"The Book of Mormon" vs. Charlie Hebdo

Norman · Apr 25, 2015

fantome profane said:
But what is true is that when the Bible was written people really didn't know what "planets" were, but when the book of Mormon was written science and science fiction had developed to a state where the idea of other planets had entered the general imagination.

Norman: Hi fantome profane, you may or may not find this interesting, however, give it the benefit of the doubt and read it. The book of Abraham supports, expands, and clarifies the biblical account of Abraham’s life. In the biblical account, God covenants with Abraham to “make of thee a great nation.” The book of Abraham provides context for that covenant by showing that Abraham was a seeker of “great knowledge” and a “follower of righteousness” who chose the right path in spite of great hardship. He rejected the wickedness of his father’s household and spurned the idols of the surrounding culture, despite the threat of death.

Abraham 3:2 And I saw the stars, that they were very great, and that one of them was nearest unto the throne of God; and there were many great ones which were near unto it;
3 And the Lord said unto me: These are the governing ones; and the name of the great one is Kolob, because it is near unto me, for I am the Lord thy God: I have set this one to govern all those which belong to the same order as that upon which thou standest.

4 And the Lord said unto me, by the Urim and Thummim, that Kolob was after the manner of the Lord, according to its times‍ and seasons in the revolutions thereof; that one revolution was a day‍ unto the Lord, after his manner of reckoning, it being one thousand years‍ according to the time appointed unto that whereon thou standest. This is the reckoning of the Lord’s time, according to the reckoning of Kolob. 5 And the Lord said unto me: The planet which is the lesser light, lesser than that which is to rule the day, even the night, is above or greater‍ than that upon which thou standest in point of reckoning, for it moveth in order more slow; this is in order because it standeth above the earth upon which thou standest, therefore the reckoning of its time is not so many as to its number of days, and of months, and of years.

6 And the Lord said unto me: Now, Abraham, these two‍ facts exist, behold thine eyes see it; it is given unto thee to know the times of reckoning, and the set time, yea, the set time of the earth upon which thou standest, and the set time of the greater light which is set to rule the day, and the set time of the lesser light which is set to rule the night. 7 Now the set time of the lesser light is a longer time as to its reckoning than the reckoning of the time of the earth upon which thou standest. 8 And where these two facts exist, there shall be another fact above them, that is, there shall be another planet whose reckoning of time shall be longer still;

9 And thus there shall be the reckoning of the time of one planet‍ above another, until thou come nigh unto Kolob, which Kolob is after the reckoning of the Lord’s time; which Kolob is set nigh unto the throne of God, to govern all those planets which belong to the same order‍ as that upon which thou standest. 10 And it is given unto thee to know the set time of all the stars that are set to give light, until thou come near unto the throne of God. 13 And he said unto me: This is Shinehah, which is the sun. And he said unto me: Kokob, which is star. And he said unto me: Olea, which is the moon. And he said unto me: Kokaubeam, which signifies stars, or all the great lights, which were in the firmament of heaven.

16 If two‍ things exist, and there be one above the other, there shall be greater things above them; therefore Kolob‍ is the greatest of all the Kokaubeam that thou hast seen, because it is nearest unto me.
17 Now, if there be two things, one above the other, and the moon be above the earth, then it may be that a planet or a star may exist above it; and there is nothing that the Lord thy God shall take in his heart to do but what he will do‍ it. 18 Howbeit that he made the greater star; as, also, if there be two spirits, and one shall be more intelligent than the other, yet these two spirits, notwithstanding one is more intelligent than the other, have no beginning; they existed before, they shall have no end, they shall exist after, for they are gnolaum, or eternal.

Source:

Abraham 3

Norman · Apr 25, 2015

gsa said:
Well to be fair, most non-theists suspicious of Abrahamic religions are not really inclined to interpret their doctrines in ways that respect their sectarian sensibilities. A claim that Catholics eat the blood and flesh of their god-man each Sunday, while crude, is not inaccurate. It is just not respectful of the belief. That is, of course, the great big bad of something like the DIR sections, and the corresponding ethos of balkanization that pervades so many of these traditions represented within them.

