The Misunderstanding of Christianity in the Quran

Nehustan said:

Given we now know, that the stellar systems we see in the night sky are all 'suns' to say that Jesus shines like 'The Sun' gives away the pagan syncretism which is part of the problem. Personally I prefer to think of the prophets as shining as stars, I believe myself well past worshipping The Sun or even the metaphor of the sun as giving light. I have a whole thread dedicated to the concept of light in Judaism, what is called 'Christianity' and of course Islam, and I manage to avoid the use of the sun as a giver of light as universally it is limiting, with the true light of the God being nothing like the sun (light shineth in the darkness....). In fact the analogy of the sun as giver of life, the solar pagan rites be they of Rome (Sol Invictus) or Aegypt (Ra/Osiris) and its semiotic inclusion/allusion in Revelation (13:16-18) was one of the main reasons I RAN to Islam.

Click to expand...

The Sun is how Our Beloved Holy Mother has chosen or has been chosen to display. It is Her means of broadcast. Our Beautiful Mother is very concerned about our individual forgiveness . She emphasizes that She is not God. She emphasizes that She comes as an Angel to intercede for us to Her Son. Her message is clear and bright. In order to obtain forgiveness for any transgressions we must first completely forgive those who have transgressed against us. Asking forgiveness is not enough. Asking through prayer combined with ones own forgiveness of others will unlock the Gates of Mercy immediately. If you must run, then run to the Light Of The Son... Thank You So Much...

Booko said:

Thanks for the excellent post. While I would not claim that intercession isn't a form of shirk, it's also inaccurate to claim that Christians believe that Mary is a God. It may be a difference more in semantics when it comes down to practice, but I've never heard any Christians teaching that Mary is a god or on a par with God.

I would like to point out, though, that there are many Christians who don't use intercessors. I grew up in a Protestant denomination that pretty much only trotted Mary out for the Christmas pageant. The denom I was in is not unique in the Protestant branches of Christianity.

So it kinda pays to be careful about making blanket statements about Christians comitting shirk by calling on Mary as an intessor, because there are millions of them that don't.

Click to expand...

Ok here's a blanket statement, the ones who do not call on Mary as intercessor (and all the ones that do) call on Jesus/Jeheshuah/Isa as an intercessor (tho' there are some that think prophets will have the right of intercession on the day of resurrection), and beyond that they commit shirk by directly associating Jesus with Allah. If they were quite happy only to associate JHShVH with IHVH as a father it wouldn't be so bad (The word/Adam kadmon/IHVH), but to go beyond associating Jesus/Jeheshuah/Isa in a literal paternal association with Eloah/Allah is no doubt shirk, and the most major shirk there can be.

SunMessenger said:

The Sun is how Our Beloved Holy Mother has chosen or has been chosen to display. It is Her means of broadcast. Our Beautiful Mother is very concerned about our individual forgiveness . She emphasizes that She is not God. She emphasizes that She comes as an Angel to intercede for us to Her Son. Her message is clear and bright. In order to obtain forgiveness for any transgressions we must first completely forgive those who have transgressed against us. Asking forgiveness is not enough. Asking through prayer combined with ones own forgiveness of others will unlock the Gates of Mercy immediately. If you must run, then run to the Light Of The Son... Thank You So Much...

Click to expand...

six hundred three score and six, no thanks. I prefer three hundred one score and six

Nehustan said:

six hundred three score and six, no thanks. I prefer three hundred one score and six

Click to expand...

I do not understand this response. If you are poking fun at life, that is fine . If you are mocking me that is fine as well... If you are attempting to mock our Beloved Holy Mother, I pity you... No one loves you more than She. Our Immaculate Mother Mary comes to save us from our earthly mistakes so that we may be worthy to join Her and All Elect in Paradise. Believe or Do Not Believe. The choice is yours... I choose to obey and respect Our Beloved Mary at all cost. I give my Soul to Her as She asks this and emphasizes , "My Hands Are Clean to present them to Jesus. In the name of Jesus Christ I am here for you and all men." These are Her expressions not mine. Thank You...

SunMessenger said:

I do not understand this response. If you are poking fun at life, that is fine . If you are mocking me that is fine as well... If you are attempting to mock our Beloved Holy Mother, I pity you... No one loves you more than She. Our Immaculate Mother Mary comes to save us from our earthly mistakes so that we may be worthy to join Her and All Elect in Paradise. Believe or Do Not Believe. The choice is yours... I choose to obey and respect Our Beloved Mary at all cost. I give my Soul to Her as She asks this and emphasizes , "My Hands Are Clean to present them to Jesus. In the name of Jesus Christ I am here for you and all men." These are Her expressions not mine. Thank You...

