately be interpreted as both fully equal to God in power, and either a distinct person or an impersonal force. Person or force, the power and attributes indicate a direct relationship with the "Father-Son Godhead" that cannot be questioned ... if only a force, it is clearly God's force and not some lesser force. Then there is also a vast body of scripture that ascribes attributes to the Holy Spirit that are not easily ascribed to an impersonal force ... gravity is not 'grieved', but the Holy spirit is. There is too great a body of scripture for the personhood of the Holy Spirit to dismiss all of it ... again dismissing all of the evidence for the person of the Holy Spirit does too great a violence to the whole of scripture for me to accept.
i get what your saying, I really do.
Is Holy Spirit a person, a force, both?
We know the spirit is said to: hear, speak, teach, be grieved, bear witness...
On the other hand, one can be filled with Holy Spirit, baptised in Holy Spirit, anointed with Holy Spirit, all descriptions that would not fit the idea of personage.
It is such a difficult thing in some ways to quantify. Personally I have to revert back to context.
Sometimes in scripture, things or conditions are personified.
-Water and blood are said to be witnesses.
-wisdom is said to have children
-sin and death are described as kings
What else can we add into the mix?
(King James Version)
Psalms 104:30 Thou sendest forth thy spirit, they are created: and thou renewest the face of the earth.
- it seems to me that the God has ownership of the spirit. He sends forth his spirit. Can it be a co-equal part of the God head?
(American Standard Version)
Acts 4:31 And when they had prayed, the place was shaken wherein they were gathered together; and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit, and they spake the word of God with boldness.
- it becomes difficult IMO to ascribe personage to something that filled many people at the same time.
But at the same time, I understand why people do ascribe personage to it. I guess from my perspective, it does come down to what dogma one chooses to form an opinion with regards the Holy Spirit.
The simplest explanation (which, being a 'God mystery', is by no means 'simple') is that the Godhead (one divine being) exists not in a dual (Father-Son) personhood, but in a triune (Fater-Son-Spirit) personhood.
without wanting to distort your words, it does seem as if your conclusions are reached via a trinitarians bias. I'll make the point again that the evidence is the same for you as it is for me, but ATM we have different conclusions. However as (King James Version)
Proverbs 27:17 says: Iron sharpeneth iron; so a man sharpeneth the countenance of his friend.
When spiritual things are discussed in a calm and peaceful way, I feel both can benefit.
How can this be?
Sure wish that I knew.
I wish that I could understand all of it and, even more, that I could explain it in a way that many people could understand it.
That's just how I am wired ... to want to understand the complex and express it in small words and simple imagery.
Unfortunately, I can't explain it.
I can just read scripture, connect the dots and acknowledge the picture that connecting the dots reveals.
I have some clues or hints ... are you familiar with atoms and molecules and chemistry?
As the grandson of a former Chief Production Chemist at Union Carbide, and the son of a retired Research Chemist, I was conversant in basic chemistry before kindergarten.
There is a concept called
'Resonance'.
Look at a Carbonate ion:
notice the double lines that represent the fourth electron bond ... each C-O has at least one bond and one of them (C=O) has two bonds.
Any ONE of the pairs can have the double bond at any given moment and the double bond can move from one "O" to another, but at any moment, ONLY one of the pairs can have the double bond.
When you measure the bond strength, you would expect one of the "O" legs to have 2 bonds and the other legs to have 1 bond.
When you actually do measure the bond strength, each leg measures exactly 1.333333 bonds.
One third of an electron pair is an impossibility ... at the same time, the double bond exists in all three legs and in none of the legs.
There is only one substance ... a Carbonate Ion ... all three possible forms are still the exact same one Carbonate Ion.
Each of the forms (presented in the picture above) is a distinct form ... there are three distinct Oxygen atoms and only one of them can have the actual double bond.
Yet when we actually measure for the bond ... all three forms exist simultaneously in the one atom.
Does this mean that God is like an Carbonate Ion?
No.
It just means that even nature (chemistry) recognizes the truth that even an Ion can be three distinct somethings that are all part of the same one unique something.
Is the true nature of the real God less incomprehensible to a human mind than an Ion?
God = One 'Godhead' = three 'persons' ... a God mystery.
Very interesting. I must admit this will take a few reads to get a handle of, and I can see why you would use this analogy.
I'll look forward to some of your conclusions to the points I raised, but as I mentioned also, I'm really not looking for a my world view vs your world view debate, I like to understand peoples pov, as it challenges me to making sure "I'm in the faith."
Thanks for taking the time to construct such a well thought out post.