It is also fittingly the subject of this thread in "religious debates," the most liberal real estate of RF. Many Mormons want their little enclave and some modicum of respect, and many more Muslims want, nay, demand, the whole enchilada. Respect, deference, and payment of homage. This perhaps explains why dissidents, liberals and nonbelievers avoid the DIR like the plague. You only want to discuss your beliefs in a "safe zone," free from inquiry and debate on the part of the non-initiated. No one interested in actual dialogue insists on those preconditions, in my opinion.

Norman: 2 Nephi 29:3 And because my words shall hiss forth—many of the Gentiles shall say: A Bible! A Bible! We have got a Bible, and there cannot be any more Bible.
4 But thus saith the Lord God: O fools, they shall have a Bible; and it shall proceed forth from the Jews, mine ancient covenant people. And what thank‍ they the Jews‍ for the Bible which they receive from them? Yea, what do the Gentiles mean? Do they remember the travails, and the labors, and the pains of the Jews, and their diligence unto me, in bringing forth salvation unto the Gentiles?

5 O ye Gentiles, have ye remembered the Jews, mine ancient covenant people? Nay; but ye have cursed‍ them, and have hated‍ them, and have not sought to recover them. But behold, I will return all these things upon your own heads; for I the Lord have not forgotten my people. 6 Thou fool, that shall say: A Bible, we have got a Bible, and we need no more Bible. Have ye obtained a Bible save it were by the Jews?

7 Know ye not that there are more nations‍ than one? Know ye not that I, the Lord your God, have created all men, and that I remember those who are upon the isles‍ of the sea; and that I rule in the heavens above and in the earth‍ beneath; and I bring forth my word‍ unto the children of men, yea, even upon all the nations of the earth?
8 Wherefore murmur ye, because that ye shall receive more of my word? Know ye not that the testimony‍ of two‍ nations is a witness‍ unto you that I am God, that I remember one nation‍ like unto another? Wherefore, I speak the same words unto one nation like unto another. And when the two nations‍ shall run together the testimony of the two nations shall run together also.

9 And I do this that I may prove unto many that I am the same‍ yesterday, today, and forever; and that I speak forth my words‍ according to mine own pleasure. And because that I have spoken one word‍ ye need not suppose that I cannot speak another; for my work‍ is not yet finished; neither shall it be until the end of man, neither from that time henceforth and forever. 10 Wherefore, because that ye have a Bible ye need not suppose that it contains all my words; neither need‍ ye suppose that I have not caused more to be written.

11 For I command all‍ men, both in the east and in the west, and in the north, and in the south, and in the islands of the sea, that they shall write‍ the words which I speak unto them; for out of the books‍ which shall be written I will judge‍ the world, every man according to their works, according to that which is written. 12 For behold, I shall speak unto the Jews‍ and they shall write‍ it; and I shall also speak unto the Nephites and they shall write‍ it; and I shall also speak unto the other tribes of the house of Israel, which I have led away, and they shall write it; and I shall also speak unto all‍ nations of the earth and they shall write it.

13 And it shall come to pass that the Jews‍ shall have the words of the Nephites, and the Nephites shall have the words of the Jews; and the Nephites and the Jews shall have the words of the lost tribes‍ of Israel; and the lost tribes of Israel shall have the words of the Nephites and the Jews. 14 And it shall come to pass that my people, which are of the house of Israel, shall be gathered home unto the lands‍ of their possessions; and my word also shall be gathered in one. And I will show unto them that fight against my word and against my people, who are of the house of Israel, that I am God, and that I covenanted‍ with Abraham‍ that I would remember his seed forever.

Source:

2 Nephi 29:3

Mycroft · Apr 25, 2015

Norman said:
Norman: In the future if you want to debate and you make statements, make sure that you can back up your statements. Be quick to give support
for your opinion instead of making comments and then running from them. It would be common courtesy the person (s) that you are asking an
audience with.

It would also derail the thread.

McBell · Apr 25, 2015

Norman said:
Norman: Instead of responding to my post, why don't you respond to the picture.

The picture does not deserve any comment.
Why?
Because to comment on the picture is to give it way more attention than it deserves.

Norman said:
The original OP mentioned the Mormons. After about five post's by other's
the topic fell away from the OP, it turned into a bashing session about The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints.

