''Lukewarm'' -- what do you think Jesus meant?

Not sure if I'm posting this in the appropriate section, but wanted to see what your views are on a passage I've thought about, even when I practiced Christianity.

Revelation 3:16 - New International Version
So, because you are lukewarm--neither hot nor cold--I am about to spit you out of my mouth.

Now, I had always 'interpreted' this passage to mean that a follower of Christ should be either completely committed to the faith or not, thus hot or cold. It's better to be hot or cold, than moderate with one's faith. In some ways, I thought Jesus was giving a pass to atheists, that somehow he would be more forgiving of their supposed ignorance than that of moderate believers. I no longer follow any religion, but I still wonder about the meaning and relevance behind this special passage.

I discovered this particular viewpoint (below link), and thought it would make for a good discussion. I'm not here to spar with believers on this (I come in peace ), but would like to see your understanding of the passage, in general.

So...are YOU a remarkable Christian? Do you think this passage has relevance in today's world? If so, how so? Look forward to what you all have to say about it.

IVP - Andy Unedited - A Lukewarm Interpretation of Hot and Cold: Revelation 3:15-16

That's an interesting question, Dee.

Aside from the cold water observation, I don't actually see the difference between what the author of the article is saying and what is traditionally taught about the letter to the church in Laodicia. The verses point out the wealth and self-sufficiency of the people there and their blindness to their need of spiritual wealth. But, as you point out in the OP, the interesting question raised is whether or not it implies that God prefers complete lack of devotion to moderate devotion from self-reliant, well-to-do believers.

Since the author did not include a letter to Colossae, where the water is said to have been cold, or Hierapolis, from whence the hot water came, it does not strike much of a chord with me to suggest that he was implying that he wished that they were like the churches in either of those two cities. Do we have any record of how vibrant the churches in those cities were? The book cited may or may not have included information and sources on that, but the article does not.

It still seems clear to me that the context implies that a sinful, back-slidden church is better than a stuffy, self-righteous church. This also agrees with my perspective on Jesus' frequent condemnation of pharisees in the gospel accounts.

I am actually sort of at odds with the author of the blog's conclusion about the verses. I think that if you really love God what you do will reflect your theology. Now at the same time, works are important but they do not make a person right before God. But notice, everything a Christian does is driven by a love for God. The reason why I do the things I do is to show people that God came as a man and "learned obedience through what he suffered" (Hebrews 5:8) because of love. Just think about Jesus' sacrifice and how that taught him obedience. With that kind of attitude I should be willing to obey as well.

''Lukewarm'' -- what do you think Jesus meant?

People who are dull and unmotivated spiritually.

Good points! In addition....

Rev 3:16 is followed by 3:17 "You say, ‘I am rich; I have acquired wealth and do not need a thing.’ But you do not realize that you are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind and naked." These two verses really are one verse. It alludes to all those verses in Deuteronomy (in particular the Song of Moses in Deuteronomy 31) that talk about the cycle that the Jewish people go through where they get wealthy and happy and then they start living carelessly. Moses predicts their society will occasionally take a dive as they regress into barbarism, then people wake up and want to fix everything and start struggling to get back on their feet. These references are written as predictions that Israel will fall away and then return in cycles, and the author of Revelation is doing the same thing or is alluding to this cycle or borrowing the idea.

So in Revelation there is a parallel idea to the idea in Deuteronomy 31, where you have a church that is sometimes vital and sometimes lazy, and there is the ever present threat that the lampstand will be taken away. (see Revelation 2:5). The 'Lampstand' in Revelation alludes to the 7-branched lamp-stand of solid gold, hammered from one piece, which originally stood in the tabernacle and in the temple of the Jews. Having your 'Lampstand' taken away is a very obvious reference to the times that the Temple was overrun. Each time the invaders carried away that solid gold lamp-stand. That lamp is apparently gone forever, but according to the song of Moses there will be another one someday (or the same one?). For the churches to have 'Seven golden lampstands' that can be taken away, that is a very strong allusion to the Jewish lampstand and the concept of a cycle of back and forth.

edit: So this Rev 3:17 that talks about people thinking they're wealthy and don't need anything, this is like saying "Woah, now you're just like in the stories where the Jews are happy and content in the land and wealthy and turn away from the LORD" so its like a warning.

Revelation was written by John, supposedly, not Jesus.

Lyndon said:

Revelation was written by John, supposedly, not Jesus.

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Yes that's true, and the funny thing is that its not even Johns style of writing, I believe that it was a book written about the fall of the Roman Empire.

oh its bigger than the roman empire

cataway said:

oh its bigger than the roman empire

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It can be as big as you want it to be.

if its up to me you don't stand a chance

cataway said:

if its up to me you don't stand a chance

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Well good luck with that.

it goes all the way into the toes

cataway said:

it goes all the way into the toes

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Does it warm the toes lol.

Deidre said:

Not sure if I'm posting this in the appropriate section, but wanted to see what your views are on a passage I've thought about, even when I practiced Christianity.

