Is the holy spirit, God, or something else?

atpollard said:

I guess that you have Ingledsva on ignore.
He or she was talking smack about the Holy Spirit and I challenged the translation of the verse that was quoted.

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Okay thank you for explaining. Yes, I do have that poster on ignore.

atpollard said:

A beautiful strawman, but your translation still stands alone.

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Very funny! Here is the KJV translation -

Luk 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

And mine -

Luke 1:35 "And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Spirit shall come upon thee, and that power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God."

Note that they have the exact same meaning - the POWER of YHVH, - not a single being.

And I translated only one word differently. The to that. The word is "to" and can be - the - that - or this.

So try again.

*

atpollard said:

I guess that you have Ingledsva on ignore.
He or she was talking smack about the Holy Spirit and I challenged the translation of the verse that was quoted.

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How exactly is challenging a translation, - "talking smack about the Holy Spirit"?

Have you bothered to read the history?

There were followers of Jesus whom said he was a human, - not a part of a trinity God, - and they were silenced by the Nicene Councils!!!

The ONE GOD people were correct. The Pagan trinity in One people were wrong.

*

Ingledsva said:

How exactly is challenging a translation, - "talking smack about the Holy Spirit"?

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Challenging a translation was not how you were "talking smack about the Holy Spirit",
this is:

Have you bothered to read the history?
There were followers of Jesus whom said he was a human, - not a part of a trinity God, - and they were silenced by the Nicene Councils!!!
The ONE GOD people were correct. The Pagan trinity in One people were wrong.*

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Lots of people thought they knew more than the books (and letters) that eventually became The Bible ... they did not loose the argument by a small margin and they did not loose the argument by accident.

On a more practical note, I am a Calvinist and Katiemygirl is not.
You could drive a truck through the gap in some of our differences in opinions.
I have never needed to accuse Katiemygirl of embracing pagan beliefs and rejecting the true beliefs and Katiemygirl has never needed to make those accusations of me. We simply acknowledge what we agree upon and that there are things that we disagree about. It has always been a matter of respect ... an honest difference of opinion.

I am going to assume that you are JW (they tend to be tenacious when it comes to the non-deity of Christ and the non-person of the Holy Spirit). Obviously, I disagree ... it just hardly seems worth the effort of arguing over. Like the existence of God ... if you can't see it, then nothing that I might say will matter.
Before I came here, what I knew about the JW was based upon the handful of people who knocked at my door. We talked. They seemed nice enough. I instinctively mistrust anyone who needs a specific translation to find truth. I felt sorry for people who were working so hard to earn a salvation that Jesus died to give them at no personal cost. I simply disagree with their (your) view on both Jesus and the Holy Spirit. (and I do not want to buy a magazine ... any magazine).
That was, I freely admit, a very shallow and superficial view of who the JW are as a people, but it was based on the little personal experience that I had. One of the greatest surprises that I found here was that once you get past our insurmountable differences in view on who God is (Triune vs not), they (you) actually share a lot of the same beliefs that I do about things like sin and Christ's death and the nature of scripture. I have actually developed enormous respect for the JW and look forward to seeing some of you in heaven and telling you "I told you He was a triune being." (or I suppose that it is remotely possible that I will be the one wearing egg on his face ... but I don't think so ... I can defend my position from any translation except the JW bible).

My point is that the attitude conveyed by your posts is unnecessarily abrasive and off-putting. You are not doing the non-trinitarian case any favors by accusing everyone who disagrees with you with being the dupes of a Pagan Church.
Katiemygirl posted a long list of attributes and actions (like being grieved) that are not easily associated with an impersonal force. She included references for those phrases. You adressed none of them and went straight to calling us (those who disagree) idiots.

So good luck working out your own faith with fear and trembling, even as I continue to work out mine.
Arthur

atpollard said:

Challenging a translation was not how you were "talking smack about the Holy Spirit",
this is:

Ingledsva said:

Have you bothered to read the history?
There were followers of Jesus whom said he was a human, - not a part of a trinity God, - and they were silenced by the Nicene Councils!!!
The ONE GOD people were correct. The Pagan trinity in One people were wrong.

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Lots of people thought they knew more than the books (and letters) that eventually became The Bible ... they did not loose the argument by a small margin and they did not loose the argument by accident.