So you reply with a rule violating sermon?
Of course, you still have not answered the question:

What does your sermon have to do with the thread?

Norman said:
If you have a problem with that, then it
lies with you, not me.

How about instead of going out of your way to get your panties in a bunch, you merely answer the question posed to you?

Deadtroopers · Apr 25, 2015

Katzpur said:
I don't even know what to say to all of this nonsense. Everything you have said about Mormonism is a half-truth, an exaggeration, a parody or a caricature of what Mormonism really teaches. It's like you're getting all of your information from a source that's about as reliable as the National Enquirer.

Actually, I'm as capable of being a ***** as the next person. You just need to push me a little further and you'll see that.

Well, truth be told, I'm not drawn to any of what you said because what you have said Mormonism teaches is not what we really teach. You see, I don't mind (I actually quite enjoy) debating the legitimacy of LDS doctrine, particularly as it ties to the Bible (since we see the two books as being entirely complementary). What I can't be bothered with is debating a bunch of inaccurate claims about our beliefs (aka "laugh-out-loud wibble").

If you are genuinely interested in getting your facts straight and learning (solely to become better informed and for no other reason) about Mormonism, you'll go to the LDS DIR and pose each of your statements on Mormonism as a respectful question (each one in a different thread), you will have my full and undivided attention and my promise that I will respond with accurate and complete information to each of them.

While I might respect you as an individual I cannot respect either your religion,
your Church, it's heirarchy or it's "prophets". Asking 'respectful' questions on a propagandist outlet is not something I am either likely or inclined to indulge. 'Dubious snake oil' is as generous as I could be about it. Sorry about that.

Katzpur · Apr 25, 2015

Deadtroopers said:
While I might respect you as an individual I cannot respect either your religion,
your Church, it's heirarchy or it's "prophets". Asking 'respectful' questions on a propagandist outlet is not something I am either likely or inclined to indulge. 'Dubious snake oil' is as generous as I could be about it. Sorry about that.

Are you saying you see RF's DIRs as propagandist outlets?

Deadtroopers · Apr 25, 2015

Katzpur said:
Are you saying you see RF's DIRs as propagandist outlets?

All DIRs appear to be that or echo chambers.

Saint Frankenstein · Apr 25, 2015

Quatermass said:
I think it's largely because Mormonism finds its origins in America and feels, therefore, more relevant. What I'm most curious to know is why people feel Mormonism is any more legitimate as a religion than Scientology since both share similar origins.

Wow, I have major disagreements with Mormonism but I would never compare them to $cientology, which isn't even a religion but a brainwashing, murderous, money-grubbing cult.

Saint Frankenstein · Apr 25, 2015

Deadtroopers said:
All DIRs appear to be that or echo chambers.

No, they're places for people to gather and discuss within their own group without having to establish basic assumptions over and over or deal with rudeness and idiocy like in the debate forums. Not everyone's interested in debating and sometimes you get burnt out from it and just want to discuss things in peace. Unlike how some people wish to have it, RF isn't a "bash religion" site.

Katzpur · Apr 25, 2015

Deadtroopers said:
All DIRs appear to be that or echo chambers.

Well, I think you should give that some more thought. One of the things I like about RF is that it provides both forums for debate and forums for education. I know that if I am looking for accurate information on Judaism, for instance, I can go to the Jewish DIRs and ask my questions there. I know from the outset that my answers will be coming from people of the Jewish faith and that I can, for the most part, assume that them to be accurate. To me, that makes more sense to ask a Jew to explain Judaism than it would make to ask a Muslim to explain Judaism. Even on the DIR forums, proselytizing is against the forum rules, so basically they just provide a place where people can say, "Here's what we believe," without having somebody else say, "No, that's not what you believe." I'm guessing that maybe your reluctance to use the DIR forums stems from distrust. If you have reason to expect that you wouldn't get straightforward answers to your questions on a DIR forum, it's understandable that you wouldn't find posting there to be a worthwhile use of your time. Maybe once you know me better, you'll come to realize that I'm really a pretty good source of information on Mormonism. And I would challenge anybody on this forum to find one single solitary instance of where I even verged on proselytizing. At any rate, you'll probably pick up a little bit of accurate information about Mormonism over time, even if you don't use the DIRs. The problem is, it might be difficult to know what's accurate and what's not. I don't know how important accuracy really is to you.