Click to expand...

No not mocking Mary, but certainly alluding to your affinity to the Sun as risen and source of life (666) as opposed to the Word/Adam Kadmon reconciled with Ruach Elohim/Spirit of God (326).

Nehustan said:

Ok here's a blanket statement, the ones who do not call on Mary as intercessor (and all the ones that do) call on Jesus/Jeheshuah/Isa as an intercessor (tho' there are some that think prophets will have the right of intercession on the day of resurrection), and beyond that they commit shirk by directly associating Jesus with Allah. If they were quite happy only to associate JHShVH with IHVH as a father it wouldn't be so bad (The word/Adam kadmon/IHVH), but to go beyond associating Jesus/Jeheshuah/Isa in a literal paternal association with Eloah/Allah is no doubt shirk, and the most major shirk there can be.

Click to expand...

Yes well, on the subject of shirk, you may not realize that you're kinda preaching to the choir when it comes to me.

Though in the church I was raised in, occasionally someone would pray to God "in Jesus' name." Would you consider that, in itself, shirk?

Also, you should see my Mom's church. I don't think you'd find anything to complain about in the decor. That denomination reacted STRONGLY to the RCC's use of images and went entirely in the other direction. It's very plain, and you won't find an image of anything other than a plain cross up front. I'm not sure how much more bare bones any Christians could get.

On the subject of beliefs, yes, they still have the Nicene Creed, which for me presents problems probably not unlike the ones you'd have with it.

We still go to that church when we're visiting my Mom. Hah, in fact a couple of years ago we nearly put on the Christmas program just within our non-Christian family. (There was still the organist and one other vocalist.) But when it comes to the point where the congregation recites the Nicene Creed, I've gone over it with the kids, and there are parts we're just going to quietly NOT say, because no way do we believe that, but we are guests there and would not want be rude or disrespectful either.

On the entire subject of intercession, I think there is some use for it in this sense. If God is transcendant, it can make Him seem too "out there" to make a connection. That's why God sends His Prophets. They are the "links" (or "intercessors") between us and God. If a Prophet says something, then it was God that said it, and we need to listen. Whether it's ever appropriate to pray to God "by way of" a Prophet, is, to my mind, an iffy case. It may help people make that connection. otoh, it can be abused too.

Since I've never been much for the intercession thing, I prefer to just leave it to greater minds than myself to work these things out.

I look forward to reading your thoughts on this topic.

A quick post as I have just woken up. I think that you are right about the prophets being intercessors in this world i.e. by the revealed word. That they act as vessels for the message of God as we are sometimes a little blind and oft' wayward. I do not however think that the reverse is true, as God certainly does not misunderstand us; in fact he probably knows our motivations better than we do ourselves. That the prophets on the day of judgement may be 'defence witnesses' well like they say, Allah Alim...

Nehustan said:

A quick post as I have just woken up. I think that you are right about the prophets being intercessors in this world i.e. by the revealed word. That they act as vessels for the message of God as we are sometimes a little blind and oft' wayward. I do not however think that the reverse is true, as God certainly does not misunderstand us; in fact he probably knows our motivations better than we do ourselves. That the prophets on the day of judgement may be 'defence witnesses' well like they say, Allah Alim...

Click to expand...

Thanks, Nehustan. I also believe that God doesn't misunderstand us, that and my early training as a Christian predisposes me not to pray to anyone else, or even in anyone else's name.

I was wondering still if you thought it was still shirk just to pray "in someone's name" as long as there's no confusion about who's getting prayed to. As I said, I can see the potential for confusion, but I'm not so sure its universal.

Well, since you just got up, I'm sure coffee is a higher priority.

Booko said:

I was wondering still if you thought it was still shirk just to pray "in someone's name" as long as there's no confusion about who's getting prayed to. As I said, I can see the potential for confusion, but I'm not so sure its universal.

Click to expand...

I do actually think that it is still shirk. This said as I was also raised a christian, I often find myself doing things because Jesus asked me to. Obviously he knew God in a way I am unlikely to, so I do things because I was instructed to by a prophet, who was instructed to tell me. I am thinking specifically about the Matthew 25 parable and following lesson/request (at least I think its Matthew 25, just checked, it is). "You clothed me, fed me, visted me" part, sheep and goats, companions of the right and companions of the left. I often try and assess my intention in doing action, and find that I do not really know why I do things. For Muslims an action to be acceptable by Allah must be done for Allah alone, as must worship. In fact charitable acts are certainly a form of worship. So I often find myself wondering if these actions will be acceptable on multiple counts, which sometimes includes thoughts on the Matthew 25 passage.