Arthur

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Let us try this again!

How is TRUTH - talking smack - about the Holy Spirit?

You having a different opinion, - does not make what I say - SMACK!!!!!!!!

PS. I am not a JW.

*

Ingledsva said:

PS. I am not a JW.

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I am glad to hear it. (for their sake)

atpollard said:

I am glad to hear it. (for their sake)

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I was raised Christian. After actually studying the Bible, - I came to the conclusion that it cannot be the word of God, because of all the crime and murder that YHVH supposedly tells them to do. War, Murder, Rape, slavery, genocide, etc.

I believe the Bible is just the writings of men - to allow them to do what they want to do, - own women - rape women - sex slave women, murder - etc.

*

atpollard said:

Challenging a translation was not how you were "talking smack about the Holy Spirit",
this is:

Lots of people thought they knew more than the books (and letters) that eventually became The Bible ... they did not loose the argument by a small margin and they did not loose the argument by accident.

On a more practical note, I am a Calvinist and Katiemygirl is not.
You could drive a truck through the gap in some of our differences in opinions.
I have never needed to accuse Katiemygirl of embracing pagan beliefs and rejecting the true beliefs and Katiemygirl has never needed to make those accusations of me. We simply acknowledge what we agree upon and that there are things that we disagree about. It has always been a matter of respect ... an honest difference of opinion.

I am going to assume that you are JW (they tend to be tenacious when it comes to the non-deity of Christ and the non-person of the Holy Spirit). Obviously, I disagree ... it just hardly seems worth the effort of arguing over. Like the existence of God ... if you can't see it, then nothing that I might say will matter.
Before I came here, what I knew about the JW was based upon the handful of people who knocked at my door. We talked. They seemed nice enough. I instinctively mistrust anyone who needs a specific translation to find truth. I felt sorry for people who were working so hard to earn a salvation that Jesus died to give them at no personal cost. I simply disagree with their (your) view on both Jesus and the Holy Spirit. (and I do not want to buy a magazine ... any magazine).
That was, I freely admit, a very shallow and superficial view of who the JW are as a people, but it was based on the little personal experience that I had. One of the greatest surprises that I found here was that once you get past our insurmountable differences in view on who God is (Triune vs not), they (you) actually share a lot of the same beliefs that I do about things like sin and Christ's death and the nature of scripture. I have actually developed enormous respect for the JW and look forward to seeing some of you in heaven and telling you "I told you He was a triune being." (or I suppose that it is remotely possible that I will be the one wearing egg on his face ... but I don't think so ... I can defend my position from any translation except the JW bible).

My point is that the attitude conveyed by your posts is unnecessarily abrasive and off-putting. You are not doing the non-trinitarian case any favors by accusing everyone who disagrees with you with being the dupes of a Pagan Church.
Katiemygirl posted a long list of attributes and actions (like being grieved) that are not easily associated with an impersonal force. She included references for those phrases. You adressed none of them and went straight to calling us (those who disagree) idiots.

So good luck working out your own faith with fear and trembling, even as I continue to work out mine.
Arthur

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Excellent Post!

There is so much more that we agree on than not, and I have never for a moment doubted the salvation of any calvinist.

As @moorea944, mentioned the use of the masculine personal pronoun in reference to 'the helper' is appropriate in the book of John, as helper is a masculine noun. But with spirit being a neuter noun, John switches to using the neuter pronoun 'it'.

Personification is not proof of personality. For example Paul personalized "sin" and "death" and "undeserved kindness" all as "kings" at Romans 5:14,17,21 and 6:12. Sin is also spoken of "finding an opportunity", 'working out covetousness', 'seducing' and 'killing'. Did Paul here mean that sin is a person?

There does seem to be a refinement though between this being a "power" verses a "force". Power (Heb. ko'ach; Gr., dy'na-mis) is basically the ability or capacity to act or do things. It does not need to be actively doing anything however. Force, on the other hand, describes energy that is projected and exerted. It is a pressure applied to a person or thing to effect change. That is why we are told not to 'grieve' the holy spirit, or resist it's effect. Nor are we to 'blaspheme', that is, to speak and/or act in determined opposition of the purpose it was sent out to accomplish. (Eph. 4:30; Mt 12:31,32).