Revelation 3:16 - New International Version
So, because you are lukewarm--neither hot nor cold--I am about to spit you out of my mouth.

Now, I had always 'interpreted' this passage to mean that a follower of Christ should be either completely committed to the faith or not, thus hot or cold. It's better to be hot or cold, than moderate with one's faith. In some ways, I thought Jesus was giving a pass to atheists, that somehow he would be more forgiving of their supposed ignorance than that of moderate believers. I no longer follow any religion, but I still wonder about the meaning and relevance behind this special passage.

I discovered this particular viewpoint (below link), and thought it would make for a good discussion. I'm not here to spar with believers on this (I come in peace ), but would like to see your understanding of the passage, in general.

So...are YOU a remarkable Christian? Do you think this passage has relevance in today's world? If so, how so? Look forward to what you all have to say about it.

IVP - Andy Unedited - A Lukewarm Interpretation of Hot and Cold: Revelation 3:15-16

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He was speaking about the tendency of 'flip-flopping' in discussion.

He was a Man of decisive mind.
He frowned on those who were of shallow commitment.

perhaps you have noticed a 'wishy-washy' style of discussion here at the forum?

it does mine , and fills my hart with joy........ because I know .but you are only guessing

Thief said:

He was speaking of the tendency of 'flip-flopping' in discussion.

He was a Man of decisive mind.
He frowned on those who were of shallow commitment.

perhaps you have noticed a 'wishy-washy' style of discussion here at the forum?

Click to expand...

Bingo...you win the internet.

I happen to think that there are so many 'denominations' as a response to what many dislike about the harsh words of Jesus. Should Jesus have existed, I don't think his words were all that difficult to understand, but many people simply don't like what he had to say about 'sin' and so on. His words weren't hard to understand, but they were/are hard to follow.

And so...In walks a variety of ways one can 'interpret' Scripture, and yet...everyone is labeled a follower of Jesus.

It's irrelevant to me at this point as I no longer follow Christianity or religion, but your post is poignant. Well said.

Deidre said:

Not sure if I'm posting this in the appropriate section, but wanted to see what your views are on a passage I've thought about, even when I practiced Christianity.

Revelation 3:16 - New International Version
So, because you are lukewarm--neither hot nor cold--I am about to spit you out of my mouth.

Now, I had always 'interpreted' this passage to mean that a follower of Christ should be either completely committed to the faith or not, thus hot or cold. It's better to be hot or cold, than moderate with one's faith. In some ways, I thought Jesus was giving a pass to atheists, that somehow he would be more forgiving of their supposed ignorance than that of moderate believers. I no longer follow any religion, but I still wonder about the meaning and relevance behind this special passage.

I discovered this particular viewpoint (below link), and thought it would make for a good discussion. I'm not here to spar with believers on this (I come in peace ), but would like to see your understanding of the passage, in general.

So...are YOU a remarkable Christian? Do you think this passage has relevance in today's world? If so, how so? Look forward to what you all have to say about it.

IVP - Andy Unedited - A Lukewarm Interpretation of Hot and Cold: Revelation 3:15-16

Click to expand...

First of all, Jesus was dead long before St. John wrote this for our Creator and His Word that St. John was testifying to. All God's true saints and most of His prophets testified to the Word of God and were killed for doing so. Here's what it says in Revelation about the saints and prophets who testified to His Word;

Rev. 6
9: When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne; 10: they cried out with a loud voice, "O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before thou wilt judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell upon the earth?" 11: Then they were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been.

As you can see, there would be more saints testifying to the Word of God and killed after Revelation was written.

Here's what St. Paul wrote about God's saints;

Ephesians 1
1: Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, To the saints who are also faithful in Christ Jesus:
2: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
3: Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4: even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him.
5: He destined us in love to be his sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,
9: For he has made known to us in all wisdom and insight the mystery of his will, according to his purpose which he set forth in Christ
10: as a plan for the fulness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.

I think Pete Rollins painted a good picture of what a god who created this world would think of those who loved this creation vs those who lived for an unknown beyond this life.

Look at the city the congregation was found in. Laodicea had no water supply of it's own to speak of, but was supplied via an aqueduct. By the time the literal water got to them it would be lukewarm, so the metaphor would have real meaning to them personally. Contrasting lukewarm to "hot" and "cold" we can know what was meant.

"hot"

"For I know your willingness about which I am boasting to the Macedonians, that Achaia has been ready for a year, and your zeal has stirred up the majority of them." - 2 Cor 9:2

"cold"

Just like the coldness of snow on the day of harvest
Is a faithful messenger to those who sent him,
For he refreshes his master.
- Proverbs 25:13

The Laodician congregation had become like their literal water. Neither simulatingly warm, nor refreshingly cold. Something had to be done to restore them to usefulness. As the following verses showed, they needed to be informed that they were not seeing themselves very clearly. Indifference had infected them.