Nehustan said:

No not mocking Mary, but certainly alluding to your affinity to the Sun as risen and source of life (666) as opposed to the Word/Adam Kadmon reconciled with Ruach Elohim/Spirit of God (326).

Click to expand...

Our Beloved Holy Mother has chosen or has been chosen to display Her Image in conjunction with the rays of the sun... I never alluded to the Sun being the source of life. What the three sixes refer to I do not know. Why you have included them in this comment is beyond me. I do know that Our Beloved Holy Mother has revealed Herself to us for one purpose . That is to spread Her message of repentance and forgiveness... If that does not fit into the triple six mentality then it is not suppose to. Whether or not you agree just does not matter. She is Beautiful and Bright. Her warmth and kindness transcends beyond any earthly criticism. I will pray for you .Perhaps if you go to my profile and click on my homepage you will see for yourself. I wish you the best always. Thank You...

"A great sign appeared in the sky, a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars..."



Revelation 12:1

We only have to call God alone. For instance, the arabs who were worshipping idols before islam were acknowledging God but they were having some idols to make them reach to God quickly (as they thought).

God said in Quran about them:

[61] If indeed thou ask them who has created the heavens and the earth and subjected the sun and the moon (to His Law), they will certainly reply, "Allah." How are they then deluded away (from the truth)?

[62] Allah enlarges the sustenance (which He gives) to whichever of His servants He pleases: and He (similarly) grants by (strict) measure, (as He pleases): for Allah has full knowledge of all things.

[63] And if indeed thou ask them who it is that sends down rain from the sky, and gives life therewith to the earth after its death, they will certainly reply, "Allah!" Say: "Praise be to Allah!" But most of them understand not.

[64] What is the life of this world but amusement and play? But verily the Home in the Hereafter, that is life indeed, if they but knew.

[65] Now, if they embark on a boat, they call on Allah, making their devotion sincerely (and exclusively) to Him; but when He has delivered them safely to (dry) land, behold, they give a share (of their worship to others)!

[66] Disdaining ungratefully Our gifts, and giving themselves up to (worldly) enjoyment! But soon will they know.

[67] Do they not then see that We have made a Sanctuary secure, and that men are being snatched away from all around them. Then, do they believe in that which is vain, and reject the Grace of Allah!

[68] And who does more wrong than he who invents a lie against Allah or rejects the Truth when it reaches him? Is there not a home in Hell for those who reject Faith?

[69] And those who strive in Our (Cause), We will certainly guide them to Our Paths: for verily Allah is with those who do right. (Quran 29:61-69)

Therefore, the one who call any beside Allah so he fell in Shirk which is worse than Kufur itself.

[48] Allah forgiveth not that partners should be set up with Him; but He forgiveth anything else, to whom He pleaseth; to set up partners with Allah is to devise a sin most heinous indeed. (Quran 4:48)

Nehustan said:

I do actually think that it is still shirk. This said as I was also raised a christian, I often find myself doing things because Jesus asked me to. Obviously he knew God in a way I am unlikely to, so I do things because I was instructed to by a prophet, who was instructed to tell me. I am thinking specifically about the Matthew 25 parable and following lesson/request (at least I think its Matthew 25, just checked, it is). "You clothed me, fed me, visted me" part, sheep and goats, companions of the right and companions of the left. I often try and assess my intention in doing action, and find that I do not really know why I do things. For Muslims an action to be acceptable by Allah must be done for Allah alone, as must worship. In fact charitable acts are certainly a form of worship. So I often find myself wondering if these actions will be acceptable on multiple counts, which sometimes includes thoughts on the Matthew 25 passage.

Click to expand...

Thanks you for your thoughts on this. I find I can add nothing to them, as it sums up my views on the subject well.

I do hold out the possibility that it may not be shirk to pray to God "in Jesus' name" possibly, but frankly it's a chance I'd as soon not take. It isn't necessary, so why bother?

SunMessenger said:

"A great sign appeared in the sky, a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars..."
Rev. 12:1

Click to expand...

I took this as a reference to Islam, given its symbol is the sun and moon, and the crown of twelve stars matches the 12 Imams.

SunMessenger said:

Our Beloved Holy Mother has chosen or has been chosen to display Her Image in conjunction with the rays of the sun... I never alluded to the Sun being the source of life. What the three sixes refer to I do not know. Why you have included them in this comment is beyond me. I do know that Our Beloved Holy Mother has revealed Herself to us for one purpose . That is to spread Her message of repentance and forgiveness... If that does not fit into the triple six mentality then it is not suppose to. Whether or not you agree just does not matter. She is Beautiful and Bright. Her warmth and kindness transcends beyond any earthly criticism. I will pray for you .Perhaps if you go to my profile and click on my homepage you will see for yourself. I wish you the best always. Thank You...