Kolibri said:

As @moorea944, mentioned the use of the masculine personal pronoun in reference to 'the helper' is appropriate in the book of John, as helper is a masculine noun. But with spirit being a neuter noun, John switches to using the neuter pronoun 'it'.

Personification is not proof of personality. For example Paul personalized "sin" and "death" and "undeserved kindness" all as "kings" at Romans 5:14,17,21 and 6:12. Sin is also spoken of "finding an opportunity", 'working out covetousness', 'seducing' and 'killing'. Did Paul here mean that sin is a person?

There does seem to be a refinement though between this being a "power" verses a "force". Power (Heb. ko'ach; Gr., dy'na-mis) is basically the ability or capacity to act or do things. It does not need to be actively doing anything however. Force, on the other hand, describes energy that is projected and exerted. It is a pressure applied to a person or thing to effect change. That is why we are told not to 'grieve' the holy spirit, or resist it's effect. Nor are we to 'blaspheme', that is, to speak and/or act in determined opposition of the purpose it was sent out to accomplish. (Eph. 4:30; Mt 12:31,32).

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In order to establish whether the Holy Spirit is a person or not, we must define what constitutes a “person.”

1. A self-conscious or rational being (Oxford English Dictionary)

2. The composite of characteristics that make up an individual personality (American Heritage Dictionary)

3. a living self-conscious being as distinguished from an animal or thing (Webster’s Unabridged Dictionary)

The characteristics of being a person are sometimes said to be intellect (or mind), emotion, and will.

If the Holy Spirit can be shown in the Bible to be linked to these definitions, then we can conclude that He is a person and not a force.

There is overwhelming evidence for the personhood of the Holy Spirit. There are simply too many of these verses to explain away as “personifications.” By comparison, the number of times the Bible attributes the characteristics of inanimate objects to the Spirit is relatively few. I have included a list of verses at the end of this post.

If there were only a handful of personifications of the Spirit in the Bible, we might be persuaded by the WT arguments. But this is far from the case. There are, in fact, over 100 places in the Bible that personal characteristics are ascribed to the Holy Spirit. By contrast, Wisdom is personified in about a dozen places. Most occur in the books of Proverbs and Ecclesiastes, where we would expect to find poetic language like personification (the exceptions are Matthew 11: 19 and Luke 7:35 where Jesus refers to Wisdom as female). Love is personified about the same number of times in 1 Corinthians 13.

The Holy Spirit is a person. He has a mind, a will, and emotions; He is self-aware, rational, and reacts to and is distinguished from others.

A key text in understanding that the Holy Spirit is a person is John 14:16, where Jesus promises to send "another Advocate (or Comforter)" to His disciples. The word translated "Advocate" (paraklētos), means: "one called alongside to help." The only time it refers to someone other than the Holy Spirit in Scripture is in 1 John 2:1, where it refers to Jesus Christ.

This brings up a good question: What kind of a replacement for Jesus would an inanimate force be, particularly in light of John 14:26-28

1. The Holy Spirit leads people:

Matthew 4:1 (also Mark 1:12; Luke 4:11) - He led Jesus into the wilderness.

John 16:13 - He will guide us "into all the truth."

Acts 8:39 - He "caught Phillip away."

Romans 8:14 - He leads the children of God (cf. Gal 5:18).

2. The Holy Spirit speaks:

Mark 13:11 - "it is not you who speak, but the Holy Spirit" (also Matthew 10:19,20).

Acts 4:25 - He spoke "by the mouth of David."

Acts 8:29 - He speaks to Phillip.

Acts 11:12 - He told Peter to go with Cornelius' men.

1 John 4:2 - "Spirit of God" known by His confessing that "Christ has come in the flesh."

Revelation 2:7,11,7,29; 3:6,13,22 - "... let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches."

Revelation 22:17 - "The Spirit and the Bride say, ‘Come!’"

See also: John 16:13-14; Acts 13:2; 1 Timothy 4:1; Hebrews 3:7; Revelation 14:13; 22:17.

3. The Holy Spirit testifies / bears witness:

John 15:26 – “He will testify about Me.” - Jesus

Acts 20:23 – “the Holy Spirit solemnly testifies to me.” - Paul

Romans 8:16 – “The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit.”