Deadtroopers · Apr 25, 2015

Saint Frankenstein said:
Wow, I have major disagreements with Mormonism but I would never compare them to $cientology, which isn't even a religion but a brainwashing, murderous, money-grubbing cult.

If you look you will find those descriptives are applicable to the LDS Church. Just as they are applicable to the majority of churches and religions. Even the Amish have roots in a church that was prone to killing everyone who didn't follow it.

Saint Frankenstein · Apr 25, 2015

Deadtroopers said:
If you look you will find those descriptives are applicable to the LDS Church. Just as they are applicable to the majority of churches and religions. Even the Amish have roots in a church that was prone to killing everyone who didn't follow it.

Mmhmm.

Katzpur · Apr 25, 2015

Saint Frankenstein said:
No, they're places for people to gather and discuss within their own group without having to establish basic assumptions over and over or deal with rudeness and idiocy like in the debate forums.

I think of them more as places where people can go for accurate information about religions other than their own. For instance, on a debate forum, someone might say, "Catholics are cannibals. Every time they have mass, they have a big feast of Jesus' body and blood." Then the Catholics on the forum would be put in a position of having to explain that that's not really what transubstantiation really is. The original poster could just say, "Well, you're wrong. You Catholics either don't know a thing about your own religion or else you're just lying." If someone is genuinely looking for factual information on a religious topic, he'll use the DIRs. I love the debate forums here, but I definitely think the DIRs have a place, too.

Saint Frankenstein · Apr 25, 2015

Katzpur said:
I think of them more as places where people can go for accurate information about religions other than their own. For instance, on a debate forum, someone might say, "Catholics are cannibals. Every time they have mass, they have a big feast of Jesus' body and blood." Then the Catholics on the forum would be put in a position of having to explain that that's not really what transubstantiation really is. The original poster could just say, "Well, you're wrong. You Catholics either don't know a thing about your own religion or else you're just lying." If someone is genuinely looking for factual information on a religious topic, he'll use the DIRs. I love the debate forums here, but I definitely think the DIRs have a place, too.

Yes, they are great for finding information, too.

Aquitaine · Apr 25, 2015

Norman said:
Norman: Why would you even post that picture? It is blasphemy and disgusting, is that what Jesus Christ means to you? Do you know what He did for mankind? Whether you accept him or not, I do and He is my Redeemer, my Savior, my King, he suffered and bled from every pore for me and took all my sins upon himself so that I could repent and come unto him. I don't know what it is like to have nails driven thru my palms, wrists and feet. I do not know what it is like to go thru a kangaroo court, being spit on, being antagonized, being lashed on the back and my flesh come off, his own family and home town thought he was crazy because he claimed to be the son of God, the only begotten son of God in the flesh. One day I hope to meet him and wet his feet with my tears and hope that I will receive mercy for the mistakes that I made in life. I know that he lives and will return to the earth and every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that he is the risen Christ, the spotless lamb, the advocate with the Father. I know and believe in this man, he is my God and my best friend. He listens to me when no one else will, I have his shoulder to cry on when no one else will give me there shoulder, he suffered so that he could succor his people. I know he knows me and understands me. I love him, I wish I was half the man that he is.

The article and picture are relevant to this thread because it highlights how every other major religion is victim to "blasphemous" imagery like Islam is, yet there is little-to-no violence/death as a result. This appears to highlight a major problem many Muslims have with handling mockery of Islam.

Your post is also another good example as to why people shouldn't take religion too seriously in my humble opinion.