"A great sign appeared in the sky, a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars..."



Revelation 12:1

Click to expand...

666 is considered to be the number of the sun, for reasons I could delineate, but I'll leave you to do some research after all its kinda fun, further than that it also corresponds to to the risen son/sun. Maybe if your nick and allusion is to the above verse you should include reference to the moon and stars too, as until this post it had all been the sun, in your name, and previous posts. A christian would surely use a star given the construction of Jesheshuah.

Nehustan said:

666 is considered to be the number of the sun, for reasons I could delineate, but I'll leave you to do some research after all its kinda fun, further than that it also corresponds to to the risen son/sun. Maybe if your nick and allusion is to the above verse you should include reference to the moon and stars too, as until this post it had all been the sun, in your name, and previous posts. A christian would surely use a star given the construction of Jesheshuah.

Click to expand...

I thank you for your information. It was quite informative. I may not be understanding it all however. I believe the Sun in a star for one and I apologize in advance but I can not allow myself any interest in investigating the three numbers that you included above. They have a negative connotation to me and I am not allowing any thing like that near my spirit. I do not mean to sound ignorant or arrogant but I have found that when I trust my inner conscience more Blessings come. Thank you again for your information.

SunMessenger said:

I thank you for your information. It was quite informative. I may not be understanding it all however. I believe the Sun in a star for one and I apologize in advance but I can not allow myself any interest in investigating the three numbers that you included above. They have a negative connotation to me and I am not allowing any thing like that near my spirit. I do not mean to sound ignorant or arrogant but I have found that when I trust my inner conscience more Blessings come. Thank you again for your information.

Click to expand...

You are of course right the star at the centre of our system is just that...stellar. However considering the sun at the centre of the system makes this system 'solar' and thus alludes to such rites as 'Sol Invictus' and of course 'Osiris' and/or 'Ra'. It is contested by some that Revelation (i.e. some Masons) contains a paradox, but I'm not sure I concur, although the sun is a star if one makes it analogous with the 'risen son/sun' then it is not one son/sun amongst 1000(000)s, but to quote the Nicean Creed 'the only son(sun) of God'. Of course Jeheshuah is the star/pentagram as has been delineated in other threads. Maybe you should call yourself 'StarMessenger' then you will remain a good distance away from the number you dislike, and will be as Jeheshuah.

Nehustan said:

You are of course right the star at the centre of our system is just that...stellar. However considering the sun at the centre of the system makes this system 'solar' and thus alludes to such rites as 'Sol Invictus' and of course 'Osiris' and/or 'Ra'. It is contested by some that Revelation (i.e. some Masons) contains a paradox, but I'm not sure I concur, although the sun is a star if one makes it analogous with the 'risen son/sun' then it is not one son/sun amongst 1000(000)s, but to quote the Nicean Creed 'the only son(sun) of God'. Of course Jeheshuah is the star/pentagram as has been delineated in other threads. Maybe you should call yourself 'StarMessenger' then you will remain a good distance away from the number you dislike, and will be as Jeheshuah.

Ruach Elohim
= 300 =

Click to expand...

I am not allowed to speak of the negative except request its abolition in prayer. I will now pray and hope you will derive an answer as to why our sun is in this name... Most Holy and Beloved Mother You have chosen to display to me in the brightest of light known to me. You have illuminated the darkness and filled it with the brightest light on earth. You have removed all shadows and given the evil thing no place to hide. It is not worthy to look upon the beauties and wonders of heaven. I pray that You protect us always from what is attempting to take over the hearts and minds of men. Oh Blessed Mother I love You so. I thank You for the brightness . I beg Gods forgiveness for all of the sins of man. I have followed Your message and forgiven all those who have wronged me. I encourage all others to do the same. Most Warm and Loving Mother touch the souls of man with your Immaculate Hands so that the Power Of The Holy Spirit will light the way to Heaven and destroy the heavy weight of evil upon these souls . I ask this with urgency as the Word You have given tells us the time is short. I beg as a child that The Holy Spirit descends upon us now so that we will feel the Consolation and help of Heaven. I Pray this for now and forever more. Amen


</IMG></IMG></IMG></IMG>

I think your last post eloquently puts the case at hand, and I present it as exhibit 'V'

I think you have forgotten precisely what the topic of this thread was, but it stands clearly that the Muslims (born and reverted) and the Quran do certainly not misunderstand Christianity. In fact the Christians who revert to Islam, may understand the Aegypto-Romano-Hellenic faith better than those who think they follow The Christ. The question tho' surely does arise...where did those people who call themself 'Christians' get their faith from, for it is certainly something that would not be recognised by Jeheshuah.