1 John 5:7,8 – The Spirit testifies with water and blood.

4. The Holy Spirit teaches:

Exodus 31:2-4 – The Holy Spirit fills Bezalel with understanding, knowledge, and craftsmanship.

Nehemiah 9:20 – “You gave Your good Spirit to instruct them.”

Luke 12:12 – “The Holy Spirit will teach you in that very hour what to say.”

See also: John 14:26; 1 Corinthians 2:13.

5. The Holy Spirit helps us in many ways:

John 14:16,17,26; 16:7 - He dwells with us, teaches us, and comes to us.

Romans 8:26 - He "helps in our weaknesses" and "makes intercession for us."

Titus 3:5 - He renews us.

6. The Holy Spirit sanctifies us:

Romans 15:16 – Paul was sanctified by the Holy Spirit.

1 Corinthians 6:11 – The Holy Spirit washes, sanctifies, and justifies believers.

1 Peter 1:2 – “According to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Holy Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ by the sprinkling of His blood….” This verse is particularly significant in that two persons (the Father and Jesus) are mentioned alongside the Holy Spirit; it would be ridiculous to coordinate a force with two persons in this way (cf., Matthew 28:19).

7. The Holy Spirit has a mind and can reason:

Acts 15:28 - "it seemed good to us and the Holy Spirit.…" Notice how the mind of the Holy Spirit is linked to the minds of the Jerusalem elders.

Romans 8:27 - He has a mind. Compare to Romans 8:7 which has the same Greek word applied to the mind of man.

1 Corinthians 2:11 - He knows God's thoughts.

See also: Nehemiah 9:20; John 14:26, 16:13.

8. The Holy Spirit reveals things to us:

Luke 2:26 - He revealed to Simeon he would see the Christ.

John 16:13 - He will disclose to the apostles "things to come."

1 Corinthians 2:10 - God reveals things through the Holy Spirit "for the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God."

Ephesians 3:5 - He reveals the mystery of Christ.

1 Peter 1:11 - "Spirit of Christ" in the prophets "testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow."

9. The Holy Spirit performs works:

John 16:8-11 - He convicts.

Acts 2:4 - He gave the Apostles "utterance."

Acts 13:4 - He "sent out" Barnabas and Saul (cf. v.2).

Acts 16:6,7 - He forbids Paul and his companions to go to Asia.

Acts 20:28 - The Holy Spirit "has made you overseers."

1 Corinthians 12:8,9,11 - Gifts given through, by, and "as He wills."

1 Corinthians 12:11 - "the same Spirit works all these things."

1 Corinthians 12:13 - He baptizes us into Christ.

2 Corinthians 3:6 - "the Spirit gives life."

2 Corinthians 3:8 - Paul speaks of "the ministry of the Spirit."

Ephesians 3:16 - God strengthens us through His Spirit.

1 Timothy 3:16 - Christ "Justified in [by] the Spirit."

2 Timothy 1:14 - He helps us guard our faith.

1 Peter 3:18 - He makes us alive.

2 Peter 1:21 - He guided men to write Scripture/speak from God.

10. He has emotions:

Love: Romans 15:30

Grief: Ephesians 4:30

truth4u said:

If the disciples put faith in Jesus, and Jesus and the Holy Spirit are God, why had the disciples never even heard of the Holy Spirit; and, why did Paul asked them if the disciples were GIVEN Holy Spirit? What would happen when disciples received the Holy Spirit?

Acts 19:1-2Contemporary English Version (CEV)
Paul in Ephesus
19 While Apollos was in Corinth, Paul traveled across the hill country to Ephesus, where he met some of the Lord’s followers. 2 He asked them, “When you put your faith in Jesus, were you given the Holy Spirit?”
“No!” they answered. “We have never even heard of the Holy Spirit.”

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I believe a lot of people put their faith in Jesus in the sense of listening to His words and trying t live byt them. That is not the sme thing as receiving Jesus as Lord and Savior.

Bible Student said:

The holy spirit is God's active force.It is not God.

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I believe JW 's can say this until they are blue in the face but it isn't true now and never will be.

Bible Student said:

The Scriptures make clear that the holy spirit is a force that God uses to accomplish his will. When the angel Gabriel announced to Mary that she would have a son even though she was a virgin, the angel told her: “Holy spirit will come upon you, and power of the Most High will overshadow you. For that reason also what is born will be called holy, God’s Son.” (Luke 1:35) According to Gabriel’s words, there is a link between the holy spirit and the “power of the Most High.”