Deadtroopers · Apr 25, 2015

Katzpur said:
Well, I think you should give that some more thought. One of the things I like about RF is that it provides both forums for debate and forums for education. I know that if I am looking for accurate information on Judaism, for instance, I can go to the Jewish DIRs and ask my questions there. I know from the outset that my answers will be coming from people of the Jewish faith and that I can, for the most part, assume that them to be accurate. To me, that makes more sense to ask a Jew to explain Judaism than it would make to ask a Muslim to explain Judaism. Even on the DIR forums, proselytizing is against the forum rules, so basically they just provide a place where people can say, "Here's what we believe," without having somebody else say, "No, that's not what you believe." I'm guessing that maybe your reluctance to use the DIR forums stems from distrust. If you have reason to expect that you wouldn't get straightforward answers to your questions on a DIR forum, it's understandable that you wouldn't find posting there to be a worthwhile use of your time. Maybe once you know me better, you'll come to realize that I'm really a pretty good source of information on Mormonism. And I would challenge anybody on this forum to find one single solitary instance of where I even verged on proselytizing. At any rate, you'll probably pick up a little bit of accurate information about Mormonism over time, even if you don't use the DIRs. The problem is, it might be difficult to know what's accurate and what's not. I don't know how important accuracy really is to you.

I generally begin with the source material. The Book of Mormon is a bowlderised pastiche modelled on the King James Bible. It shares the moral repugnance of the Tanakh. Then there is the person, character and history of the LDS founder and the events surrounding him. Looking at the Church's history in the following centuries, I see a lot that is anything but honest or upstanding. Official Churches will lie; and yours unfortunately does this more than most from from what I have seen. What then would be the point of going to your DIR? I would have to independently check everything that might be said to me. I prefer the source everytime. The gods and planets thing is a case in point. I read of it and asked. That is what I was told. By a Mormon of good standing I know quite well. Now what is that based on if anything?

Deadtroopers · Apr 25, 2015

Katzpur said:
I think of them more as places where people can go for accurate information about religions other than their own. For instance, on a debate forum, someone might say, "Catholics are cannibals. Every time they have mass, they have a big feast of Jesus' body and blood." Then the Catholics on the forum would be put in a position of having to explain that that's not really what transubstantiation really is. The original poster could just say, "Well, you're wrong. You Catholics either don't know a thing about your own religion or else you're just lying." If someone is genuinely looking for factual information on a religious topic, he'll use the DIRs. I love the debate forums here, but I definitely think the DIRs have a place, too.

A long time ago I was having to make just that explanation. I stopped half way through. I realised transubstantiation was just as silly as the cannibal explanation.
Later it occurred to me that if the host was in somesense Jesus the cannibal calumny was actually true. You cannot go through life asserting damn silly things. At some point you have to grow up.

Deadtroopers · Apr 25, 2015

Saint Frankenstein said:
Mmhmm.

Munster, five hundred odd years ago. They out grew it. With Scientology those sort of behaviours seem to be substantially what they are all about. LDS substantialy not perhaps; but that component is there and has been from the beginning. The Roman Catholic hierarchy was complicit in Latin America's "Dirty Wars" and "dissapearing" people. A Roman Catholic bishop took up the machete in Rwanda. Roman Catholic clergy regularly abuse children. Their hierarchy covers it up and subverts the law. From the photos you put up and the lyric in your sig you would appear to be a Fascist apologist. Check you own moral compass before rolling your eyes at me.

Saint Frankenstein · Apr 25, 2015

Deadtroopers said:
Munster, five hundred odd years ago. They out grew it. With Scientology those sort of behaviours seem to be substantially what they are all about. LDS sunstantially not perhaps; but that component is there and has been from the beginning. The Roman Catholic hierarchy was complicit in Latin America's "Dirty Wars" and "dissapearing" people. A Roman Catholic bishop took up the machete in Rwanda. Roman Catholic clergy regularly abuse children. Their hierarchy covers it up and subverts the law. From the photos you put up and the lyric in your sig you would appear to be a Fascist apologist. Check you own moral compass before rolling your eyes at me.

My moral compass is just fine, thank you. Any more old news that's supposed to be shocking that you wish to randomly clutter the thread with?

Katzpur · Apr 25, 2015

Deadtroopers said:
You cannot go through life asserting damn silly things. At some point you have to grow up.

Earlier in this thread, you said that I "seem like a nice person, quite cogent [and] reasonable." You also said that you "respect [me] as an individual." You've got a mighty unconventional way of showing that respect. I have honestly done my best to be civil in my responses to you, but at this point, I'm afraid there's really no need for me to continue to engage in this dialogue. Maybe someone else will be interested in taking over where I'm leaving off.

"The Book of Mormon" vs. Charlie Hebdo

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