A similar idea appears elsewhere in the Bible. The prophet Micah said: “I myself have become full of power, with the spirit of Jehovah.” (Micah 3:8) Jesus promised his disciples: “You will receive power when the holy spirit arrives upon you.” (Acts 1:8) And the apostle Paul spoke of “the power of holy spirit.”—Romans 15:13, 19.


So, what may we conclude from the foregoing? There is a close connection between the holy spirit and the power of God. The holy spirit is the means by which Jehovah exerts his power. Put simply, the holy spirit is God’s applied power, or his active force. And what a force that is! We cannot comprehend the power needed to create the entire universe. Through the prophet Isaiah, Jehovah suggested that we reflect on the following: “Raise your eyes high up and see. Who has created these things? It is the One who is bringing forth the army of them even by number, all of whom he calls even by name. Due to the abundance of dynamic energy, he also being vigorous in power, not one of them is missing.”—Isaiah 40:26.


What Is the Holy Spirit? — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

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I believe a link does not mean that they are identical. I believe the Spirit of God has power but that it is only an attribute of God like His omniscience. One would not say God is an omniscience because that would ignore the fact that He is also powerful. I believe it is not justified to personify the attributes of God.

This conclusion does not follow from the premises.

Muffled said:

I believe JW 's can say this until they are blue in the face but it isn't true now and never will be.

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And if you read early church history, you will find that the ante nicene fathers believed and wrote that the Holy Spirit is a person. I will post some of their quotes later.

Muffled said:

I believe a link does not mean that they are identical. I believe the Spirit of God has power but that it is only an attribute of God like His omniscience. One would not say God is an omniscience because that would ignore the fact that He is also powerful. I believe it is not justified to personify the attributes of God.

This conclusion does not follow from the premises.

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WOW! You said that so well! Thank you!!!

Personification is not proof of personality. Here are a few instances where the holy spirit does not equate well with being a person. And it is not unusual for God’s Word to personify things that are not a person. These include wisdom, discernment, sin, death, and undeserved kindness. (Proverbs 8:1–9:6; Romans 5:14, 17, 21; 6:12) Jesus himself said that “wisdom is proved righteous by all its children,” or its good results. (Luke 7:35) Clearly, wisdom is not a person that has literal children! Likewise, the holy spirit is not a person simply because in some instances it is personified.

• When Mary, the mother of Jesus, visited her cousin Elizabeth, the Bible says that the unborn child in Elizabeth’s womb leaped, “and Elizabeth was filled with holy spirit.” (Luke 1:41) Is it reasonable that a person would be “filled” with another person?

• When John the Baptizer spoke to his disciples about Jesus as the one who would succeed him, John said: “I, for my part, baptize you with water . . . , but the one coming after me is stronger than I am, whose sandals I am not fit to take off. That one will baptize you people with holy spirit.” (Matthew 3:11) John could hardly have been referring to the holy spirit as a person when he spoke of baptizing people with it.

• While visiting a Roman army officer and his family, the apostle Peter spoke of Jesus as having been anointed by God “with holy spirit and power.” (Acts 10:38) Shortly afterward, “the holy spirit fell upon” the army officer’s household. The account says that many were amazed “because the free gift of the holy spirit was being poured out also upon people of the nations.” (Acts 10:44, 45) Here again, the terms used are inconsistent with the idea of the holy spirit being a person.

• At Acts 2:1-4, we read: “Now while the day of the Festival of Pentecost was in progress, they were all together at the same place. Suddenly there was a noise from heaven, just like that of a rushing, stiff breeze, and it filled the whole house where they were sitting. And tongues as if of fire became visible to them and were distributed, and one came to rest on each one of them, and they all became filled with holy spirit and started to speak in different languages, just as the spirit enabled them to speak.” At verse 17, the first part of the verse reads: “‘And in the last days,’ God says, ‘I will pour out some of my spirit on every sort of flesh.’” Does it make sense to think of the spirit as being a literal person if only a portion of it is to be poured out at a time? (Likewise at Numbers 11:17, Moses was told that some of the spirit would be removed and placed on others.)

• Holy Spirit is referenced, or listed often with impersonal things. Matthew 3:11 and Mark 1:8 contrasts holy spirit with both fire and water. It was to fill others along with such qualities of wisdom at faith at Act 6:3,5 and 11:24, or joy as mentioned at Act 13:52. It is sandwiched in between a number of qualities at 2 Corinthians 6:6 which reads: "by purity, by knowledge, by patience, by kindness, by holy spirit, by love free from hypocrisy".

• Even though spirit is 'bearing witness' at Act 5:32 and 20:23, the same thing is spoken of being done by water and blood at 1 John 5:6-8. While some texts refer to the spirit as ‘witnessing,’ ‘speaking,’ or ‘saying’ things, other texts make clear that it spoke through persons, having no personal voice of its own. (Compare Heb 3:7; 10:15-17; Ps 95:7; Jer 31:33, 34; Ac 19:2-6; 21:4; 28:25.)

The New Catholic Encyclopedia admits: “The majority of N[ew] T[estament] texts reveal God’s spirit as something, not someone; this is especially seen in the parallelism between the spirit and the power of God.” (1967, Vol. XIII, p. 575) It also reports: “The Apologists [Greek Christian writers of the second century] spoke too haltingly of the Spirit; with a measure of anticipation, one might say too impersonally.”—Vol. XIV, p. 296. What one chooses to believe is a personal matter. These scriptural references may provide those reading this thread a reason to make an informed choice of what to believe.

atpollard said:

One of the greatest surprises that I found here was that once you get past our insurmountable differences in view on who God is (Triune vs not), they (you) actually share a lot of the same beliefs that I do about things like sin and Christ's death and the nature of scripture. I have actually developed enormous respect for the JW and look forward to seeing some of you in heaven and telling you "I told you He was a triune being." (or I suppose that it is remotely possible that I will be the one wearing egg on his face ... but I don't think so ... I can defend my position from any translation except the JW bible).

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as a JW, I personally try to find common ground. I try very hard not to assume I know what a person believes with regards the trinity, hell etc.

As for translation, well the KJV, or ASV, JB, DRV, YLT or any other translation is just another version of the original is it not?
The new world translation is an excellent, and IMO the best translation as far as readability is concerned. But to try and find common ground, in nearly every post I have made, I have quoted from the kjv, ASV, and byington versions.

Just out of interest how do you explain Jesus relationship with God, and where does the Holy Spirit come into it?

.kaleb said:

as a JW, I personally try to find common ground. I try very hard not to assume I know what a person believes with regards the trinity, hell etc.

As for translation, well the KJV, or ASV, JB, DRV, YLT or any other translation is just another version of the original is it not?
The new world translation is an excellent, and IMO the best translation as far as readability is concerned. But to try and find common ground, in nearly every post I have made, I have quoted from the kjv, ASV, and byington versions.

Just out of interest how do you explain Jesus relationship with God, and where does the Holy Spirit come into it?

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When dealing with God ... some things are a mystery.
I do not say that as an excuse to avoid really thinking about it ... I say that because I have really spent the time thinking about it.
I have a mentor who pointed out that whatever position you take on the nature of God, if you are honest, study all of scripture (rather than just cherry pick verses) and examine the logical consequences of your conclusions ... you will eventually bump into a place that is either 'mystery' or 'faith' or both. Different people reach different conclusions, which places the 'mystery/faith' in a different place ... but all views appear to have some point of mystery/faith.

So, how do I explain Jesus relationship with God, and where does the Holy Spirit come into it?

• God is one ... He is completely clear on this point ... there is only one real God (who has many names in the Bible designed to reflect the breath of his character).
• Jesus of Nazareth was "fully human in every way" (Heb 2:17) and yet “before Abraham was born, I am!” (John 8:58) ... taking everything said about Jesus together as a whole, I am forced to accept the paradox that Jesus was fully man and fully God. The best 'preacher' explanation that I ever heard was that he was every bit as much a human as if he had never been God, and every bit as much God as if he had never been human. In my opinion, the effort to reinterpret either the humanity of Christ or His Deity does too great a violence to the body of scripture about him ... here is a 'God mystery'.
• Once I accepted that God the Father and Jesus Christ are both fully God (eternal, worshiped, possessing divine power) and distinct persons ... I am dragged kicking and screaming into the conflict of one God and two persons both claiming that THEY have the right to that title ... Father and Son is the closest human relationship they have to explain their relationship ... both claim that relationship ... it is clearly not a perfect explanation of a "Godhead" (we need a new word to describe this new reality) ... thus we have another piece of the "God mystery".
• Taking everything said in scripture about the Holy Spirit together as a whole, there are many passages that describe the power and attributes of the Holy Spirit that can legitimately be interpreted as both fully equal to God in power, and either a distinct person or an impersonal force. Person or force, the power and attributes indicate a direct relationship with the "Father-Son Godhead" that cannot be questioned ... if only a force, it is clearly God's force and not some lesser force. Then there is also a vast body of scripture that ascribes attributes to the Holy Spirit that are not easily ascribed to an impersonal force ... gravity is not 'grieved', but the Holy spirit is. There is too great a body of scripture for the personhood of the Holy Spirit to dismiss all of it ... again dismissing all of the evidence for the person of the Holy Spirit does too great a violence to the whole of scripture for me to accept.
• The simplest explanation (which, being a 'God mystery', is by no means 'simple') is that the Godhead (one divine being) exists not in a dual (Father-Son) personhood, but in a triune (Fater-Son-Spirit) personhood.

How can this be?
Sure wish that I knew.
I wish that I could understand all of it and, even more, that I could explain it in a way that many people could understand it.
That's just how I am wired ... to want to understand the complex and express it in small words and simple imagery.
Unfortunately, I can't explain it.
I can just read scripture, connect the dots and acknowledge the picture that connecting the dots reveals.

I have some clues or hints ... are you familiar with atoms and molecules and chemistry?
As the grandson of a former Chief Production Chemist at Union Carbide, and the son of a retired Research Chemist, I was conversant in basic chemistry before kindergarten.
There is a concept called 'Resonance'.
Look at a Carbonate ion:

notice the double lines that represent the fourth electron bond ... each C-O has at least one bond and one of them (C=O) has two bonds.
Any ONE of the pairs can have the double bond at any given moment and the double bond can move from one "O" to another, but at any moment, ONLY one of the pairs can have the double bond.
When you measure the bond strength, you would expect one of the "O" legs to have 2 bonds and the other legs to have 1 bond.
When you actually do measure the bond strength, each leg measures exactly 1.333333 bonds.
One third of an electron pair is an impossibility ... at the same time, the double bond exists in all three legs and in none of the legs.

There is only one substance ... a Carbonate Ion ... all three possible forms are still the exact same one Carbonate Ion.
Each of the forms (presented in the picture above) is a distinct form ... there are three distinct Oxygen atoms and only one of them can have the actual double bond.
Yet when we actually measure for the bond ... all three forms exist simultaneously in the one atom.

Does this mean that God is like an Carbonate Ion?
No.
It just means that even nature (chemistry) recognizes the truth that even an Ion can be three distinct somethings that are all part of the same one unique something.
Is the true nature of the real God less incomprehensible to a human mind than an Ion?

God = One 'Godhead' = three 'persons' ... a God mystery.

atpollard said:

When dealing with God ... some things are a mystery.
I do not say that as an excuse to avoid really thinking about it ... I say that because I have really spent the time thinking about it.
I have a mentor who pointed out that whatever position you take on the nature of God, if you are honest, study all of scripture (rather than just cherry pick verses) and examine the logical consequences of your conclusions ... you will eventually bump into a place that is either 'mystery' or 'faith' or both. Different people reach different conclusions, which places the 'mystery/faith' in a different place ... but all views appear to have some point of mystery/faith.

So, how do I explain Jesus relationship with God, and where does the Holy Spirit come into it?

• God is one ... He is completely clear on this point ... there is only one real God (who has many names in the Bible designed to reflect the breath of his character).
• Jesus of Nazareth was "fully human human in every way" (Heb 2:17) and yet “before Abraham was born, I am!” (John 8:58) ... taking everything said about Jesus together as a whole, I am forced to accept the paradox that Jesus was fully man and fully God. The best 'preacher' explanation that I ever heard was that he was every bit as much a human as if he had never been God, and every bit as much God as if he had never been human. In my opinion, the effort to reinterpret either the humanity of Christ or His Deity does too great a violence to the body of scripture about him ... here is a 'God mystery'.
• Once I accepted that God the Father and Jesus Christ are both fully God (eternal, worshiped, possessing divine power) and distinct persons ... I am dragged kicking and screaming into the conflict of one God and two persons both claiming that THEY have the right to that title ... Father and Son is the closest human relationship they have to explain their relationship ... both claim that relationship ... it is clearly not a perfect explanation of a "Godhead" (we need a new word to describe this new reality) ... thus we have another piece of the "God mystery".
• Taking everything said in scripture about the Holy Spirit together as a whole, there are many passages that describe the power and attributes of the Holy Spirit that can legitimately be interpreted as both fully equal to God in power, and either a distinct person or an impersonal force. Person or force, the power and attributes indicate a direct relationship with the "Father-Son Godhead" that cannot be questioned ... if only a force, it is clearly God's force and not some lesser force. Then there is also a vast body of scripture that ascribes attributes to the Holy Spirit that are not easily ascribed to an impersonal force ... gravity is not 'grieved', but the Holy spirit is. There is too great a body of scripture for the personhood of the Holy Spirit to dismiss all of it ... again dismissing all of the evidence for the person of the Holy Spirit does too great a violence to the whole of scripture for me to accept.
• The simplest explanation (which, being a 'God mystery', is by no means 'simple') is that the Godhead (one divine being) exists not in a dual (Father-Son) personhood, but in a triune (Fater-Son-Spirit) personhood.

How can this be?
Sure wish that I knew.
I wish that I could understand all of it and, even more, that I could explain it in a way that many people could understand it.
That's just how I am wired ... to want to understand the complex and express it in small words and simple imagery.
Unfortunately, I can't explain it.
I can just read scripture, connect the dots and acknowledge the picture that connecting the dots reveals.

I have some clues or hints ... are you familiar with atoms and molecules and chemistry?
As the grandson of a former Chief Production Chemist at Union Carbide, and the son of a retired Research Chemist, I was conversant in basic chemistry before kindergarten.
There is a concept called 'Resonance'.
Look at a Carbonate ion:

notice the double lines that represent the fourth electron bond ... each C-O has at least one bond and one of them (C=O) has two bonds.
Any ONE of the pairs can have the double bond at any given moment and the double bond can move from one "O" to another, but at any moment, ONLY one of the pairs can have the double bond.
When you measure the bond strength, you would expect one of the "O" legs to have 2 bonds and the other legs to have 1 bond.
When you actually do measure the bond strength, each leg measures exactly 1.333333 bonds.
One third of an electron pair is an impossibility ... at the same time, the double bond exists in all three legs and in none of the legs.

There is only one substance ... a Carbonate Ion ... all three possible forms are still the exact same one Carbonate Ion.
Each of the forms (presented in the picture above) is a distinct form ... there are three distinct Oxygen atoms and only one of them can have the actual double bond.
Yet when we actually measure for the bond ... all three forms exist simultaneously in the one atom.

Does this mean that God is like an Carbonate Ion?
No.
It just means that even nature (chemistry) recognizes the truth that even an Ion can be three distinct somethings that are all part of the same one unique something.
Is the true nature of the real God less incomprehensible to a human mind than an Ion?

God = One 'Godhead' = three 'persons' ... a God mystery.

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WOW! What an excellent post! Arthur, I like the way you present your views, never really insisting yours is the only true one, and allowing wiggle room for others.

Thanks for the chemistry lesson. I took chemistry in college when I was working on my teaching degree. I've forgotten most of what I learned, but I understood your little pictures and explanation. I believe we see applications of the three persons in one throughout nature. I've seen some good examples of it, but yours is really good. Thank you for sharing. I look forward to reading more of your posts (even though you are a calvinist LOL).

God = One 'Godhead' = three 'persons' ... a God mystery.

Click to expand...

It's sad that we have to bring the "world" into our way of thinking about our God. But I guess some of us have to do that to make a point.
One Godhead, yes. 1 Cor 11 "But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God."
There is your real Godhead right there. "Three persons"? Not at all! God a mystery? Nope, not at all. Col 1 "Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:" My God is not a mystery to me at all. He is one. All through the bible it is the "oneness" of God. Here O Israel the Lord our God is one!! We dont know everything about God, but what He has put into the bible, He has made it totally clear on who He is. He is the Father of all, even Jesus. His son.